Well, I decided to redo the paint & body and wanted your opinions on the estimate I got a few weeks back.

First off, I want to say that the shop, which is in the next village, has been around for 15 years and is owned / operated by a husband and wife team.

They own a few old cars such as a 67 mustang fastback, 41 chev pick up and a cooper. I have only seen the mustang up close at the shop as he drives it daily from April to Oct. The paint is 11 years old and looks brand new and is arrow straight. I also get a warm and fuzzy and do not feel like I am going to get a sub par job. They currently have a 66 chevy II and a 70 cuda in the shop, in addition to the bread and butter insurance work.

Now, for the estimate. It is broken down as follows:

Parts:.....$1900

- Rear 1/4 panels
-outer wheel wells
-trunk extensions
-lower door skins
-outer rockers
-trunk floor
-front fender lower panels

These are listed as jobber parts so I am unsure if they would be the same quality as from Year One or Ausley`s etc.

Labour.....$7,000.00

140 hours estimated. Includes installation of parts listed above, strip car, remove & reinstall fr/rear glass, strip car, paint etc..

Shop Material......$1500

PPG products. epoxy base, base coat, clear coat. Misc shop mat`l

Total.....$10,400.00 CDN

Now, I can save some costs by emoving the bumpers / trim / interior etc.

I am going for another estimate tomorrow but just wanted to get your feedback on the estimate.

Do the amount of hours seem right for changing all those panels?

Also, would you recommend taking out the engine / trans? or just mask it all off really good?

FYI, the car is going to be Lemans Blue with the white side stripe.

Thanks,

Thats a good price if you are getting some straight as an arrow panels, new quarters, and they are blasting it. The shop I'm at now for a strip, fix a few dings here and there, get it straight, block it and bc/cc starts at a bare minimum of $10K, and that is American $$. Alot of the expense with a job like that goes to the shops reputation and caliber of work. I'm awaiting pictures; my 70 is going to be le mans blue if it ever gets to that stage!
Best of Luck!!

70mousejob,

If you do not mind me asking what shop are you using? I am in Fountain Valley and am looking for a reputable shop to strip straighten and paint my car right the first time. I have heard so many horror stories...

Some mexican immigrants here did my body work and paint for $1600. :D

Replaced: front and rear glass, lower quarters on all corners, above front windshield, below rear windshield, pull dent on driver fender, ect.

Saw em working...great metalwork, no filler.

Paint could use another wetsand ect but for a daily driver its very nice, better than 95% of new vehicles around that had lots of orange peel

Chris... WARNING---LONG REPLY---

Canada is a large place, you should clarify your location. ;)

The "jobber" parts will most likely be coming through cross canada auto parts who supply the majority of sheet metal to body shops across the country. They sell to the distributor who in turn sells to the shop. Cross Canada uses Dynacorn & GoodMark restoration panels and are classified in general as US Made components. They also carry the Taiwan steel parts which would be OK for internal parts such as trunk drop off's and outter wheel houses (clam shell's) but I would stick to domestic for exterior components. The price difference is about 20%. Specify to the shop that the external parts should be US MADE and if they do resto's on a regular basis then they'll already be there. On a side note, OPG and other's sell Taiwan parts such as inner wheelwells etc, which are ok.

Prep from you:
I would suggest removing the drivetrain, interior components such as seats, carpet and panels are a good idea, less for them to do (more $$ for the job). Leave the glass in the car for transportation. Do what you can with what you are comfortable with, flatbedding the car to the shop is fine as long as you have a reputable tow'er flatbed it back home.

The Shop;
140 hours to Re & Re sounds reasonable but they based the estimates on what ? Estimating a resto is VERY DIFFICULT and is should be considered Guestimating. Is the floor good, did they get to see all the potential baddies/nasties ? You might want to add a bit to your budget for the inevitable surprises, say 20% overall at a minimum. The quote sounds fine as long as you understand that there may be unseen surprises lurking in there. You have gotten to see the end result of some of their work and can see the ongoing projects which is good. It's not hard to tell wether they do good work especially when they are in the process of building the stuff in front of you and they don't hesitate you looking at the ongoing. That is generally a good sign of confidence.

Points to look for in a shop!!!
Whatever the shop is that you go to here are some things to look for. As a basic guide, these are the kind of things that can make/break a deal. These are just simple things but it will help to make up your mind and feel comfortable. They aren't hard rules or anything like that but rather things to be considered.

</font> Is the shop organized & tidy? This usually indicates the mentality & pride in what they do.</font> Do they let you go and look at the ongoing work and point out what they are doing & answer your questions? Show's interest and positive feeling towards what they are doing.</font> Do they have seperate areas for the work being done? Meaning a tear down area, fix area, prep area for pre-paint, a clean paint booth and a clean paint room.</font> A question to ask and things to look at: What products do they use and do they intermix... Most good shops use "product families" meaning PPG Paint and related PPG products, not PPG Paint, Dupont thinners, ColorXtra Clear, Primer's from Company X. Same for filler's etc... Evercoat Family or a mix of USC Filler's, Evercoat glazes, Bondo Brand F-Glass... etc... As a Bodyman I do intermix a little as most do BUT I will NOT use a Mixed Bag of concoctions, it just isn't good!</font> Are they prepared to give you contacts/references for similar type of work ? If they are, it's good but sometimes they might want to check with people before they give out names, which is also good because they have respect for the previous customer's & about peoples privacy.</font> Do they have a "scrapbook" of the different projects they have done? It's a good indicator of the variety of work as well as showing a bit of pride in their work.</font> As I said this is basic simple things to look for & ask. I believe that Brian Martin has posted some good thoughts on this about how to select a body shop and what to look for. Search for the Basics of Basics series he has written and posted here.

Hope it Helps.

Steve has most of it covered but coming from a shop owners mouth may make it a little more real for you.

140 hours is not nearly enough for a complete restoration. If they want to do it for that, beautiful. But is that just the "estimate" that will change when they get half done at 140 and they want more money?

Two or three hundred hours is common for a project such as this.


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Confessions of a body shop owner.

“Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?”, “How do I get my body shop to work on my car?”, “My car is being held for ransom!”, or just simply “Body shop Blues”. I’m sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don’t beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior college and take a course or two in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can’t learn from a “regular” business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liqueur store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are usually owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The business man makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe’s Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things at what they can “become”, not what they “are”. When Joe sees a car he doesn’t see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don’t believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking at through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Codington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don’t doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vise on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask “Cool car, is that yours?” if he says “Naw, it’s a customers”, BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn’t have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.


2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be damn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They run a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the “Cadster”. It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn’t have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn’t take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?


So let’s say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can’t get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don’t allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a “junior chemist”, they guy that mixes products and doesn’t follow tech sheets.

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You “suggest” to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don’t EVER give him a deposit and leave the car (at least not more than a tiny amount of the estimate, say 5%). This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks or MONTHS while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don’t trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don’t want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let’s say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn’t done it or he has done poor work, you can then say “I am sorry to yank your chain, I don’t have any more money, I just lost my job” and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little ’58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30’s and 40’s vintage Fords) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn’t pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like “I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me” more like “I can’t wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers”. Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don’t get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to “show off” his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says “fix dents and rust” as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The “wife” is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.

Steve, Martin SR, Mouse,

Thanks for the replies.

Another quick question regarding the trunk. There are only a few spots inside that need replacing and I was told it would be better to replace only small areas leaving the original pan in place since this is a structural part of the body. Any truth to this? If so, I assume I can save even more by eliminating the trunk floor kit and hours to replace the whole thing vs. just a few small patches.

The 140 hours are an estimate and the shop did say it could be more or even less so I am prepared for variance either way. I am just hoping it doesn`t double! And for clarity, they are not doing a total restoration, just a body job & paint.

As for the shop, they offered references and I have also seen some of the other cars they did. They all look great. They also showwed me a scrp book of cars gpoing back 15 years. The shop crew also showed considerable interest in my car when i brought it by and they all took time from their lunch break to come out and look it over while I was speaking to the owner. I really do feel comfortable with them so I am going to use them.

That said, I did go for another estimate today at a shop that does hot rods / muscle cars only and was given a ballpark of 15K. When I mentioned the 1st shop he said he knows the guy and said he does very good work. I thought that was pretty cool.

Steve, are you in Chesterville? I am an hour away. I had some head work done once upon a time there at D & D performance.

Thanks again to everyone for your valuable input.

Chris

good luck to ya
i had the engine replaced and the price doubled from the estimate, ended up paying nearly $800.
Would have done it myself if my bud hadnt joined the army. He probably wouldnt have accepted any money, he didnt charge me a dime for pulling it.

MartinSR,
Thanks for posting that back up. I knew you wrote an excellent article on it just could remember it's title. 125% on the button. Listen, wanna import a Canadian Body Man smile.gif I wonder if there is anyway we can compile all the wisdom that you have posted here into a PDF document or into an online E-Book.... I guess we need to talk to Al about that.

Chris,
I used to live just outside of Chesterville but have now moved to Newington which is about 20 minutes N.E. of Cornwall or 1.5 hrs from Ottawa. Geez, I've probably seen your ride fly by at one point in time or another.

D&D Performance are a bunch of good lad's. They know their stuff and I had them do some of my engine work on my 64-SS and they helped me out with my 402-BBC. Eddy has it dialed! ;)

I just finished the body work & priming on of our fellow TC'ers cars, MonteMan454. It was 7 Weeks work (haven't totalled all the hrs up yet)and she'll be gorgeous. That was more Resto than anything. Totally gutted, stripped, cleaned in & out, metal worked. Items like the latches, locks, Window regulators all cleaned up, repaired etc... Just EVERYTHING from the smallest item to the shell, all done. Over 200 pic's and now looking for a good painter, cause I don't paint and the one I had lined up decided to go & do backstroke's in wiskey bottles (after 15 years of sobriety). Darn shame, great painter but the boozing changed him very very badly.

So which shop are you talking about? If it's Larry Ingram, I can VERY HIGHLY RECOMEND HIM as well as a few other's. Let me know, I'm really curious. THere are a couple around the area that look & sound good BUT (insert dialog here).

Have a Great One.
Steve

MARTINSR's advice and narrative is right on the money. Luckily, I had a close friend of the family paint my car - but the stories here are echoed in conversations at car shows constantly.

$10k for the original posters quote sounds low, but it could be reasonable. I say this because nobody knows what lurks in areas not readily visible - the estimated hours could easily double. IMO if the shop says $10k, budget $13k.

On the hours to do, I have over 110 hours on my 70 without any metal work to speak of (just 2 small spots of rust repair)

This included a mechanical strip, teardown, prime, paint, cut/buff and reassembley.

120 hours may not be enough for all of that work, unless they have some fast metalworkers...

Chris, still going black with it? If so, going to look killer...