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CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

12K views 49 replies 25 participants last post by  Tony Mamo @ AFR 
#1 ·
For everyone on this site that's been following the constant "battles" between many of the most popular head manufacturer's over "who's head's the best?", I've put a link below to a site that will offer a real eye-opening run-down from some of the best head porters in the nation about almost ALL aspects of the entire operation and some really deep details.

A good friend of mine, who "hangs" around there contacted me about it this weekend when this particular post showed up there, and directed me there.
I hope the link works the way I figure. If not, I'm sure you'll get there one way or another.

If you have time this is most definitely one "red-hot" topic. Believe me, this WILL fill in many or all of the blanks. Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'm going say this while I'm here, it will pretty much explain why high-end units cannot use ANY fully CNC'd option to be in any sort of "serious" competition. I've posted many times here before, we order very few CNC'd pieces, ALL of our own "serious" high-end units are finished with the old
"tried & true" in-house "hand-porting". I could mention some names up here, that many would recognize immediately, that we've done some "major" final porting for on units that were destined for the "record-books", but I'm not going there now. I've been "hammered" a while back for "name-dropping", and it's not needed here anyway.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4579&sid=0d6377a64d3eda503f57133d75a9641d
 
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#3 ·
For everyone on this site that's been following the constant "battles" between many of the most popular head manufacturer's over "who's head's the best?", I've put a link below to a site that will offer a real eye-opening run-down from some of the best head porters in the nation about almost ALL aspects of the entire operation and some really deep details.

A good friend of mine, who "hangs" around there contacted me about it this weekend when this particular post showed up there, and directed me there.
I hope the link works the way I figure. If not, I'm sure you'll get there one way or another.

If you have time this is most definitely one "red-hot" topic. Believe me, this WILL fill in many or all of the blanks. Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'm going say this while I'm here, it will pretty much explain why high-end units cannot use ANY fully CNC'd option to be in any sort of "serious" competition. I've posted many times here before, we order very few CNC'd pieces, ALL of our own "serious" high-end units are finished with the old
"tried & true" in-house "hand-porting". I could mention some names up here, that many would recognize immediately, that we've done some "major" final porting for on units that were destined for the "record-books", but I'm not going there now. I've been "hammered" a while back for "name-dropping", and it's not needed here anyway.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4579&sid=0d6377a64d3eda503f57133d75a9641d
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Gary,
At first I was not going to bother to answer this but I don't feel it is fair not to so,,,

With all due respect, you are comparing apples & oranges here.
You are comparing the heads that some of the absolute best in the business do against what are good 'out of the box" affordable cylinder head that most here can buy & use.
The post your are referring to is talking about cylinder heads you are not going to touch for less than $5-$10,000 in some cases.

How exactly does this help the average person here that wants to know what is a great head for a decent price they can buy & use?

I have said this before & I will say it again.
In my opinion, for an OUT OF THE BOX head that delivers you are going to be hard pressed to beat the AFR heads.
And you will find that the AFR CNC program is one of the best finished cylinders heads in the $3000 class out there, on this almost no one will disagree with even if they feel another head is worth more power.

Are there other heads that will kill it in the correct hands?
Without a doubt, give someone like Larry Meaux, Darin Morgan or Curtis Boggs just to name a few a set of heads for your project & you will see a huge difference in power.
But these guys do heads for record holding Comp eliminator cars, SS cars, even Pro stock stuff & these are not a $2000 to $3000 set of heads.

And as for CNC heads not being capable of being a great head this is pure crap.
It all depends on what you start with & how well it is copied.
Here is another post on there you might wish to read
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4367&highlight=box

In particular this by Curtis
"You can almost always get a better head buy using a cnc head then
having the the RIGHT guy go back through them, .. CnC machines
are just copy machines, .. it doesn't mean what they cut is perfict.

It's up to the person who designs the port to start with, .. . as in the
case of the original post here by Larry M, .. he's designed a nasty
cylinder head, ..
now if he would put THAT in a CnC port it would kill anything else out there.

Curtis
_________________
Racing Flow Development
Simultaneous 5-axis CNC Porting
http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com"


Or this by Larry:
"purely out-of-box..absolutely no touching them,
the AFR 24 deg Large Oval Port heads
..might be worth looking into ? "


I guess it all comes down to what we are talking about here. :beers:
 
#15 ·
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The post your are referring to is talking about cylinder heads you are not going to touch for less than $5-$10,000 in some cases.

Hi Mike, this is off the issue for a moment, but I pulled this out of your response to clear up THE major "beef" I had with the heads my customer chose. If you follow this closely you can do the math, it's not that complicated!

Customer purchases heads from AFR after discussing the overall combo with them, it's all their recommendations. Purchase price, 3200.00 with freight. Now follow me here,

AFR 335's, CNC'd, 121 CC chamber's (actually 117), 1.550" Manley Nex-Tec's, steel retainer option. 275# closed/750# open, ALL as per AFR recommend!

Now I get the heads to do. I simply refuse to go with "steel's" and 1.550's.
Customer calls AFR, they talk him into staying the course with the 1.550's BUT, will not take back the "steels" (no credit option offered for the return of them) towards the purchase of the "Titanums". So he purchases the retainers from me, add 140.00 here plus 40.00 for spring install, and I'm still against the setup, but I go forward.

Let me shorten it here, get the unit on the dyno, "struggles" to get to 6500 RPM. I tell customer the INTAKE and the CARB is no-good for this unit, mind you, it's not breaking up, it just wont rev! This is where the 680 HP number came from, customer took unit and left. A week goes by, he called AFR, Tony specifically, and gave them the results. He explaind to them what I told him, the 7521 Weiand and the 850 (1030 CFM) carb was NO GOOD HERE, on this unit, but guess what? AFR tells him the springs are the "culprit", the very same springs they sold him from the start, from "day-1"! Gimme a break, huh!

Okay, add another 575.00 or so (to AFR's bank account) for the "new" 1.625's (remember what I said when he first brought me the heads?) AND another set of Titaniums for the same 1.625's. I explained to my customer this is considered "unarmed-robbery" in my shop!

You do the math I lost count. Must be close to $4000.00 with the freight. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The spring/retainer upgrade did "NOTHING" to the HP number. HE STILL HAS 680 HP and on top of it all he has to "scrap" his fairly new (2 years old)headers and visit George (Kooks) and get some more new headers. AND the unit is STILL "lazy"! Lesson learned for my customer: PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR ENGINE BUILDER!

Double P.S. This was my entire "beef" with the AFR heads. Was really more "policy" than a "bad" product! They were/are the wrong heads "from the box" for his unit. Remember for $3000.00 (or thereabouts) I could have given him the identical HP numbers with another brand of heads. He knows he's down 60 or better, but, not necessarily from his heads. With the solid roller setup he's using we're above the 800 HP number easily! Hyd. retro's are still in the 750 range, under 10:1, and with NO PORTING charges OR CNC options!
One more item, in fairness to AFR, this is a bit important, you have to remember you're raising the exhaust ports some 3/8" or better with almost ALL aftermarket Alunimum heads. That must be factored in to the header scenario. If you remove "irons" or in this case "Edelbrocks" you MAY have pipe issues!
 
#4 ·
I totally agree. Were comparing two different deals here when speaking out of the box(whether cast or CNC vs hand ported). At the same time.....just cause some people can definitely get better numbers from hand porting..that dont mean nothin either. Give me a full CNC set of AFR heads(for example) and let me hand port em. Ill ruin them(not a head porter, so doing it by hand doesnt even come close to being on top in this situation).......


And even if we are just talkin about CNC stuff alone.....Yeah there is manufacturing errors with everything from time to time. So its possible to beleive that every CNC head wont come out perfect every time. It happens. Most of the good guys will take care of it.

And finally, although I do realize the caliber of some of the guys over there as well as some of the people mentioned......it is still just guys talking on a message board just like here, and voicing some opinions. If we say somethin different, and then one of us guys goes over to that board and tells them to come here and read it......it wont make them all wrong just cause they read our opinions. On the same token....a different opinion over on that site doesnt necessarily make everybody or anybody over here wrong. Their opinions technically hold just as much water as ours, as they are sharing info just the same way we are. But with that said....I dont think anybody would argue anyways that a top dog porter couldnt purpose build and hand work a set of heads to get better numbers than an out of the box deal meant for a wide audience. So its hard to find the arguement anyways.
 
#5 ·
Unless you had a true expert working your heads over Id recommend CNC as it seems consistency port to port would be hard to beat. I had mine hand done but I know the guys rep and hes a freak when it comes to porting. If I hadnt ofknown him I would have gone CNC. Its a safe bet.
 
#6 ·
I told a porter he could replicate ports with a three spindle Bridgeport equipped with a TruTrace head in 1970!! He told me I was nuts. The TruTrace 3D head would allow copying the shape of anything within .0005". Millions of aircraft parts were made with similar setups.

The beauty of the hydralic tracer is it doesn't need a programer, only a part to copy. What is done now with revolving and tilting tables, was once done with trunion setups that had to be turned manually.

No matter what product you make, heads or widgets, your product will only be as good as your tooling, and you tooling will only be as good as your tool maker.

How you arrive at the shape of a port is insignificant as long as it's the right shape. CNC or hand to fit a template will still be the same. To quote the famous French porter Notso Freeair: "I just remove everything that doesn't look like a port".
 
#8 ·
Apples to Oranges???

There's no a mention of "comparison" anywhere in my original post above. The post (link) merely gives some insight into the entire "CNC" issue AND general business practices. It's like I've said all along, over here we don't really care about "CNC'ing" OR brands. Makes no difference to us. If you
"read-between-the-lines" you'll get an education more from a business standpoint.

I know many here believe I "hammer" one major player most often, well let me "continue" that saga. The very same customer, who chose these heads, CANNOT get his spark plugs (2) in his newest cylinder heads. Originally he had the factory iron heads in place, then replaced those with a pair of Edelbrocks, not an issue anywhere with that upgrade, not one single issue! Now he goes with the present set and he CANNOT get a couple of the spark plugs to go. This customer is no "dummy" and has more "savvy" than most. He proceed to modify the excellent looking pipes, I believe it's a custom set of George's from "Kook's Headers", with a 5# ball-peen hammer and a pipe. He was never told about the plug relocation! He did ask that specific question and was told that there would be no problem in that area, "if the Edelbrocks were Ok then these SHOULD go". In all fairness he was told about "raising" the headers. He knew that would "fly". So for now he has gone "backwards" 2 steps, he has a car that wont "fall-out-of-a-tree" and one can no longer (for now) do the show circuit. The headers appear as they were hit by locomotive at a railroad crossing! (They WILL be fixed, I'm sure!)

(Add) At the other site pay particular attention about the remark pertaining to the early "Dart" heads from Maskin's. "THERE WERE/ARE NO GUIDES IN THESE 360 BB HEADS"! I have 2 sets here to do now, the guides are integral "Aluminum" with some .060" bronze liners AND this is the best part, they use 5/8" "short-reach" peanut plug-tapered seat plugs. In Aluminum threads with no plug inserts! Downright "cheap" for lack of a better word.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The manufacturers, and this includes just about ALL of them, use these issues, "CNC'ing", inflated CFM numbers, etc. to sell heads. This isn't anything new!

Double P.S. With respect to AFR's "dilemma" with the premature "valve tip" wear issues, I have a number of Manley's here with the identical issues. It was a few years ago, I saved them in a box for my customer but he never picked them up. Ater speaking to K.C. down at Manley about it their first response, (quote) "those are not our valves" (end quote). They had the
"Manley" name imprinted. I sent them down and what do know, "lo and behold" they're Manleys! We knew what caused the issue and they finally confirmed our suspicions. The "key" part here, they involved the Dart SB iron
"assembled" heads sold through "Summit". This was a while back, and I would assume it's been corrected by now. So you see, we're not predjuice, I tell it like it is, it's like that proverbial saying "don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message"! If you "link" this last issue to the "missing guides" above in the "old" 360's, it's a "message" about the business aspect. If you're "savvy" you get it, if not "oh well"!
 
#32 ·
I wrote this yesterday day but had not decided if I even wanted to bother posting it & have been busy anyway.
But I see this thing is still alive & well so what the hell, guess I will add to the drama too,,, :D
HI H
Hi Jim,
Hi Tony
Hi Cody
Hi to everyone else too,,,, :waving:

=================
There's no a mention of "comparison" anywhere in my original post above. The post (link) merely gives some insight into the entire "CNC" issue AND general business practices. It's like I've said all along, over here we don't really care about "CNC'ing" OR brands. Makes no difference to us. If you
"read-between-the-lines" you'll get an education more from a business standpoint.

I know many here believe I "hammer" one major player most often, well let me "continue" that saga. The very same customer, who chose these heads, CANNOT get his spark plugs (2) in his newest cylinder heads. Originally he had the factory iron heads in place, then replaced those with a pair of Edelbrocks, not an issue anywhere with that upgrade, not one single issue! Now he goes with the present set and he CANNOT get a couple of the spark plugs to go. This customer is no "dummy" and has more "savvy" than most. He proceed to modify the excellent looking pipes, I believe it's a custom set of George's from "Kook's Headers", with a 5# ball-peen hammer and a pipe. He was never told about the plug relocation! He did ask that specific question and was told that there would be no problem in that area, "if the Edelbrocks were Ok then these SHOULD go". In all fairness he was told about "raising" the headers. He knew that would "fly". So for now he has gone "backwards" 2 steps, he has a car that wont "fall-out-of-a-tree" and one can no longer (for now) do the show circuit. The headers appear as they were hit by locomotive at a railroad crossing! (They WILL be fixed, I'm sure!)

(Add) At the other site pay particular attention about the remark pertaining to the early "Dart" heads from Maskin's. "THERE WERE/ARE NO GUIDES IN THESE 360 BB HEADS"! I have 2 sets here to do now, the guides are integral "Aluminum" with some .060" bronze liners AND this is the best part, they use 5/8" "short-reach" peanut plug-tapered seat plugs. In Aluminum threads with no plug inserts! Downright "cheap" for lack of a better word.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The manufacturers, and this includes just about ALL of them, use these issues, "CNC'ing", inflated CFM numbers, etc. to sell heads. This isn't anything new!

Double P.S. With respect to AFR's "dilemma" with the premature "valve tip" wear issues, I have a number of Manley's here with the identical issues. It was a few years ago, I saved them in a box for my customer but he never picked them up. Ater speaking to K.C. down at Manley about it their first response, (quote) "those are not our valves" (end quote). They had the
"Manley" name imprinted. I sent them down and what do know, "lo and behold" they're Manleys! We knew what caused the issue and they finally confirmed our suspicions. The "key" part here, they involved the Dart SB iron
"assembled" heads sold through "Summit". This was a while back, and I would assume it's been corrected by now. So you see, we're not predjuice, I tell it like it is, it's like that proverbial saying "don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message"! If you "link" this last issue to the "missing guides" above in the "old" 360's, it's a "message" about the business aspect. If you're "savvy" you get it, if not "oh well"!
=
Ok,,
You started your first post with the comment regarding the "CONSTANT BATTLES" of who's head is the best
WHAT BATTLE????

Until you started whining about AFR there was no battle, most everyone agreed there are a number of excellent heads out there but my own opinion was & is that for an OUT OF THE BOX HEAD the AFR was right at the top of the heap.
No one said there were not other heads that are very good.if not outstanding right out of the box.
I have said many times that for a lot of applications I prefer the Brodix oval Race Rites.
I have heard nothing but good about the new BMF stuff.
I have a set of Dart 335CNC heads sitting here that look great although they do not flow anywhere near the AFR 335.
This is on my bench under the same controlled conditions BTW, not advertised or biased numbers in any way.
Does this mean the power will be down from the AFR, this I can't answer, haven't tried them yet & when I do their will be other differences so it won't be a completely fair test.

I have also said many times that in the right hands a good head can be an outstanding head & have mentioned the folks on Speedtalk as being some of the very best in the business.

It is no secret that I have the utmost respect for Tony at AFR both as a head porter & a friend & consider him one of the best too.
You on the other hand seem to take issue with him even though he has come on here & tried to be civil to you even asking you to call him if you had some real or perceived problem
I can see you took that advice to heart :(
As I recall you did not even have the courtesy to reply to the posts.

And I must ask,,
What the hell does the AFR problem with the new 8mm valves have to do with anything?
What is your point"
When AFR steps up to the plate the way they did regarding this problem on more than one open forum you have nothing to say but you obviously read it
Where the hell were you then?

You take a post that is a generalized view of some of the best people in the cylinder head design business talking about heads that are at the top of the food chain & you link to it as if it backs up something you have discovered trying to say that it relates to what I feel are one of the best "out of the box' cylinder heads out there.

I don't have a clue what your passion is with AFR but just about every chance you get you seem to feel the need to rehash old crap & slam them in general & Tony in particular.
Out of the multitude of AFR cylinder heads out there you seem to be the only person who consistently has a problem, can't make power and generally whines about them.
I don't know of anyone who doesn't know that with a lot of aftermarket heads & headers sparkplugs can be a problem but you of course have to point at AFR??
How is it there are so many cars out there running complete with 8 plugs & headers??
Do these folks know something they are just keeping secret from you or what?

You then go off on a rant about how you bitch about all brands, not just AFR but this is usually when someone calls you on your posts.

Here are some of your other bits of valuable information over the past year or two

You get on here & talk about using springs that are 300/800 after I have posted probably a dozen or so times about the merits of enough spring pressure with a roller & the bad things that happen without enough spring.

Yet just a few months ago you were advocating using 5/16" pushrods in a rat is a good thing because they are lighter
(damn but I love this one :sad: )

You have made statements like torque plates do nothing & you have proved it,

You imply that you seem to be the only person who knows how to gap a ring & most of us "other engine builders", the ring manufacturers, piston manufacturers, Major OEM's since the 1980's don't have a clue because they have gone to a wider second ring gap.

You talk about your "300 units" you did last year,,,, this is an engine a day for Christ's sake

You have said you have like 100+ Dart & Bowtie blocks in stock??
Hell, even Dart doesn't have 100 blocks in stock,,

You have said your good friend is Bill Mitchell
Then you say you will not use any of his stuff because of quality control

I could go on but if anyone doubts I speak the truth just do a simple search on all of your past posts.

And,,, now the "good part",
You have come on here many times & given excellent information, helped a number of folks with problems and you have obviously been around this stuff for a while so,,,,
How about getting off the AFR bash-box & sticking with the good information.

AFR has an excellent head,
Dart CNC are an excellent head
Brodix has some excellent heads
Hell, even RHS may get their act together soon :D

PS,,, Ok, I am done now,,,,,
 
#9 ·
Is there any mertit to the "pros" saying that AFR does flow bench trick porting? Meaning they flow well on the flow bench but do not make the equillivant power on the track? I've heard that before on other boards.

I realize they have their perfered head....and that maybe the reason they seem to PooPoo the AFR's...but in all truth, that post just made the water cloudier, in my mind anyways.

Whats was with the comment that if you contact one of the "pros" you can get one of their heads for around the same price as a CNC'd shelf head?

If I was planning on some Top Sportsman, Top Comp or comp eliminator racing you can be sure one of the "pros" would be contacted, but for shoe polish racing, the shelf AFR's will be my choice.
 
#10 · (Edited)
There is no way for us with only a passing knowledge to know which heads will or will not make tons of power. We know what the flow bench numbers are but that really doesn't give you a true picture of what a particular head will do. The type of flow bench and the procedure can give very different results depending on who does the testing. I have a set of AFRs and am very pleased with the way the car runs even though the flow bench didn't show them to be up to par. I don't see how even heads that might run a tenth better are a bargain if they crack in a critical area and ruin an entire head. The AFRs on my son's have already produced a 9.46 with a 3.50 rear gear and a 1.80 powerglide, and 9.31 with a 2.10 first geared 400 Turbo so they can't be too lame. I'm going to gear the motor properly sometime before next season and see what it is really capable of. The only way of getting the max out of a combination is to get a data logger and TNT like Todd does. I'd bet his tweeking could find three tenths or more in any of our cars. Frankly i had already read those posts over on speedtalk and didn't think they gave up any big head porting secrets but all of it is interesting.
 
#12 ·
Let me address the AFR/header thing. When I called Hooker about their headers not fitting the AFR 210, the reply was: We are not going to change our header design for one set of heads. I answered by saying AFR sells a lot of heads; maybe it would be good business if they modified the fixtures and bending. (The left side never has been any good) Maybe Hooker has their money invested in some other head company.

I do think that ALL the head companies need to get with ALL the header benders to produce products we can bolt together. Isn't that what SEMA should be about?

Also, there is absolutly no reason that I can see for AFR not spotfacing/counter boring the center bolt hole deep enough to not require grinding a washer into a triangle to fit the hole. .060"-.090" deeper is all that is required. Hope they fixed that on the new heads. If Tony says the plug angles are required for performance, I can live with that. But the center bolt hole counterbore should be a no brainer.

I also think the shorty plugs should be described better in Summit. How do you know what you are buying?

And Gosfast: I "dimpled" my headers with a 'c' clamp, a block of wood, and 1 3/4" socket. I don't think you would even notice they have been modified. If your guy used a ball peen hammer, that is not the fault of the head designer. If he was unable to do the job right himself, he should have taken it to someone that could bend the headers neatly. A lot of car building is just 'knowing how'.
 
#13 ·
This looks like another attempt by Gary from NY to slander the aftermarket head companies. Time after time, we have seen Gary jump at the chance to discredit AFR among some of the other brands. Its obvious he has some kind of bone to pick, and this latest attempt is just as weak as the previous attempts. Just give it up Gary, its okay.
 
#16 ·
I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but will add my .02 here.

There is no magic in CNC ported heads. It's a popular "buzz" word right now, but it simply means someone created a master port that was digitized and then reproduced with a CNC mill. As far as I'm concerned, CNC came about in an effort to bring fully ported heads into a cost range most could afford.

Here's my example. Last winter I looked into building a set of legal heads for RAM Racing D/R class in which I won the 2005 points championship. I priced several head options but with the rules there were only really two or three legal castings worth considering. Two of which were the Brodix Race Rite oval and rect port versions. In their box stock configuration, they are a street head. To make them a race head to fit my needs, the valve length, springs and retainers all needed upgraded to the typical 1.625" springs, titanium retainers and longer valves for the taller installed height. This made the "box stock/upgraded" head assemblies in the $2500 price range. Now for what i was looking to accomplish, the heads as cast would not be enough to make my combination competitive. They needed professional porting. I spoke with a few head porters and was looking at an additional $1200-2000 in porting to make these "street" heads comparable to some of the competition heads out there. That's a total of $3700-4500 for a set of ported "street" heads with little resale value once it's all said and done. I simply decided that wasn't a very smart route to go.

I then looked into heads which were not legal for the class knowing I wasn't gonna be able to run the class anymore. I then looked at Brodix, AFR, Profiler then CFE/BMF.

After the research I did, the BMF came out the clear winner to me. These heads were fully (dare I say it) CNC ported, Severe Duty valves, Manley Nextek 1.640" double springs, and titanium retainers. After discussing my setup with CFE, they recommended we step down from the 2.30" intake valves to a smaller 2.25" due to the small 4.280" bore I use and also used a special chamber program for my small bore. The only extra charge was $80 to flat mill to my required 114cc chamber.

Now, I did have the heads flowed to compare my old 781 large ovals to the new 310cc BMF's. The flow numbers were considerably off compared to what BMF advertises, but to their defense, some of the required valve & chamber changes surely impacted the final flow numbers. Also we used a 4.310" bore fixture where I don't know what fixture diameter they use, nor do I know if we flowed the same port they did.

I didn't really ponder the flow discrepancy, nor did I call to inquire about it as CFE doesn't like selling based upon flow numbers. I solely went upon their reputation for making power.

Once the engine was back together, it wound up running a solid 5 tenths and 7+ mph quicker than the old oval port combination. That was enough to tell me these heads made respectable power. Especially give the fact the engine was for the most part an off the shelf/bolt together deal assembled in my own garage.

Now, surely I could make more power, but to be honest, some get too hugn up on cylinder heads and power. Sure you need good heads to make power, but there not the only thing to a good ET slip. The entire engine has to work in unison as well as an efficient driveline to get as much power to the ground as possible and a good suspension setup to hook the tire well. For the most part, my little 461 bbc is running just as quick as several fellow racers who run at similar weights, but run 509 and 540 ci engines.

It's not just about one specific part, it's a package that must work smoothly together.

I understand there are quality issues with CNC ported heads in the industry. Pretty tough to ride the fence between top quality and making money on a project especially when the performance customer typically wants the parts as cheap as possible. I see it as a no-win situation.

I have the utmost respect for the head guru's on the engine board. Without them, the CNC machines would have nothing to spit out. Also, if one is looking for a killer class motor, the gentle touch of those porting artists are a must. CNC ported heads have their place and I dare say they likely aren't all on a level field when it comes to quality vs cost.

I myself feel I made the right decision choosing the BMF heads for my needs and combination/situation/budget.

Todd
 
#17 ·
My turn again! ALL cylinder heads are a compromise at some point; just like cams and compression. Most heads are flow tested at 28"WC. There is no engine that runs at 28"WC. Intake ports TYPICALLY flow from "0" to 450+ feet per second in velocity. What may be laminar flow @ 100 FPS may be turbulent flow at 400 FPS. Add to that the pulsing flow common to IC engines and you can see why no head is going to work under all circumstances. So, you end up with what one person, the porter, discovers with one combo. And TRIES to replicate with other engines. The point is this: Piston head/combustion shape, valve size, RPM, type of fuel, altitude, etc. all dictate what a given port will require for MAXIMUM performance.

As you can easily see in their advertising, AFR goes for maximum torque in a given RPM range for a given CID size. The head that AFR sells on mass quantity is not meant to be run on an F1 engine. The heads in their catalog state they are good for LIMITED RPM. If you are building an 500+CID engine that is going to run maximum compression and 10,000RPM, you are not going to see that goal with a CNC or cast ported, off the shelf head. If you don't know that, your in the wrong hobby.

This post started by someone asking,"What's the best head?" There is no BEST HEAD. I will say that with my limited experience and from what I have observed, AFR makes a good product. Point is, a porting tool can make it a better product, FOR SOME PARTICULAR USAGE. NONE of the heads GOSFAST mentions will be "THE BEST" for any particular competitive combination without seeing a porting tool. That's why porters are in business.

When you are talking porting, what you are really saying is "What does THIS engine require?" Nothing more.

Don't forget: AFR is also in the head porting business. (I know I shouldn't say this: don't take it the wrong way.) Maybe the first guy you get on the phone isn't the best guy to talk to at any company. It's important to shop around, go to the races, talk to people that are having success, see if you are willing to spend the money they have spent.

You are not going to get 1 off quality for mass produced price.
 
#19 ·
I didnt read the link yet.. But this begs the questions...

1.So why cant the head manufacturers hire a porter to improve their design and the set up the CNC to grind out that shape? and then sell it as a stage III port or something like that?

2. Is a $10,000 head more consistant than a $3000 head?
 
#20 ·
I didnt read the link yet.. But this begs the questions...

1.So why cant the head manufacturers hire a porter to improve their design and the set up the CNC to grind out that shape? and then sell it as a stage III port or something like that?

2. Is a $10,000 head more consistant than a $3000 head?
You need to read the link to understand some of the shortcomings of the CNC machine and it's usage.

Basically it comes down to milling the head as quick as possible to make it profitable. If the bit is set to cut to agressively it can flex the bit and now the port won't be the exact dimesions as the master digitized port was. Also it was mentioned the amount of overlap the tool makes also affects the surface finish as well as the final dimensions. The slower and closer the travel the better the final finish of the port, but the longer it will take.
 
#21 ·
I just read the link.. lots of stuff there.... Speed and worn out bits...
Basically comes down to quality control... not an inherant flaw in cnc machine itself but more the rate at which some stuff is being pumped out.
I have read some comments by T.M. himself where he does state that there might be some very slight variation in port size due to bit wear etc.... Something it sounded like they monitored rather closely
But the mention of one un-named brand of cnc head being 100 cfm off!
C'mon man someone was asleep at the switch there :D
 
#26 ·
I have had the chance to see CNC work from several different sources including Patriot Performance, M2 Systems, AFR, and the art work of BAE. The M2 heads had some QC issues. (flaking aluminum around the guide)
 
#27 ·
This is fun stuff!!

I think it all comes down to *IF* you can find a porter that you trust and who will actually turn out the work. Often stuff ends up in *machine shop* jail and getting a nice set of CNC heads that will get you that 90-95% of a hand ported head looks awful attractive when you can gat them within a couple of weeks maybe.

Most porters I know would much prefer to work with a bare casting so they can put *their* port design in it. Who knows if their desing really makes more power than the CNC version...but as mentioned....you are designing heads for the intended purpose...so often an experienced head porter can do much better for you.

I bought my as cast Brodix 2Xtra's because it was what I could afford at the time AND the head porter I knew and trusted really liked the Brodix casting over any others out there. He admitted that there were some others that made more power out of the box, but he saw porosity issues etc with them. This was also about 6-7 years ago and CNC stuff was just coming of age. AFR was taking orders for heads that wouldn't be delivered for another year or so at least. So I went with the Brodix.

I can say that when we flow tested them with 2 years of street and race use on them, they actually slightly outflowed Brodix's adv numbers, so I was happy.

I then had the porter work on them and they spent LOTS of time on the bench. He tried various seat angles, backcuts, chamber mods etc etc until he arrived at the final version. When done, they ended up with 2 separate valvejobs on the *good and bad* ports and flow within 5 cfm on each and every port. The results were fantastic. Where once the motor *signed off* past 6500 rpm..the new heads were pulling hard past 7500 rpm on a 540. As a result of some good head work I was able to step back down on cam and actually run faster.

I still think the CNC deals are probably the best bang for the buck out there...it allows the average Joe to make some serious power out in Po-dunk Nowhere, USA. I truly believe that most folks have no idea of the services available to them from the smaller head porters and CNC places, so the CNC is the only thing they know about, and they oder them.

Todd brings up another good point....while we all like to make lots of power...there is a lot more to getting a decent ET. Most of us overpower it (me included) because we don't spend the time to science out the chassis enough.

Also for reference...my heads still use 1.550 springs. My cams have been in the .700-.775 lift range with lots of street use and over 7000 rpm running. I have stainless valves...nothing fancy. I have a set of K-Motions in there now that have been running for 3-4 years now. The first set were only changed because the machine shop lost two of them...they still checked out fine. Springs are much better these days. But I do agree the 1.625 would be a nice upgrade...just haven't done it yet.


JIM
 
#28 ·
wow a pair of headers that dont fit . This guy is one of those guys that post stuff to get a rise out of people . you think that AFR heads are the only heads that most headers dont fit . Helped a guy put a stroked 440 in a dart and had to bend a 1200.00 dollar set of tti headers that are one off for a dart with a 440 you sould have seen them ,now lets blame the head man for the fitment issues. Ive had to bend many sets of headers high end ones at that . and never once blamed the heads for it . I dont know what prob Gofast has with AFR but just about every post is about them and some "unit " he has built . My engine revs fine with my AFR heads on a 555ci with the 325 runners its been to 7800 so now ill bash brodix or dart . or maybe not . Ive seen a red dragster with the same heads i got on a 555ci that shifts at 7600 or at least his box does and its in the 7ns . My point is in my very limited exp they work and i see them working at the drag strip , and I might add that all of them have headers on them and some of them arent even bent . My heads have the cnc ports and i had a little trouble getting the valve cover bolts in threds were a little hoakey but all is good . thank s for a great head AFR . Gofast will give an example of one time this engine or unit i was building dint work cause it had the wrong springs on it or i told the guy that was having the engine built that it wasnt gonna work . Why would a guy or gal have you put an engine or unit together if they dont want your input on the build . give it up dude AFR heads work . by the way florescent lights dont work I told the guy as he was getting it out of the box and when he dropped it and it busted , " I said see I told you so. "
 
#29 ·
Good post Fowl69....I most certainly agree.

I have come to the conclusion that some people get a rise out of posting crap on the Internet more than they care about resolving their issues (which of course in some cases are questionable issues at that). Everyone loves drama and these boards are like soap opera's for....men....some more mature than others. And note that I am speaking in very general terms here.

And yes...."Gary from NY's" constant negative undertone of anything AFR related is really getting old. You know what guys....we make an excellent BBC product....we just spent stupid time and money retooling and redesigning our 23' SBC Chevy's (setting the bar higher than any 23' product I have personally tested)....our Gen III stuff works phenominal....and our customer service is well above average although no company is perfect and everyone can slip up now and again. And yes....our delivery and lead times have been the achilles heel of this company and I apologize for that but things are being put in motion right now that will have a very postive impact on that exact situation long term (we just moved to a brand new state of the art manufacturing facility). But you want to know the BEST part.....we actually CARE about the end user of our product....about our customer....enough to recently put out a public bulletin warning of a potential soft valve tip issue (and willing to reimburse ALL expenses involved which is unheard of in this industry) even though it has effected less than 2% of the heads shipped in the last 12 months. Guys that have been around awhile know that most companies would have tried to keep it hush hush....here we are telling all of you about it in the public forums and spending countless hours figuring out the best and proper way to get everyone handled that might have an issue.

And what really bugs me with the "Gary situation" is quite obviously he knows who I am and where I can be reached yet thru all of his "issues" I never once get a phone call from him personally....his son or nephew called me about 2-3 years ago when his head had an issue with combustion chamber volumes...and lets not even try and rehash that....the point is Im here on the boards....Im always a PM, an email, or a phone call away, yet not once will Gary pick up the phone and handle his affairs straight up going right to the source where problems can be handled effectively and efficiently....naaaah....let's just whine about it on the Internet. I asked politely 6-12 months ago to contact me directly if any of you have an issue....Gary included, yet it never goes that way. Its much more fun to have drama on the Internet. Is anyone of you on this board actually running an engine from Gary....I mean seriously because I'm sure alot of guys on this board would love to hear from you. I can drum up a few dozen satisfied AFR customers in a moments notice.....on this board and many others.

Now I realize that this may not have been my most memorable post (and I'm still being rather reserved mind you) but at some point there has got to be a line drawn in the sand.

For the sake of less drama and more tech....If ANY of you have an issue PLEASE contact our company and feel free to contact myself personally before you get on the Internet and complain about it....we just might surprise you and leave you feeling even that much better about your decision to go with AFR. Gary....assuming yet another issue befalls you I would really like to hear from you personally regarding whatever issue you may have....If my resolution isnt to your liking feel free to blast me and share it with everyone but I think it's only right you contact me first before posting more negative sentiment concerning our company. I mean really....is that too much to ask?? I promise I won't bring you an attitude....if there's an issue we will make it right and move on....less drama....more results.

We now bring you back to your regular programming....

Tony (formerly from NY)

PS....So guys, the next post you see Gary bagging on us, make sure you ask him if he's gotten in touch with me personally at AFR :thumbsup:
 
#30 ·
Even though Gary is a douche, some good tech has come from this post. Tony I don't think you even need to defend yourself, as your products speak for themselves
 
#31 ·
I have no dog in this fight...except that wolfplace just ordered me a set of BBC AFR heads.
Tony I appreciate that you feel the need to defend yourself and AFR, but I believe it's waste of your time. Anyone with a smidgon of sence can read between the lines on Gary's post's. There is always going to be a Gary. It goes with the territory.
AFR makes a top notch product and they have been doing it a long time. Tony, you seem like a stand up guy and a few of our mutual friends speak very highly of you.
 
#33 ·
This thread has been hard for me to get into.
Reason 1 is because I'm no expert.
Reason 2 is because I just have never been impressed with Gary's posts.
Reason 3 is because I know I can't afford to buy 5 sets of heads, dyno them all, tune for each set and then pick the winner.
That would cost more than I have in my whole engine! Were I to pay someone to port them......it would total more than my whole car!

Point here is, we all study the results we see. Then we ask questions. Then we do our research and with or without the help of our personal builders, we make a choice and live with it.

I'm very happy with my AFR 305's. My builder was a bit skeptical....due to the small runners, but was VERY impressed with the results given the fact that mine isn't a high end setup. All off the shelf stuff.

I got great help from AFR when I changed my mind on the springs......they swapped me the solid lifter springs for the roller springs. No charge.

I have no complaints. I also have nothing else to compare against for the above reasons.

700hp with a low CR 496 and high nines to boot, in a car that is driven to the track? How could I complain. Thanks Tony!

Ron
 
#34 ·
I wish you guys would stop beating around the bush and sugar coating everything. If you have something to say, spit it out! This is confusing me.

I complained about Tony's heads, but I complain about my wife, too, but I love them both. (The heads, not Tony. Don't take that personal, Tony.) I would and have recommended AFR's to anybody and everybody. I don't understand GOSFAST problem. He seems to think he knows something a lot of the rest of us don't. He doesn't! He may know some things that somebody doesn't know, and I appreciate that he takes the time to help those people. But he doesn't know something that other people don't know, and he doesn't seem to realize that.

About the header fitment thing: Why does GOSFAST think that is AFR's fault? Does he complain about the rod companies making rods that hit camshafts? Does he complain that all the blocks do not come clearanced for strokers? Does he complain about all crankshafts needing balancing?
Does he complain about camshafts hitting rods?
Does he complain about pushrods not being the right length for every engine?
Does he complain about no carb being jetted right for every purpose?
No! So why does he complain about the way AFR designs the exhaust side of their head?
Maybe the problem is that all the rest of the head manufacturers don't use the same pattern AFR does. Did you ever think of that Gary?
There is nothing wrong with the AFR head, but you do have to use your head when you want something out of the ordinary. It looks like Tony has designed a head that will turn 7000+ with a hydralic lifter cam. All I can say is,"What a deal!!!"

A few years ago, one Tiwanese capacitor company stole a formula for the juice that goes inside of capacitors from another company. The thieving company made millions of bad caps before they realized the the formula they stole was no good. Thousands of motherboards made by numerous manufacturers had used the bad caps. Only ABIT, as far as I know, stood behind their guarantee and sent out public notices and replaced bad boards. IBM, ASUS, and other big names did nothing. Guess who I'll buy my next motherboard from? And Tony has done the same thing with his product. You can't ask for more. I can guarantee you that it bothers him a lot more than it bothers GOSFAST the he has to recall something he made. But that's the way the world works when you trust your supplier to give you good parts. (I wonder if GOSFAST has ever noticed how many car recalls there have been? Does that mean he won't drive anymore?)

Keep up the good work, Tony. I hope I can buy another set from you before I die. (But counterbore that center bolt hole deeper and put a washer in it while you are assembling the heads. That way I won't have to do it.) And I do think that your product could use some advice as to plug heat ranges for alcohol and gas, suggested suppliers for rocker arms that fit your heads well, suggestions for valve setting on aluminum heads; stuff that people that buy your heads for the first time may not know. And you need to talk to the header people to get off their butts and stop using fixtures they designed back in the 60's. Heads are different now, they need to get with the program if they want to stay in business.

And I repeat: I love my AFR 210's. Get a 406, UDHarold's 501C2, AFR 210's, 3.73 gears, 10:1, and go have some fun. You won't regret it. "I don't need no stinking big block."
 
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