Picked up my frame from the galvanizer yesterday. Here's what I got for $250 and NO prep work by me. Note that it was completely preped and hot dippped galvanized INSIDE and OUT. Now I'll paint it for looks but ALL the rust is gone almost forever.


http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/HGSR/galvrame1.JPG

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/HGSR/galvrame3.JPG

Here's what it looked like before.

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/HGSR/framedetail33.JPG

NICE! Very nice. If I ever am able to do another car, I'm gonna give that a try. Better than new.

what the hell is a galvanizer, is it like a hot tank? looks great, lot better then sand blasting, wish i would have gone that rout.

looks great,Herb.this kind of information is priceless,how would I go about finding someone in my area that does this?

Galvanizer? That's the process the platers use to galvanize steel. ...just prepping with the hot tanks (which may or not be hot) and then dipping or plating with that zinc compound. There's also galvanized plating (I assume electroplating), which is nice and shiny at first, but goes dull pretty fast.

That frame won't rust in your lifetime now. ...barring scratches, of course.

where did you take it... va is a days drive from me and I like the idea..

There have been alot of discussions here about galvanizing frames. The concourse guys don't like it because it's not original. The driver guys like it because it protects the frame better and easier then most other methods. There are some dangers involved with getting your frame galvanized. I suggest that you do a search and read the back threads. I just did a search using "galvanized" "frame" and came up with 38 threads. I remember also that someone had posted a listing for a galvanizers association, so that you can try and find someone local to you. Personally, when I pull the body from my car, I'm gonna use the place in Virginia that everyone has had success with getting thier frame done. I don't like to be the guinea pig.

Thats phenomenal!!! Makes we wnat to pull the body of teh frame right now. The best part is all the crud in the frame rails is gone!

I remember something about the galvinizer not performing a final step so the paint will stick?????


Vince

I think that was an oil quenching that they need to skip, right?

Guys,

Thanks for the good words. However, Pete Lohr, the moderator of the Stationwagon forum here deserves all the credit. He turned me onto it. I recommend you look at his profile and visit his site. It's a wealth of information. He's been a great help to me. He's a mechanical engineer that designs launchers for the Army I think. If there was a danger to galvanizing a Chevelle frame, Pete wouldn't do it. The only danger I'm aware of is making sure you don't inhale while welding on galvanized steel. You get galvanic poisoning. Just make sure you have a fan blowing the fumes away from you and even that's not a problem. It's done on ships and marine use steel all the time. Also, there was no warping from the less than 3 min. it spends in the molten zinc vat at 750 degrees. I've checked the measurements. They're still right on.

I'm the one that posted the galvanizer's association link in a previous post. If you Google "Galvanizing" you will find a link to a list of galvanizers in each state. We use Virginia Galvanizing in Ashland VA. They have done many for folks on this forum and are great to work with. And they know exactly how to do these frames. They do one or two a month now. The best part is that the ONLY prep work you need to do is insure every bolt, nut and fastener is removed or it becomes permanently attached. Drop it off and a week later it's ready to be picked up. Theses folks will even let you leave your trailer in their locked yard until you come back to get the frame. If you look at the list I mentioned you can find out if there is a galvanizer near you.

The process is relatively simple. They dip the frame (on edge) in a boiling vat of alklyd solution to remove any grease, oil, paint and undercoating. Then it goes into a vat of hot hydrochloric acid solution that removes the rust (no solid metal) inside and out of the frame. Next, it's dipped in a 5ft wide by 8 ft deep by 40 ft long vat if molten zinc which also contains nickle and bismuth. When it's removed it's set aside to cool and then placed on a rack in the yard with the gavanized steel bridge girders and other finish steel items (like steel stair cases). And yes, you want to tell them to skip the last step which is oil quenching if you are going to paint it. If you don't paint it, it'll look dull like a guard rail in a few weeks.

When you get it home, you simply wash it down with white vinigar (at $2 a gal) and prime and paint it with latex primer and paint just for cosmetics. Yup, I said latex. That's what's used on galvanized steel in a marine environment where repeated immersion in salt water occurrs. The neat thing is the soap and water clean up. I bought the galvanized metal primer where Pete recommended on his site for $16 a gal.. I too will be using a semi gloss black latex for a finish coat. Oh yeah, BTW, if gavanized steel gets chipped by a stone, (which is highly unlikely since it's essentially an armour coating) rust will not migrate under it.

I also had my crossmember done and all the CA's. I should have taken the front and rear bumper brackets too. Would not have added to the cost of $250, TOTAL.

If you are doing a frame-off and aren't dong a concours show car, this is the only way to go. It's the only way to get TOTAL rust protection for the frame because it's galvanized inside and out! (so is the crossmember)

Just make sure you do a search here and visit Pete's site BEFORE you get yours done.

/herb

Hey Herb, I just pulled the frame from under my 67. I might just drive up and pay you a visit with my frame. Maybe you can show me where this place is and give me some more details.

NJ - American Galvanizing - just off the AC Expressway - Folsom?? I can get the address & tele # when I get to work later this AM.

American Galvanizing
Folsom, NJ
Tel: 609-567-2090

FYI, I do know that whenever I have anything galvanized (usually pipe), the preferred condition is bare steel - rust is fine, just no paint. Paint must be removed prior to dropping off or it will need to be sandblasted at extra charge.

There have been alot of discussions here about galvanizing frames. The concourse guys don't like it because it's not original. The driver guys like it because it protects the frame better and easier then most other methods. There are some dangers involved with getting your frame galvanized. I suggest that you do a search and read the back threads. I just did a search using "galvanized" "frame" and came up with 38 threads. I remember also that someone had posted a listing for a galvanizers association, so that you can try and find someone local to you. Personally, when I pull the body from my car, I'm gonna use the place in Virginia that everyone has had success with getting thier frame done. I don't like to be the guinea pig.
hey ted
lebanon valley galvanizers ( off of 81 an exit north of 78 (rt 72 I think))
does that kind of work too
they say a frame would fall in the minimum charge area of around 400 bucks
I talked to the guy while I was calibrating their large capacity scale
and herb
that looks real nice - like the way it came out
those rear control arms look like they fit the ticket huh
you and jr have a good time with the re-assembly can't wait to see the finished product

Thanks Tom, yeah those lower RCA's came out perfect.

John 67SS,

You might want to do a search on "gavanizing" on this forum too.

VA Galvanizing (http://www.vagalvanizing.com/) about 2 miles west of I95 off exit 89 in Ashland, just north of Richmond. All you do is take your frame there and drop it off. They're used to seeing them now. Talk to Oscar, the plant manager. Tell them Pete or Herb sent you. He'll take good care of you. BTW, paint, grease, oil and undercoating are no problem for them. They boil the entire frame in alkly to remove it (same stuff that is used to boil an engine block prior to rebuilding). It's part of their normal prep process to remove paint, oil and mill scale from I beams and girders before plating. The whole deal only cost $250 including the CA's and crossmember at VA Galvanizing.

You just need to make sure you remove every nut and bolt. I had to leave my upper front CA bolts on since they were welded in. Oscar told me how to remove the zinc from them afterwards so that wasn't even an issue. Make sure you read all of Pete's web site http://www.einstyne.com He's got a lot of timps and info on there on this process and other good stuff, ie. using 78 Camero hoses for the front disc conversion. They fit the 67 Chevelle frame brackets and only cost me $12 each vs $30 ea. for a 67.

For everyone, there's a ton of info on galvanizing on this site:
http://www.galvanizeit.org/

This is a neat idea, now my question.
Has anyone done a 'uni-body' application (i.e. Camaro, Nova)?
P.S. Still looking for the guys on Power Tour that took video out the back of their grey Chevelle between Springfield and Indy...

Thanks Tom. Have you used them? :thumbsup:

Thats what I wanted to do with my 69 Convertible frame. Can you powder Coat the frame after you have it Galvanized? I called this place which is 110 miles from me and is the only place I have found so far that will do a car frame, Also they want me to sign a waiver form for the frame in case it warps because the tank is 850 degrees?? Is this going to be a PROMLEM??? I have read most of the foums on this and so far this hasnt been a problem. Only reason I ask this is only 1 car and 1 frame to work with and being a convertible would be very hard to replace it!!!!


Industrial Galvanizers America, Inc. - Tampa
42' x 6' x 9'
15' x 5' x 6'
9520 East Broadway Avenue
Tampa, FL 33619
P: 813.621.8990
F: 813.622.8950
www.indgalv.com (http://www.indgalv.com/)

1badss396,
I live in Orlando and that's the same company I was looking at. Did they give you a price and a turnaround time? Did they seem like they had any experience doing car frames? I'm looking to get mine done here in the next month or two. I was also wondering about the powdercoating. I have a friend I can ask about that. I'll let you know what I find out. BTW, looks great Herb.

Just talked with the powdercoater and he said no problem as long as you don't get the oil quench at the galvanizers.

I called them and it was 600lbs for $285.00 anyone know how much a frame weighs? Maybe we could take your frame with mine at the same time??? And mabye we could save some $$$$$ whats your phone# and I will call you. Iam in the prossess of removing the body off my SS convertible at the end of this week and then I will remove all the goodies off the frame next so Iam not in a big hurry doing it as of yet. And I also want to get my frame powder coated after I get it Galvanized.

Thanks, Brad

I had no problems with warping. I had my frame aligned on a laser frame machine before I had this done. Everything measures the same now. It's only in that temp for less than 2 mins. The other baths are boiling or just hot below 212'.

BTW - Powder coating bakes the frame at 450" for much longer to melt the powder. Guys have that done all the time.

It's important to tell them to skip the last step (oil quenching) anytime you are going to paint or powder coat. Read the info on the Pete's site, and my previous posts.
I know of no other way to insure the inside of the frame is de-rusted and protected. But I don't know everything. Also, you want to make sure you do any repairs, I.E. body mounts etc. or welding BEFORE you have this done. You can see that I repair the body mount in the "BEFORE" picture, per Pete Lohr's web site instructions.

Good Luck.

I cant find Pete Lohr's web site I had no problems with warping. I had my frame aligned on a laser frame machine before I had this done. Everything measures the same now. It's only in that temp for less than 2 mins. The other baths are boiling or just hot below 212'.

BTW - Powder coating bakes the frame at 450" for much longer to melt the powder. Guys have that done all the time.

It's important to tell them to skip the last step (oil quenching) anytime you are going to paint or powder coat. Read the info on the Pete's site, and my previous posts.
I know of no other way to insure the inside of the frame is de-rusted and protected. But I don't know everything. Also, you want to make sure you do any repairs, I.E. body mounts etc. or welding BEFORE you have this done. You can see that I repair the body mount in the "BEFORE" picture, per Pete Lohr's web site instructions.

Good Luck.

http://home.comcast.net/~petelohr/einstyn1/einstyn-hardtop-02.htm

Here you go!

Also, I used the 2700 series Anchor brand primer (www.AnchorPaint.com (http://www.anchorpaint.com/)) he recommended. It's excellent and only $17 a gal. Takes only about a quart but they only sell it in gallons:) . I washed the frame with white vinegar and a scotch-brite pad (grocery store item $.50) first and rinsed it off. That primer sticks like glue and is self leveling (I brushed mine). You might want to use red. I used light gray and went cross-eyed. I had to have it tinted darker (at a local paint shop) so I could see any spots I missed. :clonk: My finish paint will be Rustoleum Satin Black latex, also as Pete recommended ($8 for one quart). It looks great and it's super easy to apply. I'm brushing mine but you could spray it. Total cost to paint the frame, less than $30.

Are you sure you want to powdercoat it after you have it galvanized? That's kind of a waste of money but none of my business. You don't really gain anything from that over paint.

BTW - two people can pick up and carry a frame, even after it's galvanized. My son and I loaded and unloaded ours by hand. But I wouldn't want to do it all day long . It was all we could handle. ;) I doubt they will do 2 for the price of one. They have to handle each one individually. And you want them to.

/herb

Thanks Tom. Have you used them? :thumbsup:
no but I try to let people know about them
since they are alot closer to my neck of the woods:thumbsup:

1 week is what they said1badss396,
I live in Orlando and that's the same company I was looking at. Did they give you a price and a turnaround time? Did they seem like they had any experience doing car frames? I'm looking to get mine done here in the next month or two. I was also wondering about the powdercoating. I have a friend I can ask about that. I'll let you know what I find out. BTW, looks great Herb.

Just talked with the powdercoater and he said no problem as long as you don't get the oil quench at the galvanizers.

1 week is what they said

Go for it. I'm not sorry I did!! 100% of my frame rust problems solved for $250 and no work on my part. What's not to like.

Herb,
I am taking mine up there next Friday, I'm off work. Just got the frame all stripped and going to boxed the rear CA's. Going to do the radiator supports also and bumper brackets and also Petes creation for the LCA beef up.

Question for you: Did you just drop the frame off there or did you call and let them know you were coming?

Also, will the bushings go in with the galvinizing there, or does it need to be sanded off?

Maybe Pete will chime in.

thanks, Marty

Marty,

At VA Galvanizing you don't need to call. Just drop it off and see "Oscar" the plant mgr. Tell him me and Pete sent you. Tell him you saw the pics of mine which he just did. Since they really do industrial structural steel (beams and girders) they don't get many compliments or thanks from customers about what a good job they do. I think that's one reason they don't mind doing our frames. They like to know what kind of car it goes on. It's a different side of this industrial process for them.


I used Pete's kit to beef the lower front CA's. But you can fab it easily or have it fab'd at a machine shop. I live close enough to Pete that I just went over picked up his kit. Once it's done, you can easily see why it's recommended and why they sometimes crack there without it.

Don't forget the cross member!!! Drill the holes that Pete recommends. You only need a 3/16 in. hole. Don't be surprised if Oscar wants to put one or two other tiny weep holes in the boxed area of the frame. Believe me, that's a good thing. He'll show you a picture of why. They are so small and inconspicuous it was no big deal to me. It insures the zinc can completely cover the insides of the box. You can't even tell they're there afterwards.

Re: bushings
If there is a build-up of material in the bushing holes you might need to sand it out. I bought a $6 set of stones at Advance just in case. They will chuck up in my drill to clean the bushing holes but I haven't needed them. You will also need to chase the threads in any threaded holes with a tap when you get it back. There are only a few, like for the fuel line clamps and the front lower CA bolt holes. But they're easy to chase too.

Remember:
Tell them to skip the last step (oil quenching) if you are going to paint the frame!!!

I was really impressed at how well the vinegar cleaned what appeared to be a perfectly clean frame. Don't skip this step. The latex primer will stick like epoxy if you do this right.

Let us see some pics of how it comes out.

I've always wondered how galvanized would be painted durably. I've seen in the Philippines many times beautiful sign work painted on GI sheet and the paint peeling off in sheets after a short while. You'd think the painters would have figured that out after seeing their artistic effort ruined.

I've always wondered how galvanized would be painted durably. I've seen in the Philippines many times beautiful sign work painted on GI sheet and the paint peeling off in sheets after a short while. You'd think the painters would have figured that out after seeing their artistic effort ruined.

They probably didn't prep it properly and then use latex primer and paint. I questioned the use of latex (acrylic) primer but that's what is used in marine environments for emersion applications. Just look on this site:

http://www.rust007.com/knockoutdatasheet.htm

This stuff is expensive a hell but look at what they recommed for marine applicaitons - latex.

The stuff Pete recommends on his site, Anchor Paint industrial latex primer is great. It really does the job and it's super cheap at $16 a gal.. They shipped me a gallon by UPS. It only takes about a quart to do an entire frame.

Thanks Herb, That was some good info. I did talk to pete before. I bought a roof that he had for my Chevelle. I enjoyed his garage and play yard, that is what I will call it. He is a super guy too.

I will post some updated information when I get it done.

Oh yea. How long did it take at the galvinizers?

Marty

They had it ready in a week. But it depends on their work load. Could be two. Oscar tries to get it done ASAP. Also, they don't have a problem it you want to leave your trailer there in their locked compound until you come back to get it. They have the space and are very accomodating. Took mine down, and picked it up witth a 12 ft. van so I didn't need to do that.


Yeah, Pete does it right. His priorities are correct. Make the garage a Chevelle factory, lift and all. He's been super good to me. As has Tom Parsons (Tom's 68). I picked up a pair of wagon doors for Pete at Tom's during Spring Carlisle. when Tom provided me front brake assys and a posi rear (and scatter shield). In fact, those are his RCA's in those pictures of the frame. This forum and VCEA is a great group of folks and critical resource for me. I can't imagine trying to do this resto without it.

:D

Herb, that looks sweet! :thumbsup: I have been thinking about doing that myself (it's in my 10-year plan anyway), but there are a few details I have yet to figure out. Have you tried to press the bushings in the control arms yet? I was just wondering what the galvanizing does to the press fit, and what you can do before/after galvanizing to make it work. I was also wondering about possible threaded holes, someone told me that you can leave bolts in there, as long as you don't let them protrude through the hole. According to him, you can leave the bolt end flush or a little bit recessed on the "blind" side, and you'll still be able to get the bolts out and you don't have to re-thread the holes. Don't know if this is true, but it sounds like it could work, at least on larger bolts where you can use an impact wrench if they get stuck by the zinc.

It has obviously been done before, so do you know what to do about those details?

It has obviously been done before, so do you know what to do about those details?

Hi Olle,
I'll let you know about the bushings in a week or two. I'm still priming and painting the frame. But I don't anticipate a problem. The bushing holes look like they were electroplated rather than hot dipped. The coating is very uniform, no build up. It's not like it's a heavy coating. More like it's been painted. If necessary, I'll sand them back to the base metal but I don't think I'll need to. A small wheel on a drill will do this in 5 mins. If it's a concer, just don't do the CA's. But the little effort it might take is worth the protection.

As for the threaded holes, you'd be surprised how few there are. Just a few few line clamps and the 2 front LCA bolts. Those can be easily cleaned with a tap. Same with the shock mounting nuts welded into the front LCA's which I also had done. I wouldn't leave bolts in the holes unless you want to have to use a torch to unweld them enough to loosen them, if that's even possible. Besides, there would be the area under the bolt heads that wouldn't get coated and rust out in the future. It's a lot easier just to run a tap in the few holes afterwards.

One problem I had to deal with was that my front upper CA shaft bolts are welded in. They were going to be pretty well coated (and did). When I talked to them at VA Galvanizing, they told me the solution. They deal with these kinds of problems sometimes with structural steel items. The zinc coating melts at 750 degrees. They told me just to use a small propane torch, heat the bolt slightly and use a small wire wheel on a drill to clean the threads. They said they will clean right up before there would be any amount of heat build up since you only need to heat the surface, not the entire bolt.

The only other issue is if you have to do any welding on the frame after it's done. (I did all the patching and body mount pocket repair first) Obviously there's the "welding on galvanized metal health issues, but the area you would need to sand the coating off to do a weld is minor compared to the overall protection of the rest of the frame, especially the insides of the boxed areas. And the fact that every bit of rust is eliminated inside and out.

I went to Pete Lohr's place and looked at his finished frame before I decided to do mine. What I saw impressed me. I'm not kidding when I say that if you read his site, and follow his advice, you'll learn all you need to know about working with this process. He's done 3 of these. He knows this stuff as a hobbyist and professionally.

Now if you are doing a factory perfect, concours restoration, this isn't the solution. It adds metal and isn't what the factory did to these cars (unfortunately). But if you want your frame to outlast you, this is it. Nothing else can touch it for rust elimination and protection.

/herb

Now if you are doing a factory perfect, concours restoration, this isn't the solution.

Well, I think we are on the same page when it comes to that. :) Thanks for the info, I will check Pete's web site again when it's time. I have already looked at most of his stuff, and it's very good reading for anyone who's interested in this process.

BTW, what about heating those bolts, aren't they hardened? Even if 750F is ok, it will be very difficult to control the heat. I guess that it can just as well reach 800-850, or whatever if you're not careful. I think I would try to chase the thread instead, just to be safe. Would be a bummer if they snapped.

Only need to get the surface temp up, not turn the bolt cherry red. Don't think it'll be a problem. Kind of like searing a steak and keeping it blood red in the middle :)

Wish I hadn't said that. Now I'm hungry.

Mmmm... steak! Why did you have to say that, it's still 2 hours before I can eat lunch, and all I have is some stinkin' leftover chili! :angry: :D

... all I have is some stinkin' leftover chili!

I'll bet your co-workers are complaining of the same thing. :D

I've been following this story, and I would like to give you some information on annealing metal. We used to make our own cutting and pressing tools to make cold header dies, the dies we made were heat treated in large salt pots then annealed in ovens, the tools we made were hardened in salt water then annealed at a lot lower temperature, when you anneal or (soften) metal theres just a few degrees between having it to brittle or to soft. If you shine up a hard piece of metal, so its bright looking, put it near a not to hot oven watch it close and it will start to turn a real light brown, lighter then toast, hold it there a little longer and it will start to get darker brown, if you turn it a dark brown then it will be to soft. You take grade 5 and grade 8 bolts and weld on them you just reduced them to a standard bolt as far as strength. I haven't tried this but I know the results if anyone would like to do a test and share it with us. Take a grade 5 or grade 8 bolt lets say 8'' or longer, then just weld on one end of it for just a couple of seconds, let it cool and take a file near the weld then file on the other end see if theres a difference. Now as far as powder coating and galvinizing. I personnaly don't have a clue if putting these frames and parts in ovens have anything to do with the tensile strength of the metal. Probably won't have any effect at all, what about the car builders like indy cars nascar anybody ever hear anything out of these guys theres a big difference in muscle cars and indy cars I know, but theres some pretty sharp individuals on this site that might be able to enhance us on this subject. The pictures on this site of galvinized and power coated frames really look great and as far as structural strength who knows, probably not a problem, and Herb that frame looks outstanding, Rob.

I'll bet your co-workers are complaining of the same thing. :D

Yeah, they are ungrateful morons. They should be happy for the entertainment I'll bring later this afternoon! :D

Rob,


Thanks and those are excellent points. But here's the delima, the bolts were already welded onto the frame by a front end guy I'm sure. Several here have admitted that it was a common practice to do so with these bolts during an alignment procedure. So they were already toast if your point is valid (not challenging, just stating facts). If not, they are grade 8 bolts. There's not easy way to remove them because they were REALLY welded in. You can't drill them out (too hard) or torch them out without heating the area around them cherry red, and in both cases you would probably loose the precision location in the process. So all that's left is removing the zinc and using them. I could probably chase the threads cold but therre a lot of zinc in the fine threads. So I'm going to remove it as best I can. Don't really have a choice. Can't see trashing an entire frame for 4 bolts.

re; NASCAR
I believe most of those frames are titanium. But it is not uncommon on older frames to heat them to straighten them in certain circumstances or to weld on them. In 50+ years, I can't recall having ever heard of problem from this but that doesn't mean anything.

Your points are valid and I too would be interested in some imperical data. Without it, experience is the next best source. Pete's done 3 frames like this with no problems and he works with this structural materals for a living. His take is that it does no harm to the structural strength of the frame. One of my best friend is a structural engineer with 40 years of experience in building bridges and skyscrapers. He states that hot dip galvanizing (HDG) treatment of structural steel beams etc. in a common rust and corrosion preventative treatment requirement that has little to no negative effects on the structural qualities of the material. They also now gavanize re-bar for use in concrete to prevent corrosion. (There was a lot there at that plant being galvanized) I would think it would be far more succeptable to having it's structural characteristics (tensile strength) altered by this process.

So I'm not disputing anybody, I'm just stating that there have been many of these frames done this way and no one has reported any structural problems from it. But there are a lot of frames being continuously deteriorated and weakened by rust and corrosion. I guess the real question is, which causes the greater harm, if any, the HDG treatment or just coating or painting the outside of the frame while rust may continue to eat and weaken the metal from inside the box. I don't have a good answer but I'm going with the HDG treatment. It eliminates all the rust and prevents it inside and out longer than I'll be here ;)

/herb
:thumbsup:

It sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on this Herb. And the point you brought out about the rust inside the frame, a lot of them look pretty on the outside, kind of like a woman, looks can be deceiving, keep up the good work. Rob.

To make a note to the concern of annealing steel...to anneal low-carbon steel you need to heat the material up to about 1600° F and let it soak for about 1/2 hour per inch of material thickness. Then it needs to be cooled very slowly (it can take up to 24 hours for really thick parts) and it needs to be done in a relatively oxygen free environment to prevent the oxidation of the outside layers. Higher strength steels need to be annealed to about 1400° F.

So...you aren't really annealing steel when you galvanize your frame, nor are you annealing steel when you weld on it. Yes, there can be some local softening, but the rate of cooling is too fast. What you are really doing, by letting it air cool, is normalizing the steel. This gives the steel an even grain structure which is good for machinability. However...normalizing also requires that you get the steel hot like annealing. Also, to make a note about race-car spaceframes...if you read the books some will tell you that you need to stress-relieve the welds after you weld them. Indy-car and the likes will do this, but most spaceframes are built and welded and never are stress-relieved...and they perform just fine.

Thanks for the input, it seems you know a lot about metals, what will happen to that grade 8 bolt once you weld on it, is it still a grade 8 strength wise or is its strength reduced. Thanks Rob.

I just did a little research on the net. One so called expert says, If you weld on a grade 8 bolt it will likely become more brittle, also grade 8 fasteners don't weld very easily, amid what looks like a good weld may have very little penetration. Grade 8 is a higher carbon steel an is less ductile and will break under certain conditions, for instance grade 8 don't hold up as well as grade 5 in a alternator bracket in a repeatedly loaded and unloaded condition, I also looked up annealing. It says its a softeneing process.

Now I've had enough of this trying to reinvent the wheel, did I learn anything, yes I think so, and thats kind of like thats what this site we have is all about.

Now as for Herb and his galvanized frame. Its people like Herb that try different approaches to these cars we work on that a lot of us benefit from, and anytime somebody comes up with something different theres some sceptics (like myself), and to a certain degree this can be a good thing to.

When you are welding on a grade 8 fastener (generally made from a 4037 or 4042 grade material) it is quenched and tempered. The quenching is a rapid cooling in either water or oil. The rapid cooling prevents the carbon in the steel from migrating away from a type of grain structure that is called Austenite (it is just a type of structure of the atoms that make up the steel). This forms a grain structure in the steel that is called Martensite. Martensite is a very strong grain structure because it has extra carbon in it. However, carbon...while it is strong is very brittle (meaning that it doesn't warn you when it breaks, and when it breaks it just shatters). This Martensite is what makes high-strength steels. The tempering of the steel then is heating the Martensite steel back up to a temperature that allows some reforming of the grain structure that allows some of the grains to change to a structure called Pearlitic. This involves then cooling the steel in air. Pearlitic grains are tough and ductile. This means that they can bend and stretch without breaking. This balance of Pearlitic and Martensite is what determines to an extent what the properties of the steel are. This involves heating the steel to somewhere between 300 and 1200° F.

With all of that said when you weld a grade 8 fastener, depending on what method you use, the heat that is going into the entire fastener is not going to be 1300° F. For a general chart you can use this:

Color Temperature (°F)
"Blood" Red 1050
"Dark Cherry" Red 1075
"Medium Cherry" Red 1250
"Cherry" Red 1375
Bright Red 1550

Tempering steel is where the straw color come into play. Straw color is around 445° F. Pale Blue is around 610° F

As you can see...the area around the weld does get hot enough to affect the strength of the bolt. The cooling in air is like tempering the weld area, so the weld area and head of the bolt should see some increase in toughness and ductility (this is probably where the notice of a softer metal comes in). This does reduce the overall tensile strength of the bolt...but by how much? The threads of the bolt shouldn't be affected, but if you welded with an Acetelyene torch you would put more heat to the entire bolt. My recommendation is that a MIG welded bolt really shouldn't be affected that much. If you are concerned about the weld strength then I would say quench it with water and then heat it back up to a straw color to get back some of that toughness. Higher tempering temperatures results in optimum toughness while lower temperatures (up to about 500) result in stress relieving with only a slight decrease in the hardness of the steel.

Ultimately the strength is reduced some, but only in local areas. The quenching and tempering should bring you back to somewhere around the original Grade 8 strength, but I really can't tell you the exact numbers.

Hope I interested some and didn't completely bore others! :D

Never ceases to amaze me the amount of knowledge and information one can gain from this site. Thanks for the info and time spent writing it up.


What I've learned is that the bolts that were welded in by tacking the head to the frame with a stick welder are probably just fine. And, waiving a torch over the suface of the threads to loosen the zinc won't hurt them either. That's probably why the guys a the galvanizing plant do it without a problem. I mean, think about it, if cleaning the threads with a torch and wire wheel altered the structural properties of the material dramatically, they couldn't/wouldn't do it.
/herb

I mean, think about it, if cleaning the threads with a torch and wire wheel altered the structural properties of the material dramatically, they couldn't/wouldn't do it.


I know that some people would, just because they simply don't know that heat can change the material properties. Just like some people electroplate high tensile bolts because they don't know better. You have done your homework so you're fine, but I would never, ever trust just one guy who tells me that "we have always done it that way".

Wouldn't ever. However, there are practices that are not allowed on structural steel components and some that are. This one is.

BTW - new pics in another string.

/h :thumbsup:

I had no problems with warping. I had my frame aligned on a laser frame machine before I had this done...

Good Luck.

Herb, where does one go to get a frame aligned on a laser frame machine? How much does that cost?

As always, many thanks for your support and guidance.

My friend's body shop uses laser frame machines. I don't know what the going rate is.

Looking for a company that will galvanize my 72 monte carlo frame in the dallas texas area. I've contacted several companies and they all say they don't want to do it because it will warp the frame. can anyone help me.
House

Looking for a company that will galvanize my 72 monte carlo frame in the dallas texas area. I've contacted several companies and they all say they don't want to do it because it will warp the frame. can anyone help me.
House
They all say that and we all discussed that issue on this site a few times and no problems, even the place that I had mine done at was doing all the Range Rover frames when they came into the country and they were a lot thinner metal than my 69 convertible frame was. They dont leave the frame in the tank long enough for it to warp.

Has http://www.einstyne.com (http://www.einstyne.com/) moved or is it gone for good? I just learned about Hot Dip Galvanizing, and I am seriously concidering it for a frame off restoration of a 1951 Merc pickup. I'd love to check out this site for more info if it's still around.

Thanks Tom, yeah those lower RCA's came out perfect.

John 67SS,

You might want to do a search on "gavanizing" on this forum too.

VA Galvanizing (http://www.vagalvanizing.com/) about 2 miles west of I95 off exit 89 in Ashland, just north of Richmond. All you do is take your frame there and drop it off. They're used to seeing them now. Talk to Oscar, the plant manager. Tell them Pete or Herb sent you. He'll take good care of you. BTW, paint, grease, oil and undercoating are no problem for them. They boil the entire frame in alkly to remove it (same stuff that is used to boil an engine block prior to rebuilding). It's part of their normal prep process to remove paint, oil and mill scale from I beams and girders before plating. The whole deal only cost $250 including the CA's and crossmember at VA Galvanizing.

You just need to make sure you remove every nut and bolt. I had to leave my upper front CA bolts on since they were welded in. Oscar told me how to remove the zinc from them afterwards so that wasn't even an issue. Make sure you read all of Pete's web site http://www.einstyne.com He's got a lot of timps and info on there on this process and other good stuff, ie. using 78 Camero hoses for the front disc conversion. They fit the 67 Chevelle frame brackets and only cost me $12 each vs $30 ea. for a 67.

For everyone, there's a ton of info on galvanizing on this site:
http://www.galvanizeit.org/

Here is a better link
http://einstyn.com/index.htm

I cant speak for other parts of the country but up here in the Northeast, they now do something called color galvanizing and they can do it in any color! How cool is that!

A lot of good info

I think this one gets the record for the oldest resurrected thread.

Color Galvanizing? wow, that's interesting.

Only one of the links given is still up:

www.galvanizeit.org (http://www.galvanizeit.org)



--- :(

Lol this is an old thread.Wish I knew about this before I had my frame powder coated 8 years ago.

we don;t have galvanizers in Memphis, so I'm SOL :-(

Just to keep the resurrection going.
We just picked this frame up Friday.
Cost $550.00 now.
5 years ago I had mine done for $150.00.
It was done in Canton, Ohio
david

can you powder coat over the galvanizing

Yes.
I had my frame powder coated.
Had the PC shop lightly shot blast the galvanizing so that the powder coat would stick.
david

I had my frame galvanized at Corbec (http://www.corbecgalv.com/en/index.php) in Montreal (they also have a plant in Quebec city), 2 years ago. Nice technical info on their website.

35688

But why stop at the frame?

35689

Cost me about 450 $CAN + sandblast.

I had my frame galvanized at Corbec (http://www.corbecgalv.com/en/index.php) in Montreal (they also have a plant in Quebec city), 2 years ago. Nice technical info on their website.

35688

But why stop at the frame?

35689

Cost me about 450 $CAN + sandblast.

How has this held up to rust in the last 2 years? Looks very cool!

How has this held up to rust in the last 2 years? Looks very cool!

Rust? What's that? :D

How has this held up to rust in the last 2 years? Looks very cool!
I had mine done back in 2006 no rust no problems still looks like new :D

Thanks guys!

i just talked to a local galvanizer and he recommended having the frame sandblasted before hand to reduce the time it needs for the acid. he mentioned that longer durations in the acid could weaken the metal.

having a boxed frame though makes it hard to have the inside of the rails sandblasted and cleaned.

anything to be concerned about with this?!

Picture Link No Worky

This thread is from 2005. That's why.

Do guys still paint Latex over the galvanizing? For some reason I remember reading that somewhere.

I primed with anchor marine primer and sprayed black rustoleum over that.