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Chevelle Certification Program

27K views 163 replies 46 participants last post by  langss 
#1 ·
I would like to offer some observations about the state of our collector Chevelle industry and the certification of those Chevelles. I consider myself only an amateur collector and by no means enjoy any kind of professional career in the collector car industry. However, I do own a nice Chevelle that I’d like to see continue to appreciate in value, despite the current state of the economy.
I attended the Maryland Chevelle Club’s 22nd Annual Mid-Atlantic Chevelle Show in North East Maryland this past weekend and I had the privilege of hearing Chuck Hanson speak at an informal forum during the show Sunday afternoon. Chuck began by asking what the members believed the state of the Chevelle market is. Suffice it to say that no one was enthused. Some complained that Chevelles were generally second cousins to Corvettes and Camaros.
Some pointed out that very high quality cars still bring big bucks and that dealer special edition cars or particularly rare and desirable option packages are still garnering top dollar. Comparatively, normal though desirable, Chevelles are dropping in value to a point that is concerning; even very good solid cars, both originals and quality restored cars are not appreciating as the “cousins” are doing.
What to do and who to blame?? Low quality reproduction parts manufacturers? Unscrupulous creators of clones sold as real cars? High volume availability of the marque? Misunderstanding by the youth market??
How about all of the above, along with plain old less desirability through lack of differentiation?? The LS-6’s, COPO 427’s, Yenko Editions and other such exotic models that are unreachable, have carried the Chevelle market almost exclusively. These cars are desirable because they are rare, low volume, high performance machines proven by fleeting historic accomplishments. These cars were based on the very same machines your parents could buy at the local dealership for daily family needs. And that’s just it! These cars are so easily cloned that good quality examples are parlayed as real; even poor quality clones are pawned-off on unknowledgeable buyers for what they think are a “steal”. Who’s stealing from whom?
Have you heard that there are more LS-6’s registered today than the factory ever produced? Well, my contention is that this very same cloning is taking place with somewhat lesser cars on a much wider scale and with much more abandon on many more innocent buyers than we could know. More and more “real” Big Block SS Chevelles are showing up all the time.
Without any research whatsoever to support my theory, I suspect these altered cars are flooding the market with “desirable” vehicles, many more than are actually surviving cars constructed by the factory. With no industry oversight authority dedicated to certifying honest Chevelles, every car could become something special. The rules of supply and demand dictate that this floods the market and reduces overall prices. If real cars are documented as real, and less desirable examples are made to show their real colors, there will become a differentiation that will bolster the value of optioned cars and pull the value of lesser cars higher.
Now this is the key: If every 283-three-speed car becomes a 396, 4-Speed car, the 283 car that the regular guy with a regular budget can afford no longer exists while the newly created clone 396 car is ultimately sold at a lower price than a real big block car would demand. Some schmuck believes he just purchased a real 396 4-speed car for a steal-of-a-deal! Will anyone notice or even care that suddenly there are no more 6-cylinder Chevelles??
Certification and official documentation of Chevelles by recognized industry experts similar to other industry marques will help. While this doesn’t necessarily speak to the regular guy with a regular budget, it does prevent the marque from becoming so diluted with fakes that the entire market collapses through lack of trust and ultimately desireability. Besides, the high cost of entry preserves the exclusiveness of the marque and thus preserves overall value.
The regular budget guy will eventually trade up if his desire is genuine. And of course, there will always be a market for documented 6-cylinder cars converted to 396 cars; these will be sold at a fair market price for the regular guy to enjoy on his regular budget.

Let’s get this certification program going – and going fast!
 
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#2 ·
OK, lets say we want to do this. Who is the expert that does this? What are we going to certify? A very good clone will be hard or impossible to detect. Where would that put my NOM 70 SS396?
I dont understand the need for this. Buy a car for what it is and what you see. If you think its a clone it probably is. If the average guy buys a car not knowing if it is real he probably wouldnt know to check for a "certification".
Ron
 
#3 ·
Any thing would be better than what it is now, one would think but as mentioned I think it would be a hard thing to get started. I would hope not.

I more amazed to see a gold member as a first time post:confused: of 1:confused: with a Join date of Feb 2002.
Ok I know it took you 7.5 years to learn how to type and use the sitel:)

Am I missing something? Besides my brain:D

Any ways welcome back to the site....:thumbsup:
 
#5 ·
Welcome to the board Rick :waving: I commend you on your Gold Membership and such a well thought out first post. This will indeed garner lots of interest and comments, as any similar post has in the past. Your suggestion is somewhat different then a lot of these previously, that being you are searching for "pedigree" certification and not "concours" judging quality. Is this assumption correct?

I would definitely be in support of such a program. Yes, the Corvette dudes have it. Jerry McNeish does a lot of confirmations on Camaros. Our Pontiac brothers have PHS Services. I don't relly know what the Buick and Oldsmobile owners have. Ford has some special guy's report (can't think of his name off hand). Mopars have the Govier (spelling?) report. All of these certainly lend creedence to the car, at least in my opinion.

Yes, it all comes down to WHO will do it. There are a couple of guys who definitely fit the bill for this OR for certain years. They are already members of this site. How would it be done? Where would it be done? How will the expenses be covered for the certifier? Definitely a lot of questions to be answered and details to work out.

I'll refer to my car as a good example. There is no documentation on hand and it has a replacement block. I have good owner history confirming it started life as an SS. Mine is also a 300 Deluxe which is very difficult to clone as an SS (there is a short list of 300 Deluxe experts who are familiar with what I am saying). Now, at some future time when I decide to sell the car and it has "The John Smith Chevelle Certification", then that would certainly give it some credibility. I gather this is the concept you are trying to get off the ground.

I'm not saying I would want or need such a certificate, but it certainly is a worthwhile venture to consider. We must keep in mind that such a program would likely take years to build up its credibility in the marketplace, but all these things have to start somewhere.

Again, it likely comes down to this - who, where, when and how much?

Good luck and if I can help further, or provide some possible input, I would be glad to.
 
#6 ·
On the surface, it sounds like a good idea Rick but I don't think any such program is really conceivable myself.
There are just way too many things that would never work.

Who would be qualified to do such a thing and who would be ever be willing to have there car judged to be certified, just to name a couple.

I don't think anyone IS qualified to certify all years and models so it would take a panel of probably 25 well versed folks.
Where would the panel meet and how far would people be willing to take their car to have it judged and at what cost?

And another thing is there would be so many arguments and fights with folks who wouldn't agree with the findings about their cars that a lot of friends would most likely become enemies.

Also, there are a lot of Chevelle owners that couldn't care less, they just want a race car or hot rod.

It seems to me that all it would do is create yet another "us vs. them" atmosphere among us.

Good luck, but I will pass.
 
#7 ·
Well, we're the experts. Not individually, but collectively. Chevelle guys through the likes of Team Chevelle. Insults aside, I didn't have much to say until I heard Chuck lament and I thought about it a little more as it struck home. He's right you know, even allowing for the bad economy, average prices of Chevelles are dropping faster than some other marques. Where's the end? I don't want to sound like all doom and gloom but it seems something needs to happen in an effort just to maintain the Chevelle market let alone expand it.
It aint gonna be easy, I believe some Chevelle people have been trying for quite awhile now. I don't know who or how but I endorse the idea of a certification program. This will help the average buyer know what a car is and have a higher level of confidence without hours of his own research. It seems the average car show attendee understands there's something special about PHS Pontiacs and Bloomington Corvettes. It helps keep their cars honest and the resulting value of the group is stronger because of it.
 
#8 ·
I for one am glad to see prices dropping. The top quality cars will still hold their value but its good to see average or below averag cars selling for reasonable prices again.
Maybe there will be some good to come out of this but I really cant see it for most cars.
Who is qualified to do it? Us collectively yes, but thats not feasible to actually do.
 
#9 ·
Thanks, Don for your kind words. You're right, I'm thinking just start with simple pedigree documentation that is endorsed by some kind of recognized authority. Let things grow from there. How did the other guys you mentioned do it? Anyone know??
 
#13 ·
Thanks, Don for your kind words. You're right, I'm thinking just start with simple pedigree documentation that is endorsed by some kind of recognized authority. Let things grow from there. How did the other guys you mentioned do it? Anyone know??
As others have stated, it's a nice idea but it would be very hard to impliment for several reasons. There are several guys who frequent TC that are considered by many here, the leading experts on '70 Chevelles. I can't speak for them directly, but in talking to them, I know they want no part of flying around the country writing "Certifications" on cars for large sums of money. On the other hand, they are available to inspect and offer an opinion on any car being considered for purchase. So the first problem is, without factory documentation to back up any report, who are we going to crown the official "Chevelle Guru" to fly around certifying these cars? As far as the values of these cars go, much like any other commodity in the economy, they rise and fall just like everything else. The cars that appear to have dropped most in value are the poorly restored and cobbled together cars that wouldn't or couldn't be Certified in the first place. The well done, numbers matching cars with paperwork seem to be holding there own value wise, that's because these cars are very expensive to restore to this degree and that fact is recognized in the industry. Mecum just had a very successfull auction and I believe the prices of the cars sold have reflected this. I haven't seen any true 6 figure cars being sold for 40K and I haven't seen any true 70/80K cars being sold for 30K. The market has corrected itself IMO and buyers are no longer overpaying for cobbled together cars. Even the very well done clones and this subject has been beaten to death here, are worth more than original cars that need a 40/50K resto. I think each car just needs to stand on its' own merit and be looked at for what it is or isn't. There's plenty of help available in the Chevelle community when considering the purchase of a car and I personally don't see a piece of paper "Certifying" the car, as increasing the cars' value. I believe they've had problems in this area on some high end cars on other sites like TC and without absolute honesty and integrity it could happen again. There are probably just as many faked and restamped cars as there are originals. So it's up to the buyer to spend hours researching the car whether he likes it or not and if he doesn't know what he's looking at, hire an expert, it's money well spent! There are many here who specialize in certain year Chevelles and their help is readily available but I don't think they want any part of a Chevelle Police Dept., just my .02 on it.
 
#10 ·
While in theory the idea floats somewhat, in real practice there is no way it won't/can't fall short.
The fact that chevelle values went through the roof in the first place can be linked back to the speed channel and its coverage of Barrett Jackson. It created a false price level for pretty much all cars from the muscle car era.
There are 2 types of car people, collectors and hobbiests. Collectors bring their cars to shows (if they come) in trailers or they sit in a museum somewhere changing hands from time to time between other collectors, hobbiests may do that or they may drive them.
The idea here from what I can see it to try to establish a reason to keep car prices at a certain level. Thing is these cars are being bought by a certain generation, people that grew up with these cars and idolized the days of big horsepower and/or great car designs. That market has a cap, when everyone that wants one has owned one there won't be buyers left, kids today, for the most part ,do not care about these antiquated big heavy cars, they identify with the cars of their day, the imports etc. Other than museum pieces the bottom line is at some point the cars will have much less value. Nothing you do can change that.
What makes a car worth a given price? Is it originality, is it "matching numbers" is it a big engine? For me it is what ever YOU want and are willing to pay for it, having some paper saying it is this or that won't make me change my mind what I am willing to pay. For me the whole matching numbers thing is a big drain on the hobby. Ask anyone if they had any idea back in the day the numbers matched, I bet 90% of people never even knew that, I know I didn't and I owned a bunch of them back in th day. Engine went bad you tossed it out and picked up a new one that was in better shape.
There are a few cars that deserve their high values, cars like Z16 65 chevelles for instance, cars that were documented to be built in small numbers. 201 is rare, 8000 is not. there were over 200,000 1970 2 door malibus built, everyone of which is a candidate to be cloned, and if a person knows what they are doing they can clone it so you I or anyone else here cannot tell. Afterall it was nothing more than an option, of course it is different with models 1968 and before, much harder to cheat on them, but it is still done.
Then lastly what makes a car worthy of this certification? would it have to have the original sheet metal, paint,interior, what?? What about re-bodied cars? are they what they say they are, I could go on but I think I made my point. It just could never happen without factory records to back it up and we all know those do not exist, except in Canada.
 
#11 ·
Similar to what I believe depley is saying, it's a good thought but near impossible to accomplish even by the most knowledgeable Chevelle experts. With most '69 up SS's with NOM and no docs (excluding a few such as the '69 72 and 76 paint codes and '72 454 VINs) IMO it would be almost if not totally impossible for anyone to certify an SS beyond a doubt. Due to the lack of GM records for USA built Chevelles and the wide range of repro sheet metal and other parts available, not to mention parts pirated from other cars, just about any '69 up V8 2 dr hardtop, convert, or El Camino (plus '69 2 dr sedan) can be cloned into an SS by a knowlegeable craftsman and not be proven otherwise by the top Chevelle authorities IMO. I wish it could be done but I don't see how.
 
#12 ·
At the present time, the economy has hurt the price of the lower end cars. The collectors ( folks with money ) have not been stung by the economy, thus the high end cars are still moving. As the economy gets better, everyone gets back to work, the lower end will pick up. JMHO
 
#16 ·
I was thinking about putting some 350 badges on my Arlington, TX built 1972 Malibu Coupe, but it sounds like it may be more rare if I actually put 307 badges on it. :D

I want to make some custom emblems that say NSS so people will stop asking. ;)
 
#17 ·
Interesting concept. My view is that the market price of the lower end cars has not dropped. I still have yet to see another 66 two door hardtop Malibu, running and driveable for much less than $8-10K. They may not be selling, (and I am not buying another Chevelle, at the moment) but I still see the average sitting by the side of the road car priced at $8k and up.

I am not in the middle ground of $20 -30k cars yet, but for the moment, I will just make do and add new parts to mine.

The things that are most important to me are that the overall market stays alive so that companies can still afford to invest enough to make the repro parts that I/we all enjoy and need. Without that, I would not have bought the Chevelle, and would have stayed with Fox ponies, since I have a collection of parts cars for them. Even those are benefiting from the repro companies now.

If you look at the history of old cars, you see some odd things, imho. When I was younger, Model T's, A's and such were valued as antiques. Now, even the nicer examples are bought up for pretty strong prices and cut up to make hotrods. Annoys me greatly, since I kinda like to see how they were. We, many folks on here, grew up with Chevelles and like them original at this time also. That may last awhile or it may change, who knows.

It does come down to what someone wants to pay for, and do once they have paid for it, I guess.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Rick,

I like your first post because it echoes what I have felt for many years. I think there is interest (see my thread in Restoration Corner titled Broach Marks) in an "authentication" program. I also think most people that are against it are afraid of being left out. If the program were done correctly it would not, should not be exclusionary.

In my vision of an authentication program you could certify an obvious clone. Take a Malibu, swap in all the SS parts but the wrong dash, including a date code correct LS6 driveline (now there is one less LS6). Present it for authentication. Through inspection using such things as welded up molding holes and incorrect dash, it would be obvious the car is not originally an LS6. However, it could score enough points to be a respectable and convincing facsimile. Like the NCRS, it should be scored on the appearance of originality. A Malibu with a truck 454, wrong vintage strato buckets and sweep dash would score points but not be as pervasive. To me, that is equitable and what is missing.

I have been against clones (in absolute terms) because, IMO it has created confusion with uneduacated buyers and in the process devalued 'real' but undocumented cars. I recognize that the preceding statement is an overly broad opinion. Therefore, I am willing to endorse an authentication program that helps create some confidence in the quality of the cars. This could be a good opportunity to implement a very tangible scale to measure how authentic any car is. An authentication program could eliminate the pass/fail mentality for desirable cars and build confidence, which reinforces the value proposition with future buyers and hopefully build a better aftermarket for restoration parts. The higher the score the more impact it would have on pricing.

I will state it here and expect it to be controversial, but part of what is being discussed here should be a part of a real club or enthusiast organization. It is too much to expect a singular person to carry off. I would also fear the potential for subjectivity of a single person or entity. The standards should be the standards.

Last thing I would like to say is whether you are a hobbiest or a collector, ownership of a Chevrolet A body should not be exclusionary. I am committed to that principle. I would also volunteer to participate in an authentication program.
 
#19 ·
Interesting post. If a certification program improved the quality of repop parts...that alone would be worth it, but as others have stated I think your trying to nail jello to a tree. Up to 69 the vin is a cars certification, beyond that its paperwork, paint codes or in the case of 72 the vin. Other than that it's one persons opinion verus another. A certification program with no basis to back it up isn't a certification. It lends as much credence as a fake buildsheet or window sticker to a cars value.

As far as values go, at the peak of Barret Jackson the Chevelles in many cases were commanding just as much money if not more than their "cousins". Chevelles are extremely popular because they were mass produced for blue collar consumers and everyone it seems, at car shows either owned one, family owned one, their buddy owned one or they rode in one. The fact that many, if not most, sell for 10 to 50 times their original purchase price speaks volumes for their popularity. Are they worth as much today as 3 years ago? In most cases probably not but then again neither is the house across the street.

As the boomer generation ages there will be less of a market for the muscle car era cars much like we saw with 55-57 values as they plunged from their peak. The muscle cars will go thru the same cycle and then stablize in price because they are an American Icon just like the 55-57 cars. I think the fact that customized Chevelles are bringing decent money at places like B-J shows the Chevelle is following in the footsteps of the 55-57 cars. Just my opinion.
 
#51 ·
#20 ·
This seems, as already stated several times, to be a great idea until you think about for a while. Too large, too wide scale, and basically not feasible to implement. And as already stated who could be sure with some clones, and some true SS cars that have been strippped that don't have paperwork? No one can.

As far as prices coming down I say good - they were getting out of hand. Just like real estate the high end will always be high, but the non trailer quenn should be affordalbe to buy and repair. Why would we want to price anyone out of the market?

If you need good solid advice you can get it here, and if you need the security of certification it can be had although it won't be official. A national certification council will, in my opinion, muddy the waters and will make mistakes that will infuriate some and cost others dearly.

I personally would not participate in such a program.
 
#21 ·
As with everything else in life, why does it always have to be about the money? I know, it's how we keep score in this world. But why do we have to keep score when it comes to these old cars? Doesn't anyone but me pour money into these things just for the enjoyment of ownership?

It's kinda like owning a boat. No way it's worth what you paid. No way you can use it enough to justify even owning it. But you do it anyway because it provides some pleasure (and frustration when it gives you trouble) in this time we have on earth.

My 3 cents worth.
 
#27 ·
I humbly disagree with the boat comparison. In fact, I got out of boating just to get back into cars. If you are doing this as I consider "the right way" a well bought car with some sweat equity will out perform a boat any day.

As for the certification process. Let's start it. What would be the downside? I'm sure some rogue certifiers will start springing up but even that could be contained with some help from ACES (maybe an approved list of experts)?????
 
#22 ·
I agree with Ron and Dewayne completely .I would like to see the prices stay close to where they are as with everything else prices are very inflated.My cars are for my and my wifes entertainment and not investments. We drive them as we built them to be driven alot. We love our cars , but its the people weve had the pleasure to meet because of these cars that mean the most to us. We enjoy meeting all car people as everyone is so open to sharing their stories and ideas,and sometimes the tradgedies in their life that touch you in ways you wouldnt think about.
 
#23 ·
#25 ·
As expected, this thread is getting lots of comments, both pro and con.

Personally, I did not see this concept being about raising the value of our cars (perhaps I read the original post wrong). However, that appears to be what a lot of the responses are referring to. The values will be whatever the market dictates them to be.

I see this as a way to protect buyers from getting caught with a clone or a rebody as a couple of examples. Whether the prospective buyer is looking at a 70 SS as a daily driver and wanting to spend $20K, or looking at a full blown frame off restoration and wanting to spend $80K, the concept remains the same in my opinion. Just making sure you get what you're paying for based on the quality of the car. If these two examples were actually clones, then the buyer should likely be paying about $10K and $40K respectively (give or take some).

I recently looked at a 69 SS after it was purchased and the car had a Malibu body with the VIN and Trim Tag swapped from an SS (72 paint code). I felt sorry for the individual involved. He obviously paid a lot more than he should have. It is circumstances like this as being what this program would be about. In the end perhaps it does all come back to money, don't know for sure.

Just my additional two cents worth.
 
#32 ·
As expected, this thread is getting lots of comments, both pro and con.

Personally, I did not see this concept being about raising the value of our cars (perhaps I read the original post wrong). However, that appears to be what a lot of the responses are referring to. The values will be whatever the market dictates them to be.

I see this as a way to protect buyers from getting caught with a clone or a rebody as a couple of examples. Whether the prospective buyer is looking at a 70 SS as a daily driver and wanting to spend $20K, or looking at a full blown frame off restoration and wanting to spend $80K, the concept remains the same in my opinion. Just making sure you get what you're paying for based on the quality of the car. If these two examples were actually clones, then the buyer should likely be paying about $10K and $40K respectively (give or take some).

I recently looked at a 69 SS after it was purchased and the car had a Malibu body with the VIN and Trim Tag swapped from an SS (72 paint code). I felt sorry for the individual involved. He obviously paid a lot more than he should have. It is circumstances like this as being what this program would be about. In the end perhaps it does all come back to money, don't know for sure.

Just my additional two cents worth.
Don unfortunately some buyers will always get trapped. We have fake build sheets, swapped trim tags and if we have a chevelle registry we will have reigistry forgeries. Let the buyer beware - and do his homework, and ask for help (even at a cost) if the buyer is looking at spending a substantial amount of money on a classic car. But trying to put together a council (or one person) to be head of a program would be near impossible and very costly. And I believe it wouldn't help car values or distinction between real and fake.
 
#26 ·
"Certification and official documentation of Chevelles by recognized

Take the "Made in Taiwan" sticker off and you find "Made in USA". OK I certify that it is made in Taiwan, remove the sticker and certify that is made in USA? Today there is no way to tell (except for a few cases) what is cloned and what is real. I purchased my 68 new and the 71 was purchase new by my friend so I know what is original what is not. Once I'm dead so goes the certification. Lets leave the money making to the big boys and restore these cars so that future generations know our history.
 
#59 ·
Re: "Certification and official documentation of Chevelles by recogniz

Take the "Made in Taiwan" sticker off and you find "Made in USA". OK I certify that it is made in Taiwan, remove the sticker and certify that is made in USA? Today there is no way to tell (except for a few cases) what is cloned and what is real. I purchased my 68 new and the 71 was purchase new by my friend so I know what is original what is not. Once I'm dead so goes the certification. Lets leave the money making to the big boys and restore these cars so that future generations know our history.
As you stated,once I am gone the history of my Chevelle is gone with me.So what do we do about it now.In my case I have owned the car for forty years this coming Labor Day weekend.I never bought the car for anything but "Hot" Transportation. At 21 and facing Vietnam what else was I thinking.Yes I am the second owner,but I actually talked to the previous owner at the dealer as he was trading the car in.So what do we do about all the cars that really are real.I'm not looking to make money on my car(none of you have ever seen it) LOL, but it has been mine.So when I'm gone I would like to leave my wife with something that says this car is original and worth XXX not, she knows nothing about it and calls the local pickapart to drag the rusty POS out of the yard.If you don't agree, I respect that but I think somebody that knows these cars should at least look at them.
 
#29 ·
I say the market is going to take care of itself. Example: Government Bail Out. It did not work. Supply and Demand. We have no control over it. I am all for making better repo parts. You can not argue with Quality. If the Quality is there it will increase Value automatically from all aspects, V6 to LS6. As far as a certification deal, I have no problem with that either, it should be owner specific. If you have a real LS6 and want to have someones stamp of approval and it makes you feel better than go for it. I still don't think it will effect the market. As far as protecting owners, I think it all goes back to "Buyer Be Ware" ....2 more cents.
 
#30 ·
#33 ·
:)IIRC, Jeff Dotterer is still doing certifications of Chevelles for a fee. You can contact him here, or maybe he'll chime in to this thread.
http://www.classicjunkyard.com/datedcomponents/
BillL
Bill - nothing against you or Jeff - but here's some of the mud I talked about earlier. Whey would a certification program be confined to one entity? Everyone could be their own expert, and certify cars to their liking.
 
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