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At last,,, RFD, Profiler, AFR, 555 head test

59K views 60 replies 26 participants last post by  onebad82z 
#1 ·
Hi All
Finally,,,,, :hurray:

Here are the results from the head tests on Mike's engine :beers:
Old threads for some history
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=294585

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=316326


The first attachment is the RFD heads, second is the new Darin Morgan Profilers & third is the all new AFR heads
Note that the AFR head is untouched as it comes off the CNC & has 45° seats
Both the RFD & Profiler are 50° seats
All have a 2.350 intake, RFD & AFR have a 1.88 ex & Darin's Profiler has a 1.850
And just to be clear before it comes up,,,,
I will personally guarantee that this AFR head was not tweaked in any way to gain favorable results, no hand blending or modifications of any kind

I would have to say all three heads are pretty impressive
I would like to see the AFR as well as the Profiler with a different cam
All three would benefit from a better intake without question
The RFD heads were run with a cam designed specifically for them,
The Profiler & AFR were run with three different cams including the one designed for the RFD heads & the differences were minimal
The Comp lobes made the worst power in the Profilers & best in the AFR but the exhaust lobe is not what I would have chosen for either head

The surprising cam was one borrowed from Jim Moore with less lift by a bunch especially on the exhaust side but made great power

Cam specs for those that need to know :D
Bullet & Crane I measured, Comp is advertised because I don't have the measured results in front of me but it was very close as I recall as were the others to stated specs

Crane meas.
R268-4381-2S2-12-IG
300- 268- 186- .438
308- 276- 194- .420
Gross 788/714

Comp adv
RX 1810/1814
302- 269- 189- .470
310- 277- 196- .470
Gross 846/799

Bullet
R294/470 meas 295 264 188 .4700
R311/465 meas 313 280 201 .4650
Gross 846/790

All in all it has been a long haul pounding on this poor thing but it is still in one piece so life is good

Special thanks to all involved & especially to Mike who has been so patient with this & allowed all the testing on his engine
Now maybe I can get back to doing something that actually makes me some money,,, :eek:

--------RFD------------Profiler------------AFR
 

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#3 ·
Ultimately, this motor makes the same power as the very first rendition?

Impressed with the AFR's...no work, and with in 20hp of the "exotic" heads!

Thanks for posting...nice to see how this motor cam along right from the start.

Good luck Mr. Foster - looking forward to some track time :thumbsup:
 
#6 ·
=
An as cast head done by Darin ???
You are kidding right,,, can't believe you even asked that l:)

All the heads are CNC ported with the RFD & Profiler massaged a little
To be clear the RFD head was designed by Curtis, the Profiler by Darin & the AFR by Tony
All are copied after design by the CNC
Both the RFD & Profiler had some hand massaging done after the CNC to bring them more in line with what the original design was

The Profilers are the set that pics were taken of at the Chicago show & are up on Chad's site
The AFR's are Tony's newest creations & the only one's in existance right now but should be available in the near future

I will put up some pics of the AFR's later they are still on my camera.
Curtis asked that I not post pics of his ports so I must honor that

If I had the time to play with more cams for each head I know any one of these is capable well over 1000HP in a 555 compression engine with a different intake

Tony was very "tempted to massage" his but felt most would like to see what comes out of the box as delivered to everyone so that is what was used
 
#7 ·
Congratulations on some killer testing Mike AND Mike! I know how much work has gone into this bad boy to test all of this stuff....and I'm just glad to know it was someone else doing it all!

Most folks don't know how much goes into a test like this. Just lining up the parts and getting all those combinations to fit is a huge undertaking. Set up three different cams, juggle valvetrain geometry, ensure intake fit and match etc etc etc......all while trying to make a living!!

Thanks for all the work...this is really neat stuff. It also shows just how hard it is to get power like this and hard you have to fight for every little bit after a certain point!


JIM
 
#8 ·
Hi Mike, been having fun? lol This stuff would have killed a lesser man.

Question, were all the cams on a 112? Readers might wan't to know.

Also why was the water temp so much colder on the AFR run? ( over look, or just plain had enough and called it close lol ) I agree cam was not happy the bsfc was higher. All in all pretty stout 555. Going to be fun.
 
#10 ·
Hi Mike, been having fun? lol This stuff would have killed a lesser man.

Question, were all the cams on a 112? Readers might wan't to know.

Also why was the water temp so much colder on the AFR run? ( over look, or just plain had enough and called it close lol ) I agree cam was not happy the bsfc was higher. All in all pretty stout 555. Going to be fun.
Hi Tom,,
Not really but you know the story :D

Yes all were on a 112 & the Comp was moved from 108 to 106 to 110
It liked 108 best
I would really have liked to have a slower lobe on the exhaust closer to the intake at .200 but it is what it is.

I left the pump running before the last test when I put the cam back to 108 & just did not feel like waiting for it to come up,,, it was getting late & I had dyno burnout :D
Probably worth a few HP but the oil was close enough so I ran it
I almost did one more to back it up but,,,,, figured the neighbors needed a break :D:D
 
#12 ·
the profiler seems to have a slightly better bsfc number than the afr( and a lot better bsfc at peak torque) yet it makes less power.

could the higher peak power number be because the engine was so much cooler (about 30-40 degrees) with the afr heads?

also noticed the rfd heads had the worst bsfc. Im guessing its a lot bigger head per port volume?

can anyone give breakdown on cost of these heads?
 
#13 · (Edited)
the profiler seems to have a slightly better bsfc number than the afr( and a lot better bsfc at peak torque) yet it makes less power.

could the higher peak power number be because the engine was so much cooler (about 30-40 degrees) with the afr heads?

also noticed the rfd heads had the worst bsfc. Im guessing its a lot bigger head per port volume?

can anyone give breakdown on cost of these heads?
What higher power numbers are you talking about?
The RFD head made the best power & no it was not a bigger head
The RFD & the Profiler are a measured 372cc's
The AFR is advertised as 385 but I did not have time to measure or flow it
I will do both when it comes off but would bet it is between 380 & 385 so it is actually the slightly larger head of the three
Also all three heads were set at 118-119cc's chamber volume measured.

The engine was not 40° cooler the measured water temp in the tower was, look at the oil temps which are measured at the filter.

Bottom line you could throw a hankie over the AFR & Profiler power numbers, you are looking at less than 1% difference

I would say the RFD head made about 10lb ft & 25HP more on average & as I said you could probably tune any one of these to the same or very close to the same power if the cam were correct which is pretty damned impressive given all the changes.

When it comes to power I do not live & die by BSFC numbers they are a measure of how efficiently the engine is using the fuel & trends may tell you there is more power there & may tell you which way to go,,
But just like the air/fuel ratio you give the engine what it wants so,,,
I do not tune an engine to either I tune it for what it wants power wise,,, unless you are going around in circles & have to worry about consumption :D

In fact I could take this same engine, lean it, make less power with "better" BSFC numbers

As far as cost it would not be my first question at this level but it is pretty much a wash with equivalent parts, none are exactly "entry level" heads ;)

If you are wanting pricing let me know, I am a WD for all of them as well as Brodix which BTW I would have loved to add to this test but the owner of the engine may want it one of these days so,,,,, we had to stop somewhere :D
 
#15 ·
Hi Bryce
Thanks,
Already answered above but it was because I forgot to turn off the pump when I was changing the cam timing
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2828686&postcount=10
Again, look at the oil temps
The water temp was the tower temp, the engine was off less than 5 minutes between the tests & had just had about 5 or 6 pulls so it was not exactly cold ;)
 
#17 ·
Very nicely done Mike and Mike.

What was the approx. swing in power on the Profiler and AFR heads with the different cams. I wouldn't think they were too much different?
 
#18 ·
Awww c'mon Mike.....Aukai can just let you use it as a dyno mule! We can test heads and cams all day long!

It won't be pure back to back......but we DO have a Brodix 3Xtra Oval port test coming up soon on some other guys pump gas 555"!!! Might even use one of these same cams............

JIM
 
#20 ·
Mike,

Thanks. That is about what I figured on power difference. Wouldn't have figured the Crane cam would have been the best on the Profilers knowing how Darin does things.

Does make me think there is something going on upstream or downstream that isn't quite happy. At the same time it still makes killer HP for true pump gas, so it can't be that bad!

Any chance of flowing the Profiler and AFR heads with the intake and noting the % loss at each lift point? :D
 
#21 ·
June 5th is my next race and I'm going to put it in a back half 3 pedal 68 Camaro that has a compression 555 running 9.11s-9.20s. Then we will see some more representative track numbers than in my 4k lead sled. So time is short. I would like to change the intake but stock hood clearance is an issue.
On a side note we won our bracket last night with the Camaro. Not it's best night but averaged 1.28-1.30 60s 9.24 best ET. Very humid as we were expecting a front and sever weather was closing in......
 
#22 ·
I wanted to make this a separate post. Mike has been THE GREATEST to work with. I can put engines together but would not trust myself for one of this caliber which proved to be a wise decision. There may be a few pulls on the clock but I'm getting an engine that I know is going to run well. If a problem was found it was fixed, not all vendors stood up 100% for their products that had to be sent back. Mike dealt with all of them. I will be getting a very fine piece of machinery that I know the builder is (very tired of seeing) proud of. He also stands up for his product. which is King with me. Thanks Mike:thumbsup:
Aloha Me
 
#25 ·
I wanted to make this a separate post. Mike has been THE GREATEST to work with. I can put engines together but would not trust myself for one of this caliber which proved to be a wise decision. There may be a few pulls on the clock but I'm getting an engine that I know is going to run well. If a problem was found it was fixed, not all vendors stood up 100% for their products that had to be sent back. Mike dealt with all of them. I will be getting a very fine piece of machinery that I know the builder is (very tired of seeing) proud of. He also stands up for his product. which is King with me. Thanks Mike:thumbsup:
Aloha Me
Thank you Mike & you are very welcome,, been a long road but what the hell,, maybe the light I am seeing at the end of the tunnel is not a goddamn frieght train heading towards me,,,, :beers:
 
#23 ·
Now just hold on a gosh darn minute there Pilgrim....what makes you think you get to get your motor back?

We aren't finished playing with it yet!!

Wish I had sent a Super Victor out to play with...but truthfully none of them are having trouble hanging on after peak!


I think the cam was a surpise for all of us. I expected them to really respond to the added lift and aggressiveness.

I guess it's going to take a gi-normous cam to make them happy....and it again proves if the heads are good you don't need a crazy cam!

JIM
 
#24 ·
Now just hold on a gosh darn minute there Pilgrim....what makes you think you get to get your motor back?

We aren't finished playing with it yet!!

Wish I had sent a Super Victor out to play with...but truthfully none of them are having trouble hanging on after peak!


I think the cam was a surpise for all of us. I expected them to really respond to the added lift and aggressiveness.

I guess it's going to take a gi-normous cam to make them happy....and it again proves if the heads are good you don't need a crazy cam!

JIM


And that these damn things do not read the same magazines or frequent the same internet sites we do,,, :sad:
Worse yet they do not even know how to use Desk Top Dyno,,,, :D

Looking forward to your tests with the Brodix heads, I expect it to be right there :cool:
 
#26 ·
And it wasn't long ago that 800 pump gas HP was pretty good....now with these heads from Tony, Darin and Curtis....it looks like 800 is going to be *squishy cam* territory...in fact...we did that with last year's 555" project and the Dart 335's. Heck..we did it with a flat tappet!

And for the *TQ* crowd...725+ lb ft is going to definitely set you back in the seat!

I can only hope my project gets in the game this far!


JIM
 
#28 ·
And it wasn't long ago that 800 pump gas HP was pretty good....now with these heads from Tony, Darin and Curtis....it looks like 800 is going to be *squishy cam* territory...
JIM
Jim,

My cousin Bret and the guys at Jenkins just did a 572 pump gas 10:1 with
a small 600 lift "squishy" cam and made 830hp, .. yea, it really can be done,
a real street cruzer making 800+ !!!!

Curtis
 
#27 ·
Thank you very much for doing this test. it is nice to see back to back to back test like this one instead of a bunch of conjecture and hot air like is normally the case.
 
#31 ·
This is the type of test we should see in the magazines; maybe one would buy the results and print them along with pics.

Mike and Jim ought to start their own magazine since the tests they do is better than anything I have seen in a publication in a long time.
 
#32 ·
"Mike and Jim ought to start their own magazine since the tests they do is better than anything I have seen in a publication in a long time."


Your right John, I was trying to get Mike to call Jim and combine our endeavor with his for an article :D But I think all of that writing has to be about as hard as working on the engine.

Carl wrote:
This engine with it's issues has tied up a lot of Mikes time that he probably will never get paid for but in the end aukai will end up with a top of the line engine.

Carl thanks for pointing this out. I have been eluding to it but wasn't saying it right. You are absolutely correct. This build shows Mike's character and how he does business. It won't go out until he is happy with it and it's running right.
 
#33 ·
Mike,

Thanks for posting the info -- excellent testing! Its rare that we get such good comparison information on these forums.

Sorry if you already answered this, but what about chamber volume? I assume that there were some minor variances between heads? Did you CC them?
 
#34 ·
Mike #1.. Nice real world testing:thumbsup:
I know this must have been a PITA but shows alot about your character and customer service/satisfaction.
Mike #2.. You have a very impressive engine, think you can handle it ;)
Very nice and way to be patient :thumbsup:
Shawn
 
#35 ·
Hi Shawn, I eagerly await the opportunity to give it my best shot.:thumbsup:
 
#36 · (Edited)
All three heads are a measured 118-119cc's
The intake port volumes are 372cc on the RFD & Profiler measured & advertised at 385 on the AFR. I have not poured the AFR yet they are coming off tomorrow

Here are the pics I said I would post

============== AFR's

















=========And the Profilers
















 
#37 ·
Interesting combustion chamber differences and plug placement.

Chamber shape is like port volume...it's not just the cc number...it's where those cc's are!

During the testing...did you notice any distinct burn patterns on pistons or chambers to indicate different efficiencies?



JIM
 
#39 ·
Interesting combustion chamber differences and plug placement.

Chamber shape is like port volume...it's not just the cc number...it's where those cc's are!

During the testing...did you notice any distinct burn patterns on pistons or chambers to indicate different efficiencies?



JIM
Hi Jim,
AFR's are still on the engine but here are the Profilers, the pistons look just like this
This thing looks really good :thumbsup:



 
#41 ·
Hi H----
Yes I think a vacuum pump would be worth a bit as it does have 043 rings but the oil ring is a custom with a bit more tension so most likely not as much as a full "low tension" set
The last compression 540 I did with the light tension 043's lost 40 or 50HP when I took the belt off the pump as I recall but it was also a bit higher in RPM,, I think peak power was around 7800

Maybe I should have a big head auction :D
I even have this real ugly set of heads someone sent me to finish,,, :D:D
Hope to get started on them soon now, I have a bunch of stuff that is way behind after all this playing around
 
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