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ls1 or 454??

22K views 37 replies 12 participants last post by  tunedbytad 
#1 ·
hey guys. i have a 65 el camino with a 454. its currently stock bore. i have a turbo 400 tranny and a ford 9" rear end.
i was curious if i could make a nice pro-touring car out of the elky with this current engine setup or whether id be better off selling the 454 for an ls1. from what i've gathered, the 454 is more of a drag racing engine where ls1's tend to be more for touring. i also heard ls1's run through spark plugs if they're used in street cars because they're designed to be in high rpm all the time. i was also curious what kind of good aftermarket suspension kits they had for a 65 elky for road-racing.
whats a good trans/rearend/engine setup for high speeds? like the corvette for instance: has a bitchen top speed. does anyone know how possible and costly it is to make a 65 elky be able to keep up with that(or close) and what parts i should swap from my current setup for other parts? all this given the work is done by me.

thx guys. im pretty knew to the whole pro-touring concept. i've just recently been looking into European touring cars and what not. i want a cheaper somewhat lesser version of the corvette with a 65 elky body.
 
#2 ·
Depending on how serious you wanna get, the 454 should be fine. Sure you will have quite a bit more weight over the front tires compared to an aluminum LS1 but unless you plan on doing some hardcore road racing its probably not worth switching engines. As for the LS1 fouling spark plugs often that couldn't be further from the truth. Stock LS1's and other variants came in everything from Camaro's to trucks and most didn't even require a spark plug change till 100k miles. As far as suspension goes do some searching and you will find a wealth of info.
 
#3 ·
Once you have a car with an LSx, you will never want anything else. I yanked my 502 and installed an LS3 (almost) and would never, ever, go back.

Andrew
 
#4 ·
how much does it cost for the swap? i hav a stock bore 454 atm w/ brand new never used aluminum heads waiting for an engine rebuild once the engine goes(only has about 90k miles on it's stock bore), dual plane manifold, forged pistons, nice after market cam, nice after market headers/exhaust.. all i can think of off the top of my head. would that be enough to trade for a low milage ls1

off topic but - how much space is there behind the seat in a 65? is there a bump in the middle for the driveshaft? i was looking to put some subs back there... could u giv me as much details on the cab spacing as possible?
 
#5 ·
I have over $5k in my swap with the price of the engine and tranny, but I'm not done either...also I am doing everything in bare bones hotrod fashion (think used parts, research for over the counter parts, cheap fuel line, compression fittings everywhere, ect)

I modded my gas tank too...a "real" efi tank will run you $500-1200 if you want to do everything the "easy" way

I'd keep the 454 unless you are using it for a daily driver, feel free to ask me any other questions though
 
#6 ·
thx. yeah the 454 is the daily driver. is that $5k just outa pocket? i was thinking about selling my engine/trans and getting AT LEAST $6K between all the engine/trans parts i listed. do you think i'd be able to sell my current stuff(read my previous post..haha) and get enough to do the swap without spending any money for a stock/low milage ls1 and with whatever trans it required(less i should keep the turbo 400?) ????
 
#7 ·
No compairison at all LS1 all the way.

coil per cyl ignition
6 bolt mains
light valvetrain beehive springs
trunion mount rockers
no paper gaskets
much much lighter than BBC
much smaller then the BBC
Nice belt system
HPTuners scanner and editor with real time tuner!
huge aftermarket support
2 1/16" OBDII scanner gauges can give you real time info on everything!
sleaved blocks can go out to 455ci
tall deck sleave blocks go out to 500ci
these can be scored with OVERDRIVE transmissions cheap
the T56 rocks and the 4L60E is magic with te right builder

and my favorite part is no carb
once you spend a chunck of change on SC&C suspension and Kore3 brakes
your carb will be pissed about all the GForces and will not brake or turn as good as the chassis.

I was thinking a caprice wagon fuel tank and lines might fit right on an A-body.
Your in SoCal.
You should drop by www.Haddadmotorsports.com where I work.
We have 500+RWHP LS1 coming out of our ears.
 
#8 ·
I dunno what you mean "out of pocket" but I spent $2k on the motor and trans together.

Cam, lifters, springs, oil pump, ls2 timing chain, pushrods, fuel pump, swap to vette accessories, oil pan, head gaskets, head bolts, water pump/gaskets, headers ($600 alone), throttle cable, harness, pcm, new fuel line, compression fittings, power steering lines, maf, air ducting, drill and tap water pump for gauge to work, radiator hoses, engine mounts, driveshaft, exhaust, tuning, and some other small stuff...took up the rest...and it keeps going up

its not a pull out and stick in swap...

but if you're going to drive it a lot then it might be worth considering, I was getting 23mpg highway before with my 355 and overdrive, so I'm not going to see that..but I will see losing at least 400 lbs (ditched a/c too) and gaining 120hp

I will pick up some city mileage I believe...was getting 11 or so, but I'm expecting to get 13-15 with the ls1

1 thing you won't get is the BRUTAL torque of a BBC...

the t56 6 speed would be awesome but keep in mind it will require you to rework the transmission tunnel of the cars floor, the 4l60e is tight but fits
 
#9 · (Edited)
thunderstruck507-out of pocket meaning without selling your old setup and using the profits as part of the price. Ya the torque factor was something i'm not TOO worried about. with efi ill just buy a weind 177 supercharger or perhaps a turbo system.(unless there's another better mini-blower for the ls1 torque improve?)

tunedbytad-where at in socal? im in huntington beach/orange county area..

My plans for the 454 were to run it with the 125 shot i have till it blows then rebuild it with a weiand 177 sprchrger, 496 stroker kit, aluminum heads... numbers would be rated at about 700 hp and 700+ torque. thats on a carb though. i figure if i can sell my current engine+ unused parts and t400 trans, ill be able to buy an ls1 without spending money and weld any mounts i might need on my own. whats better for a ls1 considering it will be a daily driver that ill want to drive to a track and race a little bit, and what has more bang for the buck? turbo or supercharger?

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE INPUT GUYS. It's really helpin me out. Based off what you guys are tellin me im fixing to swap the 454 out for an LS engine.. probly LS1 if i can't find a cheap low mile LS6 or LS7.
 
#11 ·
I would say the LSX procharger kits are tough to beat for power to money ratio. Turbo kits are expensive but if you are willing to do most of the fab work yourself it may end up being cheaper than a procharger. Although the stock internals (depending on what LSX you get) don't usually last long once you go beyond 600 rwhp. I would say if you aren't planning on building the motor an LS2 would be a great starting point as would an LS7 but they are tough to find and not cheap. LS1's are good as well but don't have the power potential of an LS2 with stock internals. A 6.0 truck engine might also be a nice choice although they are a bit heavier with the iron block. Theres lots of options out there and if you are serious about this you need to get on www.ls1tech.com and read read read to learn more about these engines and check out the conversions and hybrids section on there to learn about putting an LSX engine in your chevelle.
 
#10 ·
My old engine had 70k on it, so its not much good to sell, my dad is going to rering it, put in new bearings and toss it in his car

the transmission I'm trying to sell for $700 but noone wants it...its a 700r4 with transgo stage 2 kit, only has about 7k miles on it...
 
#12 ·
I'm going to try to find a low milage LS2 and a 6-speed manual trans. I'll keep it stock for a while until i have the money to buy either or pro charger or a turbo system(i'll be doing the fab work it that be the case). How much would an ls2/6-speed manual trans(stock and low miles on both) swap cost considering i do all the fab/labor?

Thx for that link Pete. Looks like i'll be glued to my comp for the next few days trying to take in all i can.
 
#13 ·
I'm doing all my own fab and labor too...it's going to cost somewhere in the area of $6-7k minimum I would think.

Just depends on what you do...my ls1 is cammed so I had to get the supporting mods to do that.

I am just ready to drive it, maybe I won't be so bitter about how much I've spent once I actually drive it...or at least hear it run.
 
#14 ·
well i know i could sell what i currently have under my car for at least that.
do you guys know of a good place to look for ls engines for sale?
 
#17 ·
from one young gun to another (im 25 so im pushing the limit a lot), run with what you have!!!! im doing an ls swap and its a lot of work. can it be done? of course!!! but youre 17, in highschool and maybe going to college next year. time will be short, so enjoy your car before you tear it up.

what starts off as a small build turns into years. theres time issues, money issues, women issues etc.......

im going on 5 years with mine and ive got at least 2 more to go. i am going lsx, but im using the iron "LSX" block, building it myself and still looking at 12k plus.

also, you wont get 6k+ for your motor and trans. i had a freshly rebuilt complete zz430 and i got 3600 and a lot of headaches. in addition, i still had to pay for the machine work, new pistons, rings, gaskets, etc which tore into my profit a HUGE amount. nobody is going to pay top dollar for a rebuilt motor when its not coming from a reputable builder.

i know im rambling, but enjoy what you have and learn from it as much as possible. when you have the time and the bucks, do it right and do it once. if you have the time, money and another car to drive, and youre not worried about missing your car for a few years, it would be an awesome project to take on.

btw, where in huntington are you?
 
#19 ·
Personally I would opt for a LQ4 over a LS1, I get the same look, costs less money upfront for th eengine and I get a low compression engine that runs on regular gas and gets better gas mileage. As for cost, I had it looked at and the numbers came out to have it done around $8K-$10K including a mid mileage motor (by that I mean 70K miles or less). This was using a overdrive automatic.
Many things will be expensive, and the parts list is non-stop. headers cost a small fortune, gas tank, new radiators, motor mounts, cross members, wiring harness etc etc etc. They look cool, but I just can't justify adding that much to my car money wise that I will never recoup.
 
#20 ·
LQ4 and LQ9's w/ wiring and PCM can be had for around $1500 if you get lucky :)

stock with long tubes and K&N 355RWTQ 330RWHP on the last one I did
200 hit of wet plate kit was 678RWTQ@4000RPM and 533WRHP STOCK!

modivated a under geared 6K Lb truck
should modivate a 3900lb A-body like CARRazy
 
#21 ·
the widow maker - my current engine is a stock bore 454 with about 90k miles on it. the only rebuilding thats been done to it is all new engine bearings a few thousand miles ago.
i have a bunch of stuff i'd sell with the engine that has never been used. Aluminum heads run about 1k each and i have 2 that have never been used just hangin out on a shelf in my room. the turbo 400 was rebuilt by a transmission shop.

as far as time goes i'm actually looking at picking up a slammer from my work. I didn't pay much attention to what exactly it was but if my eyes serve my right it was either an early 60's biscayne or impala. it'll be cheap and it's running so. thinking about it though it'd be cool to do a slammer with a ls engine. chicayne? bisquick? hmmm. haha. that'd be cool, although i'd say fairly out of reach given i'm still in high school.

my current setup pushes better numbers... would it be more worth it to just buy an EFI system? would that make a 454 handle the g's and all that on a course like an LSx engine does?
 
#22 ·
I love the LS based motors. Really. But although I would like to go that route I am going to work hard to be different.

I will have a mild PT based build and it will be red with black stripes, black interior and will have a carb'd BB.

I will arrive to shows where everyones car is one shade of silver or another....and they all have ls based motors under the hood.

I will be king. :D

I love these swaps, they are very impressive....but I still cannot wrap my head around that motor in our cars. Nice, for sure, awesome, for sure....but someting aint right about it.....like a real hot chick at the bar with a dudes haircut.....or a 250 lb ripped body builder that looks to be smuggling a AA battery in his speedos.
 
#23 ·
pace performance has some real nice LSx crate motors, I really like how the LS3 is eingineered, seems like thier best one yet.

Honestly (without knowing the particulars on your motor) you will not get 6k for a 454 and 400 trans and be able to do this swap without digging into your pocket (real deep).
Too many "little things" that will add up.
Also the LS1 heads suck, you should upgrade those if you want to make some real power.

IMO keep what you have, build it up and add a 5 or 6 spd to it.
 
#24 ·
even though there are tons of us on these boards doing an ls swap, ive never seen one in person. sure ive seen camaros with the swap done, but never a chevelle. dont let anyone tell you that you wont be different.

but in your case, stick to the 454. enjoy it for a few more years and then tear it apart.

would efi on your bb help, sure. but what is it youre looking to do? i thrashed the streets for years with my sb and never had any issues i would have attributed to the carb. unless youre doing some serious corner carving, dont worry about the efi.

Tim
 
#25 ·
I tore up some backroads with my carbed 350 too...as in riding the ass of my roommates Miata through some turns.

I pushed the car to its traction limits and still had no fuel issues.

When I went to get exhaust welded the other day we had to stop by the chevy dealership and had a crowd around the trailer in a hurry.

LS1 heads suck? In comparison there are better heads...but I'm seeing people pay $800-1200+ for 25-30hp...I think I'll stick with my heads. Plenty of cars break 400rwhp with stock heads and medium cams.

My car has been down since June, and will be completed this month come hell or high water. So it can be done in a fair amount of time...but its a LOT of hard work. I keep taking off work for a couple days at a time and I work harder in those days than a full month at my job haha.

But like Widowmaker said...being 17 I would rather enjoy what I had back then than be working on a non running car for a long time. Growing up in a small town, my car was about the only fun I had when I was your age. (i'm only 23 now)

but as stated, the swap can be done, will look awesome and drive awesome...but so will a 454 based build

and the spending can be anywhere from the $6k range to $15+ depending on what you replace...I kept my fuel tank, radiator, ditched a/c, Jerry rigged some power steering line, just used cheap $30 summit fuel line, ect...

but also as stated a 5.3 can be picked up cheaper, and with the ls1 or ls6 intake and stuff make around 330hp with a ls6 cam and headers
 
#26 · (Edited)
Did not see you were 17...Stick with the 454. You are looking at close to 10k easily to swap it right. motor, trans,headers, torque converter, motor mounts, frame mounts, cross member, pcm/harness, driveshaft...and that is just off the top of my head. If you want to see what it all entails, goto ls1tech.com and goto the conversions and hybrids forums, there are several guys who have done the swap to 64-67 A-bodies. If you want to do it anyways, I would suggest finding a 5.3/4L60E combo and using stock exhaust manifolds or midlengths, there is a company that sells mounts and crossmember for like $500. PM me and I'll give you the site because I don't think they're a sponsor.
 
#27 ·
but I still cannot wrap my head around that motor in our cars. Nice, for sure, awesome, for sure....but someting aint right about it.....like a real hot chick at the bar with a dudes haircut.....or a 250 lb ripped body builder that looks to be smuggling a AA battery in his speedos.
I personally love the look of these motors in the A-bodies.
They sit about 1/2 foot lower and up against the fire wall.
Having the a motor of the smallest dimmentions and weight as close to the ground is key.
This is the Pro Touring section of the forum after all.
Then on paper they put out a lot more power per pound and per dollar than the BBC.
*flame away*

even though there are tons of us on these boards doing an ls swap, ive never seen one in person. sure ive seen camaros with the swap done, but never a chevelle. dont let anyone tell you that you wont be different.
Did you got to the car show on Main street @ the HB pier this year?
There were several LS swap cars there.

If I was 17 and had 454 / th400 combo I'd just rock that with a big grin.
 
#28 ·
I personally love the look of these motors in the A-bodies.
They sit about 1/2 foot lower and up against the fire wall.
Having the a motor of the smallest dimmentions and weight as close to the ground is key.
This is the Pro Touring section of the forum after all.
Then on paper they put out a lot more power per pound and per dollar than the BBC.
*flame away*



Did you got to the car show on Main street @ the HB pier this year?
There were several LS swap cars there.

If I was 17 and had 454 / th400 combo I'd just rock that with a big grin.

Nah, no need, reason or anything else to flame. Your right, I understand it and I dont disagree. But doesnt mean that it looks "right" to me. The motors are sweet, power potential and strength are amazing. No denying that.

Guess I am torn between full blown PT and OE / concourse. And my love for the good old tried and true chevy BB is too great.
 
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