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Need some input on torque monster 454

26K views 60 replies 17 participants last post by  BillyGman 
#1 · (Edited)
This will go in my 71 Chevelle with TKO600 and 12 bolt with 3.42 gears and an Auburn posi. This will be a street car, might go to the track once or twice a year. Looking to get big torque numbers down low thru midrange.
Looking for 400hp/450tq range motor(is this realistic?)

Looking for suggestions on what I need also feel free to let me know if I need to change anything I already have. I have always built small blocks and this is my first big block build so your help is greatly appreciated.

What I have:
1990 truck 454 casting # 10069286 4 bolt stock bore will be bored .030 over
stock crank
stock rods
flat top hypers
oval closed chamber heads casting #3904290 101cc 2.06I/1.72E
Demon 750 vac secondary
Performer RPM intake
comp headers 2" primaries 3.5 collector
3" exhaust with x pipe and dual flowmaster 40s

What I need I need help with:
camshaft? Looking at lunati 60202lk 1400-5700rpm range lift 530I/542E duration at .050 219/217 112 LSA, any other cam suggestions are welcome. Prefer hyd flat tappet based on budget, too much other stuff needs done.
are headers to big?
carb big enough?
any idea on compression ratio and if I would have to run high octane fuel?

I know lots of questions, Thanks for your input.
 
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#2 ·
Looks pretty good to me. Headers don't need to be that big , but you got em already.
Carb should be fine, pump gas I would atleast run 89.
I would prob step up to the next cam for what I like. 60203
Hopefully you will get some more opinions on cam choice.
Good luck with it.
 
#3 ·
This will go in my 71 Chevelle with TKO600 and 12 bolt with 3.42 gears and an Auburn posi. This will be a street car, might go to the track once or twice a year. Looking to get big torque numbers down low thru midrange.
Looking for 400hp/450tq range motor(is this realistic?)

Looking for suggestions on what I need also feel free to let me know if I need to change anything I already have. I have always built small blocks and this is my first big block build so your help is greatly appreciated.

What I have:
1990 truck 454 casting # 10069286 4 bolt stock bore will be bored .030 over
stock crank
stock rods
flat top hypers
oval closed chamber heads casting #3904290 101cc 2.06I/1.72E
Demon 750 vac secondary
Performer RPM intake
comp headers 2" primaries 3.5 collector
3" exhaust with x pipe and dual flowmaster 40s

What I need I need help with:
camshaft? Looking at lunati 60202lk 1400-5700rpm range lift 530I/542E duration at .050 219/217 112 LSA, any other cam suggestions are welcome. Prefer hyd flat tappet based on budget, too much other stuff needs done.
are headers to big?
carb big enough?
any idea on compression ratio and if I would have to run high octane fuel?

I know lots of questions, Thanks for your input.
I don't think you should have any problems making that torque number goal or even more with a 454 cid engine. The cam isn't what I would call a "bad" choice. But I think I'd use the next step up (the 60203 ).The only real bad thing about that combo will be those headers. Yes, those headers are waaaaay too big. They're gonna counteract exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish ( low end and midrange torque ). :yes: You're going to take a sizeable hit on the torque level below 3,000 RPM using those big 2" primary tubes. The power delivery is gonna be a lot more soggy down low than it should be with a street driven big block car. With those headers on that combo, you might as well stay with a mild small block, because that's what it's gonna feel like. You'll be negating the low end torque benefits of having a big block under the hood with them. The headers you have are a big mismatch with the cylinder heads and cam you'll have. Not good. Think before you make your next move. ;)

The 3" exhaust is fine though. You'll need 1 3/4" primary tube diameter headers (preferably with 3" diameter collectors).
 
#4 ·
I agree that you will meet the power numbers and should exceed them easily.

I also agree about the headers being too big. Sell them, or keep em for later maybe, but get some of the $90 Summit headers. They have 1 3/4 primaries and 3 inch collectors. The carb you have should be fine.

You should have roughly 9 to 1 compression with the flat tops and closed chamber heads. It may run on regular, but you may have to use mid-grade. With the decent compression and the manual transmission, you can run a little bigger cam. The one you have picked out may not even rev to 5000. You want to have more fun than that don't you?;) I would look at something closer to the 230 at .050 range. The 60203 would be a good pick too.

Sounds like a good combo though.:thumbsup:
 
#5 ·
I agree that you will meet the power numbers and should exceed them easily.

I also agree about the headers being too big. Sell them, or keep em for later maybe, but get some of the $90 Summit headers. They have 1 3/4 primaries and 3 inch collectors. The carb you have should be fine.

You should have roughly 9 to 1 compression with the flat tops and closed chamber heads. It may run on regular, but you may have to use mid-grade. With the decent compression and the manual transmission, you can run a little bigger cam. The one you have picked out may not even rev to 5000. You want to have more fun than that don't you?;) I would look at something closer to the 230 at .050 range. The 60203 would be a good pick too.

Sounds like a good combo though.:thumbsup:
Agree with Brad and others about the headers and cam. A stock LS5 is rated at 500 ft. lbs so you should be right there. With those changes I would also consider a mechanical secondary carb with a stick...more instant gratification..:D
 
#6 ·
Yeah, if you go with the bigger of the two cams discussed here so far, then you might need a bigger carb than the one you've listed, but I'm not positive about that. Just a mere guess on my part, and I'm also merely going by what it mentioned in the general guidelines on the Lunati webpage about that cam.
 
#7 ·
I have 8.8:1 with a 1978 dished-piston shortblock and 1968 #063 101cc oval port heads.
I run the 3.42 gears and a 3000 stall converter. Cam is 226*, shift at 5100 rpms for best times, 230* would be better...get the engineup to the safe limit for the cast pistons. 12.7s is not too shabby. not the 500 ft lbs 'rated power' of the 1970 cars but honest to Dod flatten you eyeballs launch, 1.70 60' without too much effort.

Replace the 2" pipes with 1 7/8" primary tube headers.
Next cam will be a 230*/.540"/109LSA unit...easy 12.5s.
 
#8 ·
12.7s is not too shabby. not the 500 ft lbs 'rated power' of the 1970 cars but honest to Dod flatten you eyeballs launch, 1.70 60' without too much effort. Yeah, but with some good drag radial tires in back ofcourse. Not doin that with the typical crappy Dunlop radial T/A tires. :noway:

Replace the 2" pipes with 1 7/8" primary tube headers.
.
If it were me, I'd use the 1 3/4" primary tubes. that's really all he needs for that combo. And going from 2" to 1 7/8" won't even be a big enough difference to make the labor and expense of changing the headers worth it IMO.
 
#11 ·
I have 8.8:1 with a 1978 dished-piston shortblock and 1968 #063 101cc oval port heads.
I run the 3.42 gears and a 3000 stall converter. Cam is 226*, shift at 5100 rpms for best times, 230* would be better...get the engineup to the safe limit for the cast pistons. 12.7s is not too shabby. not the 500 ft lbs 'rated power' of the 1970 cars but flatten you eyeballs launch, 1.70 60' without too much effort. edit shocks, air bag,and certainly Drag Radials...

Replace the 2" pipes with 1 7/8" primary tube headers. edit 1 3/4" primaries Next cam will be a 230*/.540"/109LSA unit...easy 12.5s.
Should be more awake when I post
 
#10 · (Edited)
I ran a 454HO 425HP/500ftlbs with a M20 and 3.31's. Best run was a 2.0/13.1/107.5, anykind of traction would of gotten a solid 12sec run with room to spare. This was with BFG radial T/A's though. You should do better with the deeper rear gear and deeper 1st gear of the TKO.

If the budget allows, you can get a ZZ502 roller cam for like 160.00 new on a steel core. Its 224/234 .527/.544 110lsa, and the timing set for 40.00 which will allow this cam to be installed in the MKIV blocks, and elimates the need for a cam button. Just need the melonized distrib gear. So for around 230.00, you have a roller cam and timing set that should give you around 25-30 more hp/ftlbs, and eliminate and chances of losing a lobe on that flat tappet. Morel and others now have affordable roller lifters in the 350.00 range. This will be the cheapest HP you will buy, and I see around 450hp, 500ftlbs+.

PS - what OD ratio are you running, the .64 or .82?
 
#36 ·
X2. I have had good luck making tq on mild 454's with the Isky 270 Mega.
221/221, .527"/.527", 108* Lsa.
 
#13 ·
I think your combo is going to be fine the way it is you will have plenty of torque all over the place.Dial in your timing and tune your combo_Only thing i think you should do is step down the 3 inch duals to some 2 2/1 duals.I have run 12.3@111 with a 1.77 60ft.With a 8.1 comp 454 218/228 cam 114lsa 2inch primary headers,2.5 duals bullet mufflers,3310 vs carb.3.42 gears 2400 stall.
 
#14 ·
Hmmm, so you're running a header primary tube diameter that's almost as big as your muffler pipe diameters are (only a 1/2" smaller)???? And that's really what you attribute your successful ET's to? I dunno. I'd have to question that myself. What I cannot question are your ET numbers. 12.3 seconds is pretty good for a mild cam like you have, along with the mild gear ratio and mild stall speed too. :yes: :thumbsup: I bet you would run better ET's with 1 3/4" primary tubes. But just to be clear, I believe that the original poster is asking about a street car application anyway. Not a race car application.

But just so we know the whole picture, what's the curb weight of your vehicle? Do you have a full interior? All steel body?
 
#15 ·
I was told that the larger 3 inch pipes push the torque up higher in the rpm band.Dont think its the attributing to my ets just given him a my setup and what it actually runs.I run a 87 regal (gn clone).Some weight reduction curb wieght is unknown,but its a all iron bbc minus the performer rpm intake,I choose the larger headers because of the nitrous.On motor best et was 12.3@111 my best mph was 112.5 with more timing.On a 100 shot it ran a 11.7@121mph.I agree that it may et faster with the smaller headers but there are no 1 3/4 headers for a g-body with a bbc,which is another reason why i went the larger headers.
 
#16 ·
I was told that the larger 3 inch pipes push the torque up higher in the rpm band.Dont think its the attributing to my ets just given him a my setup and what it actually runs.I run a 87 regal (gn clone).Some weight reduction curb wieght is unknown,but its a all iron bbc minus the performer rpm intake,I choose the larger headers because of the nitrous.On motor best et was 12.3@111 my best mph was 112.5 with more timing.On a 100 shot it ran a 11.7@121mph.I agree that it may et faster with the smaller headers but there are no 1 3/4 headers for a g-body with a bbc,which is another reason why i went the larger headers.
Thanks for your reply on that. Those are some good numbers though. Sounds like you've done a lot with a little. I cannot knock that at all, nor would I want to anyway. I'm thinking that Regals are considerably lighter than Chevelles are. Don't they have a subframe, or a unibody chassis instead of having a full frame like Chevelles do?
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the replies.
The big 2" primary headers were given to me from a buddy so I figured I would use them if I could but will put the $90 Summit headers in the budget.

I have not purchased the exhaust yet (was planning on a 3") so would it be to my benefit to go with a 2 1/2" set up?

69-CHVL I have the .64 OD, also on the roller set up do you have some part numbers or where to find the 502 stuff you spoke of. I would like to go roller but is the extra $400 worth it? That could be spent on something else like a clutch to hold this power.

This 454/tko600 combo will be replacing a 350 .040 over with a .490/.490 comp cam steel 76cc 2.02/1.6 heads backed by a th400. The 350 got yanked for a truck I built. The new combo will be a totally different animal compared to what was in there.

Just to let you guys suggesting cams the velle will have hydraboost that was abducted from a diesel truck I had, so vacuum for brakes is not a necessity.
 
#19 ·
I have not purchased the exhaust yet (was planning on a 3") so would it be to my benefit to go with a 2 1/2" set up?

.
I really don't think so since having an exhaust pipe diameter that's too big isn't possible. I've never heard of an exhaust or muffler pipe hurting performance from being too big. But only for being too small and too restrictive. Header primary tubes and collectors are entirely different. Having a header primary tube that is too big can hurt performance due to the dynamics of the exhaust flow immediately after it exits the engine while it's still inside the headers.
 
#21 ·
We'll, all things being equal, a roller cam typically adds 25-30hp/tq, that's a pretty good gain for 400.00. Not to mention, losing a lobe on a flat tappet and trashing your motor. You also have to remember that my I ran my 2.0/13.1/107 with the 454HO's 211/230 cam, I see the ZZ502 cam as a 20+hp gain over it. Should work nice with the OD trans. Sure, there's other cams that will make more power, but it depends on what you want. Expect to spend another ~220.00 over the ZZ502 cam if you get another cam on a billet core with the cast iron distrib upgrade.

502 cam: http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22543

timing set: http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22674

distrib gear: http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22377

Keep in mind, you need enough spring pressure, and the correct length pushrods. But all in all, I think this is a great way/price to get into a roller cam. May want to contact cstraub for some decent lifters...this is where the money is at unfortunately.

PS - if you have the headers, keep 'em. I ran the 2" on my 454 and had more torque than I knew what to do with. Definitley not worth buying another set over.

Anybody have documented PROOF that 2" headers lost power on a mild 454??
 
#23 · (Edited)
Anybody have documented PROOF that 2" headers lost power on a mild 454??
OK Vince, FWIW allow me to explain why I do believe that many guys over-reach with header tube size, and use larger ones than they should (especially in STREET driven cars like the original poster's question was about)....

There's a header manufacture named "Headers by Ed" and here's a link to their website below.....(read on)...



http://www.headersbyed.com/index.htm


.....they've built headers for awhile now, and when I was shopping for headers for my car, I noticed that they advertised a $50 service for header recommendations whether you buy from them or not. But they do put that $50 towards the price of their headers if you do choose to buy them from their company. So I took them up on that. They mailed me a lengthy application form that I had to fill out. it was very similar to the form you fill out from the camshaft companies when you request a cam recommendation from them. It asked vehicle weight, rear gears ratio, tire height, cylinder heads, intake runner size, engine red line, HP, torque peak RPM, valve sizes, cam specs, etc., etc

They sent me back a full two page report on the header size recommendations which included the collector diameter, ideal collector lengths, and yes, header primary tube diameter too. It also gave specific reasons for their recommendations.

The one thing that this written report stressed the most was that with headers, it's always MUCH better to go slightly too small with the diameters than it is to go slightly too big. They explained that when you go a little too big with the primary tube diameter and the collector diameter, you only get a very slight gain in top RPM power. Usually so small of a gain that it will not even be noticed. But by going slightly too big, you'll also take a BIG hit in lower and even mid-range RPM torque. A hit that WILL be noticeable.

But if you go slightly too small with the diameters of the collector and primary tubes, it will only be a very slight detriment to upper RPM power. Again, so slight, that it won't even be noticed. Now having said all that, let me say that since they are a header manufacture, and as far as I know, that's their main thing and has been for some time, I'd like to think that they know what they're doing. Yes?

Also allow me to point out, that their recommendation for my 800 HP engine with a torque peak of 775 ft/lbs, was a 3.75" diameter collector size, and a 2 1/8" diameter primary tube. That's for a 632 CID engine with 350cc heads, and a solid roller camshaft with a dur@.050 of 270 degrees.

So my opinion on this 2" primary tube diameter being used for 454 CID engines with considerably smaller heads, and much smaller cams is comparative. RPM counts just as much as engine displacement when it comes to header diameter requirements. But you guys, and especially the ORIGINAL POSTER have been speaking about low reving engines, using very mild camshafts. In fact, wimpy camshafts by high performance standards. But I've also listened to more experienced racers than I am say that they use 1 3/4" diameter primary tubes on their 468 CID engines. And I'm talking about guys getting their 468 powered 3,500 and 3,600 LB cars into the high 10's.
 
#24 · (Edited)
All I can say is that I ran a 454/425HP-500ftlbs with a manual trans (no convertor stall to help), 3.31's. 28" tires. That along with only 8.75:1 compression combined with 325cc rec port heads had enough low end to do rolling burn-outs in 1st gear. This combo had more low-end than when I upgraded the motor with Eddy alum heads along with 1 point more compression and a much larger 231/239 cam.

If you want to compare against another known combo, take a look at George's combo...he has the perferrred oval ports heads, more gear, bigger cam, 3000 stall, and I'll bet 1.75" headers. His combo should of smoked the mismatched 454HO with its grossly mismatched heads and too big 2" headers right? We'll, being that stick cars tend to MPH a little higher than auto's, George and I were right there with each other +/- a bit (104mph vs 107mph). And being that he has a little extra weight in that 'camino, I'd say its even.

My point is, in THEORY maybe the 1.75's will be better, then there's reality. In real life, the difference between the headers is probably minute.
Just not worth buying another set of headers and having to potentially cut up the remaining exh system to make them fit.

As far as Ed's 10sec Chevelle with 1.75" headers, did he ever try 2" headers? Bob West picked up .2 with I believe going to 2" from 1.75" when he was in the low 11 sec range. Wonder what Ed would of picked up deeper in the 10's?
 
#25 ·
As far as Ed's 10sec Chevelle with 1.75" headers, did he ever try 2" headers? Bob West picked up .2 with I believe going to 2" from 1.75" when he was in the low 11 sec range. Wonder what Ed would of picked up deeper in the 10's?
Ed got into the bottom 10's with his 468..he used the Flowmaster scavenger collectors as well. The only I swap he tried IIRC was trying out a single plane intake.I don't recall the results
 
#27 ·
Geeze Billy, you mention Ed's Chevelle running 10's with 1.75 headers, and I mention something to counteract it...that Bob's motor picked up with 2" headers...but now we cant mention Bob's combo??? Dont mention Ed's Chevelle then with his scavenger collectors and scienced-out combo then.
 
#32 ·
Originally Posted by bart0510
I have not purchased the exhaust yet (was planning on a 3") so would it be to my benefit to go with a 2 1/2" set up?


Stick with the 3" system. You will have room to grow.
DITTO. 3" exhaust will not hurt, even if it isn't needed. BTW, No, my current combo is NOT the first time I had a BB engine combo with headers
 
#33 ·
BillyGman thanks for all the info on header size. Definately do not want a soggy bottom end since this is a street car.

I looked 2" headers over today and they are very rusty. So I would have to redo a couple of pipes and one collector(pin holes) and the rest of the pipes inside have a fair amount of scale so they probably are not worth saving. One of those deals where somebody said "they are free", so of course I can't so no. I will probably buy new ones any way.

Got the day off due to weather so I have been checking out cams. Still debating the f/t vs roller decision.
Now if I decide to go roller what do you guys think of 69-CHVL's suggestion of the 502 cam or this one or any other?
Lunati cam
* Advertised Duration (Intake/Exhaust) 278/288
* Duration @.050" (Intake/Exhaust) 232/242
* Gross Valve Lift (Intake/Exhaust) .575"/.575"
* Lobe Seperation 112
* Intake Center Line 108
* RPM Range 1800-6200
* Cam and lifters included in kit
Part Number: 10221LK

looked at Comp but could not really find one with the broad power band. (maybe I am reading to much into the power band part?)
any other roller cam manufacturers you guys would suggest?
Just trying to weigh all my options before I decide to build this.
Thanks again
 
#39 ·
Lunati cam
* Advertised Duration (Intake/Exhaust) 278/288
* Duration @.050" (Intake/Exhaust) 232/242
* Gross Valve Lift (Intake/Exhaust) .575"/.575"
* Lobe Seperation 112
* Intake Center Line 108
* RPM Range 1800-6200
* Cam and lifters included in kit
Part Number: 10221LK

looked at Comp but could not really find one with the broad power band. (maybe I am reading to much into the power band part?)
Comp has an 'Extreme 4x4' grind similar to the one you listed, it's #11-243-4, grind is listed as the X4-278H. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-11-243-4/

I actually bought one for my BBC build, but ended up going with the XE294. I still have it if you decide to go that route and are interested.
 
#35 ·
Just for a comparrison when my car had a n/a 454 altho not peanut port it had 781 heads with larger valves a 292 comp cam(max rpm was 5800ish) which ran lots of 12.0's best of 11.8. I swapped out a set of 1 3/4 inch headers for some 2" and l lost 2 tenths and 2-3 mph. Never did see a 11 second run and mph was down. Just my .02
 
#37 ·
Just for a comparrison when my car had a n/a 454 altho not peanut port it had 781 heads with larger valves a 292 comp cam(max rpm was 5800ish) which ran lots of 12.0's best of 11.8. I swapped out a set of 1 3/4 inch headers for some 2" and l lost 2 tenths and 2-3 mph. Never did see a 11 second run and mph was down. Just my .02
That doesn't surprise me at all. Thanks for chiming in on that.
 
#38 ·
Yes, Stock48 I have to second that also. Had a 402 with 236PP and that Isky cam. Good torque down low. With a manuell gear it's NICE with torque from idle. I would be careful with duration in the area of 230+ if I would like a smooth ride from real bottom rpm's.

Remeber, torque winns races, hp sell cars!

Good luck!
 
#41 ·
. I would be careful with duration in the area of 230+ if I would like a smooth ride from real bottom rpm's.

Remeber, torque winns races, hp sell cars!
a 230 dur@.050 in a 454 is nothing. Not even close to being "on the edge" even for a street cruiser.

Small exhausts on a 454 is NOT the way to go. If you'd increase your exhausts your car would run faster.
I agree. I don't see the point in people telling him to go large with the header primary tubes, and smaller with the muffler pipes and tailpipe diameters. That's backwards. Why on earth would he want a 2.5" diameter exhaust pipe hooked to 3" diameter collectors??? That doesn't make sense at all. Like I've previously stated, the 3" exhaust will not hurt his combo, and if anything, it will help. if there's anything that will hurt this combo in a street application, it's going to be the header primary tubes being too big. NOT the muffler pipes being too big. especially not at merely a 3" diameter. :noway: You can put a 5" diameter exhaust pipe on there, and it isn't going to hurt power nor torque delivery as long as the header tubes and collectors are the right size.
 
#42 ·
I'm talking smooth with a stick and from idle to 2000rpms. My exp is that over 230 it can be a hassle to get it to run smooth, when you let of the gas. Moore so with close LS, like 108. We ran a Crane 238/248 114ls in a 454 Vette whith a stick. Ran real nice, but below 2000rpms it was not a nice ride. Later we ran it with a TH350 and a 11" 2000 stall conv. A very nice ride.

Just my exp.
Burt
 
#43 ·
I'm talking smooth with a stick and from idle to 2000rpms. My exp is that over 230 it can be a hassle to get it to run smooth, when you let of the gas. Moore so with close LS, like 108. We ran a Crane 238/248 114ls in a 454 Vette whith a stick. Ran real nice, but below 2000rpms it was not a nice ride. Later we ran it with a TH350 and a 11" 2000 stall conv. A very nice ride.

Just my exp.
Burt
Yeah, I could see it being a little rough and even bucking a little when you lug it with a 238 dur@.050, but taking off 8 degrees @.050 from that cam by bringing down to 230 degrees should make a noticeable difference. Also a 10 degree spread between the int and exh. dur figures is alot. Lets not overlook the fact that your exhuast dur@.050 was waaaay up at 248. these figures are quite a bit more than 230 degrees.

That's why I said that 230 dur@.050 in a 454 isn't bad for street driving at all. Just my opinion.
 
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