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588" short deck bbc.

39K views 69 replies 22 participants last post by  Bizzquick 
#1 ·
I was almost set on building a 540, but i read a forum that said a 4.5" stroke in a 9.8" deck is easy.

i have a dart big m and would like to get callies compstar 6.385" rods, and a callies compstar 4.5" stroke crank. with off the shelf 1.120 CH wiseco pistons, i get a 9.755 stack.

for a really hot street deal, n/a, maybe a smidgen on nitrous, does this sound ok? the reason for wanting more cubes it to bring my shift RPM down and still make the same power. and also by making my combo slightly more streetable... when i say streetable i mean pump gas and license plates! that is all that matters!

what say you to this? i did some research, but most people say NO (in stock blocks), but no info on aftermarket blocks....

main concerns are excessive oil usage and rapid cylinder wear.

thanks for the help!
 
#2 ·
What cylinder heads you plan to use? You will want to make sure you are not too big or small for the cylinder head.

I really like adding inches for a street/race motor to keep RPM down, it actually works decent as a race motor also to save on valvetrain cost.
 
#5 ·
If I was considering a build with a displacement well over 540 CID using a standard deck height, I would likely be swayed by the comments above^ since I've heard a number of people say the same. Perhaps some of our resident professional engine builders will chime-in and comment on that.
 
#6 ·
Pump gas and license plates, eh? I take it this rig isn't going to put in much street time, mostly as a race machine that's street legal.
Dart Big M block - hard as hell, wear isn't an issue. Maybe on the pistons, but not really on the block, and you could probably address that issue with good performance coatings. You also have plenty of room to clearance the block, shouldn't be an issue with steel rods.
Most builders are building 'em now for racers wanting max cubes in a short deck applications. There are conventional heads that'll feed 'em fine, even in full tilt race trim.
Knock yourself out, sounds like a plan to me!
 
#8 ·
i will be using brodix bb-2 xtra's. i wouldn't mind doing the 4.375 stroke, but what off the shelf piston will work? i haven't had luck finding one with the right CH. I need about a 15cc dome to get my required compression.

the rod:stroke ratio is better (by .01:rolleyes:) than a 4.75 stroke, 6.7" rod 632.

6.385/4.5=1.42
6.7/4.75=1.41


but i guess balancing and clearancing will add up and be a real pain...

i would like 2618 forged pistons.
 
#9 ·
it seams like the only 4.375 cranks are eagle and callies dragonslayer. i won't run eagle, and the dragonslayer is out of my pricerange.

i think ill just stick to a 540.... BUT

would it be better to run a 6.385 or a 6.535 rod? i know this whole rod/stroke ratio thing is old news, but what would YOU do?
 
#10 ·
it seams like the only 4.375 cranks are eagle and callies dragonslayer. i won't run eagle, and the dragonslayer is out of my pricerange.

i think ill just stick to a 540.... BUT

would it be better to run a 6.385 or a 6.535 rod? i know this whole rod/stroke ratio thing is old news, but what would YOU do?
I like the idea of more cubes, and if you cannot find off the shelf pistons with a pin height that can be used with the 4.375" stroke 582" combo, then I wouldn't be too quick to scrap the 4.5" stroke 588" combo idea if I were you.

It seemed that Todd (aka "10secBU" ) on this board did his homework when he was building his 582" maximum effort engine for his 8 second car. Maybe you should try shooting a PM over to him about it. I have the same pin height that you had mentioned (1.120") on the Mahle pistons in my 632" engine. But I looked in the mahla catalog as well as the Diamond piston catalog too, and didn't see any pistons with a 1.245" or 1.250" pin height (which is what I believe that you would need with the 4.375" stroke crankshaft.
 
#12 ·
My 582 is far from max effort, just a basic higher output bracket style engine. Almost all the parts are off the shelf, non-custom pieces.

Most all the parts came from Sunset and they stock the Diamond pistons which have the domes cnc profiled/matched to the Brodix chambers...I'm running the 377 MC Head Hunters.

I'm using the Callies Magnum II crank and a 6.385 Lunati Pro billet rod. The crank counterweights had to be trimmed down to clear the 6.385 rod combination, but it allows for a better ring package.

I'd say the Draginslayer should be considered the furthest I'd go down in the rankings of crank quality/cost.
 
#13 ·
My 582 is far from max effort, just a basic higher output bracket style engine. Almost all the parts are off the shelf, non-custom pieces.

Most all the parts came from Sunset and they stock the Diamond pistons which have the domes cnc profiled/matched to the Brodix chambers...I'm running the 377 MC Head Hunters.

I'm using the Callies Magnum II crank and a 6.385 Lunati Pro billet rod. The crank counterweights had to be trimmed down to clear the 6.385 rod combination, but it allows for a better ring package.

I'd say the Draginslayer should be considered the furthest I'd go down in the rankings of crank quality/cost.
I kinda figured you would know many of the details and therefore have alot of answers for the original poster Todd. :yes:

I guess the reason I refered to your build as a "maximum effort" one is simply that whenever I see or hear of an engine making very close to a horsepower number that is double what the cubic inches are, and on all motor naturally aspirated at that, I tend to consider that the "maximum effort" stuff whether it's built with custom pieces or not. Maybe others who are deeper into this sport than I am don't. The fact that you're making so much horspower without custom pieces is just plain cool. :cool:

BTW, with those rods, stroke, and deck height you have, my calculations indicate that you would be left with exactly 1.2275" for the pin height (aka "comp" height) on the pistons assuming that the block decks weren't shaved down at all. Do you remember what pin height those Diamond pistons have that you used? I'm asking you this since it was the pin height that the original poster had questions about earlier in the thread once the 4.375" stroke topic was brought up.
 
#15 ·
Any time you get over 540" the head determines how much power they will make. The BB2-Xtra is a somewhat dated head these days. They will generally make between 780-850 h.p. @ 7200 rpm with some compression. Putting a 4.5" crank in a short deck makes things pretty tight. The 540" with 6.535 rods is a good way to go. Boring that block out another .060 to 4.56" will get you a few more h.p. but going to a better cylinder head would get you a lot more.
 
#16 ·
Ill need to puzzle over it...

but with that long of a stroke, would would be the max rpm you would turn it? i will have a solid roller cam in the 270/280 @ .050 range with some hefty springs to. so my valvetrain won't be the limiting factor.

I personally am not trying to squeeze power out, but the main reason is that i have a tremec tko 600, which is not meant to shift above 6500. but i do live at 5000' so that is why i need more cubes or rpm. i would like an honest 700+ fwhp.

i know the motors get expensive, but i am on a "budget" hence why i have the sportsman big m block, and will use the compstar rods and crank rather than the dragonslayer or oliver billet rods.

if you think a 4.5" stroke would be worth it, than i would love to do it. but i do need some longevity in this motor, i don't want to rebuild it every 6 months. i don't, however, mind keeping up on the valve train and checking things out every so often.


What kind of "better" cylinder heads do you have in mind? i would like to keep to standard bbc valve angles, as this is not a max effort engine. unlike some, i am not trying to make "torque monster", i want some top end HP. So i need 360cc+ heads.
 
#17 ·
Ill need to puzzle over it...

but with that long of a stroke, would would be the max rpm you would turn it? i will have a solid roller cam in the 270/280 @ .050 range with some hefty springs to. so my valvetrain won't be the limiting factor.

I personally am not trying to squeeze power out, but the main reason is that i have a tremec tko 600, which is not meant to shift above 6500. but i do live at 5000' so that is why i need more cubes or rpm. i would like an honest 700+ fwhp.

i know the motors get expensive, but i am on a "budget" hence why i have the sportsman big m block, and will use the compstar rods and crank rather than the dragonslayer or oliver billet rods.

if you think a 4.5" stroke would be worth it, than i would love to do it. but i do need some longevity in this motor, i don't want to rebuild it every 6 months. i don't, however, mind keeping up on the valve train and checking things out every so often.


What kind of "better" cylinder heads do you have in mind? i would like to keep to standard bbc valve angles, as this is not a max effort engine. unlike some, i am not trying to make "torque monster", i want some top end HP. So i need 360cc+ heads.
BMF 385cc cylinder heads come to mind. They're conventional heads with stock valve angles, that have a reputation of making some good power (as far as I know) but they aren't cheap either.....(see link below)...but you can also go with the brodix 377cc Head Hunter heads too....

http://www.thebmfstore.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=10385


http://www.thebmfstore.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=20
 
#18 · (Edited)
#21 ·
$1000 is too much for me. i don't need cubes that bad. On the other hand, i would like to do the 4.375 stroke deal. I am looking for a crank in the $700 range i.e. compstar, sledgehammer, no eagle or scat.

also, i found some off the shelf wiseco and mahle with a CH of 1.245. with this CH and 6.385 rods, i will get a + deck clearance (only .0075) how does that sound?

i was looking into other cylinder heads such as afr 385 magnum and some RHS 370 elite that are more in my price range. $2000+ per head is a little much for me. Even with a 540, will i be able to peak below 7000? How about in a 582? peak below 7000? I am not too concerned about low end torque, and i don't mind a dominator on the street.

BTW, you guys are awesome:)
 
#23 · (Edited)
$1000 is too much for me. i don't need cubes that bad. On the other hand, i would like to do the 4.375 stroke deal. I am looking for a crank in the $700 range i.e. compstar, sledgehammer, no eagle or scat.

also, i found some off the shelf wiseco and mahle with a CH of 1.245. with this CH and 6.385 rods, i will get a + deck clearance (only .0075) how does that sound?

i was looking into other cylinder heads such as afr 385 magnum and some RHS 370 elite that are more in my price range. $2000+ per head is a little much for me. Even with a 540, will i be able to peak below 7000? How about in a 582? peak below 7000? I am not too concerned about low end torque, and i don't mind a dominator on the street.

BTW, you guys are awesome:)
Josh
I am doing a 1pc seal 4.375 rotating assembly right now for a fellow in Australia so I will have a pretty good idea of how thing shake out in a few days
This is a Callies Dragonslayer crank because of the 1pc seal, cam cut by Callies for piston clearance
Wisco 15cc dome shelf piston & shelf rod H series bearings & Total Seal AP rings for nitrous
So I can do the same thing with the Compstar crank


email or PM me if you want some prices on this setup

As far as heads there are many excellent offerings available now & I just got finished testing 3 of the better ones & they all did very well
RFD custom Edelbrock by Curtis Boggs, Profiler X by Darin Morgan & the AFR 385 by Tony Mamo
I would expect the Brodix HH & BMF to be right there with these but I have no direct info yet except to say all these heads are very hi quality pieces,,,
We are a WD for AFR, Brodix & Profiler & can also supply the RFD heads so this is not an ad for any of the above, I think they are all very good offerings.;)
 
#24 ·
I need a short deck block. I bought the block as the first thing to resist temptation to get a tall deck. The only way to get headers for a tall deck in my car is to do side exit or tube the whole car. Most motor swaps in my car, even with sbc's, are a real pain with good headers.

Also, i love building motors. I have only ever build 1, but there is nothing more exiting. I honestly think i will never buy any kind of crate motor. i build all my own stuff, not to come off arrogant, though.

Josh
I am doing a 1pc seal 4.375 rotating assembly right now for a fellow in Australia so I will have a pretty good idea of how thing shake out in a few days
This is a Callies Dragonslayer crank because of the 1pc seal, cam cut by Callies for piston clearance
Wisco 15cc dome shelf piston & shelf rod H series bearings & Total Seal AP rings for nitrous
So I can do the same thing with the Compstar crank


email or PM me if you want some prices on this setup

As far as heads there are many excellent offerings available now & I just got finished testing 3 of the better ones & they all did very well
RFD custom Edelbrock, Profiler X by Darin Morgan & the AFR 385 by Tony Mamo
I would expect the Brodix HH & BMF to be right there with these but I have no direct info yet except to say all these heads are very hi quality pieces,,,
We are a WD for AFR, Brodix & Profiler & can also supply the RFD heads so this is not an ad for any of the above, I think they are all very good offerings.;)
Can you get a callies compstar in a 4.375 stroke? also, will a 4.375 stroke clear 6.385 rods?
 
#27 ·
Which set up are you referring to & who are these folks that are saying this??

If the 6.7 rod 4.5 than I guess no one should ever build a 400 with stock rods either
Same with the 6.48 4.375 combo ;)

Even the 6,385 x 4.375 combo is not that horrible at 1.45, much "better" than some of the really big stuff out there but it is about as far as I am comfortable with in something that is going to see some time
BTW,, it is also slightly better than the many stock rod 4.250 combos running around.
 
#28 ·
Josh, The big bore, 4.600" short deck will make lots of power. All of these engines will overpower any kind of street tires at will. Look for the Brodix 383 HH-MC, like the one (10secBu) built, to go 1000+ h.p. at 565 cu. in. with 14.5-1 compression. I think you'd be better off building a 565" engine with 6.535 rods than a 582" engine with shorter 6.385 rods. It might be even easier to go with a 4" crank and build a 532" engine, even at this size tires & suspension will likely be the limiting factors. Wolfy can get you the best deal on heads.
 
#29 ·
If i had a better transmission (tko 600) than i would not worry about extra cubes, i would just go for rpm. also, I need about 11:1 max for pump gas at 5000'. Besides, i love rpm anyway:yes:.... but not past 6500 this time:sad:.

This is my daily driver..... Did i mention it will have a .700+ lift solid roller? and a quickfuel dominator?

I was just going to ask about some good decently priced 6.480" rods. How bout em?
 
#30 ·
BUT... my goal here really is to go low 10's with a tko 600 and about 3200lbs. I don't want to do to crazy with suspension and tires, i would like to not modify the chassis. but high 9's would be cool.

It seams like a lot of guys hear are going 9's with pump gas 540's, but with much better tranny's.
 
#35 ·
Josh, don't forget that the chassis and suspension set up is what's going to make or break that car into the times you are expecting. All this super power and great motor combos aren't going to amount to squat if the car just sits on the line and burns the tires up.

If you take a good look at the guys on this forum that are turning in fast times, you'll see a lot of hard work and detail that went into their cars suspension. I'm sure that most of them would tell you that the motor was the easy part.

Also remember, if you are lucky enough to hit those low 10 sec and even 9 sec times, the track officials will come a running! Things like the proper cage, proper tranny protection or blanket, proper safety switches, proper fire suit, etc. Once you venture into the realm of those speeds, the game, the rules, and the costs go UP!
 
#31 ·
If you like to build it Mike can get the parts at super prices do the machine work and balancing. Your post count is low so I don't know how long you have been following along, but his machine work borders on anal (in a good way). With your goals 540, 555, 565 would all do it and nothing exotic, equaling longevity. I hope you have seen my post on my 555. it's in my signature also. Good luck:thumbsup:
 
#34 ·
mike is "wolfplace" yeah?

Yes.
 
#36 ·
well i already have a strage 9", but i am completely prepared to make it track legal. i have already planned for all the suspension and safety upgrade for a 9 sec car. I am wondering if the TKO 600 will be the limiting factor?

I just want to build a motor that will get me those times with a good set up, i want to build a good solid motor the first time.


So for that sake of money well spent, i should just build a 540-565 instead of wasting time on balancing and hard to find parts?

I am just wondering if 385cc heads (afr) are to much for a 540? Like i said, i am at 5000" so i can really bump my compression up to make up for the thin air. I had an iron-headed 327 with 11.7:1 that ran fine on pump gas up here. I would like to shift at 6500, but make good power to 7000+ so that i don't have to shift into 5th gear.
 
#37 ·
Well, i did some research.... and howards cams makes a "track smart" crank. 4.375 stroke and they advertise it for a 6.385 rod. So i can either use a 6.385 rod, or a carrillo k1 6.480 rod. Plus... Its an american forging :yes:

BTW, what kind of quality is the carrillo K1 rod? I haven't heard much about them.
 
#38 ·
I for one cannot anser your question about the Carillo rods, but since you've stated earlier that you don't have the coin for certain crankshafts that Callies sells, I'm a bit surprised that you're looking at Carillo rods. Isn't everything that Carillo makes really major BIG BUCKS???
 
#39 ·
Thats what i first thought... The reason i asked if they were any good is because i found a set for $500. i was expecting at least $1000. But they do offer several kinds of rods, but the 6.480" is only offered in one style (h-beam).

i don't mind $600-800 for a crank, $600-800 for rods.
 
#40 ·
Do yourself a favor and single-source a balanced rotator and request big and little ends be checked out as well as piston pin bores fitted if necessary.


88 Camaro, shoot man you are going to bleed enough putting an engine in that thing don't stick an engine with hodgepodge parts in it. I bleed just thinking about the engines we did in my boys 85, those damn cars are sharp as a razor.
 
#41 ·
The Carillo K1 line is an offshore forging. Similar to a Callies Compstar.

Offshore forging, but finish machined in the US to better tolerances that the other offshore "stuff" out there.
 
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