If you recall my posts a few weeks ago I was telling you about a buddy of my that has an orange 69 with a L78, cowl plenum induction, hood pins etc. Well, he found the build sheet and here's the scoop.

First, it does have the hood pins called out as "pL1 H pins". We knew that the hood looked punched out from the factory, this has to be a one of a kind.

Next, in the lower right hand corner it says
XXX CUSTOMER ORDER
S.H.P ORDER AS PER BOX 25.
DECALS N/A
HORSEPOWER, UNRATED.......

Under box 25 it has "L78 6BL" so it originally had a tri-power setup I guess. There is also something about the fuel lines with a bunch of numbers below it. Box 39 has (looks like) "EN" for a code. Box 53 has "CM" for the air cleaner. Whatever they stand for?

As far as the cowl plenum induction goes, no one has EVER heard of this setup on a tri-power. We have no idea what a lot of these numbers are in some of these boxes and I know that the factory wasn't supposed to install this option but that's what we all said about the hood pins, right? The thing is, the oval holes for the cowl tube are perfectly "stamped" through the firewall, just like the hood pins were stamped out. Who knows???? I just wish it still had the tri-power on it just to see how it looked new.

We still don't know why this car has a 110 1/2'' wheelbase? Under CTRL ARMS in box 13 & 14 it has "15 509" for the front and "PHP JHD" for the rear. Is this standard stuff?

Anyway, just thought you all would enjoy this since it is a little out of the ordinary. By the way, the owner wanted me to ask you guys if you have any idea at all how many 69's were code 72 paint. He said that an owner of a Chevy dealership back in 1970 told him that there were only 12 actual L78 cars ordered in orange?? Thanks

Congrats, looks like you have a cool car on your hands.

could this be a factory backed racer? with decals delete for contingency decals or local sponsor paint? How about the front suspension, is it "normal"?
What about the dash, is there block-offs, deletes, or other unusual things? I'm real interested.

Cool Car now lets see some pictures!

Well scan the buildsheet and take pics of the car! We want more!!!

Daniel

Pics can be seen here. http://usera.imagecave.com/highspeed/chevelle/

Owner doesn't want me to post a pic of build sheet right now??
Nothing else seems out of the ordinary but maybe we will find more as we decipher some of these codes and numbers. He has rigged up a hose going from the air cleaner he has now to the firewall because none of the original stuff was with car when he purchased it yrs ago. Original cowl plenum parts are near impossible to find even if you could afford them. I think this car would be worth the cost though to find a date coded intake-carb setup and plenum iduction parts. He is kicking around the idea of having me to put it on ebay for big bucks to see what happens, I will let you know.

Put it on ebay then post a message to BR with a subject line like "Can't believe the price on this one" These guys will find every deficiency in the car, build sheet and the parts and let you know all about it. :D

K

Odd, it does have a heater.....probably means it wasn't built as a race car. Really nice though. I do know that back in the day you could order about anything, depending on who you knew. Who was the delivering dealer?

There are no records available but I'm sure there were many, MANY of the 9000+ L78 optioned cars built with code 72 Monaco Orange paint. And some COPO 427's too.

.....Owner doesn't want me to post a pic of build sheet right now??.......

Why not? There are some folks here that can probably help you guys understand what all the codes mean. Not me, but others for sure.

I know I've read somewhere about that cowl plenum setup. it might have been an old issue of hot rod or something. Then again it might not have been for a 69. For some reason, I'm thinking Smokey Unick. maybe someone else has heard of this???

Where is this car?

It that cowl plenum is stock or "race" it sure is skinny.

Early Z28's had cowl plenum air cleaners. According to the Camaro Research Group, it was a non-factory installed option, with either the purchaser or maybe the dealer installing it- "The cowl plenum air cleaner and the plastic duct were in separate boxes in the trunk with installation instructions included. " Also something on the website about ECL codes on the build sheet. I suppose you could order this from the factory to install yourself for a Chevelle back then- it wasn't what you knew it was who you knew. I wouldn't be surprised if some speed shop sold those for cars back then also. That one on that Chevelle doesnt really look like the one on a Z28. I also wouldn't be surprised if the hood pins were ordered and installed at a dealer as well. I'm not saying its not possible this is factory stuff, but factory headers came in the trunk and were installed at the dealer too, again, according to the Camaro Research Group.

If you posted the build sheet, you would really get some help with the car.

Chants: BUILD SHEET BUILD SHEET BUILD SHEET.

Give it up

Under box 25 it has "L78 6BL" so it originally had a tri-power setup I guess. There is also something about the fuel lines with a bunch of numbers below it. Box 39 has (looks like) "EN" for a code. Box 53 has "CM" for the air cleaner. Whatever they stand for?

We still don't know why this car has a 110 1/2'' wheelbase? Under CTRL ARMS in box 13 & 14 it has "15 509" for the front and "PHP JHD" for the rear. Is this standard stuff?


What assembly plant was the car built and is there a build date on the body tag? In all the examples I have for a 69, both SS models and COPOs, box 25 is the model number (e.g., 13637) and box 27 is the engine code - even then the engine code is only the suffix and not the RPO. Also boxes 13 and 14 are front and rear springs on all my examples. None have a label of CTRL ARMS that I can find. Box 53 is the front end wiring harness code on all mine as well. I have examples from 4 of the 5 assembly plants so maybe the one I don't have is totally different from the other four. :confused:

What code does it show in box 18 for the carburetor?

I can't imagine this being a factory race car or even a body in white with all the creature comforts like radio, heater, bucket seats, etc. I'd think a factory race car would be ordered in the 13427 300 Deluxe series 2-dr sedan and not the heavier 134-13637 hardtops.

Put it on ebay then post a message to BR with a subject line like "Can't believe the price on this one" These guys will find every deficiency in the car, build sheet and the parts and let you know all about it. :D

K thats funny :D :D

"Odd, it does have a heater.....probably means it wasn't built as a race car. Really nice though. I do know that back in the day you could order about anything, depending on who you knew. Who was the delivering dealer?".................................................. ..... power steering was not usually found on hi-performance "race" cars either

Yea I would like to see one of the new build sheets. How much did it cost to have it made up.

Im not saying anything negative or knocking the car in any way. It is hard to tell the wheelbase is different then any other 69 Chevelle to me in those pictures. Is there any evidence it is actually different then other cars?

Glad to see you found a buildsheet. Now lets see it so some of these guys can help.

"As far as the cowl plenum induction goes, no one has EVER heard of this setup on a tri-power".................................................. .im quite certain you couldnt fit a tri power setup with a "cowl plenum" type air cleaner[home made or gm made] on it under that stock hood,at least any air cleaner that would be thick enough to take in any air from the cowl properly..the vacuum pods on the front and rear carbs [and maybe even the fuel lines] wouldnt allow the air cleaner bottom to drop below the carb gasket plane to allow the air cleaner thickness youd need to suck air into the air cleaner and still keep it under the stock hood , air cleaners on stock 3/2s are about an inch wide..and it is impossible to connect a cowl duct to an open element one inch thick air cleaner...the air cleaners on factory 3/2 cars are straight on the bottom and for this reason . 69 holley air cleaners whether cowl plenum or open element drop down so the bottom of the air cleaner is well below the carb to ac gasket plane ,therfore allowing them to be 3 inches thick instead of 1 inch thick...

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. I really wish I could post a pic from the copy of the build sheet he gave me. For some reason he doesn't want if posted, even on ebay! I assure you that it is an original build sheet from his car. I didn't even have his permission to post the pics of his car, maybe I should have asked?

Yes, I agree with you about having it on ebay. He doesn't know what he is in for but I warned him already. I'm glad I won't be answering his phone!

Back to the codes, box 18 is not the CARB, box 39 is and it looks like "EN". That is weird about the "CTRL ARMS" not being on other build sheets. It is hard to see it in these pics but the rear edge of the front tires are very close to the wheel housings.

Oh, it was sold at a dealership in Pheonix and built at the "Leed's Plant" in KC

Owner doesn't want me to post a pic of build sheet right now??Doesn't that cancel out "Rare 69:Now have proof!"?

i would prob not belive it had 2x3's, that was only an option on vettes, i tried to order mix/match parts back then when i was racing, and although some stuff was available thru the dealer, there was limited "factory installed"
beyond the listed options(i was able to sneak a couple things thru on an order, but very limited)

As far as the wheelbase, the front wheels appear to be set back slightly. This would shift the weight bias forward. Just the opposite of what you'd want in any race car that's already front heavy. You'd want the front or rear wheels moved forward like Mopar did in the mid 60's on factory race cars. The air cleaner looks to me like a regular snorkel type with the snorkel cut off. Doesn't look like any of the factory style cowl induction air cleaners.

I still think that the strange wheel base is do to someone setting the caster alot more positve
with the negative caster that a chevelle calls for - and then if the car is now set up with the maximum positive caster that can be adjusted into it
would - make the wheels appear closer to the rear of the wheel opening - and therefore shortening the wheel base a small amount
and aside of the lower control arms having oval or round bushings
there are no different control arms made for these cars by gm
and all upper control arms are the same

The Leed's plant is the one plant I don' t have a 69 build sheet for and it could indeed be different from the others, I've seen it true on other year's build sheets. Anyone else with a build sheet for a 69 from Leed's?

Correction: It's Atlanta I don't have a build sheet of for a 69. I have two from Leed's and the boxes are labeled the same as Baltimore, Framingham, and Fremont...nothing like the box labeling described here.

Dale you can find mine here -------> http://chevelleengineer.home.comcast.net/leeds.html

If you recall my posts a few weeks ago I was telling you about a buddy of my that has an orange 69 with a L78, cowl plenum induction, hood pins etc. Well, he found the build sheet and here's the scoop. Call me sceptical, but is you "buddy" chevBain?

First, it does have the hood pins called out as "pL1 H pins". We knew that the hood looked punched out from the factory, this has to be a one of a kind...I know that the factory wasn't supposed to install this option (cowl plenum) but that's what we all said about the hood pins, right? The thing is, the oval holes for the cowl tube are perfectly "stamped" through the firewall, just like the hood pins were stamped out.

IF it was "factory" punched for hood pins, then why would it be the only one? Why would Chevrolet design the tooling to stamp ONLY one hood? Unless it was a very late build, and they were looking ahead to 1970 hood pins, but even still, the stamping would be the same... Even an engineering test mule would have most likely had "hand stamped" holes for the hood pins... Ever used a Greenly (?) punch? I have made "factory" looking holes myself... And I am sure a tool and die maker could make something that could be used by hand to make it "look factory".

Same goes for the "Cowl Plenum" stamping... If stamped, it would have been done when the firewall was formed, necessitating a whole new set of dies (VERY expensive) just to stamp the "cowl Plenum hole for one car...

Next, in the lower right hand corner it says
XXX CUSTOMER ORDER
S.H.P ORDER AS PER BOX 25.
DECALS N/A
HORSEPOWER, UNRATED.......

HP unrated? That right there throws up the BS flag to Full-Mast! Even the L88 was "rated" (even if incorrectly so, so WHY would a Chevelle buildsheet say anything about "Horsepower, unrated" Sure, if you "knew" someone, you could order just about anything, BUT you could only order what Chevy had, and their motors were all rated...

Under box 25 it has "L78 6BL" so it originally had a tri-power setup I guess.

Why would someone order such a special car with so many special parts (supposedly) for Special High Performance use, and yet still get a tri-power? I know at typical SHP levels, the tri-power was rated slightly higher (435HP versus 425 HP). The tri-power was good, but even Chevy didn't use it on the L88 and ZL1 engines, so it obviously wasn't the best choice for "unrated" performance... Custom, "one-off" build would have been pricey, and most would have pulled the factory stuff for aftermarket pieces anyway, unless class rules forbid that (although a one-off wouldn't really be any better)...


The thing is, the oval holes for the cowl tube are perfectly "stamped" through the firewall, just like the hood pins were stamped out. Who knows???? Maybe (obviously?) someone did a good job of decieving you and your buddy... I'd be real suspicious of the cowl tag too, if someone went so far as to "docotr" up the firewall and hood and buildsheet, they probably replaced the cowl tag (Monaco Orange being a way to decieve someone into thinking the car is a true SS)... Can your buddy still go after the seller for fraud?

Not that it "couldn't" be real, just too many inconsistancies...

It also raises my suspicion because you won't post a copy of the build sheet (you can black-out the VIN portion)... Doesn't make sense why your "buddy" wouldn't want it posted (even on Ebay?), especially here where most would give unbiased help deciphering it, unless
1) it doesn't yet exist, or
2)the reproduction is so poor that it would be obvious...
3) your buddy wants to screw somebody, and doesn't want to find out the description of the build-sheet is wrong...

Alot like Bain's post, IMO... Fishing for info, and supposely having proof...

I was also noticing in you previous post you said
We know it is a true SS and he is checking for the VIN on the block. The "JD" code is on the pad, I have seen that

Yet you also said the Vin was something like 344XXX, indicating a late-build, and it was built out of Leeds... If the engine was original and a 375 HP, shouldn't the stamped code be "CJD" and not "JD"?

If the car has a "JD" or "CJD" coded 375 HP engine, then either the engine is not original to the car, or the buildsheet is not original... (Horsepower, Unrated, etc)

Whats the build date of the car (on the cowl tag),

and for the experts here,when was the JD 396 replaced by the CJD coded 402...

Car looks nice, but looks "restored"...

Just a quick look at the pic of engine compartment on that car shows a number of incorrect parts. Fan shroud, power steering pump, master cylinder, riveted/screwed on dust covers ect. This car has definately been worked on through the years with little reguard to correctness. And where did that drivers mirror come from :)

Trooper

Email the build sheet to Dale McIntosh, let him check it out for you. I'm sure if you asked him he would keep the information confidential, that way at least "you" would know the real story.

You came to this site either for information or to brag. You cant brag without showing the proof. You cant get information without sharing what you have. Your buddy either has something special, has been scamed or is a scammer. Showing the build sheet will not change any of that or the value of the vehicle. It is what it is.

I'm an optimist but cant help but to doubt this one.

I fully understand some of you guys thinking this is bull---- I had my doubts also. I could have bought this car at any time in the last 2 yrs for a really good price. It was the lack of any kind of documentation that stopped me. I was the one who urged him to look for a build sheet or something that told me anything about this car. Now that he found it stuffed into the rear seat he will not sell it to me for the price he was asking even though I am a good friend. I don't blame him!!

The real reason he will not allow me to post his build sheet is that he is afraid someone out there will somehow copy it and clone the car. If that was the case there might be dozens of 69 Chevelles out there with hood pins, etc. with the proof on a build sheet. Can't say as I blame him there either!

Now, for you kind people who are really trying to help us. I am just as confused as you about all this. I don't know if the original engine blew at one point and it was replaced, then whoever owned it decided to just go with a 4BL and added the cowl plenum induction or what. As I stated before, YES, we know it doesn't have the original hose and air cleaner on the car now. I know of a 67 Chevelle that was ordered with a tri-power set up and they shipped it with the car in the trunk. As I recall, it seems like he claimed his engine was "unrated"? I think the secret is in the code for "carb" which is EN and the "air cleaner" which is CM. I will go on the Corvette sites and see if someone has these codes on their sheet if they have a 6BL. Does the code 63L ring a bell with anyone? Under "spec options" box 25 it looks like"L78 6BL", but under the RPO section it does kind of look like a "3". (Grasping for straws now!) Build sheet is in very good shape but a few places a little hard to read.

Box 100 is "fuel lines" and there is 647 659 653
Box 75 (which is not labeled) just has the word "HOLE" would this be the hole for the firewall? I know, grasping again.
The schedule date is 20 10-28 with the number 4019 hand written above it?
There is an RPO ZP3 SPEC PNT which I assume is just the 72 that is on cowl tag. There again the letter after ZP could be about anything as it is kind of smeared.

Once again, thanks to all trying to help and to those of you who think I am just blowing smoke, this is not much fun for me as I am a very busy person who is just doing this for a friend who doesn't own a computer! Bob

Exuse me for not knowing who Dale McIntosh is but how would I get ahold of him?
Thanks

"He said that an owner of a Chevy dealership back in 1970 told him that there were only 12 actual L78 cars ordered in orange?? Thanks".......................I wonder how many orange L78 elkys that would mean???certainly no more than one or two.

Exuse me for not knowing who Dale McIntosh is but how would I get ahold of him?
Thanks

Check post #27 above. Click on his user name and it will lead you to an email link.

Dale, HELP!!
After looking at your Leed's Plant sheet I noticed the box under "FRAME" has an XK. This one has a CRR there and it is the same model (13637) why would they have different frame codes? Also RPO M21 has 4 speed F/S, why doesn't it say close ratio and what is f/s? I will try to talk owner into letting you see build sheet but don't get hopes up. All I can do is give you any code that is on the sheet believe me or not. Is there some kind of book out there that decodes these sheets besides just the RPO's ?

The Leed's plant is the one plant I don' t have a 69 build sheet for and it could indeed be different from the others, I've seen it true on other year's build sheets. Anyone else with a build sheet for a 69 from Leed's?

I would imagine that EACH factory had standard build sheets. Why would one car differ from all the rest? If you look at the posted build sheet for Leeds, it's NOTHING like what is being described. Why would box 39 be interior items for one car and be carburetor for another? Going by that posted build sheet, how in the world could you fit the entire word HOLE in box 75? I don't see how you fit CTRL ARMS or any cryptic words in any of that build sheet.

I'm not an expert on build sheets, but common sense would say that in the 1960's GM wouldn't be printing up separate *styles of* build sheets for each and every mass produced car...Thats IMHO of course, maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not an expert on build sheets, but common sense would say that in the 1960's GM wouldn't be printing up separate build sheets for each and every mass produced car...Thats IMHO of course, maybe I'm wrong.
Well actually they did print one for each and every car, that's whole point behind the build sheet. Unless you mean a different style/layout build sheet for each car.

Anyone with knowledge of buildsheets and codes should be just as worried about giving out info as you are about giving out the buildsheet.........

Finally,

Yes, I did mean different STYLE of build sheet. "I would imagine that EACH factory had standard build sheets."....I should have been more clear. The point I was making was them not using MASS PRODUCED (ie. printed in THOUSANDS) build sheets in favor of a per car printed build sheet was a stretch to say the least.

The real reason he will not allow me to post his build sheet is that he is afraid someone out there will somehow copy it and clone the car. If that was the case there might be dozens of 69 Chevelles out there with hood pins, etc. with the proof on a build sheet.

Have you personally seen this buildsheet? From what I've read so far, the only fake buildsheet concerned in this thread may be the one supposedly associated with this car. Sorry to sound so harsh, but if there is evidence, produce it, otherwise it is pure conjecture. There are plenty of copies of buildsheets available on the internet or other sources, one more or less won't greatly increase or decrease the amount of fakes out there and which do nothing to decrease the value of legit cars with legit paperwork for those who know their stuff and protect themselves from fraud with knowledge and evidence.

Anyone with knowledge of buildsheets and codes should be just as worried about giving out info as you are about giving out the buildsheet.........


Exactly. Anyone who buys a fake build sheet will have questions about the real codes, and if they are printed out, or copied and posted, they have access to them. Of course, the print will be different, and anyone who " KNOWS" will spot it immediately. The average person will just think it's real.

my 2 cents
this poor guy has a fake build sheet
and unless it is shown
what is the sense of continuing this thread
everybody here can have an opinion
but without that crucial piece of evidence this may as well just be a hoax

The real reason he will not allow me to post his build sheet is that he is afraid someone out there will somehow copy it and clone the car. If that was the case there might be dozens of 69 Chevelles out there with hood pins, etc. with the proof on a build sheet. Can't say as I blame him there either!


Seems like the only one with a fake build sheet is your friend. Post it or leave us alone.

JMO

Finally,

Yes, I did mean different STYLE of build sheet. "I would imagine that EACH factory had standard build sheets."....I should have been more clear. The point I was making was them not using MASS PRODUCED (ie. printed in THOUSANDS) build sheets in favor of a per car printed build sheet was a stretch to say the least.
Yea, I figured that out after I started replying, just wanted to be sure of what you were saying.

Dale, HELP!!
After looking at your Leed's Plant sheet I noticed the box under "FRAME" has an XK. This one has a CRR there and it is the same model (13637) why would they have different frame codes? Also RPO M21 has 4 speed F/S, why doesn't it say close ratio and what is f/s? I will try to talk owner into letting you see build sheet but don't get hopes up. All I can do is give you any code that is on the sheet believe me or not. Is there some kind of book out there that decodes these sheets besides just the RPO's ?

XK is the code for a hardtop frame. I don't have any build sheets for convertibles but their code should be different. As an example of what I meant by different plants coding differently sometimes, the frame is a good example. I have Baltimore, Framingham, Fremont, and KC build sheets. Fremont is the only example that codes the same frame as XK-N.

Why a CRR code on yours? Dunno, there's a lot of items different on yours. :confused:

The Regular Production Options (RPO) are listed below the boxes. On a couple sheets I have with the M21 option it shows M21 4 SPD CL RATIO. The "F/S" is for floor shift. I've seen it before on other documetation but can't remember where just now.

No books that I'm aware of - that's why I'm trying to gather as much data as possible but a lot of times it takes multiple pieces from the same car (build sheet, body broadcast, chassis broadcast, POP, Fisher Body tag, etc.) combined to see where the numbers match up. Many of the codes can be deciphered like springs. Front springs code charts with part numbers, assembly code (the GV), cut off length, wire diameter, deflection rate, and heights.

Other items like starter motors for 1970s, 430 in the box is an automatic while 418 is for a 4 spd. I have 40 build sheets for 70 Chevelles and every TH400 automatic has starter 430. Not a great sampling (40) but enough in my opinion to deduce that a TH400 equipped Chevelle/El Camino should have 430 in the starter box.

Many times it's a matter of getting enough examples. Problem is people don't want to release the information they have for fear someone will create a fake, but without someone gathering the information and correlating it, it makes it easier to fake one because very few people know what is what.

Dale, Respectfully,I dont think you need to post publicly alot of the info you do..after all if someone has a real car with real papers they dont need to have all that info out in the open to compare with other owners etc..only the cloners need it...Unfortunately the less educated people are on option codes, engine stampings ,build dates etc ,the better...It seems to me that most cloners dont have the knowledge to correctly mass produce fake cars,lets try to leave it that way. If they dont learn from people that know they wont figure it out for themselves.

I can certainly understand your point of view but where does one draw the line at helping someone out? There are any number of books and CDs on decoding body tags, VINs, POPs, casting numbers, production numbers, even how to correctly paint or plate chassis and body parts. There's a decoder program sold here on TC; Mr. Crown links to his 66-67 SS Facts CD.

If information wasn't exchanged here on TC, Al could do away with a lot of the forums and before long that knowledge is lost to the enthusiast. I think the clones would still figure things out enough to fool a novice with no place to turn for answers.

I agree it's a double-edged sword though. Years down the road if the cloners can't figure it out and novices can't figure it out, are the novices any better off? Unfortunately when you help one group, you inadvertently help the other.

Is it sharing just build sheet information you disagree with? I can respect that, but the information is out in the published world. I don't know the answer. Maybe you or I should start a poll thread, say in Bench Racing, and get opinions. :thumbsup:

Sorry man, the BS meter is at the high end on this one.

Someone was just funning with that (b)uild (s)heet.

Chevrolet never made a cowl plenum 3x2 setup ever. If they did they wouldn't have started with a 396. It was harder than most people realize to get all the scheduled rpo's and copo's done, let alone one offs. It was just plain too expensive to program something like that into the assembly line.

Parts in the trunk...please.

JMHO

Thomas

We will never see this suppossed build sheet because,
A. It does not exist
or
B. It is a fake and the poster knows we'd pick it to shreds.

I see many clues in the engine compartment picture that this car has been restored. There are many incorrect items in the engine compartment.

As far as the wheelbase issue. If I could crawl around under the car for 5-10 minutes, I'd tell you whats wrong with it. Don't rule out the possibility that it has been badly wrecked and the front control arms may be further rearward than they should be. (bent frame).

I suspect that this car started life as Malibu. After all, the poster has made no mention of any components that are numbers matching.

And this idea that somebody might copy the information from the build sheet to create a clone.
WHO CARES ?
That's a bogus excuse.

There's no need for anyone to ask me how I really feel. I just told you !


Nate

Sometimes threads like this seem (or ARE, depending on the viewpoint) to be thinly veiled tests of gullibility directed towards enthusiasts. IMHO, its like doing cheap market research. Maybe this car, or ANY car like it for that matter, is going on Ebay or in the Autotrader and the seller wants to test the waters to see just how much baloney can be stuffed in the package before potential buyers' suspicions are raised. If this IS the case with this car, its definitely not the 1st time it has happened here, and sadly probably won't be the last.

Until the build sheet is posted, it's just not believeable; especially when someone posted a GIF of a build sheet from the exact same plant and it looks completely different than what is being described....

Sorry man, the BS meter is at the high end on this one.
Thomas
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/bsmeter.gif

Remember this guy?? I guess he's still saving for that digital camera, then he'll show us!!
(http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92667)
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92667

Looks like the lower control arms up front are switched from side to side and may describe the odd look of the front wheels.

By the way, the owner wanted me to ask you guys if you have any idea at all how many 69's were code 72 paint. He said that an owner of a Chevy dealership back in 1970 told him that there were only 12 actual L78 cars ordered in orange?? Thanks


That's BS about the orange L78 cars. I've got one of them. They made a bunch of em.

Bogus

Bogus

Yup, well said.

Hate to sound rude, (and this doesn't apply to you guys who are truly trying to help) but some of you people evidently didn't read all of my posts or had trouble understanding them!I read your posts - all of them.

Oct 27th -"He thinks that he has a delivery sheet somewhere for it."

Jun 20th -"I almost bought the car several months ago but decided not to because of no documentation and no VIN on the block (probably a replacement?)"

Jun 25th -"No luck finding a build sheet yet. It's a real mystery!"

Yesterday -"Now that he found it stuffed into the rear seat..."

Ask your friend how long it takes to pull the rear seat out.:sad:

Im not a #s matching kind of guy, but I think it would be cool if it was a factory car.
One thing I noticed. The engine looks like it has the smog pump type exhaust manifolds. Would a high perf engine have that? Maybe a California car?

I would say that manual trans cars and 375hp would have smog. Don't quote me on that, but it's gotta be close.

Maybe this post was a test to see how long it would go before somebody said "bogus".

Sorry to say it, chevbob, but your friend is jerking your chain. Big time !


Nate

If he is worried his car is going to be cloned. I have news for him...

Its a little late for that. There are clones for every SS car out there these days. Especially the L78.

If I had a car that was as rare as this one claiming to be and I have all the docs to proove it. Who cares if it gets cloned, I have the original with proof. How do you think all the real Yenko owners feel? They probably laugh at many clones, because they have the real thing and nothing can take that away. This sounds bogus to me too. :sad:

If he is worried his car is going to be cloned. I have news for him...

Its a little late for that. There are clones for every SS car out there these days. Especially the L78.



Yes, its only a matter of time before I clone my 2002 monte LS into an SS... bwahahaha.... 20 more HP.

yes j/k.

The link to the car pics. doesn't exist anymore, or was removed. Imagine that!

I saved all the pics so I can build a clone with a 110 inch wheel base - NOT

Man what a neg.thread.We are all experts tell someone asks a few questions we cant answer,then its bogus!With walk in options back then anything is poss.!I understand why he wont post the build sheet,I have a 69 L71 with ori.tank sticker that everybody wants me to post on the net,Why?so there will be 10000 L71 tripowers built in 69 when there were only 2722?I think that the right person in the right circumstance would be able to order anything they wanted from gm in that era.Looking at this thread as a hole,the guy asked us a few legitimate questions,and all we did is scrutinize,bummer

SOB, you may believe whoever you like, and whatever story you like. The man posted that he had proof, none was revealed. The idea that the factory would make any damned combination is a lie. The idea that the factory assembly line would be able to pull off a 3x2 swap onto an L78 and fab up a cowl induction on a special short wheelbase Chevelle is just a wild fantasy at best. Because of the amount of assembly line slow down that making such a car would cause it has always been more cost effective for GM to do such show car upgrades off the assembly line - and none of those items would have appeared on the build sheet.

In the Corvette hobby it is my understanding that there are now more *documented* L88 Corvettes in existence than Chevrolet ever originally produced - so L71's can't be far behind! A great many Corvettes and Chevelles have been "restored" with more vehicle options or higher horsepower engine options than were present when they rolled off the assembly line. The NCRS (National Corvette Restoration Society) even gave up on renumbered and restamped engines because there were so many of them - there is *officially* no points deduct in show competition for well done renumbering/restamping. Instead extra points seem to be awarded for provenance, which is the proveable history of the car. In the Chevelle hobby, especially for the years in which there is no distinct VIN code, the common refrain is "where have all the Malibus gone" - with the answer being "gone to Chevelle Super Sports everyone".

It would actually be quite funny if all of the sudden 3x2 L78 cowl induction short wheelbase Chevelles started popping up.

Do not look at the replies as being negative, just because there has always been a lot of BS in the car hobby - especially with musclecars - doesn't mean we can't call 'em when we see 'em.

Thomas

What purpose would it serve for me to post any part of this build sheet. I have given you several of the codes in many of the boxes and out of almost 4,000 views not one of you could tell me anything about them. Would you suddenly know what they meant if you seen them? I can't believe that no one out there knows what these codes mean. Wouldn't the assemblers at the plants have to know what they meant to build the cars? I thought I could get help from this forum but for the most part it turned into a personal attack by a bunch of kids who weren't even born by the time half of these cars were in the junkyard!! I will continue my search elsewhere.

What purpose would it serve for me to post any part of this build sheet. I have given you several of the codes in many of the boxes and out of almost 4,000 views not one of you could tell me anything about them. Would you suddenly know what they meant if you seen them? I can't believe that no one out there knows what these codes mean. Wouldn't the assemblers at the plants have to know what they meant to build the cars? I thought I could get help from this forum but for the most part it turned into a personal attack by a bunch of kids who weren't even born by the time half of these cars were in the junkyard!! I will continue my search elsewhere.
What ever happened to the twenty dollar offer??????????????????????????????????? Im not knowledgeable on builtsheets and such but what you presented was true then it would be a 1 of a kind car (thats not even yours) You haven't shown any proof so what else did you expect!

What purpose would it serve for me to post any part of this build sheet. I have given you several of the codes in many of the boxes and out of almost 4,000 views not one of you could tell me anything about them. Would you suddenly know what they meant if you seen them? I can't believe that no one out there knows what these codes mean. Wouldn't the assemblers at the plants have to know what they meant to build the cars? I thought I could get help from this forum but for the most part it turned into a personal attack by a bunch of kids who weren't even born by the time half of these cars were in the junkyard!! I will continue my search elsewhere.

The fact that no one has ever heard of the codes you supplied should tell you something. What folks here want to know is, is there really a real buildsheet with the codes you describe? If so, we'd like to see it, otherwise we don't have much to go on to help you figure it all out. Without anything substantive to go on, skepticism will run rampant. Folks here want to help, but you aren't giving them much to go on to provide you with any help (and the help they have provided you ignore because it's not what you want to hear).

"My sister's husband's, uncle's second cousin has this car that has a rocket engine that was installed at the factory! It was used only in passing gear and was a little known option. The car's legit, but I can't show you any photos of the car with the rocket installed and I have no documentation but the brackets for the rocket are still in the trunk so that proves it!" An extreme example, but I think you see what I'm getting at.

What purpose would it serve for me to post any part of this build sheet. I have given you several of the codes in many of the boxes and out of almost 4,000 views not one of you could tell me anything about them. Would you suddenly know what they meant if you seen them? I can't believe that no one out there knows what these codes mean. Wouldn't the assemblers at the plants have to know what they meant to build the cars? I thought I could get help from this forum but for the most part it turned into a personal attack by a bunch of kids who weren't even born by the time half of these cars were in the junkyard!! I will continue my search elsewhere.

Wow, you'll show us...... :rolleyes:

What purpose would it serve for me to post any part of this build sheet. I have given you several of the codes in many of the boxes and out of almost 4,000 views not one of you could tell me anything about them. Would you suddenly know what they meant if you seen them? I can't believe that no one out there knows what these codes mean. Wouldn't the assemblers at the plants have to know what they meant to build the cars? I thought I could get help from this forum but for the most part it turned into a personal attack by a bunch of kids who weren't even born by the time half of these cars were in the junkyard!! I will continue my search elsewhere.

What purpose would it serve to post the pictures of ther build sheet here? Well, for one thing, at least those people here "in the Know" could tell you if it looked suspicious or fake, or if it wasn't really the "build sheet", but maybe another piece of info from the factory...

I feel like I am talking to a brick wall though, because I guess he's gone already...

As for being worried about someone "copying" the build sheet and "cloning" other cars (with "supposed" factory hood pins, etc), IMO thats is total BS... I am sure the people who "create" bogus build sheets could add some codes that would look more realistic anyway...


We are all experts tell someone asks a few questions we cant answer,then its bogus![quote] It wasn't that we couldn't ansewer the questions that made us think it is Bogus, its the lack of any proof to show that this info actually exists... It would be different IF the codes were "typical" or "generally accepted". But the "supposed" codes are completely different, so maybe its NOT even a Buildsheet, but without someone knowledgible looking at it, no one will know...

[quote=sob]With walk in options back then anything is poss.!I understand why he wont post the build sheet,I have a 69 L71 with ori.tank sticker that everybody wants me to post on the net,Why?so there will be 10000 L71 tripowers built in 69 when there were only 2722? think that the right person in the right circumstance would be able to order anything they wanted from gm in that era.Looking at this thread as a hole,the guy asked us a few legitimate questions,and all we did is scrutinize,bummer

Do you HONESTLY think the guys "creating"bogus tank stickers ALREADY know the codes for the L71 option... so "they" don't need that data...


Smells like Bain. Searching for people to back up his claim of something special, probably so he can say, "see, these "experts" agree with me"...

This thread is exactly why I would never again want to own, and why I normally go out of my way to avoid the numbers matching, over restored, it has to have the correct air in the tires crowd. This past weekend the wife and I went to a nice little cruise/show near here. Next to us was a really nice Olds 442 Hurst Indy pace car. One of 220 supposedly. An OK car, but nothing worth writing home about. Well the guy and his buddy (the comaro guy that took a year, so he tells me, to insure he had the correct grease pencil marks on the cowl of his 71 :rolleyes: ) start ripping up every car near by and then really went off when cars that they didn't think deserved awards were given them. I couldn't believe one comment in particular. Something close to him not being able to believe how poor the judging was given that fact that he had driven his beauty onto a "grass" field for the show and had "worked" hard sitting in the sun for 5 hours for the show. I went to the show to have a good time and to support a local charity not to "work" for a plastic trophy

We placed behind a 78 nova with a cheesy two tone puck and roll interior, and they had removed the factory air compressor, left the air/heater box and simply clipped the lines off. I congratulated the guy on his 2nd place trophy and enjoyed the rest of my weekend. A little over a year ago I was in a show where I beat a friend's 502 powered "real" SS just based on the detail and appearance of my 72. Now mind you, I had been runner up to him based on the engine and "real" SS status a number of times prior to that. He has not entered the car in a show I'm in since. :confused:

I can't imagine going through what you guys are dragging this guy through just because I have, or even just because I think I have this or that. I also can't imagine being so paranoid about what I have or think I have to not want to share the build sheet or pictures of the car. What has my hobby come to?

Rick, you are missing the point. He came here looking for answers, and in a fashion, he got them. He just didn't like the answers he got and appears unwilling to provide proof to the contrary. You are an educator, would you accept an answer as valid from a student if you didn't feel they understood how that answer was arrived at?

I've seen plenty of guys with modified or customized cars act as bad or worse than the pair you describe you met at your local show, so don't try to lay that kind of behavior solely at the feet of those who enjoy the numbers game. There are plenty of idiots throughout the hobby, throughout ANY hobby for that matter. It's been my experience though, that there are far more wonderful people in the hobby than bad, whether they like 'em restored, modified or wild.

The proof that the whole thing is bougis is he tries to prouve the altered wheelbase ( by altered front a frames ?? ) not even knowing the correct reasen for changing the wheelbase, to put more weight on the rear wheels.

Rick (Professor SS),

I agree with what Rich was saying...

furthermore, this gentleman was obviously more like one of these people you do not prefer, and less of a "hobbiest" like yourself (and I). I think chevbob mentioned that he was going to buy or was offered the car, but he turned it down because of "no documentation". Now his friend "has" documentation, and the price has increased... The pictures of the car looked like it was a fairly nice car.... Enjoy it as that, a nice car...

What purpose would it serve for me to post any part of this build sheet.I don't know? Maybe you weren't too worried about what your imaginary friend might think? :sad:
http://img283.imageshack.us/img283/9700/1114vn.jpg
http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/460/2223dt.jpg

Yes, I was so tired of being called a liar I did have a weak moment where I did post these. I felt so awful that I was betraying a friends trust I deleted the post but not before 6 people viewed. I was really hoping that no one had saved it and it would not have been posted, Thanks alot!!

Go ahead, pick this apart too, I know you will.

Boy there Bobby you seem to have a attitude problem. How can that be solved. Can you get it through your thick head that these guys on this board are the most knowledgeble(sp) chevelle enthusiests around? They are just trying to help. I don't get it are you for real? Let the sun come out rainyface!!

I found this ,but its a new RPO code http://aplsweb.com/Topics/TopicPix/RPO.pdf

6BL 41520 P FLH M COMPONENT FRT LH COMPUTER SEL SUSP (6BL) 931026 E 1 E A

Let the sun come out rainyface!!


Uh,did you really just say rainyface?

I did a search for 396 v8 6bl and i came up with this page but i cant view it, at work. Would someone check it out.

http://netti.nic.fi/~hannux/c/rpo-koodit.htm Look for 6bl.

Im pretty sure 6bl is not six barrel , just an rpo code, i also found 7BL.

I looked at those and they seem to be trim options for a 17 digit vin from a 88 camaro. Nothing to do with the classics.

ROBC i just posted a new link , check that one out.

both the 6bl and 7bl have to do with computer selected suspension parts. Nice try but I think we dont have to worry about a chevelle with a 2x3 setup ever being built.

"This thread is exactly why I would never again want to own, and why I normally go out of my way to avoid"....................Thats exactly the point,you dont own a documented L78,"copo" or equivalent which is why you could care less about what clone builders are doing,much like i dont own a coin collection,so i could care less whos making fake liberty nickles. We who spend alot of $$ and countless hours buying documented and rare cars and searching high and low for authentic cars dont want our investments compromised by clone builders,hacks and profiteers on fake cars and crazy claims to one off special vehicles .Thats the reason why SOME of us have a problem with cars that are recreated and forgeries alike. I am speaking of any clone or fake not solely referencing the car described in this thread.I dont think anyone needs to show proof they have a real car,but then again dont ask for help with documenting it unless your willing to show the proof.

I see your point, but my point is that this kind of argument, on both sides, is all to common and almost always goes the route this has. You're right I not only avoid the fanatic numbers guys on the one side, but like everyone else, I also avoid the incredibly stupid and the obnoxious liars on the other end as well. All I am saying is, instead of fighting over it, just say, I'm skeptical and leave it at that.

The guy says hey I got this or that. Some take the high road and say great may I see? If the guy than says no, that is his call and they walk away. Unfortunately, all to many say "no way, it's a fake, your full of it..etc..etc.." If he asks questions and you sincerely feel you know the answer state the answer, and cite your basis. Like, the history manual says this, or I owned one in the day and it had this, etc. To say no way your a liar, or your nuts, or that is impossible is not only foolish but also self serving.

I engaged in the argument on this site a couple of years ago over the possibility that an SS was or could have been built that had a 307 in it. In that conversation I produced the original sales brochure that I was given when I was shopping my 1972 chevelle in late 71. It lists the 307 as an optional engine for the SS. During that discussion some old timer chimed in and said he or a relative, can't remember which, had worked the line and in fact a limited number of SSs went out with 307s in them. The guy was damn near burned at the stake.

Recently I got into a discussion with someone about the heavy chevy. I had a good buddy in the navy that couldn't afford an SS when I got mine so he ordered a heavy with a carpet floor covering instead of the rubber. I rode in that car many times from 72 until 75 and I'm almost positive I can tell the difference between the rubber floor coverings my father's farm and work trucks always had and carpet. The guy told me I was smoking something, you couldn't get carpet on a Heavy.

My point is. If your convinced that an option was not available and he insists he has proof it was, fine. Nothing wrong with asking to see it. He doesn't want to show it, it is common courtesy to say, OK and move on. Taking it to a personal level and starting the name calling because you know, or think you know this or that doesn't do anything but diminish our sport. He asked specific questions and your claim to have answered them. You are the experts, you've pointed that out. I am not, I'll admit that right up front. I only know what I've seen and experienced. I know 70-72 cars from owning one new, several used, and having built one and now being well on my way though another one. I don't know everything there is to know about them and I do rely on you experts for information and help. But, I'll never understand why a car that was COPO or dealer modified in the day is something special to you guys when one that has since been modified in the same, or even a better way is to be looked down upon.

When my students come to me with claims I not only ask if they can back their assertion, but I make sure I can back my assertion as well. I'll say I disagree because of this or that. I don't say, your nuts because I never heard that or seen it before. None of us can definitely claim that we know every available option both back office and or authorized dealer installed was either available or installed. A factory 6 pack with cowl induction? Doesn't seem likely, but neither does a Heavy with carpet or a 307 SS. But not only prove to me that there is no proof one exists, "prove" to me none ever did before you dig out your BS meter.

So what does everyone think of the picture of the sheet posted?

Any ideas yet?

that looks like 6 3L to me...is a 396 a 6.3 liter?

that looks like 6 3L to me...is a 396 a 6.3 liter?

naa, 6.3L is 382.4ci

But like you said it does look like 63L being "Light saddle metallic" i believe, or either means a secondary color.

Other codes i found
UM2 Radio, AM-FM with stereo tape

I could care less because it is a hobby for me. It is not an investment, a my member is bigger than yours, or I have more money than you do thing. I owned an original 454 chevelle. I ordered it new. You couldn't trade me my current car for it. It wasn't as nice originally as your so called original numbers matching cars that the investors and numbers guys attempt to pass off as original. None of them were. I am willing to bet your car is so over correct that it isn't even close to what it was actually like the day it rolled off the showroom floor.

My "real SS" wasn't as nice, as safe or as fast as my small block powered 72. The very tone of your post " Thats exactly the point,you don't own a documented L78,"copo" or equivalent " says it all. You're worried about "your investment" I'm trying to enjoy my hobby. That means I'll throw a cowl induction hood on a malibu if I like the looks of it. If I decide to put in a round gage dash, who is to to say I shouldn't just because your afraid your investment can some how be diminished in value when one fool trying to make money on a car tricks another fool looking to make money on the investment into buying one that isn't this or that. Quite frankly cars like yours make it hard to afford nice cars like mine for the average guy. Fakes wouldn't exist without the feeding frenzy that accompanies that mindset.

now I'm doing just what I was speaking out against, taking it to a level that it should not go to. I out of this thread. Lets go over and argue about round vs oval, I don't really care about that either, or bush vs kerry or something civil for awhile.

Holy cow professor take it easy before you blow a gasket. Don't worry about it so much. When it comes down to it, it's just another old chevy.

So what does everyone think of the picture of the sheet posted?

Any ideas yet?

Looks to me like some of the numbers are handwritten.. JMO nothing more or less.

naa, 6.3L is 382.4ci

But like you said it does look like 63L being "Light saddle metallic" i believe, or either means a secondary color.

Other codes i found
UM2 Radio, AM-FM with stereo tape

forgive my ignorance, not good with conversions it was just an idea lol

Looks to me like some of the numbers are handwritten.. JMO nothing more or less.

The 6 beside the "3L" does look alittle out of round. $ship ,now that i look at it again the 3 in 396 is hand written too!! wth?

We who spend alot of $$ and countless hours buying documented and rare cars and searching high and low for authentic cars dont want our investments compromised by clone builders,hacks and profiteers on fake cars and crazy claims to one off special vehicles .Thats the reason why SOME of us have a problem with cars that are recreated and forgeries alike. I am speaking of any clone or fake not solely referencing the car described in this thread.

IMO, I see nothing wrong with flooding the market with copies... Sure, I'd be upset if it was my "investment," (like my home) but personally, I'd be happy if all Chevelle were not worth $10... Then the "Investors" would go away and leave the cars (and prices) for the hobbiest, the person that wants these cars to drive and enjoy as they were intended to be...

If investors cause the values to escalate, then naturally there are going to be "fakes" copies, replicas and clones (or whatever else you want to call them... Some of these are built for profit and some are built because there is no other way for the enthusiast to enjoy one of these without building it themselves... Hmm, maybe I'll take a poll just for fun...

new to this but looks like two different typewriters.On the second group the 6's look different the second one looks written.

IMO, I see nothing wrong with flooding the market with copies... Sure, I'd be upset if it was my "investment," (like my home) but personally, I'd be happy if all Chevelle were not worth $10... Then the "Investors" would go away and leave the cars (and prices) for the hobbiest, the person that wants these cars to drive and enjoy as they were intended to be...

If investors cause the values to escalate, then naturally there are going to be "fakes" copies, replicas and clones (or whatever else you want to call them... Some of these are built for profit and some are built because there is no other way for the enthusiast to enjoy one of these without building it themselves... Hmm, maybe I'll take a poll just for fun...

Thats really a great way to look at it. When the so called investors realize that they might be getting a clone and not that ultra rare vehicle they'll stop paying outragous prices for them and then people will stop over pricing vehicles then in time clones would stop poping up. Then the normal person would be able to get a good fixerupper or father/son project.

15 or so years im going to need a 68 project car but im not looking forward to the price its going to be, thats IF the current trend keeps up.

I looked at those and they seem to be trim options for a 17 digit vin from a 88 camaro. Nothing to do with the classics.

Surely you're not suggesting that the 88 Camaro is not a classic, are you? ;)

"I could care less because it is a hobby for me. It is not an investment".........So then what is the problem with investing in something you also have a passion for???? Or can you only be a hobbyist OR an investor and not both????

You might get an altered wheel base if you reversed the front control arms from side to side. Wouldn't drive too well though. I think I remember reading a long time ago that GM had contemplated a tripower 396 but never actually did it. A single 780 holley was a better setup anyway. I had people give me the "Yeah right." look back in the late '70s and early '80s when I was looking for dealer info and stuff for the COPO Chevelle which I bought new. They thought that they were getting their legs pulled. Here in Canada, we have the GM documentation to back us up. Take my VIN and check for your self. GM did some one off show cars and such and there were the obvious COPO deals. For drag racing they built the light weight cars in very limited numbers in the early sixties. There were also special trim packages sold in certain parts of the country. As with any car, rock solid documentation is the bottom line if you want top dollar for your car. Most fakes have the odd flaw that gives them away. You just have to see all the little clues. Far fetched stories are usually just that but you just never know. That's part of the fun with these old cars.

Interesting, just like in Poker, it isn't always a happy event when a hand is called. Even worse when the player thinks he has better cards than he does.

There are actually better places than Team Chevelle for validating a car, all of which involve bringing the car to a recognized authority and paying for their services. None of us have seen the car, no reason for getting mental.

For all who may have wondered: moving the front wheels closer towards the back does not aid in weight transfer, and worsens cornering ability. Moving the rear axle forward, or setting the engine back does aid weight transfer.

Bring it out to the shows or keep it locked away, either way is good. Restore your car or gut it out and go dragging, both are good too.

This is a hobby, and I like all ends of the spectrum. There have always been, and always will be, those who are more fanatical and consumed by the process - and they miss out on a lot of fun. A lot of the car hobby is simply unexplainable other than fullfilling some otherwise unmet need.

You may be disappointed to realize that this car is not a unicorn. Do not let your learning get in the way of your having fun. I personally like drag racing a lot, and more than a few times the track has humbled me. The last time I went out my hood flew off - and one of my buddy's wife got it all on video!

But by all means if you publicly proclaim you have proof of something be prepared to see it all the way through. I personally love it when the light of day is shed on the unusual ends of our cars histories. Sometimes though we get our toes singed when we put our feet on the coals, do not let that stop you.

Thomas

"This thread is exactly why I would never again want to own, and why I normally go out of my way to avoid"....................Thats exactly the point,you dont own a documented L78,"copo" or equivalent which is why you could care less about what clone builders are doing,much like i dont own a coin collection,so i could care less whos making fake liberty nickles. We who spend alot of $$ and countless hours buying documented and rare cars and searching high and low for authentic cars dont want our investments compromised by clone builders,hacks and profiteers on fake cars and crazy claims to one off special vehicles .Thats the reason why SOME of us have a problem with cars that are recreated and forgeries alike. I am speaking of any clone or fake not solely referencing the car described in this thread.I dont think anyone needs to show proof they have a real car,but then again dont ask for help with documenting it unless your willing to show the proof.
I agree,from this thread you can tell who has real cars and who doesnt,can you say dead horse?

I have seen both ends of the spectrum. My aunt and uncle restore classics to perfect condition and never drive them. I mod my chevelle to fit my mods cause it's what i'm into. I understand their view and i understand mine. I don't see the problem in taking a base 71 chevelle and modding it to be a kick a$$ daily driver with a big motor and a big stereo. I also don't see a problem in taking a 1970 Chevelle SS Ls6 to every show in the country but never putting a mile on it! I don't mind having older guys saying i ruined a classic muscle car by putting subs in the trunk cause, honestly, i think they ruined a classic muscle car by never LIGHTING UP THE TIRES!!!!!! The only thing that gets on my nerves is when these guys say stuff like: "Well, i have a 1970 Chevelle SS Ls-6 and your car is a piece of crap." Or the ones that say "It's JUST a 1971 Malibu" Well, fine say whatever you want, i still see it as a muscle car, and unless your car has a buildsheet, i consider to be on the same level as mine! Anybody can say their car is a TRUE SS...without documents!!! Even if you say you are the original owner, i will have a hard time believing you! Don't get me wrong, i respect fully restored SS's with documents with the up most respect, but i don't see why people don't feel the need to respect a nicely done malibu or even base chevelle!!! I mean, i found the buildsheet for my car and it is a CONFIRMED 71 Chevelle Malibu 400 ordered with a th-400, 12 bolt rear, 4.10 gears w/posi, ac, disc brakes up front, rear window defrogger etc... So, if i'm not mistaken, that would make my car more rare than most SS's!!! But no, everybody sees it and notices the badge on the side and says "I'll give you $4500 for it!" Well guess what, you could take a flying leap for all i care!

This whole restored vs. non-restored car thing gets worse every year! I don't see why we can't just respect eachother for what we decide to do with OUR cars!!! Hey, if the owner of that 71 Hemi Cuda Convertible decides to install a complete leather and suede interior, i'd be there to help him. Likewise, if a guy found the original straight six motor for his BASE chevelle, i'd be there to help him too! In my eyes, the only way you can ruin a classic is to CRUSH IT!!!! Remember, it is just metal and plastic, it can be remade! Sure there are parts that aren't made anymore but people made them therefore, people can REMAKE them!!!

Well, if i offended anyone....good, cause that is a sign that we still live in America! Oh, and for those who restore the ULTIMATE rare cars, has it ever occured to you what COULD happen? With all these people looking for SS's and cloning non-SS's, soon the BASE chevelles will be more rare! And if that day ever comes, i'll give you $20 for your perfectly restored 1970 Chevelle SS LS-6 Convertible!!!!! LMAO!!!! Just Kidding!! If that day ever did come, i'd cry along with all the other rare car owners!!! Later!

Ok guys. I've busted the hoax.

I want you to look at the pictures of the buildsheets posted.

Compare all of the number 6's. Note that the 6 BL was actually a 4BL. If you look closely, you'll see a round circle all around the 6 where whiteout or the like was used. This is why the B looks like a 3. They partially covered the B and made it appear to be a 3. But if you compare all the 3's you'll see some problems there too.
The 3 in 396 looks different than all of the other 3's. As does the 9 and the 6.
I think somebody modified this entire line.

Now look at the type under "XXX CUSTOMER ORDER"
It is smaller.
Also compare the numbers 2 and 5 to numbers typed on the other picture. They are much different in shape.

This is bogus all the way.

For the untrained eye.......... somebody who could be a potential buyer......... looking at this buildsheet and not thinking to question the type, would very likely overlook these obvious errors in their haste.


I should have been a detective.

Nate

In before the lock. I know its coming. :D

YOU'RE RIGHT!!!! I never even saw those pics on that other page! I saved them and loaded them into a like $500 picture authenticity program and OMG!!!! Here is what i found when i loaded his pics and a sample pic of my buildsheet:

You were right about all of your observations. I leveled the pic by using that horizontal bar on the second pic and then took micromeasurements. The 396 and 6 (of the barrel) were off by quite a bit of millimeter fractions. However, on the other lines of both his and mine, the levels were SURPRISINGLY almost EXACTLY straight! Proving alteration had occured! Also, the n/a of the decals was found to be inconsistant with boldness, font, level etc... Don't know if that is correct because i have no point of origin to horizontalize the pic. If the papre was slightly folded, this could have been the result. Also, i adjusted the gray scale and shade so that anything that was remotely shaded/darkened turned blue and what i found was quite surprising!! There are OBVIOUS boxes around these letters/numbers: the 3/9/6 combo, the 6 bl, and the '1' in m-21. Also, i may be jumping the gun, but the computer found a discrempancy in the whole last line concerning the trans, it immediately noticed the variation in the word speed and then instantly noticed the "F" in Fuel and the "F" in F/S. If you look closely, the "F" in F/S has a slight ink overhang past the vertical line where the other "F" doesn't. This slight vertical onerhang is a common error in hand forged/written texts. The human eye can't create a perfect right angle and starting point like a computer can effortlessly do. Who knows, this may have been a column shift?

Well, i just thought i'd give you old timers a look into the age of technology!! LOL, it's pretty amazing that we can do ALL THOSE MEASUREMENTS with a simple home computer, but can't seem to track down a person with ALL THE COMPUTERS IN THE WORLD!!!!! LMAO!! Later!

No reason to lock this thread, on the contrary I would think that all parties involved learned a few things. To my way of thinking this thread helps to raise the bar of common knowledge - which is one of the best qualities of Team Chevelle.

Was it not just a little while back that Dan Rather got in trouble over a document that used some fonts that were not even originally available. There was definitely some funning done with that buildsheet.

Thomas

No reason to lock this thread, on the contrary I would think that all parties involved learned a few things. To my way of thinking this thread helps to raise the bar of common knowledge - which is one of the best qualities of Team Chevelle.

Was it not just a little while back that Dan Rather got in trouble over a document that used some fonts that were not even originally available. There was definitely some funning done with that buildsheet.

Thomas

Exactly! As with what Nate said, i would have NEVER looked that hard at a build sheet if i was buying the car! I would have just assumed it was authentic! But, when you look closer it is actually OBVIOUS!!! Also, there were ALOT of things that people noticed that i never would have! Like, (i dont recall the member, sorry!) at the begining of the posts, someone mentioned the dust shields being riveted and not bolted!!! You guys are truly crazy for noticing this stuff!!! But i would love to learn this craziness!!

I think you guys are right, the more I look this build sheet over highly magnified the more "funny" things I see. Then I ran across one area where the lines forming some of the boxes didn't quite line up with each other. This is probably why it isn't stuctured like the other build sheets, even with the others from the Leed's Plant. It might even be the product of several build sheets put together.

What a sick,cruel joke! I think the original owner (long deceased) made this up and stuffed it in the rear seat. Here I have been running around like a little kid with a treasure map. I'm sure it wasn't the owner of the car now, he's been acting worse than I have. I'm mailing all this stuff back to him today and just telling him "I couldn't find out anything". No sense in trying to tell him it's fake, he wouldn't believe me anyway and would not sell the car for any amount of money. I'm so glad this is over so I can have my life back! Now I can get back to working on my Camaro. Thank God it is just a plain old, nothing special car that doesn't even have the original drive train!!

So, I was wrong and owe you all an apology. I'm sorry, especially to the guys I got a little short with. Speaking of short, I think I will shrink to about 1'' tall, stick my tail between my legs, and slither on out of here! At least I hope that everyone knows I WAS telling you the truth, that's all that really matters to me. You have to admit though, this has probably added more excitement here than you've had in a while hasn't it? Later, Bob

no problem Bob
you have done something that hardly anyone does
-realize the problems
-and apologize
that is an honorable thing to do
and requires respect
unlike some people that will say they have something and get in a bunch when everyone calls it
just hope your buddy didn't pay the top dollar for that car
which kinda sounds like he didn't
it is still a nice looking car
and as long as he didn't pay to much for the car - the only thing lost here was the fact that the car was not the dream car that he expected
no hard feelings here bob:thumbsup:

I'm mailing all this stuff back to him today and just telling him "I couldn't find out anything".


I think you should tell him about the theories you did find out.

So, I was wrong and owe you all an apology. I'm sorry, especially to the guys I got a little short with. Speaking of short, I think I will shrink to about 1'' tall, stick my tail between my legs, and slither on out of here! At least I hope that everyone knows I WAS telling you the truth, that's all that really matters to me. You have to admit though, this has probably added more excitement here than you've had in a while hasn't it? Later, Bob[/QUOTE]That is nice of you to apologize Bob,and as I thought and commemented all along,that you were just seeking info but diddnt want to betray your buddy,but I dont think you should be the only one to appogize,Darryl

FWIW I read most of your other posts also, you have been consistant in your posts. I think you are a "stand up guy".

The only thing confusing to me about this whole thing is the theory that someone (the original owner?) put a bogus buildsheet under the back seat of this car 30 years ago. Why??

The only thing confusing to me about this whole thing is the theory that someone (the original owner?) put a bogus buildsheet under the back seat of this car 30 years ago.
Ya, I was kinda thinking that myself. The origional owner had some real forsight didnt he? To realize he could forge a buildsheet so the next owner would be able to document authenticity and get rich by selling the car on E-bay 30 years later.

Well,the car might only be worth what its worth, but That build sheet itself might be worth some bucks as the first known forgery of a buildsheet ever done.
Throw the forged car in with the altered build sheet and this is a really rare collectable combination. I think it should go down to B-J for the next auction.

"The only thing confusing to me about this whole thing is the theory that someone (the original owner?) put a bogus buildsheet under the back seat of this car 30 years ago. Why??............................................. .............................That way you can blame the "long deceased" original owner for making up fake documents

In 1980 I had a Heavy Chevy. I found the build sheet for it. Later I made copies and put them back under the seat for future owners. The guy that bought the car did get the original when I sold it to him. True story.
What is funny about that car was I cloned it back in the day. Every detail except the VIN/COWl tag. It might be worth more now as a Heavy??

but under the RPO section it does kind of look like a "3". (Grasping for straws now!) Build sheet is in very good shape but a few places a little hard to read...

Does not the 69 Chevelle have a build sheet like the 69 Camaro? A Chassis broadcast sheet, and a Body broadcast sheet? These poor imitations are obviously from a 70 or 71 sheet, this is why the box numbers do not coincide with known sheets. This sheet doesn't look as bad as the one I was faxed for a 69 camaro last week, though...I'll have to scan and post that one for a good laugh!

Well,the car might only be worth what its worth, but That build sheet itself might be worth some bucks as the first known forgery of a buildsheet ever done.


Au contraire'
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/69-CHEVELLE-CAMARO-IMPALA-NOVA-DOCUMENTATION-PACKAGE_W0QQitemZ4565502482QQcategoryZ10076QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

Flattery ain't the most sincere form when it comes to muscle cars.

chevbob,
your so called "friend" has owned this car since the late 70's.
Read that again three times and think about it.
He knows full well what his car is all about.
I think he's messin with ya. Maybe he wants to sell it to you for big dollars !

If not, then maybe he's just playing a joke on you.

Or maybe at one time some 25+ years ago, somebody who owned the car found the original buildsheet and decided that it needed to be corrected after some modifications were made. I think if you knew all the previous owners, you'd find whoever did this.

Whatever the case may be, it seems these modifications to the buildsheet were done 25+ years ago. Bear in mind that this is long before these buildsheets became as important as they seem to be today.
I suspect that a previous owner swaped out the drivetrain (hence the numbers don't match), and was just proud of his creation. Maybe he thought that if he modified the buildsheet to match the drivetrain, a future owner might think he/she had stumbled onto something really special and would have the pride in ownership that he did.????

I would like to see the pictures of the entire buildsheet just to see if there are any other modifications.

I think you should call your friend. Tell him that his car is actually a prototype that was supposed to be demolished, but was accidentally sold and that GM has been looking for it. Tell him there is a $500,000.00 reward, as this car was never supposed to get sold, but that a rookie salesman had screwed up and sold it while his boss was out of town.
Tell him that after a lot of investigation, you have the name of the contact to turn the car over to and that it's only fair that the reward should be split between you and him 50/50. Tell him that if he tries to find this contact himself, that he'll blow his cover as they are now aware that the car still exists and that they are avidly looking for it. Tell him that a GM lawyer and a representative from GM will be at your house at midnight on Saturday and that the car must be at your house for pickup. You'll have your lawyer there too.

When he shows up, tell him, "now who's playing the joke on who"?

Nate

That is funny! I like it.
Actually, he called me yesterday and said he talked to some old boy who worked at GM back in those days. This guy, he said, knew exactly what the car is, an experimental drag car! The man told him one way to find out was to measure from the core support to the front of the crossmember or some such thing. Anyway, if it measured 25 1/2'' instead of the 27 1/2'' a normal Chevelle is, then that is what it was because they put those on special frames you know! Well, he is tickled pink because now he knows where his shortened wheelbase comes from. That is why I thought your story was funny, because if I did tell him that he might believe it now! Hey, I like the guy and we have been "phone friends" for about 2 yrs now since I first called him about the car. I always have that "what if" though. Next time I take a trip and visit him I will take that measurement myself and let you know.

chevbob, No fault of yours but my BS meter is pegged again.

[QUOTE=chevbob]That is funny! I like it.
Actually, he called me yesterday and said he talked to some old boy who worked at GM back in those days. This guy, he said, knew exactly what the car is, an experimental drag car!QUOTE]

go back and re-read reply #3 from me.

now, let's get everyone's blood pressure up a little.... Was the frame shorter just in front, or was it a diffrent frame underneath completely? If all new frame, why would GM still use a standard car w/some options, and not go for the seat/stick/wheel only car with all block-offs?
If the frame s shorter in just the front, how is the front clip held on and looking "normal"? Things still have to be bolted on, so they made new fenders? New core support? I liked the old story better.

sniff sniff sniff, I smell something. good thing I'm on this table, so I don't step in it.

Note the3s & 6s both are in 2 differnt fonts on that partial build sheet ?? Read my previous reply about altered wheel base. The reason for altered wheel base is to move the rear end forward so more weight is on the rear end for better traction. changing the front a frames back would only make it worse. I still think they dont know what they are doing & making it worse the farther they go.

Also, did anyone else notice that his car seems to be shrinking? He first told me the wheelbase was 110 1/2'' and now it's a full 2'' difference?
Yes, maybe it is time to just close this thread so you guys can get back to some real issues. Unless you want to hear about this cousin of mine who ordered a Vega with a 426 Hemi? JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!

I agree, close it. We now have the proof that it isn't "Rare 69:Now have proof!"

MYTH BUSTED!

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

chevbob, No fault of yours but my BS meter is pegged again.

Mine pegged so hard, the damn thing fell off the table! Looks like a girkin jerkin to me!


Rocky

Really entertaining thread to read... but <click pic>,

http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/Yosemite.gif (http://www.nonstick.com/sounds/Yosemite_Sam/ltys_078.wav)

The tellers of tall tales usually undo themselves by never really being able to tell when to stop - they literally begin to believe their own stories. Probably because it gets them the attention that they otherwise lack.

Either that, or this is funning at its best! This is where the internet gets tricky - there is no good way to throw a knowing glance as the yarn spinning goes on and on.

I now see a different purpose for this topic: can it get to 10,000+ views? I say we give it legs and see if it can go the distance. Go ahead chevbob, give us all the fool speed you can.

Thomas

This one was good reading, all the way to the end. I realize that this has been sniffed out as a hoax already, but there are a couple more things I wanted to point out. On a 69 car with the "SS-only" colors of Monaco Orange (code 72) or Daytona Yellow (code 76), the codes would be on the build sheet and cowl tag. Thus, there would be no "ZP3" special paint designation needed on the sheet.

Re: the CM air cleaner code, that was used for 402 closed-element air cleaners in 70 and possibly other years.

hey chevbob,
you might get some good answers from this web site i found about a week ago. there is a lot of high dollar cars and talk on it. good luck!

detroithorsepower.com

Wow,..I just read this thread from start to finish for the first time. It was better than any novel at Barnes&Noble. I agree with everyone hear about modifications original, repo cars,..etc. Basically, my philosophy is drive your cars and fix them up anyway you want as long as you don't lie about what you've done.

In that vein, I recommend everyone on this and any classic/muscle car board read a great article in the October issue of "Sports Car Market" magazine. The cover title shows an old Jag with the words "Internet Scammer Comes After Us".

The story is not about the Jag but about a guy who unknowingly called the editor of the magazine with an offer to sell him a 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Gullwing. I won't give it all away but the seller was using pictures of someone elses car as well as the Vin and other documentation. The conversations between the prospective buyer(who was very knowlegeable), the scammer, and the real owner of the car are hilarious.

Of course it's not really funny when you think about how many times this happens on EBAY or Craigs List, or other sites where these scammers troll for victims.

Looks likes it over -- I'm going to miss this thread it was great entertainment. At one time it looked like heated tempers were going to get out of hand but Chevbob pulled it all back together.

Is this guy related to that guythat posts in the COPO section.... Bain???

The story is not about the Jag but about a guy who unknowingly called the editor of the magazine with an offer to sell him a 1955 Mercedes-Benz 300 SL Gullwing. I won't give it all away but the seller was using pictures of someone elses car as well as the Vin and other documentation.

Of course it's not really funny when you think about how many times this happens on EBAY or Craigs List, or other sites where these scammers troll for victims.

THIS HAPPENED TO ME!!!!! I was at school one day and my auto shop teacher came up and said he'd give me $10,000 for my car if i took it off. I was so confused!! He got on ebay and showed me MY OWN CAR!!!! I freaked and emailed ebay with pics of my car, the title and everything and they took the listing off! It was seriously like the scariest thing ever!! I was affraid if someone bid, won, and then was ripped off, they would do like some license search and come and steal my car!!! Ugh!

I have to say this was without question the most entertaining thread I've ever read on Team Chevelle.