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How many LS6 Convertibles?

21K views 35 replies 23 participants last post by  Bill Pritchard 
#1 ·
Does anyone have the true production numbers for 1970 LS6 convertibles with 4 speed?
 
#2 · (Edited)
I found this, I'm not sure on the accuracy, might be right on and maybe not, I don't have a clue, just relaying it. I couldn't find anything on the 4 speed vert.

Feb 10th, 08, 9:16 PM
72SSConvertibleLS5

Tech Team

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 168


Re: Whats considered as the rarest Chevelle...
I did some research to find some sort of registry/list for Chevelles, breaking down the year/model
I found 3 of them.

There were 99 1969 Yenko Chevelles built and only 36 are known to exist today (Source Muscle Car Enthusiast Magazine

Dan Carr believes after doing extensive research about 95 1970 Chevelle SS 454 LS6 convertibles were built and only 26 REAL ones are known to exist today (Source Rick Nelson)

Dan Carr believes after doing extensive research about 70 1972 Chevelle SS 454 ("W" VIN code) convertibles were built and only 19 REAL ones are known to exist today. (Source "The List" (registry) in the convertible forum)
__________________
Troy (Wisconsin)
1972 Chevelle SS "W" VIN code convertible
1 of 21 still in existence
Pewter Silver Met./Black Stripes
M22 4

Rob
 
#3 ·
The production number of 1970 LS6 convertibles is not known


A rough calculation can be made with the Malibu numbers

about 290,000 coupes vs about 7,000 convertibles gives about 2.4 % of total

Of the 4475 LS6 Chevelles, 2.4 % of total would be 107 LS6 convertibles.

At least 100 LS6 convertibles made is not hard to believe.

Years ago, there were LS6 convertibles ads in Hemmings where they would claim
"one of 20 built" but they had no evidence for that claim.

Even with a very low production car like a Hemi car, there could be 2 % or more convertibles made.
 
#4 ·
Many people fail to read, or pay any attention to, the document that accompanies Dan Carr's great poster. He clearly states, "There is no way to know how many of the 4,475 LS6 vehicles were coupes, how many were convertibles, and how many were El Caminos." He goes on to explain that given the number of Malibu coupes, convertibles, and Custom El Caminos built that could be ordered with the LS6 and the individual percentages of the total that each represents (85.8% coupes, 2.1% convertibles, and 12.1% El Caminos), and given the number of LS6 options sold of 4,475, the "statistically-based estimate" results in 3,840 coupes (4475x.858), 95 convertibles (4475x.021 [my calculator says 94]) and 540 El Caminos (4475x.121 [my calculator says 541]). And as Dan states, "Of course, this technique is not infallible, but it is unbiased."

The same calucation method is used for all the numbers arrived at on his poster - be it 4-speed vs. TH400 cars or those with and without ZL2 cowl induction hoods. People that quote them as fact are misleading themselves and others just like people quoting they read the "L" on certain year/plant body tags indicate an SS optioned car.

It's like the term "scotoma" (incorrectly used instead of pareidolia) used in The Da Vinci Code to refer to the phenomenon of peoples' minds interpreting the same thing differently ("seeing what it wants to see"). ;)
 
#6 ·
.
"Quote
Years ago, there were LS6 convertibles ads in Hemmings where they would claim
"one of 20 built" but they had no evidence for that claim."

Yea and at one time you would see three for sale in one month. I always new that was a bogus number. I think the the number is more in the 250 to 350 range. If you look at LS5 Convertible production it doesn't follow the 2.1% rule even though the engine options are close in numbers.
 
#7 ·
But, LS5 option split per body style isn't known either. It can only be shown as a statistical possibility like the LS6. Given there were fewer LS5's than LS6's, the number for any given body style would, statistically, be less. Yes/No?

As noted, any numbers calculated based on percentage of each body style on the total possible would in all probability be incorrect, but at least the numbers are unbiased.
 
#9 · (Edited)
But, LS5 option split per body style isn't known either. It can only be shown as a statistical possibility like the LS6. Given there were fewer LS5's than LS6's, the number for any given body style would, statistically, be less. Yes/No?

As noted, any numbers calculated based on percentage of each body style on the total possible would in all probability be incorrect, but at least the numbers are unbiased.

Yes I agree the LS5 option split per body style isn't known either but, you could surmise It would be more probable that someone with the coin to order a SS vs a 6 Cylinder Malibu could more afford and be more likly to upgrade to a Convertible and add options.

As I would also assume that most bucket and posi options went to SS cars. I know there always exceptions to the rule and this is just my opinion.

Since we don't know and more than likly never will it's fun to debate.

My guess for the LS5 Convertible would be higher than the LS6 somewhere in the 400 to 600 range. Much higher than 2.1%. Even though they made less of them.:secret:
 
#8 ·
If you follow other GM A-body cars produced in 1970 you would also find that the Buick and Olds followers usually report numbers below 300 for the Stage 1 and W-30 convertibles. This doesn't prove anything other than observers/followers of the bigger C.I. engines that went into convertibles in the GM lineup in 1970 believe very few were produced relative to other GM models.

Big horsepower in convertibles in 1970 wasn't exactly what the market was clamoring for back in those days. GM wasn't ignorant to what was happening in the market with safety issues and mounting insurance costs. High horsepower coupled with a convertible was not where the market was heading. Horsepower dropped and convertibles ceased soon thereafter for quite a number of years.

I can understand why there were likely very few produced.
 
#11 ·
There are several member/reader cars in the registry that I am aware of. One is a regular poster and helps people all the time. His sign on should be a dead giveaway.

By the way, that "26 known to exist today" is an old figure though it has not increased by much.
 
#13 ·
I know this is an older thread but figured since I just found it I would post what I know. The LS6 is a lot rarer than anyone leads on or knows. My dad has a 70 LS6 that he ordered here from hotman chevrolet. The LS6 was not an option there are no radio or heater delete for racing or anything like that. My dad ordered his in July of 70 it took 4 months to get here. It was supposed to be a 375hp 396 car and when it got here the dealer poped the hood and said this is what took so long. They ran out of engines and had to find a replacement so it came with this. This car is 100 percent original LS6 with factory engine reinstall started using oil at 500 miles and dealership did dealer replacement engine. Still have the protectoplate and window sticker protecto plate shows 454 but window sticker shows 375hp 396. A friend of mine did research on it since he didn't belive the car was that rare and going through GM records working at transwest GMC he said according to the company there were around 30 el caminos, 60 convertables and the balance of 235 true factory cars are hard tops.
 
#18 ·
I know this is an older thread but figured since I just found it I would post what I know. The LS6 is a lot rarer than anyone leads on or knows. My dad has a 70 LS6 that he ordered here from hotman chevrolet. The LS6 was not an option there are no radio or heater delete for racing or anything like that. My dad ordered his in July of 70 it took 4 months to get here. It was supposed to be a 375hp 396 car and when it got here the dealer poped the hood and said this is what took so long. They ran out of engines and had to find a replacement so it came with this. This car is 100 percent original LS6 with factory engine reinstall started using oil at 500 miles and dealership did dealer replacement engine. Still have the protecto plate and window sticker protecto plate shows 454 but window sticker shows 375hp 396. A friend of mine did research on it since he didn't believe the car was that rare and going through GM records working at transwest GMC he said according to the company there were around 30 el caminos, 60 convertables and the balance of 235 true factory cars are hard tops.
The only thing I can dispute is there is a GM document that clearly states around the end of November of 69 that the 375Hp 396 (L78 option) would no longer be available. So I don't know how he could have ordered one with the L78 option in July of 70? There are No GM USA records that anyone knows of and the only GM records are GM of Canada records with any kind of stats so I don't see how he could have checked this out? If he's got access to these records you speak of I for one would love to see them and I'm sure they are a few others who would too. :beers:
 
#15 ·
sack98, welcome to Team Chevelle. That said, I think you have posted a lot of incorrect information for someone making their first post! To wit:

1. "The LS6 was not an option" Wrong. It was a regular production option, and LS6 was its order code.

2. "My dad ordered his in July of 70" Highly doubtful that any dealership would have accepted an order for factory production of a 1970 model car in July of 70.

3. "It was supposed to be a 375hp 396" It is widely known that production of the 375hp 396 was discontinued in the fall of 69.

And unless you'd care to post good, clear, high quality photos of both the car's ProtectoPlate and window sticker, I think your claim that "protecto plate shows 454 and window sticker shows 375hp 396" will be met with great skepticism.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Bill is right on..all known facts..cafefull what you post here!!
 
#16 ·
You might just be right Ron. GM quit building L78 cars once the LS6 came out in late 1969. GM didn't just go running around looking for engines because they ran out. They were actually pretty well organized. They probably stopped taking orders in May if not earlier. There was generally a 2-3 month lead time between ordering a car and actually getting it. Then again, what do I know. ;)
 
#22 ·
A friend of mine did research on it since he didn't believe the car was that rare and going through GM records working at transwest GMC he said according to the company there were around 30 el caminos, 60 convertables and the balance of 235 true factory cars are hard tops.
I don't know if the figures above are suppose to represent L78s or LS6s but either way, they don't add up. The above adds up to 315 cars while the L78 sold 2,144 units and the LS6 sold 4,475 units. Think you're a couple of fries short of a happy meal.
 
#23 ·
My dad thinks he still has a copy of the original build sheet that shows all available options in July of that year there is no option for 454 on it. I'm going to look and will post it up if I find it. It was rare enough at the time the dealership owner tried to take a 71 dad said no didn't like the single head light. Then called my dads insurance company and told them about the big motor to try to cancel his insurance so the dealership could keep the car.
 
#25 ·
I'm going to take it by "original build sheet" you're talking about the dealer order because if you are talking about the cars build sheet/broad cast sheet it would only tell you what options the car was built with and not all the options available to purchase. My advice is to post pix of all the paper work on your dads car. :beers:
 
#24 ·
Sack98 all this happened a long time ago (40+ years). Things may have been a little different than your father remembers. He could have ordered it in late 69 not 70 hince getting the LS6 not the L78. Post all info you have plus pictures of the car. The Build Sheet, Window Sticker, and POP will shed a lot of light on the subject.
These guys around here really know their stuff and just want to keep all info factual. They are here to help.

Welcome to TC!
 
#28 ·
The number of more than 100 built with both transmissions is a very realistic number. Ricks old number of 26 is a little light there are probally closer to 40 real Documented ones still out there . I know of well over 20 some of those well off the radar. I have done work on and supplied parts to quite a few of them.
As for the claim he ordered a 396 375 HP car and it was built as a 454 LS-6 that is in fact very true . I know of and have seen original order forms from several cars that were indeed ordered as an L78 and the order was upgraded to the LS6 as they were already in the system. The dealer on one of those contacted the buyer and informed him that the engine he had ordered was cancelled and replaced with a new High performance 454 and they would absorb the cost because of they delay. Another where they charged a $100.00 more to upgrade the existing order.. I think perhaps this member might have been thinking july of 69 which by his time frame would have fallen into LS-6 introduction.

It would be interesting to see the paperwork.

The idea of going fast with the top down has been arround since the Automobile was developed. Plenty of people ordered big engined convertibles in all forms and makes perhaps we will never know just how many were made but its not unlikely its well more that we can think of or imagine thru any form of calulation. The Chevelle was the cheapest of the GM A body convertible's and they built plenty for anyone who could buy one. They built 232 70 GS 455 Stage 1 convertibles, 264 70 442 W 30 convertibles, 168 GTO Judge convertibles,37 of which were Ram Air IV's the rest were all RamAir III's.
As the GTO was the third highest selling muscle car in 1970 behind the Chevelle SS396/454 and the Roadrunner . With that in mind would it make sence that the best selling muscle car and cheapest in the GM line would have the fewest High Horse convertibles NOT at All !!!! Perhaps when they empty out that Texas wharehouse where all of GM's Chevrolet records are stored we may know for shure some day.

The number of L78 convertibles for 1970 would be the least number because of the short window of build of those cars.

Jim
 
#31 ·
As for the claim he ordered a 396 375 HP car and it was built as a 454 LS-6 that is in fact very true . I know of and have seen original order forms from several cars that were indeed ordered as an L78 and the order was upgraded to the LS6 as they were already in the system. The dealer on one of those contacted the buyer and informed him that the engine he had ordered was cancelled and replaced with a new High performance 454 and they would absorb the cost because of they delay. Another where they charged a $100.00 more to upgrade the existing order.. I think perhaps this member might have been thinking july of 69 which by his time frame would have fallen into LS-6 introduction.
It would be interesting to see the paperwork.

Jim
The only problems I would have with it being ordered in July of 69 is the letter Dale posted clearly is dated October 30th,1969 and clearly states that the L78/L89 option is in the process of being canceled. It also states that as of the letters date dealers may now start taking orders for the LS6 option. Now two other points to throw out there are the two pilot cars (the green one built in December of 69 and the one sold through GM of Canada that was built in November of 69). So if the OP dad's car was ordered in July of 69 and took 4 months until it was delivered puts it right in the middle of these two pilot cars if not possibly built before the November pilot car. So would this not make it the first known LS6 built even before the November 69 pilot car? I'm sure there were plenty of L78 engines still in stock if not still being produced in July of 69 to fill this order for an L78 order. I would also think there would have to be some notation on the original dealer invoice to note it was upgraded to the LS6 option for warranty claims as if the protecto plate was lost there would need to be a paper work trail to let other dealers know of the upgraded option to the car. These points I bring up are only that and questions as I'm no expert on LS6 cars as Jim and a few others are. I have met Jim personally and respect Jim's advice and opinions and found his help invaluable to the restoration on my Malibu 400. So let's not get our panties in a bunch over my questioning Jim's statement as has happened to me in the past on here and I'm not going to be so nice anymore to those who do. With that said what do you all think about the points and questions I have brought up. :beers:
 
#29 ·
My comment regarding 26 known cars was fact at the time I made it and based on what was in my data base as well as several other researchers which was likely around 2003 so obviously those numbers will change with more research and new cars being found every year. It would be nice to see all the LS6 convertible researchers band together and work together to come up with more correct numbers as there are many cars that are only known by only a couple of people. The number is now substantially higher as well as some of those original cars have been proven to be frauds. Based on cars I have seen and/or inspected, there are considerably more fake cars then there are real ones today, that is fact. Buyers be VERY aware!
 
#30 ·
In another thread on the production of LS6 Convertibles, where the number of about 100 cars built was discussed , I also looked at the Hemi Convertible production.

Some of the Hemi Convertibles production numbers are known and I found that
even with very low production numbers of some Hemi cars, there were still convertibles built.
The most extreme model was one where 3 Hemi cars were built and one was a convertible.

1970 426 ci Hemi 'Cuda 652 hardtops and 14 convertibles 2.1%
1971 426 ci Hemi 'Cuda 108 hardtops and 9 convertibles 8.3%

Some may have been used as dealer showroom displays or demos, but people would order the highest HP even in a convertible.
 
#32 ·
Thanks Joe my refference to the time line is that the car being discussed would of had to been ordered in 1969 not 70 as he stated. Thats the only time frame that would work. After 42 years some peoples memory get a little fuzzy thats why I asked to see pictures as they would have dates to validate the timing. The one car I discussed I have known most of my life the original owner is a friend and I have to see if I can get a look at the doc's again with a camera or the car . Its been hidden away for years still wearing its Original red paint and a whopping 18,000 miles on the odometer.

Jim
 
#33 ·
Thanks Joe my reference to the time line is that the car being discussed would of had to been ordered in 1969 not 70 as he stated. That's the only time frame that would work. After 42 years some peoples memory get a little fuzzy that's why I asked to see pictures as they would have dates to validate the timing. The one car I discussed I have known most of my life the original owner is a friend and I have to see if I can get a look at the doc's again with a camera or the car . Its been hidden away for years still wearing its Original red paint and a whopping 18,000 miles on the odometer.

Jim
Yes I agree that is a time line that would work as the 70 time line would not work in anyway. Yes it'd be interesting to know when the car you've known all your life was built. Sounds like a cool car too.
 
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