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  #16  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 2:42 AM
658Chevy 658Chevy is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Brad Penn is a good oil. Go to this link to find a local supplier: http://locator.penngrade1.com/default.aspx

I found a shop near me who sells it for $72 a case ($6 a bottle) which is a good price. Most places online are $6-8 a bottle, plus shipping.
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  #17  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 11:25 AM
rocks66ss rocks66ss is online now
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by oman View Post
All the reasons for asking make sense but honestly rather than being fascinated as you are about the paranoia I am weary of the whole thing. My logic is that while ZDDP is apparently the "gold standard" for older engines it is a thing of the past due to legislation / cat converters / the alignment of the planets and other factors. I have more or less concluded that other additives are brewed in oils and as a result ZDDP while nice to have is not necessary. I really REALLY doubt the "POOF" theory that keeps some people up at night. The Vette crowd, obsessed as they are with original this and original that, are likely more paranoid because a serious "POOF" could clean out irreplaceable originaal parts.

I dunno if some SAE standards board determines how much is enough I suspect that the Government determines how much will be allowed and that is that period end of discussion. In the past the refiners could load in as much ZDDP as they wanted and I doubt any standards actually said XXX PPM ZDDP is right for a BBC or a flat tappet whatever. Worse case put a roller cam in the engine and move on is what I say to some folks.

I have run up huge miles on SBC engines with Plain Jane pre synthetic Pennsoil with no issues. Along comes Synth ...Mobil 1 with xyz film strength, lasts forever under ABC conditions with a $$$$$$$$ price per quart. My response...I stayed with the old outta the ground stuff and lo and behold it still worked.

I gotta believe that the large refiners can make an oil that gets the job done without ZDDP....hell they get it done with little if any crude with the Synth oils if ya believe the mkt. hype. Didn't the Germans also get it done without much crude during WWII?

I think this ZDDP mania is a result of the killer springs people are running. Cams fail, no one wants to admit they might have too much spring on the valves, so they gotta hang the failure on something. Presto the lack of ZDDP becomes the lightning rod. Next we hear about the government messing up our old engines because they are railroading us into "Greener" oils / lube for our cars. My response watch the spring pressure, run quality oil change it often and be happy.

I agree with everything you say, I'm just picking a top rated oil and go with it and it appears my mileage and oil change intervals just doesn't matter because on 700 mile changes, I could probably pick the cheapest oil on the shelf and be fine.


I think my reference to fascination was probably not worded very well. It's not from everyone's paranoia of their engine going poof, but my fascination stems from the fact of how much of this wonder chemical that is really needed can not be answered. Not on this board, the Ford board, Austin Healey board ect, ect you get the picture.

My original questions above I'm pretty sure will not be answered. I'm really curious as to why these specific questions can NEVER get a straight answer. As I'm pretty sure that I can't be the only person that has these questions. I do know that no matter what brand or what engine in the United states or abroad, this is a big topic of conversation everywhere, and the reason for it has to lay somewhere

There had to be some basis somewhere, that says to adequately protect a cam and lifter assembly, xxxx amount of detergents and Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate is needed in oil to accomplish this task. Otherwise it wouldn't have been put there in the first place in the quantities that were originally there is all I'm saying.

I do find reference to SAE Tech Bulletin #770087 that refers to operation of a flat-tappet engine without adequate EP additive such as ZDDP, quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. So...what did they consider adequate. That's the answer I'm searching for


I can't believe that the answer to the question is XXXXppm really required or needed to protect your engine?? or does the XXXppm protect just as well, but not as long.


I guess if these questions were probably ever really answered, the marketing hype for all the oil company's wouldn't be needed.

I just know that when specific questions get asked, the only answer is I use brand X or brand Y or brand Z but no answer to what is truly needed.

It's a subject that actually does intrigue me, and surely the real answers are out there. I do know that all the hype from everything that has been posted on oil here has confused more than just me. That's why I'm taking the time to try and educate myself on the facts rather than just run out and buy $8.00 a quart oil because thats what every body is doing.



Rocky


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  #18  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 12:20 PM
oman oman is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocks66ss View Post
I agree with everything you say, I'm just picking a top rated oil and go with it and it appears my mileage and oil change intervals just doesn't matter because on 700 mile changes, I could probably pick the cheapest oil on the shelf and be fine.


I think my reference to fascination was probably not worded very well. It's not from everyone's paranoia of their engine going poof, but my fascination stems from the fact of how much of this wonder chemical that is really needed can not be answered. Not on this board, the Ford board, Austin Healey board ect, ect you get the picture.

My original questions above I'm pretty sure will not be answered. I'm really curious as to why these specific questions can NEVER get a straight answer. As I'm pretty sure that I can't be the only person that has these questions. I do know that no matter what brand or what engine in the United states or abroad, this is a big topic of conversation everywhere, and the reason for it has to lay somewhere

There had to be some basis somewhere, that says to adequately protect a cam and lifter assembly, xxxx amount of detergents and Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate is needed in oil to accomplish this task. Otherwise it wouldn't have been put there in the first place in the quantities that were originally there is all I'm saying.

I do find reference to SAE Tech Bulletin #770087 that refers to operation of a flat-tappet engine without adequate EP additive such as ZDDP, quickly leads to lifter foot scuffing and cam lobe wear. So...what did they consider adequate. That's the answer I'm searching for


I can't believe that the answer to the question is XXXXppm really required or needed to protect your engine?? or does the XXXppm protect just as well, but not as long.


I guess if these questions were probably ever really answered, the marketing hype for all the oil company's wouldn't be needed.

I just know that when specific questions get asked, the only answer is I use brand X or brand Y or brand Z but no answer to what is truly needed.

It's a subject that actually does intrigue me, and surely the real answers are out there. I do know that all the hype from everything that has been posted on oil here has confused more than just me. That's why I'm taking the time to try and educate myself on the facts rather than just run out and buy $8.00 a quart oil because thats what every body is doing.



Rocky


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I still think you are stuck on ZDDP as opposed to accepting that other additives (DZZP for all I know) can do the same job. Stuck might be too strong a word and I do understand that the collector car world is abuzz with this issue.

Part of the confusion is IMHO absolutely attributed to Marketing FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt) and some is doubtlessly due to wanna be lubrication engineers who don't have a clue. I have read papers from guys (real auto engineers from schools like Michigan later employed in engine development at GM) and they say that if the can has " SAE XXXX" rating on the label just use it even if it is labeled McDonald's oil and sells for $1.00 / quart. I can just imagine people listening to that with their precious numbers matching classic car. I think there are lots of guys out there who just plain "feel better" buying the $8.00 / quart stuff. I am not saying the $8.00 stuff is bad I just think that at $8.00 / quart there HAS to be another less expensive answer. IMHO the Government legislatively squeezing the ZDDP out of the oil has produced a "window" for folks to market this stuff using whatever refining regulation loopholes that exist and selling it at $8.00 or whatever per quart. I almost bet that the $8.00 stuff is blended by some of the big refiners..I just don't see how "Hank's Racing Oil" is blended / refined in some facility owned by "Hank". Just doesn't seem possible to me.
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  #19  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 12:33 PM
427L88 427L88 is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by oman View Post
That sorta says it all. If something works go with it!
Ah, he's just promoting his home state product! And I'm thinking of going back to good ol' Delo ( which I still use in the diesel commuter and did for years in the 427) as my sphincter is becoming less ZDDP puckered!

I remember the product piece from BPenn that said ZDDP isnt the be all and end all and they felt their base, etc made it a superior oil. Now, they've hopped on the ZDDP bandwagon it seems, at least from a marketing POV. FUD indeed.

Hey RAY! That "FUD" concept is exactly how Uncle Sam runs. Sheiss does indeed roll downhill, now, don't it!
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  #20  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 1:53 PM
rocks66ss rocks66ss is online now
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Gene,

I have Delo spec sheet in front of me Zn-1300 and Ph-1200
I also have a Valvoline VR1 spec sheet, Zn-1400 and Ph-1300

The difference is within what a batch variance would be. If I can find Delo in 10-30, that is probably what I'm going to use.


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  #21  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 4:32 PM
CDN SS CDN SS is online now
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

You may find some of this interesting

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/about-zinc


........ Yes on the JG oil website but some basic oil info not JG specific ...some topics like diesel oil in a gas engine ........zinc levels / detergents etcetc ......racin oil in a street motor
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  #22  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 7:12 PM
Two Lane Two Lane is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

How to recognize an uninformed "Additive Addict":

"Wall, I juz figgered it couldn't hurt...pluz all my frenz sez it's good."

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually hoped the collective car-guy consciousness
finally had risen to seeing oil additives as the snake
oil they are, and those who promote them as the
predatory hucksters that they are.
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  #23  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 7:19 PM
Two Lane Two Lane is offline
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Default http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

www.bobistheoilguy.com <-----------Great resource


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...s.php?ubb=cfrm <---Forum
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  #24  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 8:07 PM
rocks66ss rocks66ss is online now
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CDN SS View Post
You may find some of this interesting

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/about-zinc


........ Yes on the JG oil website but some basic oil info not JG specific ...some topics like diesel oil in a gas engine ........zinc levels / detergents etcetc ......racin oil in a street motor
Bill,
Thanks for the email, The info was informative. And this link was good too.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Lane View Post
How to recognize an uninformed "Additive Addict":

"Wall, I juz figgered it couldn't hurt...pluz all my frenz sez it's good."

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually hoped the collective car-guy consciousness
finally had risen to seeing oil additives as the snake
oil they are, and those who promote them as the
predatory hucksters that they are.
I think I was about to fall into the trap!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Lane View Post
I have belonged to that forum for some time now. But a lot of The Sky Is Falling Over There Also.


Well I remembered this piece posted by 540 Rat doing comparisons of Quaker state Defy to other oils, and I went back and read it several more times. Funny how long some things take to soak in. I think the first time I read it, I had been inundated with so much info good and bad, I didn't really read what actually had been done and all I looked at was the data on each one without actually understanding what it all meant.

oman rattled my memory banks with his comments about "Other" additives in oil that made me go back and re-read the article in the link posted below. I think I had got stuck on trying to find hard data on quantities of Zn/Ph in older oil, I had ignored some of the fact that it's not the holy grail of engine additives, and if 800ppm SN oil was so bad, why aren't engines wiping lobes every day?? what can I say, sometimes I'm a slow learner.

According to the wear test there are oils that fared better than the VR1 that I'm using now that don't have the Zn content of the VR1. And two of them are off the shelf oil that I can get at Walmart and less expensive than the VR1.

My two choices are 5w-30 Pennzoil Ultra it rated #1 in the 48 oil test, or 5W-30 Mobil 1 that rated #3 out of the 48, I can get it at Walmart for $24.97 for a 5.1 qt jug, $4.99 a quart, not bad for an oil that rated better than the VR1.

The oil test comparison is in the link below if anyone is interested in a re-read.

Thanks to everyone who answered all of my endless questions along this journey for me. Your time, trouble, and expertise is most appreciated.


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...test-data.html


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  #25  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 9:23 PM
nutt nutt is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Hey Rocky link isnt working unless its my work computer. Anyone else able to go to the link?
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  #26  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 9:28 PM
surmin69 surmin69 is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

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Hey Rocky link isnt working unless its my work computer. Anyone else able to go to the link?
Works for me, just on it......
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  #27  
Old Dec 27th, 12, 9:54 PM
nutt nutt is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Must be my work computer then. Damn security controls.
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  #28  
Old Dec 28th, 12, 8:51 AM
427L88 427L88 is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Rocky, the Delo, as a diesel "fleet" oil is only in the conventional 15-40 weight. My last jugs were bought at WMT for $11 a jug. BTW, as diesel oil, it gets dark in short order ( 5 hours run time) due to the detergents, while the Brad Penn I am using now stays "green" for a thousand miles.
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  #29  
Old Dec 28th, 12, 10:22 AM
oktunes oktunes is offline
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Beatin' a dead horse with this thread. All this info is posted and re-posted all over the net. Still a bunch of opinions with no definitive info. Every company has a different opinion and it reflects what their paid experts say. Guys here run all types of oil and have success. It seems to me the most important factor is proper break in of a new motor/cam. Once that is done, oil choice is probably not so critical.

Pre-lube a new motor and use proper cam paste. Time it correctly, fill the carb with gas and fire it up right away and bring the rpm's up to the 2000 level or so. Let it run a bit and it should be broken in and oil choice shouldn't make much difference.

Of course, guys will read this and tell of using a used cam given to them, their old lifters and that they have now put 60,000 miles on that motor. This does happen. There is nothing definitive in this subject.

Last edited by oktunes; Dec 28th, 12 at 9:18 PM.
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  #30  
Old Dec 28th, 12, 11:08 AM
rocks66ss rocks66ss is online now
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Default Re: One Last ZDDP/Oil question!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
Rocky, the Delo, as a diesel "fleet" oil is only in the conventional 15-40 weight. My last jugs were bought at WMT for $11 a jug. BTW, as diesel oil, it gets dark in short order ( 5 hours run time) due to the detergents, while the Brad Penn I am using now stays "green" for a thousand miles.
I do the purchasing for a major elevator company in the midwest and I purchase hydraulic oil by the boat loads. One Of my suppliers is a Chevron dealer, and when he was in here a couple of days ago, we were were discussing of course engine oil and ZDDP additives and we were talking about the Delo, and he told me I can actually get Delo in 10-30.

I dont believe it's anything you can get off the shelf any where, but it can be purchased thru a Chevron dealer.

Just about the time I think I have it figured out I find something that changes my mind about all of this. I just went back to http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ and read cover to cover Motor Oil 101-201 and actually took my time and made a concerted effort to comprehend what he wrote about motor oil in general and it changed my mind about the why and how comes you would use a specific motor oil, and because of temperature and lubricating concerns in a cold climate, I have changed my mind about using a 15-40 oil, and I can't wait to get the 20-50 that's in my engine out of there. I believe it was 18* this morning. Gene I also have become Un-Puckered, I got a good chuckle out of that one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by oktunes View Post
Beatin' a dead horse with this thread. All this info is posted and re-posted all over the net. Still a bunch of opinions with no definitive info. Every company has a different opinion and it reflects what their paid experts say. Guys here run all types of oil and have success. It seems to me the most important factor is proper break in of a new motor/cam. Once that is done, oil choice is probably not so critical.

Pre-lube a new motor with proper cam paste. Time it correctly, fill the carb with gas and fire it up right away and bring the rpm's up to the 2000 level or so. Let it run a bit and it should be broken in and oil choice shouldn't make much difference.

Of course, guys will read this and tell of using a used cam given to them, their old lifters and that they have now put 60,000 miles on that motor. This does happen. There is nothing definitive in this subject.
Sorry I'm beating a dead horse as you say, I guess if I know the answers I wouldn't have asked the questions now would I And most of the answers all over the internet as you say, generally leave you as confused as before. Because every question gets answered with use this, use that use X,Y, Z and no one can tell you why!

I have actually had the time this week to research in depth the things that have concerned me. This oil situation so to speak does interest me and I think I know more about oil now than I ever thought would be necessary.

You are absolutely correct! After a break in, my findings I have learned (By Actual Facts) that oil choice's only concern should be what weight is best for your engine and whether or not you want synthetic or mineral. So dead horse or not, I'm not the only guy who didn't know what is right or wrong oil wise, but I made an effort to educate my self! I would expect someone else will be around the corner soon asking some of the same things I did, and hopefully I will be able to point them in the right direction so they can educate themselves also!

So all is well in my world oil wise now. So now that we have that horse tenderized, we can have a BBQ!

So as before Thanks to all who helped me understand!


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