I'm 17, bought my first chevelle 69 (cough 4dr) Malibu back in June. I'm 17 and insurance wasn't bad it was actually less than my first car (Nissan Rice Burner). Well as of tomorrow Nov 1st I might have to reconsider my use of a chevelle for a while. Nov 1st I go to court for my second ticket this ticket is far worse, Speed Racing. Though I'm pleading not-guilty, I'm still preparing for the worse, my insurance will sky rocket. I think the magical age is 25 when most insurance agencies drop rates? Well that to long of time for me to wait when I'm in highschool and working 2 days a week. After highschool I join the Marines and will probably move to Florida where I will be stationed. I hope that insurance companies will be giving me a break for the Marines and over 18. But as of right now I don't know what to do, when my new premium comes in 3 months and gas keeps going up here in Portland, or. Working 2 days a week, i don't know if i can handle it. What do you guys think, how did you others get by? Do i have to say goodbye to my Boo?

Wes Criswell,
Portland Or.
Other Portlandians, drop me a line we'll talk cars. merkuri420@yahoo.com

Your insurance will no doubt go up, but it may not be as bad as you think. A friend of mine who's into german cars had numerous speeding tickets on his record (bad ones too, 79 in a 55, 50 in a 30, etc)and then managed to get a ticket for racing. When he got nailed for racing, the cop got him on tickets for no seatbelt, a cracked windshield, and running a red light. The fool didn't even lose his liscense. He somehow managed to pay for insurance working odd jobs here and there. Unfortunately, about a month ago, he was playing with his beamer in the rain and side-swipped (and totalled) my co-worker's Porsche. After this, the insurance company had enough and they cancelled his policy.

I don't know about where you live, but where I'm at, the traffic court is a joke. I got pulled over for 62 in a 30 in my snail burner (that would be the french-made POS eagle premier i drove while i restored my 71 cutlass) and they knocked it down to 39 in a 30. The $50 fine really taught me a lesson too....

Just go there and kiss the judge's ass, maybe he'll hook you up with a lesser infraction.

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Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Gold Member #101
E-mail: havoc@chevelles.com
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441

damn, i hate when i get double posts. i blame it on my girlfriend's laptop....

[This message has been edited by Havoc (edited 11-01-99).]

Wes, Did you at least win? Maybe the cop won't show up and you'll get off with just court costs. From what I hear on the street racing sites, some places impound your car for Drag Racing on the street. Here its a minimum $1000 fine if the cop writes you up for Dragin. I think they also take your license for a year. A big time bummer.

Hope you come out ahead. and remember, next time take it to the track, or at least keep it off of busy street (Don't need no innocent people hurt) and watch out for the law



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Richard Dorrough
Tulsa, Ok
'68 Chevelle (CHVLLE)
'70 Nomad (plate ideas?)
ACES # 789

malibu69,
The same thing happened to me when I was 16.(1975)ha ha! I got 3 "wreckless driving" tickets within 1 year.Here in Indiana they have a ponit system.Every infraction = a set amount of points removed from liscense status. Anyway I learned that that 3rd ticket was going to cost me my license,so I hired the town cutthroat attorney to help me out.He pleaded me not guilty and I never heard about it again! Cost me $175.
I ended up selling my first car (66 malibu) because I couldnt afford any more trouble with the law.I knew if I kept driving it would only be a matter of time till it happened again.Seemed like once the cops recognised my car they watched me like a hawk.I sold the car for than I paid because of all the ugrades I had made.Bought a CAPRICE to drive after that.This was an expensive lesson to learn,but the only way to learn for a blockhead like me!
I worked on a farm after school to pay my expenses.

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Tony Leep
Scottsburg,Indiana
64SS Grocery Getter
ICQ 34163913

OK same deal as ratchet sort of. Happened in 1977. Cops were on me like flys on dung after the "incident". Just friendly pull overs - no lights. Anyway I kept my ride. Worked two jobs to afford everything. Eventually the ins went down, but not until after I was in college and married ( don;t ask - yet another bad "incident").

I say chill out and see what happens. Don't ever think or say the words " BIG BLOCK" until you've learned to be more covert about your activities. You won't need the car for your first few months in the jarines. And after that it depends where you're billeted. Florida is a guarantee??

It won;t matter if you're driving a 69 chevy or a 84 Ranger P/U, your ins will still be high. So why would you want to get rid of the Chevy? You might consider running it without collision, which is a risk, but it keeps the premiums down.

See what happens first before you react. And hey you futurte jarhead, KEEP IT LEGAL!

I'll try to do this without sounding like a lecture but it isn't what is under the hood that matters but what is between your ears. You can't really blame the ins co. if you get dinged for racing. It is hardly an inadvertant infraction.

Whatever you do, keep the ride if you can. Take your lumps like an honorable soon-to-be Marine and look for other legal methods to satisfy your need for speed.

Just remember, keep the rubber side down!

Lots-o-luck

Bob

I got a speeding ticket when I was 17, I met the State Trooper while topping a hill running 107, locked it down, and slid past him at 86.He had to deal with several cars, and couldn't get turned around , so I take off,run out the road a ways, turn on a small country road, and backtrack back towards him.He would never think of that, or would he.He caught me, just as I was pulling out in the road, 2 miles before he initially saw me.He thought it was kinda smart, and liked it.He scolded me, gave me a ticket for 78 in a 55, and that's it, no attempting to flee, no reckless driving.He said it kinda reminded him of the Dukes Of Hazzard.I paid the fine,$72, but the bad part was the 10,000 word essay the judge made me write about the dangers of driving on today's roadways.

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' 72 Malibu project ACES # 1282 Team Member # 427
' 70 C-10 Pickup

Get an attorney!
6 months after I got my license, I was about to lose my license for too many tickets. I got an attorney and paid him a monthly amount for 5 years. Every ticket I got was taken care of. Insurance company never heard about them. It is cheaper to pay an attorney than the insurance company. The cheapest route would be to get crazy when nobody is around.
Just my 2 cents!

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When I read this thread I could just scream.

As someone who lost two innocent friends as the result of an encounter with a pair of "Speed Racers" I think you should be walking till the Marines teach you some responsibility. If you were indeed racing on the street I think you should be walking for a L-O-N-G time. Even if this is a first offense.

This is serious stuff not Dukes of Hazzard cute or something where you get a lawyer to squash the tickets. Take your two best friends or a brothe or a sisterr if you have one and just remove them from your life in one quick decisive accident. Visualize that if your mind is capable.

For my money you can think about a Big Block while you walk everywhere you need to go.

Wow, Oman, i really am sorry for your loss, but chill out a little. Geeze, everybody makes mistakes and it will happen forever, some people learn the REALLY hard way, and some people just learn the hard way. I agree that malibu69 deserves to get a ticket if he were racing. However, losing his liscense over one racing incident? I hardly think that's fair. I also agree that hiring a lawyer to get rid of your tickets is immoral but hey, if it can be done, people will do it.

BTW, you wanna know what you should do malibu? I'll tell you, drive like an old granny and swallow your pride when some rice rocket pulls up beside you.

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Chris Dagenais
Saskatchewan
'71 Malibu with a home built 454!
member.xoom.com/Gandalf80/ (http://member.xoom.com/Gandalf80/)

What you don't see is that one racing incident that results in a death (a TOTALLY AVOIDABLE death) is TOTALLY IRREVERABLE. There is no way back from an incident like that: it is done and over FOREVER, no added insurance premium for awhile, no 6 month suspension no nothin just a long cold sleep for the victim.

Read the thread again....there is a cavalier "This is cool" "Dukes of Hazzard" ( That is the most infuriating one) , " I got away with it " kind of flavor. If that 17 year old and the others who wrote in to this ever are unfortunate to kill some one they will live with that knowledge forever. The injustice is that they will however live. The sad part is that the dead are just that they are DEAD. JUST PLAIN DEAD

Keep the damn racin off the street and on the track where it belongs. One gutsy, decisive Judge should pull that "Speed Racers" paperwork if he is guilty of JUST ONE STREE RACING incident, tear it up in front of 'em and make em eat it.

Grow Up this needs to stop.

Forgive me for my "Cavalier" attitude, Let me rephrase it", I got a ticket, and had to pay a fine. Excuse me,my incident occured almost 15 years ago on a newly opened section of 575/515, you should know where that is! There was no traffic, only a lone G.S.P officer, wrong place, wrong time.If you remember, they would only open up one side at a time, so here I went.As for the "Dukes of Hazzard "comment, call the G.S.P for that one, the officer said it, I didn't.E-mail me personally , and I'll tell you the officer's name, or better yet, give me a call,I'm in the toll free calling zone.My number is posted in the parts for sale section.It won't do any good though, he retired 6 years ago!I don't indulge in or promote street racing, If anyone wanted to go race me, we would go to any of the 4 dragstrips around here, line 'em up, and go! Trophy Class costs $10.He is asking for advise about the future outcome of his speeding ticket,and most of the posts would be just like my example above if we didn't include a description!A loss of life is the most tragic thing anyone can go through, and I'm sorry for your friends.I've had friends that were killed in the same manner, but lighten up.I'm not condoning street racing, I'm just giving my experiences.My insurance didn't go up, but I think my parents going to school with the judge helped out.I haven't had a ticket since then, that was in '85.The roads and laws have changed drastically since that time.I have friends that have been on both ends, one killed 2 , spent 7 years in Jackson, he is a Felon forever,and regrets it every day.I had one killed between Chastain and Bells Ferry, on their way home from Six Flags, the lady went home, parked the car in the basement, so her husband wouldn't see it.She was drunk,and her reasoning was, they had just had the car painted, and her husband would see the scratched places and be mad.He turned her in, she is in jail now, and will be for another 3 years .I suggest you don't read any more of my bench racing stories if you don't want to see some "terrible" things,or maybe Gene Chas's stories, we both had some wild times.I know Dale, I should have e-mailed them directly!Don't race!

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' 72 Malibu project ACES # 1282 Team Member # 427
' 70 C-10 Pickup


[This message has been edited by Doug Garland (edited 11-02-99).]

I don't know about you guys, but I've never, ever, and I mean ever seen a wreck during a drag race. I have however, seen about 15 wrecks occur due to incompetent drivers over the years. Inability to merge, and judge proper breaking distances etc. The only real street drag racing that happens in my area nowadays are the Honda racers, and they take it out to remote industrial parks. And still the media paints these guys as maniacs jeopardizing the publics welfare. I think a lot more lives would be saved if the state enforced its driving test policies to adequately ensure that people who receive licenses are competent drivers. Instead of the joke of the system that we have in place now. Its easier for the policy makers to blame a higher profiled segment of the society, then what it is for a larger but yet more mainstream section.

Wes,
Take your lumps, be polite and see what happens. You won't need your car for 3 months of boot camp and maybe longer. A lot of school commands don't let the newbies drive until after they graduate (this increases the chance of living to graduate). Then you will have to take a Driver's improvement course at your first real command. This may help when it comes time for insurance again.
kevin d

been driving about 7 months, have to drive with someone who has had there license for more than 3 years for a time of 8 to 12 months blah blah blah i am going in january to the drive alone license but anyways been pulled over once by a pissed off cop who was arguing with me that i was cutting cars off on a street i wasn't even on after i said i have prove i wasn't there, my dad also said so, then she was really mad cuz she was following a truck and lost him stupid cop, doesn't take much driving skill to keep up to a truck in rush hour.. I was given a ticked for cracked windsheild, 72 hour deal to fix it never got to insurance. but i have been told that is ever you get a ticket for speeding or such call a lawyer that only works with trafic things, here in Ont canada points. They are supposd to be great try finding something like that around you. Good Luck. everyone f's up one time in there driving life. Let everyone know whatends up happening
sorry sooo long

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OWNER OF 66 CHEVELLE MALIBU
Check out page dedicated to resto of my chevelle. still being made.
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/9801/ (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/9801/)
Team Chevelle # 424
Canadian Classics Chevelles and Beaumonts #393
Fav Quote: Second place is the first loser...

Speed racing? I guess the name has changed a little, here in Maryland the term is "engaged in a contest of speed". Got one of those before you were born, 135 mph on a public street.

Dumbest thing I ever did and I paid the price. I suggest you get a lawyer and face the music. One other thing, confine your racing to an approved facility were the only person you put at risk is yourself.

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Wally
Gold #67
67 Malibu "Small Block"
90 SS454
71 Malibu "Small Block"
93 torch red vette

This site sure has a bunch of preachers.Just be sure you practise what you preach.Some times hard to resist a challenge...FRED

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Ditto

Since when is common sense preaching. How much control do you think you have over a 3500 lb 32 year old car. The difference in the brake systems then and now and the suspension makes the cars damn near Jurasic like.

Yep I bet you are one of those guys who thinks the are in total command an that no dumb ass will pull out from a side road when you are showing your ass.

How about this, if I was the cop and caught one of you, your ass would be under the jail, not in it.

How's that for preaching!

BMA!!!!!

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Wally
Gold #67
67 Malibu "Small Block"
90 SS454
71 Malibu "Small Block"
93 torch red vette

Cali-guy, I have seen a wreck during a drag race.A rail hit a deer about 6 months ago at Brainerd Dragway in Chattanooga.Wasn't pretty.Does Speed racer have Chim Chim with him all the time while he is racing, or just while they are making the cartoons?And he always misses those wrecks in front of him by punching a button on the steering wheel!Sorry again Guys! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif
Signed: The Duke Boys http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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' 72 Malibu project ACES # 1282 Team Member # 427
' 70 C-10 Pickup


[This message has been edited by Doug Garland (edited 11-01-99).]

Ok guys, I think some tempers are getting out of control.

I think what Fred meant was that there are a lot of people in here that are saying that street racing is such a bad thing. And that a lot of those people probably do it themselves. Which may be true, maybe not. Nothing to get all upset about.

Now let's all play nice boys.


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Chris Dagenais
Saskatchewan
'71 Malibu with a home built 454!
member.xoom.com/Gandalf80/ (http://member.xoom.com/Gandalf80/)

Geez man, you gotta chill out. How did all this start anyway.

Someone wanted some advise about what the results of his speeding ticket would be, one of those"I can see the future" , type of questions.I , along with others posted replies about our experiences, and told some stories about what we did.Someone took exception, that person to remain nameless, and got on their "High Horse",and used our forum to berate our comments.They didn't like a few statements the Georgia State Trooper said, which I posted, and went off.So, it's my fault http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif ,I guess, or atleast that's their line of thinking!

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' 72 Malibu project ACES # 1282 Team Member # 427
' 70 C-10 Pickup


[This message has been edited by Doug Garland (edited 11-02-99).]

interesting thread...

the ironic part is that im sitting at my computer right now, at 6:30 AM tuesday morning and I have to be at court in 1 hour for my "speed contest" ticket..

what will happen? wtf knows!! now i sort of wish I had gotten a lawyer but its too late for that now.. I guess I'll go kiss butt like someone said and pay the consequences.

Ill let you all know what happened in a couple hours.. wish me luck.

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Mike Reeh
Gold #34
San Diego, CA

Hey it could be like one of my friends. He gets the ticket for street racing, goes to the track instaed and a security guard runs into his car up there http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif.

Most accidents, against what insurance seems to think, are caused by women and there damn Expaditions. Now for the few ladys on here don't jump on me about this, my girlfriend can contest to this too. Infact she was the one who brought it up the otherday when she almost rerended a car cause she was driving like an idiot.

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JT
71 SS Vortec 355
www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports (http://www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports)

Thanks JT, they can vent their anger at you now.Good luck Mike, maybe the cop won't show up!

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' 72 Malibu project ACES # 1282 Team Member # 427
' 70 C-10 Pickup

Oman, you're entirely correct and we all should be aware of the dangers. What is speed racing anyway? Kids going 130 on the LA freeway? Or me and my 509 Camaro buddy seeing who hooks up best on a desolate country road where only the cows are our audience? The point is our activites should be smart and not put others at risk. Easy to say, difficult in execution since adrenaline/egos get in the way. But, for me, I'll keep entertaining the cows because thats why I built a 500Hp L88 Chevelle anyway. But it certainly takes a high degree of responsibility. And I NEVER unleash the rat in residential areas. NEVER. And I NEVER do it for a crowd. My ego is secure enough so that I don't need that stuff. Well maybe next year at the strip though!

As an add on, I will say that I see kids do some dumb effin things. A few years ago my uncle got out of his car walked up to the car in front at a light. The kid just cut him off.The kid opened his window. Guess he didn't knbow about the Chas temper. WHAM! broken nose. Would've made DZ proud I'm sure. Kid deserved it. Hot dogging kills.

The only street race I've ever gotten into with the '67 so far was with a 5.0. At a light leading to a four lane divided highway through an industrial section. No houses. No people. The casuality for my easy win: a bent push rod. Would do it again tomorrow.

Mike, we're all ears. What was your infraction and how did it go.



[This message has been edited by Gene Chas (edited 11-02-99).]

Well I sure stired up a Hornet's nest didn't I.

Somebody wrote "Some people learn the hard way some learn the Really hard way. Gotta say I think what pushed me over the top was the inference that this stuff has happened to people over and over again. The "Lawyer on retainer". The I am immortal It cannot happen to me mentality is just to prevalent.

Once incident and appropriate penalty would be enough if the penalty is stiff enough is what I wanted to say. Who said suspension after one incident is not fair? Suspension after one of these incidents should be so long that the "Speed Racer" can't remember how to drive a car when he finally gets his "Right" to drive back.

Once somebody pulls out in front of the "Speed Racer" and a T-Bone happens there is no more talking, there is only the wreckage to clean up.

Two guys I grew up with were taken out by one of those "Black Sheep" types that every small town seems to have. Mr Black Sheep had been in and outta "mechanized" trouble since forever. His old man was a cop and I gotta believe that helped him skate by. If somebody lowered the boom big time two people would be alive today.

I am sorry about misreadin the "Dukes" comment. Dumb thing for the cop to say. My appologies to the respondent for assigning that line to him.

Wally responded that he had a 135 mile per hour "Dumbest or most stupid thing he ever did" event. Seems he paid a price and learned his lesson I hope that lesson did not include any injuries.

Puttin 500 HP in a Jurasic ( I loved that Wally) handling / stopping car and letting somebody with a "Lawyer on retainer" mentality out to street race is a prescription for disaster.

I meant no offense to anyone. Read the pattern that happened in my home town: repeated escalating offenses, evading paying any real penalty because of connections and finally an absolute catastrophy.

I still gotta say HAMMER THE FIRST STREET RACING OFFENSE. Hammer this first offense REALLY hard and it might be that it won't happen again. Increased insurance rates, six month suspension or whatever just is not appropriate.

Sorry to anyone I pissed off or misread.

Not to make light of your dilemma but I wanna know what Police officer gave you a ticket for 'speed racing' in a four door. :P
On a more serious note, now most insurance companies dont go by the age but by the amount of time you've been driving and your driving record.

well heres what happened...

I think the judge wanted to just get people in and out of the courtroom... he was a nice, no-nonsense guy... there was a case of Lopez vs. the people that was settled some time ago which basically was $200 fine and 3 years probation.. the judge offered me that "deal" so I took it and ran.. the 3 years probation is gonna be sort of tough but $200? thats chump change compared to what it could have been..

AND.. AND AND its not an infraction!! its a freakin misdemeanor in california! can you beleive that? you can actually go to jail for that. wild.

anyways on top of that "punishment" if you wanna call it that, my car was supposed to be impounded for 30 days which could really bring your cash flow to a screeching halt. I got it out in 2 weeks, on more or less a technicality and it cost me $415... someone put it best when they called impound yards "legalized rape"

fwiw, my ticket read 70mph in a 65 zone.. and it was in a 4 lane, divided by a median, deserted straightaway at 2am with no side streets for traffic to pull out from...



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Mike Reeh
Gold #34
San Diego, CA

damn double posts!@#

[This message has been edited by mike reeh (edited 11-02-99).]

the 3 years probation that like a call the dude one a week or whatever? or something like you can't drive the car after 10 pm at night?

What a charge, 200 bucks. Man that is what ya call luck. congrats u screwed the system as i call it. more people that do it the better. they scam you out of tons of money 4 taxes so when you get off that easy u won. my 9.20 cents

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OWNER OF 66 CHEVELLE MALIBU
Check out page dedicated to resto of my chevelle. still being made.
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/9801/ (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/9801/)
Team Chevelle # 424
Canadian Classics Chevelles and Beaumonts #393
Fav Quote: Second place is the first loser...

PROBATION! For doing 70 in a 65? Mike you didnt tell us about the ounce of loco under the floor mat! What????? Aw christ and I thought I liked SD. That seems draconian to me, but I guess I must sound like a lawless screwball. Be responsible kids!

Wes,
Get down to the local defensive driving school and take the class BEFORE the judge orders you to do it. Most insurance companies will give you a discount for taking this course EXCEPT when it follows a court order. PS cow versus chevelle ....cow wins every time...car gets smashed...horse vs chevelle...horse goes over hood into windshield....driver loses big time...deer same as cow....elk same as horse....can you tell i grew up in Idaho during the muscle car era.... http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Hope that Misdemeanor doesn't screw you up going into the Marines...

probation just means that I have to keep a real clean record... it excludes "minor traffic violations" whatever that entails.

3 years is a long time but what can a guy do? Guess Ill just take it.

and, im not going into the marines.. that was someone else.

shouldnt be too hard to keep the record clean. the camino is for sale and my daily driver is a 77 pickup, so no more street racing for me.. ive wooped enough street butt for a few years... 3 years at least http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

over and out.

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Mike Reeh
Gold #34
San Diego, CA

Hey cali-guy, can a criminal record keep you out of the marines? Cause if so, that's some bull**** if i've ever seen it. The marines is exactly what young criminals need, someone whoopin their ass and teaching them some discipline and respect. In fact, all kids with criminal records should be forced into the services. I'd rather them running around with guns on some army base instead of down my block.

I know this is WAY off topic, but it was just something that popped into my head...

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Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Gold Member #101
E-mail: havoc@chevelles.com
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441

My friends that were caught racing, one got off with 4 points and a $50 fine the other no points $100 fine. The first is the one who got his car hit at the track, when he finnaly lost his licence after he had some 20 points against him. Real funny part is he starts driving nice (before loosing his license) and gets the car totaled be a guy who was drunk or on drugs or something. The guy ran and the people who owned the car claim the don't know who he was. Then they threaten to sue my friend for careless driving.

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JT
71 SS Vortec 355
www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports (http://www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports)



[This message has been edited by L6571SS (edited 11-03-99).]

JT, you are so right! Get those women that drive mini vans full of kids off of the street, especially if they have a cell phone to boot!!! I also want to see the laws toughen up on elderly drivers that should not be on the road. I am not sexist or discrimminatory against the elderly, but as people grow old, they start to loose their site and reaction time. I have seen so many accidents involving these type of drivers and I have also been in one that was minor, but so close to being a disaster. I was stopped at a yield sign waiting to enter a busy street when all of the sudden my head snapped back and then I heard screaming tires! I looked to my left and there was a 1 ton dodge pickup about 3 feet from my door! Kind of dazed, I got out of the car and started searching for answers. Still in the yield lane was a middle aged woman in a jeep cherokee still talking on her F***ing cell phone! I could have buried her 6 feet deep right on the spot! She got out of the jeep cherokee and the first thing she did was look at her front end and guess what she said? "My husband is going to kill me, we just bought this" Can you believe that? She didn't even ask my condition! All I said was, "Why don't you use that phone to call the police!" I remained calm during the whole incident, and I watched in disgust as the officer wrote the lady a measly $20 ticket! Usually these type of drivers are not even in the collision, they just cause them.

I agree that street racing is dangerous and by no means do I support it, but I will not preach to people about it because I have been a guilty party myself. We all need preachers, but we also need someone to point out the real problems on the road so we can stop ignoring that they exist. the h*ll with the term discrimination, lets face the facts... its the plain hard TRUTH! I bet if statistics were gathered on the chances of being killed in an accident caused by street racing or by accidents caused by the drivers mentioned above, it would be 1000 to 1!

A solution to the street racing problem is to support drag strips for kids and everyone that enjoys racing their machines! After all, the majority of us love to feel the torque of our big blocks or whatever you are running and if we have no where to do it, it will eventually happen on the street. Kind of like locking a wild animal up in a cage.

People need to do less preaching and more DOING!

After going through this thread I can say it has calmed my desire to pick up a stoplight challenge. Now that the Velle is runnin' okay I've been wanting to ring it out, but I'm sure I can wait until the track opens next spring. Ain't gonna hurt nobody for a few seconds of fun.

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Tom H.
Member #259
Indianapolis,IN www.iquest.net/~bharold/chevelle/ (http://www.iquest.net/~bharold/chevelle/)

You say that you are planning to plead "Not Guilty." Don't plead not guilty unless you are truly not guilty. If you were racing, be a man and take the punishment you deserve. I'm really tired of people who know they are guilty of something, but think they have the right to go to court and lie just to save their butt. What ever happened to honesty? I'm tired of my tax dollars going to pay for court costs, etc., just because someone thinks it's okay to further clog up the legal system so save a couple of their own dollars.

If you truly didn't street race, then defend yourself with a Not Guilty plea. However, my bet is that if you received a ticket for such an act, you probably did it. Not trying to prejudege you here, but just using common sense. I had a Chevelle that looked very fast, but I never got one racing ticket. Why? Because I never street raced. Most people who get these tickets deserve them. Are you the exception? Learn to respect the laws of the street or be prepared to pay the price.

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Robert

www.classiccarlot.com (http://www.classiccarlot.com) (15% discount for my fellow Chevelle owners!)

rstoltz, this is America. You can rob a bank, be caught on camera, and still plead not guilty and get off. I pled not guilty to my speeding ticket this summer, got it knocked down from 62 MPH to 39MPH. You can be a man all you want, but when it comes down to it, I'd rather be wearing a pink dress and high heels behind the wheel of my SS than riding a bike to work.

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Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Gold Member #101
E-mail: havoc@chevelles.com
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441

I'll take the dress too.

Havoc - Is that what living in America is all about to you? Doing something wrong, then lying to get out of it? Just because you CAN lie and get away with it doesn't mean that you SHOULD. What about honesty and integrity, man?

I get really nervous when I hear a "lie to get ahead in life" attitude coming from my fellow Chevelle owners. Does that philosophy/lifestyle spill over when selling a beloved Chevelle? Does 137K miles really mean 237K? Does rust-free mean bondo-filled, etc? Sure hope not. This forum makes me wonder sometimes though.
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Robert

www.classiccarlot.com (http://www.classiccarlot.com) (15% discount for my fellow Chevelle owners!)


[This message has been edited by rstoltz (edited 11-04-99).]

rstoltz, I totally agree with you on a moral level. People should take full responsiblity for their actions. But we know they don't. So why should I put my ass on the line while the next guy will just take the easy way out? I'm not trying to go out like some valiant warrior, I'm trying to save my parents from having their insurance skyrocket, and I'm trying to save myself from blowing a week's salary on a fine.

Living in America, in fact, life in general for me, means trying to beat the system. If it means lying to keep myself out of trouble, then so be it. If anyone here is willing to pay my insurance, fines, and incur any jail sentences I may receive, please e-mail me at havoc@chevelles.com and I will gladly tell the truth about any wrongdoings I may commit. If given the choice between a cellmate named "Bubba" and a roommate named "Cristine," I'd opt for the latter and stay where I am. The only time I wouldn't plead "not guilty" is if I plead insanity.

Also, I wouldn't say that I am "lying to get ahead." It's more like I'd lie not to fall behind.
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Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Gold Member #101
E-mail: havoc@chevelles.com
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441



[This message has been edited by Havoc (edited 11-04-99).]

Hugh- I agree with your comment on elderly drivers. I will not ride in my grandmas car! She doesn't see whats around her ,ie red lights, speed bumps and has a tendancy to do 25 on highways and 55 in her neighborhood. And now she got rid of her gutless 84 Chrysler for a new Acura, we all are still waiting for her to kill herself. That Chrysler got her in enough trouble like riding the brakes untill they were none and doing 100+mph down a mountain pass because of it!

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JT
71 SS Vortec 355
www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports (http://www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports)

Havoc - if you agreed with me on a moral level, then you would act accordingly. Aren't morals defined by personal behavior? If not, then how are they upheld? If the average lowlife doesn't take full responsibilty for his actions, why would anyone want to voluntarily join the fray by modeling that behavior? What pride is there in that? If you want to save your parents from skyrocketing insurance rates, why not do it the easy way? Drive like a responsible person. That way you won't have to go through life lying about your behavior. And you follow through with what you are expected to do in the first place as a licensed driver. (Gee, what a concept!) Or you could just pay for your own insurance policy.

Just curious about something...does your philosophy on life ("trying to beat the system") carry over into your school work, your personal relationships, paying taxes, etc? Seems to me that most people are consistant with regards to their behavior. Though not perfect (which it will never be), the "system" is set up for for people who follow the rules. There is no need to lie and cheat in order to "beat the system." That is, unless, you are trying to write your own rules if the first place. Most people get ahead in life without "having to lie to keep from falling behind," as you put it. Don't you agree? Not trying to start an argument here, just genuinely interested in how you justify your morals with your actions.

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Robert

www.classiccarlot.com (http://www.classiccarlot.com) (15% discount for my fellow Chevelle owners!)


[This message has been edited by rstoltz (edited 11-04-99).]

rstoltz . . . Amen! Not picking on anyone, because I'm far from perfect. If we don't have or follow rules, we degenerate to survival of the fittest. Obviously there are some rules these days that shouldn't bind anyone, but ones that are obviously concerned with public safety are among the necessary ones.

Sure, I'd like to punch my BB '71 and blow the local Mustang geek into the weeds, but I know I can and there's just too much risk (other people around us). Since I would own up to my mischief if I was caught, and can't afford that, I don't. If I kill myself racing, that's just one less dufus on the road (grin). When I jeopardize others, I've crossed the line. We've all driven too fast at times . . most of us have been lucky and lived to tell about it.

rstoltz is right, if you believe in something you'll stand up for it. If you hold certain moral values, you'll live that way. Otherwise, it's all smoke up someone's britches.

rstoltz, I think you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. In fact, I think you were BORN on the wrong side of the bed. All the posts I ever see from you are about how you disagree with what somebody else did or thinks.

As for your generalization about how morals are consistent in all aspects of a persons life, thats baloney. What does pleading not guilty and trying to get your charge reduced have to do with getting ahead in life? You WILL still be cited and fined, but if you're lucky, it will be lessened a bit.. do you really think that if I got my $300 fine dropped to $150 that its going to make that much of a difference? That $150 isnt going to break the bank, or make the state rich, so it really doesnt matter one way or the other.. Id like to know why you think that the price that some politician or lawyer set for fines should be written in stone. All cases are different and should be treated accordingly.. not to mention that a standard $300 fine in one state might be $75 in another state, so theres even more variation. If you were caught speeding in another state and the fine was only $50, would you tell the judge that it would really be $150 in your home state, and that you'd like to pay the extra because its the right thing to do? You still broke the same law, "so what" about a stupid border line.

Also you can change your plea at any time from Not Guilty, to Guilty, to No Contest, etc.. is that a legal way of lying, or is it just changing your mind...




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Mike Reeh
Gold #34
San Diego, CA

Hey you have to manipulate the system to get ahead.

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JT
71 SS Vortec 355
www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports (http://www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports)

mike reeh - Hey sport, you should take a logic class some time. You don't make a whole lot of sense with your arguments. Apparently, lying to have a traffic fine reduced *does* makes quite a big difference. Why would so many people attempt to do it? If it doesn't make that much difference, why not just pay the whole amount?

Regarding traffic violations, people who lie to get out of facing up their responsibilities get ahead in life unfairly in two ways: (1) They get to knowingly break the law (sometimes repeatedly) and do not have to suffer the full consequences of their voluntary actions, and (2) they save a few bucks by lying at the expense of the public’s tax dollars.

Is it fair for my tax dollars to fully support the courts while, at the same time, the truly guilty lie to get out of paying the fine? Why should I spend *my money* to provide a court system that you use for lying just so that you can save *your money*? Why is that fair? If so, please explain.

As for why we (the public) let politicians set the fine amounts and allow individual states (with those “stupid border lines”) to govern themselves, it’s called Democracy. It’s an extension of the whole premise behind the reasoning for founding the United States.

Set aside some time to do a search on this web site for all the posts I’ve made to it. You’ll see that the majority of my comments are not about my “disagreeing with what somebody else did or thinks.” If want to condemn me for that, don’t overlook your last post. Wouldn’t want you to be worse than those you condemn.

I still say that if a person has to lie about their behavior or actions, what they are doing is inherently wrong. If you disagree, then apply your reasoning to the sale of a Chevelle. Let’s say a seller claims he’s the original owner and says that the car has never been in a major wreck. You buy the car and later discover that one of the quarters has been replaced. You call the guy and he lies about it, or maybe he admits it and adds that he had to lie in order to get the “going price” for a car that otherwise appeared to be all original and never wrecked. The extra thousand bucks you spent for the “never wrecked” car isn’t going to send you to the soup line. And it’s not going to be enough for the seller to retire on either. So I guess no harm done, right? (Hey, the same car might cost more in the next state anyway, so what’s the difference.)

Anyway you cut it, it is dishonest. And that is the point I’m trying to make. Lying at the expense of others just to benefit oneself in anyway is dishonest.

[This message has been edited by rstoltz (edited 11-04-99).]

Al, this one has gotten out of control! I fail to see what any of this has to do with "tech" issues and would be better served in another forum.

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Thanks,
ccrider
Member #:267
ACES Member #:3379
66 Chevelle SS

When making a decision, a person often has two choices:
1) The right thing to do
2) The smart thing to do
Quite often, these two choices lie at opposite ends of the spectrum. Pleading guilty when you are in fact guilty would be the right thing to do. However, pleading not guilty and escaping with a lesser fine is definitely smarter. You end up with more money in your pocket, and I'll definitely be able to sleep easier at night when I can pay the bills and keep my apartment. Sleeping out on the street under a blanket of newspapers wouldn't make up for my knowing I did the right thing.

This is what I meant when I said "I agree with you on a moral level." I agree that owning up to what you did is right, but it isn't in one's best interest. I'm sure if everyone was as virtuous as you, the world would be a much nicer place. Unfortunately, most of us aren't. People are willing to lie, steal, and kill to get ahead. Sad, but true.

You can't blame us for taking the easy way out, it's the "System's" fault for providing us with loopholes to escape through. People are selfish, when they have a chance to get off easy, they will take it. It's a smart decision. Besides, is paying a fine and getting slaughtered on insurance going to make it right? If I had killed someone while speeding, would taking away my liscense undo what I did? NO! The point of the fines is to teach people a lesson. However, just getting pulled over was enough to teach me, my court date came 2 years after my infraction, and since the second I got pulled over, I slowed way the hell down. On the other hand, some people never learn. That's why there are so many morons out there driving around with no liscense and no insurance. Perhaps instead of issuing a summons, cops should drag people from their cars and cut off a finger or two. People would then be a little more conscientious when it came to following the rules of the road.

Regarding my own personal philosophy of beating the system, it works like this:
The system is any type of authority telling me what to do. School work and paying taxes
definitely fall under this category. Personal relationships are not classified under the system. I choose all my friends, my girlfriend, etc, and we operate on an equal level, we are all peers. I have no reason or incentive to try and "beat" any of them. If you wanna hear beating the system, I'm doing it right now. I have an applied math homework assignment due to be handed in at 5pm in my teacher's mailbox in the applied math office. The reason it's due at 5pm is because that is when they lock the App Math office for the weekend. My friend discovered that the teacher doesn't actually pick them up until Monday afternoon, so
if we hand them in at 9am Monday (when they open the App Math office) then he has no clue that we didn't hand it in on Friday. So, while the rest of our class is up all night tonight sweating through it, I went to see a movie and now I'm here on Team Chevelle. Maybe later I'll play some Quake3 or watch some Pay-Per-View movies on my friend's descrambled cable. (More system beating). I'll do the Applied Math Sunday night.....

mike reeh - YESSSS!!!!! good lookin on that last post
ccrider - this is a heated debate here, don't make Al zap it! if you're tired of this thread, don't click on the link anymore. simple as dat.

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Ian McDermott
1970 Chevelle SS 396
Gold Member #101
E-mail: havoc@chevelles.com
Web page: chevelle.dhs.org (http://chevelle.dhs.org)
ICQ UIN: 3923441



[This message has been edited by Havoc (edited 11-04-99).]

I'm throwing in the towel on this issue. It's a waste of time to discuss honor and character with those who glowingly take so much pride in being able to "beat the system." I'll shut up now and let you proud cheaters get back to playing a round of golf with O.J!

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Robert

www.classiccarlot.com (http://www.classiccarlot.com) (15% discount for my fellow Chevelle owners!)

Havoc -- Supposing you get married someday, would your wife be an "authority" or a "personal friend"? Seriously, the older I get the less distinction I see between "us" and "them" (I'm early 30s). Professional / business relationships are a real grey area. I see lots of opportunities lost because of questionable trustworthiness or bad past experiences, and opportunities realized because friendships etc... I still believe hard work and honesty are the most practical ways to get ahead (yes there are exceptions).

Unfortunately lying/cheating is pretty much institutionalized is some areas of our society, e.g. courts, taxes, used car sales. Pisses me off, but I don't know what to do about it.

I teach physics at a university. The vast majority of students are honest and hard working. There are always a few who will stop at nothing to get an unfair advantage. We had one student change his answers on an exam after it had been graded and handed back. He tried to claim that the exam had been mis-graded. He had pulled some suspicious tricks in the past, so his exam was xeroxed before it was handed back. Went through the honor court, now his transcript has a glaring black mark on it, and his plans for med school will probably have to change. My philosophy is *1* give as many incentives as possible for students to do the right thing *2* minimize the opportunity to cheat (I would never collect homework the way Hacoc's teacher does) and *3* deal with cheating seriously when it is detected.

Carl

Geez, I thought I was in Bench racing! And here I find a discourse on the "new morality". Lie, cheat and steal to get ahead. Yeah, effin' great. This is NOT the cultural imprint Gen X should leave behind.

Geez, I thought I was in Bench racing! And here I find a discourse on the "new morality". Lie, cheat and steal to get ahead. Yeah, effin' great. This is NOT the cultural imprint Gen X should leave behind. Wes, you'll learn about HONOR in the corps, doing what's right without regard to consequence or what people say. That's a commodity in apparently very short supply in our world. Good luck man.

Woah woah woah here, I saw no indication of anything having to do with age here so don't go automatically blaming this on "Gen-X" as you call it. Which i consider a dumbass name for a generation by the way.

I'm gonna throw in my two bits for this argument just because I can't resist an argument. When it comes to life in genereal, I have always been the "nice" guy, always honest, always go outta my way to let other people be happy, compromise MY happiness so other can be happy. Take crap from other people and not retaliate because it isn't right. And the whole time there were two groups of people, those who told me I was doing the right thing because nice guys get ahead, and those who took advantage of it and walked all over me. Now, the way I see it, being the nice guy got me a great group of friends, not the kind you have in highschool that don't really care about you, but the kind you know would take a bullet for you and you would do the same for them. However as for my position, I am ahead with friends, but in reality I am not farther ahead than when i started. Now I have gotten less "nice" and started to be more aggressive and things are looking better, I still have my great friends, but there are few people who can "walk all over me now".

The bottom line is, the nice guy does NOT finish first, maybe not last either but definitely not first. If I get caught for doing something, I will admit it, but I will also do anything I can to get the punishment lessened and I think every person who reads this would do the same. If your responsible enough to admit it then you should not need a greater punishment/fine.

Also, the moral level that you see around you as I see it is a product of big city life. On average people from smaller towns or rural areas have higher morals and a greater sense of responsibility than city people. Sorry if you take offense to being called city people, but hey you can call me gen-x so tough luck.

BTW I grew up on a farm, but I live in a city now so I can see both sides so I am not biased, and if I had my way I would never live in a city, and I hope that I can afford to live on a farm by the time I have kids because I do not want them to grow up in a big city environment.

Wow this was going to be a 4 or 5 line post when i started typing, amazing how much flows out when you open the flood gates.

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Chris Dagenais
Saskatchewan
'71 Malibu with a home built 454!
member.xoom.com/Gandalf80/ (http://member.xoom.com/Gandalf80/)

Havoc -- FYI: I printed out a copy of this post and highlighted the part when you said you beat the system by turning in your math homework late. And I dropped off the print out at your math department. (I attend Columbia also.) I also printed out a copy of your homepage so that your teacher will know who Havoc is. You're an embarrassment to Chevelles owners.
Fairlane

[This message has been edited by fairlane (edited 11-09-99).]

I'm 20, I got my first Chevelle when I was 19. I was pulled over once. The cop wanted to know what year it was. He had a 71 Goat with a 455 SD motor he was way too proud of. But he claimed 12 second passes, which gives braggin rights, I guess. In any case, TAKE IT EASY. It's not age, it's caution. Don't race everyone. Unless you KNOW there's no cops around. Just race 'em to 40mph, you should be far enough ahead by then to let 'em know who wins. Remember, there's lwas against speeding, NOT acceleartion.

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Another poor college student trying
to keep a hot Chevelle on the streets.

--70 Malibu--
350/300hp (more than that now)
and a decaying TH350

Actually, there are some very clear laws on acceleration. For a quick lesson, the next time you see a cop while you're at an intersection, give it full gas when the light changes and see what happens.

Around here, it's called "Inappropriate exhabition of speed" or "Inproper display of power". The one they usually use is simply "reckless driving".

Kurt

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The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/~68_chevelle/Chevelle/Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/~68_chevelle/Chevelle/Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
T.C. Gold #6
A.C.E.S. #1352

Don't really know the whole thing with fairlane and havoc but that is pretty sad that fairlane had to tell on havoc i don't think it will take long for havoc to find you that was a really dumb thing to do who cares if he cheated the system did it hurt you in ANY way i feel that was way off line what you did havoc and i hope havoc doesn't get in trouble for such a childish act that you did to him.

Hey fairlane, you don't go to Columbia. You don't even scare me! AND AS A MATTER OF FACT THIS WEEK'S HW WAS EASY AS HELL AND I FINISHED IT IN 45 MINUTES ON FRIDAY MORNING AND HANDED IT IN ON TIME.
So next time you decided to be hardcore snitch, think twice. Don't mess with me, don't even try and trick me. Next time you wanna play a joke, think of a good one. Grow a d!ck.

And to the person that tipped me off to this garbage, good lookin.

havoc -- Why is what I did (busting you) any worse that what you like to do (beat the system)? You know nothing about me, so how do you know that I don't attend Columbia, which I DO, by the way. Nice threatening personal email you sent me, too, tough guy. Poor use of profanity though. I expected more variety from an educated college student. I don't want to get into a shouting match with you via email, especially in this forum. So let's just agree to let the chips fall where they may. I will not respond to any of your future posts (or emails) on this issue.

Fairlane, im 15 and wouldn't do that to someone and rat them out for my own pleasure. It didn't hurt anyone and that's just really mean. I'd think you'd have something better to do. And about that thing abot being an embarrassment to Chevelle owners, thats your own opinion and you should keep it to yourself next time because the only embarrassment to Chevelle owners are people who put those p!ss on Chevy decals on the backs of their Chevelles (if they put that on then why do they have a Chevelle in the 1st place?!). Just keep your mouth shut next time. Peace.

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1970 Chevy Custom El Camino aka Kaileigh
Built on: November 25, 1969 in Baltimore
Green Mist #45 w/Green Vinyl Top
350ci/300HP 4bbl Small Block
Factory Dual Exhaust and Rally Wheels
www.dreamelectric.com (http://www.dreamelectric.com)

[This message has been edited by Shawn (edited 11-09-99).]

??? this is not the place for this.

Just to settle the score, i'm posting the header information from the e-mail that "fairlane" sent to me. I know this isn't the time or the place, but whoever this guy is, he's trying awfully hard to make me look a lot worse than I am.

OK, here is a section of the header from the e-mail that fairlane sent me:
Received: from 204.68.23.27 by nwcst282 for [209.63.247.36] via web-mailer(M3.3.1.96) on Wed Nov 10 01:34:37 GMT 1999

Notice the IP the message was sent from, it's 209.63.247.36. If Fairlane was really from Columbia, it would be 128.59.***.*** (don't give me some garbage about how you live off campus and can't get ethernet, why pay $20 a month to JPS.net when you can get free access from Columbia (and a 128.59 IP) from anywhere in the nation, as long as you're a student?)

You're a liar fairlane, and I want everyone on this site to know that. I don't know why you find it necessary to try and hurt me, but I suggest you get a life of your own and stay out of mine. This is about the most childish, pointless, and poorly exectuted ploy I have witnessed in a long time.

Again, to all of the members of Team Chevelle, I apologize for you being subjected to this immaturity. This site is dedicated to cars, and I am sorry the trivial details of my life have become an issue. It doesn't matter whether or not I "cheat" on my homework or not, what matters is that I am a fellow Chevelle owner and I try and help as many people here as I can with the knowledge I have gathered (mostly by learning the hard way) working on cars. I try and bring my sense of humor along as well, but most of this people on Team Chevelle are on a different level than me (ie. not an urbanized youth) and sometimes what I say as a joke may be taken the wrong way. Regardless, fairlane, you were way out of line with what you did and you owe everyone here an apology. If you have a problem with the way I run my life, take it up with me personally, I'll give you my phone number or perhaps we can meet at Cafe 212 (OK Mr. Big Bad Columbia Student, where's that at?) and discuss your gripes with me. Once again, everyone, I'm sorry.

Time to put this one to bed.