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REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

170K views 281 replies 91 participants last post by  LevonH 
#1 ·
REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Since i have seen another 3-4 more cam failures here in T/C over the past month or so i thought i would re-post my UPDATED VERSION of my original post on trying to prevent or at least reduce the chances of NEW CAM FAILURE which includes some additional items & some new info too.

Please feel free to coment and or add any additional info that may be helpfull in preventing a cam failure for anyone installing a new cam here in T/C.

Scott

Some important things for new cam installs that are not always done or even considered that are " MUST DO PROCEDURES" for all my cam installs which i feel are vital to avoiding new cam/lifter failures. (See below for replacing a bad cam with the motor in a car without tearing the motor down for cleaning and insp of bearings etc.) This is a last resort thing to do which i don't recommned but it can be done successfully if done properly in many cases as i state below.(SEE BELOW THE CAM INSTALL PROCEDURES & DIRECT LUBE LIFTER INFO FOR THE DETAILS OF REPLACING A CAM WITH THE MOTOR IN THE CAR)

NOTE;MY CAM INSTALL PROCEDURES ARE FOR STOCK/MILD/TO FAIRLY HOT FLAT TAPPET HYD (HYD ROLLER TOO JUST TO BE SAFE)/SOLID CAM INSTALLS IN SBC & BBC AND THE USE OF LIGHT PRESSURE VALVE SPRINGS FOR CAM BREAKIN IS "NOT REQIRED". BUT FOR HOT/LARGE HIGH LIFT LONG DURATION ALL OUT PERF CAMS WITH HIGH SPRING PRESSURES AND HIGH RPM USESAGE THE USE OF LIGHTWEIGHT SPRINGS FOR BREAKING IS REQUIRED.

* FRESH 10w-30 (or 30wt if warm enough) OIL & FILTER (long style AC PF35 or equivilent) prior to startup.

NOTE: SHELL ROTELLA OR CHEVRON DELO 400 OILS ARE GREAT OILS THAT ARE USED FOR DIESELS THAT COME WITH ADDITIONAL ANTI WEAR ADDITIVES THAT BENEFIT FLAT TAPPET CAMS THAT ARE NOT IN MOST OF TODAY'S GASOLINE MOTOR OILS.

* Always use a Filtermag (Very strong magnet) on the oil filter to trap metalic debris.(See Filtermag website for details)

The Filtermag is pricey at 50-75 bucks but its cheap insurance/protection against a bad cam in your new $3k-5k motor/investment by trapping any metal contamination from the oiling system in the oil filter.(See Filtermag website for details,i think it's a great product IMHO)

* You can also remove the oil filter bypass valve and plug it with a pipe plug(either 1/4 or 1/2 inch plug?) to force all oil through the oil filter. But keep in mind to never rev the motor up too high untill the motor & oil are up to operating temp or you could distort or blow the oil filter altogether.

* VERY IMPORTANT to inspect the cam lobes and lifter bottoms very well with a magnifying glass for any imperfections that look like they could scrape or dig before installation. If any imperfections are found on cam or lifter/s either use crocus cloth to smooth the rough area/s out or replace the cam or suspect lifters,if needed show to machinest for advice.

* Lube the cam lobes with a lot of moly lube(I prefer Crane's version) including the fuel pump lobe/ecentric & dist gear.

Note,DO NOT USE THE RED COLORED CAM LUBE LIKE COMP CAM USES,IT'S TOO THIN AND RUNS OFF. ONLY USE THE GREY COLORED MOLY LUBE LIKE CRANE CAMS USES WHICH YOU CAN BU SEPERATELY FROM THEM,THE RED STUFF IS NO GOOD AT ALL.

* Also,VERY IMPORTANT to put some moly lube on the camshat inbetween the lobes .This so when the motor heats up the moly lube inbetween the lobes on the shaft will thin out and be thrown off as a mixture of oil & moly lube back onto the lobes & lifters. The cam & lifters are lubed/oiled by oil thrown off the crank and from oil pumped to the lifters and oil thrown off the cam while it's spinning too.

Note-do not use the moly lube on the cam bearings,only use std motor oil for the cam bearings.

* Put plenty of moly lube on bottoms of lifters,no moly lube on sides of lifters,use only oil there.

Note-check lifter bores for scratches,dings,etc and if any questions show to a reputable machinest to verify ok to use before assembly. You may be able to use crocus cloth to clean up any rough lifter bores with the machinests approval.

* See below(bottom of cam install info) for my take on the DIRECT LUBE LIFTERS.

* Pour plenty of motor oil over the chain & sprokets.

* Use moly lube on the pivet balls in rockers but only use motor oil on the pusrod to rocker interface as the thick moly lube can impead oil flow to rocker at startup esp if its cold out.

* VERY IMPORTANT to adj valves with intake off. This is because when you adj the valves at least half the moly cam lube is wiped off the lobes while doing the adj and it MUST be re-applied post valve adj or you are asking for trouble. I use my finger/s and any other smooth item i can find to reach through the slots on the block to re-apply the moly lube to the lobes you can get to,this is very imprtant to do and is almost always overlooked.

* After you re-apply the moly lube to the lobes post valve adj pour a bottle of either GM EOS or Crane engine break in lube over the entire camshaft where ever you can through the slots in the block and through dist shaft onto cam gear too. This is added start up protection and the ballance of it will go into the oil pan. Also pour a little onto the rocker arm pivot balls.

*After motor is assembly is complete prelube motor with correct tool that seals off dist shaft for proper prelube of lifters,etc. Remember to rotate motor while doing pre-lube.

* Fill coolent (50/50 mix of antifreeze & distilled water) through thermostat opening in intake. This is so you can push out all the or most of air in the block. This also allows you to fill the coolent up to the point when it alomost overflows the intake so it will contact the thermostat for startup. This eliminates the BIG PROBLEM of overheating the motor before the stat opens because there is no coolent touching the stat,only air and the stat takes much longer to open this way thus overheating the motor and oil in the process. Use a 180 high flow stat too.

* Have a 20 inch box fan(2 if poss) running full speed set high enough to blow cool air directly into the radiator for the entire cam breakin period. This will help a lot in keeing things cool for cam breakin. Have the car out doors if possible for better fresh air flow during cam breakin.

* Pre fill the carb if possible to minimize cranking prior to startup which could wipe most of the moly lube off the lobes/lifters before startup which is not a good thing.

* Make sure to get the timing right the 1st time so it fires up fast with minimal cranking time.

* Uppon startup get the motor to approx 2200-2500 rpm ASAP (min of 30mins-max-40 mins) and crank in plenty of intial timing to avoid retarded timing that will make the motor run much hotter than it normally would. Remember the stock timing specs are no good when using any type of perf cam. Most mild to hot perf street cams need apporx 14-18 deg btdc intial timing (with vac adv plugged) to avoid being too retarded. Timing does not have to be set perfect for cam break in,just make sure its not too retarded or motor will run hotter.

Note - Keep an eye on the oil pressure during entire cam breakin period as the moly cam lube can at times (though not often) partially or fully clog the oil filter
which will result in a small or drastic drop in oil pressure. If this happens and the oil pressure drops below lets say 30psi @ 2500 rpms i would shut it down and change the oil filter then proceed with finishing out the ballance of the cam breakin time period. I would use an AC PF35 truck filter(or equivilent) that has the extra capacity to help avoid a moly clogged oil filter. I would not recommend Fram oil filters as they have been noted in the Team chevelle site for collapsing when oil filter bypasses are blocked off and also for clogging easily with moly lube durring cam breakin according to members on the site.

* After the 25- 30 min cam breakin is completed shut it down and change the oil and filter on the spot while the oil is hot and all the contaminants are still suspended in the oil.

Note 1-use 10w-30, 30wt (if warm enough),or Shell Rotella T 15w-40 & another bottle of gm eos or crane motor breakin lube/and the filtermag for this post cam breakin oil change. Run this oil only 200-300 miles max and change the oil & filter again,then return to your std oil change schd & oil you normally use along with your Filtermag.

Note-2 ;Another late entry,use Chevron Delo and Shell Rotella Diesile(SP?) 15w-40 oils if your running a flat tappet cam because they have the most anti wear additives in them when compaired to most of todays oils which have removed the anti wear additives of the past that are vital to the longjevity of flat tappet hyd/solid cams esp when running higher spring pressures. I contacted the Shell engineers through their website to ask them if the their diesel oil was ok for use in our muscle car motors and they highly recommend the 15w-40 Rotell T for any older SBC/BBC muscle cars running a flat tappet cams because of the additional anti wear additives for the flat tappet cams and it great shear resistance that the big rig motors need pulling heavy loads.

Scott
 
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#54 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

This wasn't a new cam. Engine had been sitting for about 2 yrs. I started it back up with rotella oil and after about 5 minutes I noticed a water in oil leak. Shut it off and tightend my intake bolts more and changed the oil. All was good for about 19 miles. So, guess it was the water leak, then used 5-30w oil after that.....????
Anyother additives good to use? Marvel,STP,Rislon?
Got your message. Will be flushing tonite

Rick
 
#55 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

I've got a question. I'm installing a new cam and lifters in a small block. Should I use the stock rockers during cam break-in or can I use a new set of 1.6 roller tipped during cam break-in? It has stock springs and the cam is pretty mild, .444 lft and 204/214 @050.
 
#56 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Hey Scott,

Great thread man!! I just recently saw it and have been reading through it all. I have a few questions for you on my rebuilt and new 396 BB which is in my 68 Camaro that I need to do a break-in within the next couple days...

The motor is a mild street type 396 BB motor with a New Comp Cams 268 Xtreme Energy Camshaft. The motor shop that rebuilt the motor recommends to use the Chevron Delo 15/40 Diesel oil to break-in the engine.

However, over the last few days, I have talked to about 3 different Comp Cams tech guys and they all had a different opinion on what to run...

The very First Comp Cam Tech told me to run the Shell Rotela T oil in a 15/40weight for the break-in with either the GM EOS or the Comp Cams Part # 159 oil additive.

The 2nd Comp Cam Tech I spoke to said to run the Valvloine VR1 in a Straight 50 weight oil for break in since it has the ZDDP additive. This second tech told me that the Valvoline VR1 oil instead of the Delo Diesel oil said that the Delo oil no longer has the anit-wear additives that it used to as of March, of 07. He told me that it was removed due to the new stricter emmissions diesel laws. The same tech also recommened running the Valvoilne VR1 20/50 oil for normal driving after the motor has been fully broken in. He also agreed on the GM EOS or Comp Oil additive # 159.
One of my questions is if a VR1 in a 50 weight is too thick for a motor break-in?

The last Comp Cam tech said to run the Chevron Delo Diesel oil in a 15/40 weight just as what my engine builder said with the EOS or Comp # 159...

As far as the oil filter, the motor came with a NAPA filter that the shop had already installed. Do you think that filter will work well for a proper break-in? Or do you recommend a different type of filter? The NAPA filter is a long style, not sure if it makes a difference between the longer or shorter stlye oil filters?

With all the different opinions about weight and brand from the Comp Cams Tech guys, Im in need of some help from guys like you who have much more experience.

After hearing my story, what would you recommend for me to do? :confused:

Thanks
-Joe
 
#57 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Joe,dont use 50wt for breakin,i feel its too thick for best flow/crank through off for proper cam oiling on startup.

As for using the chevron or shell, both of those 15w-40 diesel oils are fine to use but try to find the older CI reated oil & not newer CJ rated oil. I say this because the older CI has more ZDDP for better cam/lifter protection then the newer CJ oil that has reuced ZDDP lvl's due to new 2007 epa/gov regs. But the Shells engineer i emailed stated the newer CJ rated oils still have just enough ZDDP in them to protect flat tappet cams .

Scott
 
#58 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Joe,dont use 50wt for breakin,i feel its too thick for best flow/crank through off for proper cam oiling on startup.

As for using the chevron or shell, both of those 15w-40 diesel oils are fine to use but try to find the older CI reated oil & not newer CJ rated oil. I say this because the older CI has more ZDDP for better cam/lifter protection then the newer CJ oil that has reuced ZDDP lvl's due to new 2007 epa/gov regs. But the Shells engineer i emailed stated the newer CJ rated oils still have just enough ZDDP in them to protect flat tappet cams .

Scott
Scott, Thanks for the advice man. I will definately do the break-in with the 15/40 oil and the EOS additive.

One other thing that I was wondering is about after the break-in on the motor... I know it is best to change the oil right away after the motor has been run and broken in with fresh oil and a new filter. What Im wondering however is if it is a good idea or not to continue the use of the GM EOS Engine Oil Supplement upon regular oil changes.

What do you think about continuing the use of the EOS Oil additive from GM in future oil changes? I was planning on using the 20/50 Valvoline VR1 oil which has that ZDDP additive in it.

Thanks,
Joe
 
#59 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

I read this thread and used Scott's suggestions for cam break in. Everything went great during break in! I did go a alittle overboard. I used Rotella oil, bottle of EOS, bottle of Cranes Breakin Lube (came with cam), and a bottle of STP. Maybe to much, but hey. I had about 10 to 12 revolutions on the cam due to starter problem.

The only thing I did different from what Scott mentioned is that I did not allow the motor to get over 185*. I sat there with a hose and misted water on the rad and it never got over 185*.

I encourage everyone to read the thread in depth!
 
#60 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Aaron,thanks for the credit on the cam breakin & oil info i sent you.

Just to keep the info correct i think you mis read or just plain forgot but getting over 180 deg f durring cam breakin is ok/expected . Especially when the motor is running & approx 2200-2500 rpm for 20-30 mins while sitting still ,180 deg f would be hard to to keep under thoses cond.

This is why i suggested having 2 20" box fans in front of car/radiator proped up on boxes going full blast into the grill /radiator for fresh/cooler air to help keep motor temps in check for motor & or cam breakin on 1st fireup.

Its when you get over approx 210+ durring cam breakin that i start to worry which was my point in the cam install info i sent you.

scott
 
#61 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Scott

Also thanks for all the help you gave me on timing and everything else!! I really appreciate it!!!
 
#62 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Aaron,no problem,does the motor run a lot better/seem stronger and idle better now that you got the timing where it belongs?

Scott
 
#63 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Yes, it does. I have not tuned on it much this week. My initial is at 18* and 36* at around 3300.
 
#64 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Just broke in my cam and everthing went fine.I used the red lube that came with the cam and used rottela oil.Started right up and ran at 2500 rpm for about 20 min with the inner spring removed.I did vary the RPMs from 2000 to 2500.The cam only sat in the motor for 2 days until start up so there was still plenty of lube on the cam.Then I changed the oil and filter put the inner springs back in and adjusted the valves with 1/2 turn from zero and everthing went fine.The motor runs great.I also filled the oil filter before I installed it.I have the alumitech with twin 11 fans so my motor never gets over 195 even running at 2500 RPM sitting still.
 
#65 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

PHEW/FINALLY GOT THE ANSWER which is pasted below.

It looks like the the lvl of Zn & P in the pennzoil gt 25w50 racing oil is .2%/2000ppm each which is great for our motors.

Now for the issue of is the this 25w-50 oil too thick for some of our motors esp if they are freshly rblt with tight clearances,oh boy it never ends.

BuT pennzoil does advertise/state that oil as having good low temp flow capabilites for if you dont have enough time to warm the motor up before getting into it like when starting a race.

Scott,

================================================== ======

No, the zinc level is ~ 0.2 vol.%(2000ppm)and the phosphorous level is the same.
The level of ZDDP in all API "SM" motor oils is mandated to a maximum of 0.0840 (840 ppm). The Pennzoil Racing oil (API "SJ")has more than enough anti wear additives to protect your engine.

Best Regards,
Technical Service
 
#66 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

GUYS,here is a post with info for a new ZDDP additive sold on ebay that looks very promissing if its tuely what its marketed to be .

If it is the real deal that mixes well with convetional & syn oils its truely the answer to what we need to protect our flat tappet cams for good,no more guessing and constant testing to see if the oil we are using still has the ZDDP lvl the mfg claims it does .

!!!!! THANKS SO MUCH TO " REDDOG/A FELLOW T/C'R " FOR POSTING THIS INFO.!!!!!!!!!

SEE REDDOGDS POST (directly below) AND THE EBAY ZDDP PRODUCT INFO (below Reddog's post).


SCOTT

=====================================================================

HERE IS REDDOG'S POST:

Here is what was sent to me by the folks selling the additive on ebay.


Hello Reddog,
Here is a test we just received on August 30th.... (I attached the test to your email... The answer is 8.1% Phosphorus and 10.9% Zinc.) This is for a four ounce bottle... that gets mixed in with 4 to 6 quarts of motor oil.... So you will have to do the math for your oil capacity..


We test every batch we sell and Harris Testing Laboratories in Houston, TX does most of our testing.. They can be reach at: Phone 713-237-9039...
Thanks..
Dave



File name: ZddPlusHarrisLab22.doc | File type: application/msword Download File - Need Help?

CERTIFICATE OF ANALYSIS

CLIENT PRODUCT: Lubricating oil

Navone Engineering, Inc. MARKS: Sample H

4119 Coronado Avenue, Suite 4 DATE RECEIVED: 8/30/2007

Stockton, CA 95204-2336 LAB NO: HH0708-3001

SUBMITTED BY: Navone Engineering, Inc.

SPECIFICIATION
METHOD TEST RESULTS MIN MAX
D-4951 Phosphorus, wt.% 8.1 XXX XXX
AA Zinc, wt. % 10.9 XXX XXX

Comments:

Date issued: _________________________

8/31/2007 Chemist
=====================================================================

HERE IS THE EBAY LINK/EBAY ITEM #/& AUCTION INFO FOR THE ZDDP ADDITIVE:

EBAY LINK - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ZPlus...QQcmdZViewItem

Heres the ebay iten number 180152917927 in case the link doesnt work.

After 70+ years of trouble-free, metal-metal engine protection, the US Government is eliminating ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate = Zinc and Phosphorus) from domestic motor oil. If your engine was designed prior to the 1990s, your non-roller lifters may require ZDDP in your motor oil to avoid premature deterioration. Don’t let your lifters run metal-to-metal. Keep ZDDP, via ZddPlus, in your motor oil. Add the 4 fluid ounce contents of this ZddPlus bottle at every oil change. Each 4 ounce bottle of ZddPlus contains more than twice the ZDDP of GM's EOS.

Why is ZDDP being removed from motor oil?

Because contemporary engines with roller bearings no longer require the additional protection of Zinc and Phosphorus. Not true for classic cars, tractors, muscle cars, etc. Also removing the Zinc and Phosphorus from motor oil increases the life of the catalytic converter. But classic cars, tractors, etc., don’t have cats! Also, as part of its ongoing effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the EPA has mandated that emission systems must have a service life exceeding 120,000 miles. To achieve this, automotive manufacturers have required oil suppliers to remove additive packages from motor oils that could reduce emissions compliance.

ZddPlus is not a typical oil additive. By adding a small 4 ounce bottle of ZddPlus at every oil change, an adequate amount of Zinc and Phosphorus will continue to protect your classic engine. ZddPlus simply maintains the Zinc and Phosphorus that has recently been removed. ZddPlus — Don’t drive off without it!

How ZddPlus Works

When the pressure and temperature of a metal-to-metal junction increases, the compounds in ZddPlus instantly create an extremely thin, glass-like barrier that prevents the two metals from coming into contact with each other. For instance, when the engine is under a heavy load from racing, jack-rabbit starts, up-hill climbs, passing, etc., the area between the tappet and the cam shaft instantly becomes protected by the Zinc – Phosphorus created barrier. When the engine is not stressed, the ZddPlus simply remains dissolved in the motor oil. ZddPlus is like adding an insurance policy to your engine. It’s there when you need it.

How Much to ZddPlus Add

We recommend adding the entire 4 ounces of ZddPlus per 4 to 5 quart oil change. Just unscrew the cap and pour the contents of the ZddPlus bottle into the engine oil input of your vehicle. (Be sure to dispose of the bottle in a safe manner.) This will yield around the proper amount of Phosphorus and Zinc. Large capacity systems can use two bottles and the contents of the ZddPlus bottle can also be split for smaller engine oil capacities. --- This product is intended for Pre OBDII, off-road, and racing vehicles only.

--- For Off-Road Vehicles ONLY! ---

We’ll accept PayPal, MasterCard, VISA, American Express, and Discover Credit Cards, and Money Orders. See below for shipping info.

We’ll ship to anywhere in the lower 48 states for $5.00 US.. Two bottles ship for $7.50. Six bottles for $10.00. Shipping to Canada is $10.00 US. And we’ll ship to Europe and Asia for $20.00 via USPS Priority Air Mail. Please e-mail shipping questions to: carsounddave@davidnavone.com .
 
#67 ·
Re: REVISED 9/6/07 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

More ZDDP info this time on castrol oil.

CASTROL RESPONCE 1:

The new Castrol Syntec 20/50 has more than 1,200PPM Zinc.
Here is Castrol's email to me this AM.

Thank you for contacting Castrol,

The new formula Syntec 20W-50 for clasic cars is actually API SM. The
statement "Recommended for Classic Cars" should be visible in the middle of
the back

Note that the Zinc levels (actually the Sulfur and Phosphorus levels) in
the API SM / ILSAC GF-4 viscosity grades are defined by a table of
requirements but in basic terms 20W-50 is not held to the same requirements
as the lower viscosity grades (5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30); 20W-50 can be
higher.
Current Syntec 20W-50 (for classic cars) is actually a modern premium
quality API SM product that has been Zinc boosted to Zinc levels that are
reminiscent of Zinc levels from historic API categories such as SG when flat
tappet cams with high spring loads were common in the fleet. For reference,
note that the API SM category has the most rigorous passenger car engine oil
(PCO) test performance requirements in the history of the API PCO
categories.

The level of Zinc in the new Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which
will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a
flat-tappet cam engine.


We estimate that Castrol SYNTEC 20W50 Classic Car formula should be widely
available at retail locations by October 2007. We cannot disclose exactly
where the product is currently available, although it has been ordered by
several key customers. Unfortunately, we can only control when we ship the
product, not when our customers' inventory allows it to make its way to the
shelf.

Castrol Consumer Relations
__________________
SB406 ISKY 244/250@.050 Solid-Roller
Brodix RaceRite 200CC Heads
Holley 950HP/XE by Pro-System
TKO-600 5 Speed
Vintage Air II, Street Machine, Almost Daily Driven.
====================================================================


CASTROL RESPONCE 2: This is castrols responce to asking what lvl of zddp was in thier conventional & and semi syn blend for these rgades 15w-40 truck & suv oil(not diesel) & GTX 20w-50

Thank you for contacting Castrol,

The actual ZDDP levels for our products is proprietary information.

However, we can supply you with a list of our products that have a higher
level of ZDDP.

The following Castrol products have Zinc levels that are typical of API SG
oil:

1. Castrol Syntec 20W-50 (*NEWLY FORMULATED classic oil formula - see link
to website below for information on our new 20W-50 product)
2. Castrol SYNTEC 5W-40
3. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 10W-40 (product has been replaced by Castrol
Motorcycle 4T 10W-40)
4. Castrol Grand Prix 4T 20W-50 (product has been replaced by Castrol
Motorcycle 4T 20W-50)
5. Castrol GO! ATV 10W-40
6. Castrol GO! ATV 20W-50
7. Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (full synthetic, available @ BMW
dealerships)
8. BMW Long Life 5W-30 (full synthetic, available @ BMW dealerships)
9. Castrol GO! 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil
10. Castrol GO! 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil

If installing a new performance cam in an older performance vehicle, it is
important to:
* follow the installation recommendations provided by the cam
manufacturer
* use the recommended cam break-in lube
* prime the engine oil circuits
* use the recommended engine oil
. confirm valvetrain geometries prior to starting the engine with the
new cam

*
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/genericarticle.do?categoryId=82915470&contentId=7032644


Castrol Consumer Relations
 
#68 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

This is a responce to a post in t/chevelle with refference to somene having a bad cam.

I have been installing flat tappet cams for over 36yrs and i feel once in a while there could/is an issue with the product weather it be poor quality machining or poor quality cam/lifter core metals.

But with that said i also feel the there are more cam failures due to the little details that are either overlooked because someone is not aware/inexperienced to do those little details or they are just rushing being sloppy.

In the case of comp,i know there have been some slopy products at times but you have to realize comp is a widely advertised product and they likley sold /sell more cams then most cam companies . Now with that in mind the number of cam failures will be more for comp simply because they sell more cams them most cam mfg's to begin with so the amount of cam failureS simply goes up /increases right along with the increased sales.

And that's not to mention many people/car enthusiests installing comp cams are doing their 1st or 2nd cam install ever and do not have a lot of cam install or engine building experience which will effect the cam breakin outcome for a multitude of resons.

Some of the issues the 1st or 2nd time inexperienced cam installer could be overlooking are not using GM EOS or crane bresakin lube in the crankcase at startup,used the watery red comp cam lube that runs off insted of the sticky crane grey moly paste that adhears well to cam/lifters,over cranking of motor due to not setting up firing order or dist timing correectly,after startup they dont run enough initial timing with perf cam and the motor runs too hot overheating during cam breakin which overheats the oil/motor,not setting up a fan in front of the radiator to help keep radiator/motor cool during breakin along with misiting some cool water inbetween rad & fan if the motor starts getting too hot to cool it down some,put the heater on in the car on the highest temp setting to pull heat off the cooling system,dont bother to remove inner springs for cam breakin with a hot cam that had high spring pressures,dont prelube the motor at all or do it incrrectly when usning a drill and prelube shaft to oil pump that doesnt have the collor on it to presurize the lifter oil passages,dont inspect the cam/lifters closely for damage/dings/scratches/nicks etc that could wipe out a lobe/lifter that should have been smoother with crocus cloth of 600 papper prior to install,so on and so forth.

These are the little details i am talking about that i feel can COLLECTIVELY KILL A FLAT TAPPET CAM if you overlook many of them or are just plain not aware of these things that should be done or checked due to inexperience.

Lastly,i dont agree with the point stated there is basically no cam/lifter breakin,anytime you have 2 metal parts that are rubbing/scraping togther under fairly high loads from valve spring pressure and valve train in general there is a process of (for lack of better words )mating together that goes on between those parts. With that in mind anything you can do to smooth that process out like using moly cam lube on cam/lifters,GM EOS in crankcase etc will help the breakin between those metal parts and that where the ZDDP/Zinc & Phosphorus comes in to play here at times too. The ZDDP may not be a deal breaker but it sure can hurt because it's chemically activated by excessive heat like when durring cam breakin and that when the ZDDP can help protect the cam/lifter interface.

Yes,he ran ONE test trying to trash a cam and LUCKED OUT,he would have to run that same test in 4-5 diffrent SBC/BBC motors that may have varying lifter bore aln/angles along with maybe 25-30 cams using varying spring pressures to get enough data /results for it to be worthy of any conclusin at all,he was just lucky IMHO.

In summary if a flat tappet cam is installed & broken in correctly with proper oil & prelube along with running oil or an additive with plenty of ZDDP in it post cam breakin i feel that would greatly reduce flat tappet cam failures,not stop cam failures complete but definately reduce the chance of having a cam failure. But when people are running very hot flat tappet cams with higher spring loads then perf cams normally have on avg like when running dual springs you have to breakin the cam with outter springs only and pay very close attention to prelube of cam & motor prior for startup and running oil with plenty of ZDDP in it post cam breakin.

Scott
 
#69 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Guys,Here are 3 grades of conventional oil mfg by LUBRIPLATE that have pelnty of Zn & P to protect our flat tappet cams.

They are on 30wt/10w-30/15w-40 grades .

He also gave me data for his Penrite 20w-50 Classic Car Motor oil which is just shy of where we would like to see the ZDDP #s. But stp in red bottle or some EOS should boost that up to a safe lvl for mild valve spring pressures use with a mild perf cam.

He also offers a 15w-60(yes 60) Penrite Classic car oil that is just about where it should be esp if you want to be safe by adding 1 bottle of red stp to boost the Zn & P lvl a little. but i think your ok without the additional Zn & P with mild cam/spring pressures.

The distributor sells them online as buy it now in ebay,for orm his website,and from a phone order desk. His name/address/company name/website/and order phone # iare all listed below the 1st note pasted below showing the ZDDP lvl's in each of the 3 grades of oil.

So read the 1st note to see the Zn & P data on some of the oils he offers along with all his contact & website/order info below the Zn & P test data.

Then there is a 2nd note from the oil distributor that answers the question that no other mfg has answered for me yet which was are the ZDDP #'s you gave me for your Lubriplate super GPO & Pentire oils obtained from oil mfg & tested post 1/2007 to ensure its current ZDDP data which he stated we were ok on so check that out too.

So check this oil & info out and his website and let me & other t/cr's know what you all think.

Scott

=====================================================================
NOTE #1:

Hi Scott and thanks for the reply. Here is Zn & P test info I got from
> lubriplate that shows the Super GPO series is where you want it.
> it shows the following:
>
> GPO 10w-30 average over 2 samples, P=1176 ppm (0.1176%) Zn=1326ppm Ca=2322ppm
> GPO 15w-40 average over 5 samples, P=1199 ppm Zn=1288ppm Ca=2474ppm
> GPO 30 average over 1 sample, P=1248 Zn= 1249 Ca=2472

Here is the Zn & P info on the Penrite 20w-50, Zn=900ppm and p=700pp,it's lower then what you wanted.

Penrite 15w-60(yes 60) oil shows approx 1150ppm Zn & P,very cose to what you wanted.

> Thank you,
>
> Tony Teravainen
> Restoration Supply Company
order desk 800-306-7008
office 760-741-4014
cell 760-505-2670
fax 760-739-8843
www.RestorationStuff.com
Oils are sold on ebay too as "buy it nows".
=====================================================================
NOTE #2;

Scott,concerning the super GPO & Penrite oils,,they ran the lot numbers of the samples tested for Zn & P and they were all manufactured & tested post Jan 2007,thats good for all of us.

Thank you,

Tony Teravainen
 
#70 ·
Re: REVISED 10/15/07 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Pasted below is a little more oil info i got from Castrol when i asked for the Zn & P lvls in thier GTX 20w-50 conventional oil. We have been told the the ZDDP reductions are generally for the lighter oils but here is proof of just what i had been stating in the past that the zinc & P reductions havd also affected the heavier grades too as stated bt casrtol rep pasted below the dbl line .

But this is not the full syn 20w-50 that was recently re-formulated/boosted with Zinc & P for classic cars that has a min of 1200ppm ZDDP which is ok for flat tappet cams which i was also just re-stated by the castrol rep pasted below.

Scott
====================================================================

Unfortunately the information you are requesting in proprietary. The Castrol
GTX 20W-50 has had a reduction of zinc and is not recommended to be used in Classic
cars with flat tappet cams.

Although the exact amount of zinc is proprietary, the level of Zinc in the
new re-formualted full synthetic Syntec 20W-50 is a minimum of 1200 ppm, which will provide excellent anti-wear protection for the cam and lifters in a flat-tappet cam engine.


Castrol Consumer Relations
 
#71 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

GUYS/HERE IS AN UPDATE ON Lubriplate GPO 15w-40 that was tested by Blackstone which i just sent to the oil distributor that provided me with the ZDDP info from Lubriplate which i recently passed on to all of you.

Could be better/could be worse but really doesnt surprise me as just about none of the oils i have seen tested this yr meet the P & Zn lvl's the mfg's state is in them.

SCOTT
=====================================================================

Hi Tony,one of the our club members had the Lubriplate GPO 15w-40 oil tested for Zn & P by an independent lab and the results were significantly less then what Lubrplates #'s were. This is enough of an issue to be marginal with a non stock perf flat tappet cam with elevated valve spring pressures and thought you should know this for future refference. I think for stock to very mild flat tappet cam'd motors it's ok but it's marginal for higher perf flat tappet cam'd motors with high spring rates.

But on the possitive side one small hit of GM EOS would do the trick and this oil also has less detergent that are more in line with standard pass car oils then most diesel oils i had seen tested which is also a good thing when using it in gasoline motors .

Here are the lubriplate #'s for the gpo 15w-40 and then open the below note to view the lab test results.

(To restate the rec amount of Zn & P for perf flat tappet cams is 1200ppm-1400ppm/.12%-.14% - P & Zn )

Lubriplate GPO 15w-40 average over 5 samples, P=1199 ppm Zn=1288ppm Ca=2474ppm

Blackstone lab test rept results for P & Zn were P=835 ppm Zn=1030ppm Ca=2540ppm.

At 1st i thought maybe the lab test was not accurate but then i realized that there was only approx 2% variation from the test lab result for detegent and Lubriplates detergent #'s so that says to me that Blackstone SEEMS to be measuing accurate within in reasonable tollerances.

Lab = 2540ppm & Lubriplate = 2474ppm for detergent which is a small expected variation with this type testing which shows the labs testing was accurate to me.

Scott
 
#72 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

More oil info on DELO 400 LE CJ RATED 15W-40 DIESEL OIL from a fellow t/c'r that also a chemist by trade which now seems to have a lot less detergent (went from 3600ppm last test to approx 1500ppm this latest test) with plenty of ZDDP both being tested at Blackstone labs, Zn=1191ppm/P=1033ppm .

See below the dbl line for his info/note.

SCOTT

NOTE:Keep in mind the EOS added is 16 oz and thats why his calculatons are for 4.5 qts oil and not a full 5 qts with std short oil filter. But if you use the longer filter adding approx another .5 qt of oil to crankcase the Zn & P will be a smidge less but still more then enough to do the job.

===================================================================
Scott,

Well i have not been standing totally still on this oil issue. Although I have not made any progress with my contacts, I did have the Chevron Delo 400 15W-40 (CJ-4) oil analyzed. I have attached the report. I purchased 2 gal of this oil at AutoZone about 6 weeks ago. You can see that the Zn and P levels are good and consistent with Chevron’s MSDS and data sheet. I calculate that if I add 1 bottle (1 pt) of GM EOS to 4.5 qt of this oil, I will have 0.170% Zn and 0.151% P and be good to go. If I add 1 bottle (15 oz) of STP red to 4.5 qt of this oil I will have 0.144% Zn and 0.113% P, good for Zn and probably OK for P. The other good thing about this Chevron oil is the lower detergent level which should relieve some of the concerns about detergents interfering with the ZDDP. You can also see that the Blackstone folks are saying that this oil should be OK for a gas engine.

Wayne
 
#73 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

if the cam is running too far foward or backwards (check cam freeze plug location)in the block,the lifters won`t rotate like they should causing lifter wear (use thrust button)or you need to break in cam using the outer springs only then reinstalling the rest of spring after that...i`ve had bad crane cams in the past,i avoid them,i have had a CC drag race magnum solid cam in my camino for the last 7 yrs. using castrol GTX 20-50 oil & haven`t had a bad lobe yet. the car has been track run every weekend for the last 7 yrs. too !!:thumbsup:
 
#74 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

1st for KLAUS,BTW,castrol recently told me the gTX 20-50 now has lower lvl of ZDDP not enough to protect flat tappet cams so stay away from it . I rec using the pennzoil gt 25W-50 racing oil from jegs or summit,that will do a better job of protectong your flat tappet cam.

Now for the oil test results,

Hi guys,i bit the bullet and had Balckstone test the following and here are the results,Valvoline being low on ZDDP didn not surprise me at all.

The pennzoil gt oil came in fairly close the stated ZDDP lvl per mfg & is gret for flat tappet cam protection. The valvoline NSL & VR! were both crap for flat tappet cam protection,red stp was dead too but prior red stp tested in 2005 was great ,the new 2007 EPA/Gov regs killed the current red STP & most oils, the discontinued for now GM & AC DELCO EOS was good as usual.

Here are the results:

Keep in mind,1200ppm-1400ppm P/Zn are rec lvls to protect perf flat tappet cams.

SCOTT

================================================================

* VALVOLINE NSL 20W-50 - (P) 842PPM /(Zn) 973PPM /(DETERGENT)950PPM

* VALVOLINE VR1 20W-50 - 684PPM/763PPM/1630PPM

* PENNZOIL GT 25W-50 - 1483PPM/1676PPM/1901PPM

* GM EOS BLACK BOTTLE- 5059PPM/5850PPM/5,800

* AC DELCO EOS WHITE BOTTLE - 5183PPM/6095PPM/5,900

* STP 4CYL IN RED BOTTLE - 151PPM/171PPM/139PPM (WAS 2115PPM/3932PPM IN 2005)
 
#75 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

I may be telling my age .But the best cam lube is WHITE LEAD. It is scarce now days,
but you might luck upon some at yard and garage sales. Also old general stores that are
closing out or even old estate sales. I have been using it for over 50yrs. and still have
some.It was labled DUCH Boy. But rember it is dangerios use gloves and small acid brush,
a void geting it on your skin. One other note ,check that the retainer does not hit the
guide at max lift. thanks Olddog
 
#77 ·
Re: REVISED 5/1/06 Bad Cams/My Info To Hopefully Reduce New Cam/lifter Fails

Scott, Nice Job. Thank You for all of the great information. It is very helpful to all of us.
 
#78 ·
We have been using Valvoline VSOT for quite some time now...The oil tests have come back great!!... We even use it as a regular oil additive,and we have shown some very impressive "Used Oil Analysis" sheets... It seems to have a little bit of everything in it,Yes...it has been discontinued because it has good 'ole ZDDP in it..But there is a guy on Ebay that sells it cheap,about 5-6 bucks a bottle...If I remember..that's what we used to pay for it new...Just my 2 cents... Yes,nothing is as good as GM E.o.s....but this stuff is as close as I've seen... Take care of that Cam!!
__________________
 
#79 ·
For those who are building an engine with a flat tappet cam in the future you may want to consider having the lifter bores grooved with the Comp tool in the back of their catalogue. My shop has been using that tool for at least 4 years, starting with just the race engines to now where even a mild performance engine gets the bores grooved, both solid and hydraulic cams. I haven't had any low oil pressure complaints and (knock on wood) cam failures have been a thing of the past. All the mild combos get the 15w40 diesel oil and EOS, race engines get Joe Gibbs "BR" oil and soft break in springs for added insurance. For those who need to replace the cam and lifters without grooving the lifter bores, Crower makes hyd lifters with oiling channels to the foot, and of course everyone makes the EDM oiling solid lifters now, and they are reasonably priced. I agree with the Moly paste and good oil, but also believe that a constant flow of oil to help cool the cam and lifters while they're getting familiar with one another is important to break in success.
 
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