Title says it all. Here's the specs:

427sbc 13.95:1 comp
Dart Little-m 4.125" bore 400 main
Lunati Pro-series crank 4" stroke
Lunati Pro-billet rods 6"
Ross flat top 18dg pistons (-6cc reliefs)
Moroso wet-sump pan/scraper/screen
Melling oil pump
Solid roller .748/.732 278/287@.050 110lsa
Isky Redzone lifters
Trend tapered pushrods
Crower SS shaft set-up. 1.7x1.7 ratio
Jesel belt
Brodix 18C-STD heads (cnc'd by Rons porting service/hand finished locally w/new valve job)
52cc chamber
2.18x1.625 valve
Cometic head gasket (.041 piston to head)
GM intake-ported-4150flange
MSD dist (not sure what box/coil the dyno uses)
ATI balancer
HP1000 carb & 4500 carb w/adapter to be tested
Aerospace vacumn pump ~10"
Lemmons headers 2" primary 3.5" collector

The intake ports where left smallish for the intended 7800rpm shift and finished with a volume ~262cc and min cross section ~2.85

There it is. Feel free to venture a guess for hp/tq and at what rpm. I'll report back Weds night with results (good or bad) and announce the air dyno king!

675 hp @ 7400
610 tq @ 5900

John,
Have been looking forward to hearing the results.
My guess is:
HP = 735 @ 7300
Torque = 635 @ 5800

By the way, when and where, if you don't mind maybe Raphal and I could look on.
Thanks Mike Sadowski

774 HP @7200
628 lb-ft @ 5600

with Dominator

750HP @ 7500
663lb-ft@ 6000

709horsepower/658torque

Enough to leap red 68 Chevelles in a single bound ;)

It should make at least 20 more hp with the Dominator.

775 hp @ 7500
650 tq @ 5500


Good luck, should be a killer motor.

715 hp 635 tq corrected numbers

705/630. I hope it's all that and more ;)

Congrats John - That looks like a real good combo. BTW, what's the ring package?

615ftlbs/5750
762hp/7250

Now THAT'S a SBC! :thumbsup:

Nice motor John. :cool:
I really hate to venture a hp/tq guess but I'll ballpark it at 780/680 with the King RS. Good luck and have fun with it...keep us posted on the results.
BTW...the check is in the mail. Thanks again for the Demon goodies.

john do you have the flow#'s? can you post them if so?

Ill bid one dollar Bob...one dollar(or horsepower) hehehe. Thats a price is right reference if ya missed it. Seriously though, Id suspect a little north of 750 horses if the heads flow and 650 ish on the torque.

Mike- we'll be using Naiser's dyno. If ya'll decide to come by you may want to wait till the afternoon. I'm sure the morning will be mostly hook-up/warm-up.

Roger- the ring package is pretty standard stuff, nothing exotic. Total seal ( not the gapless stuff) 1/16,1/16,3/16 (low tenison oil)

94Guy, I've got more flow #'s than I care to admit. Here's how they break down.

Rons advertised #'s- 28" No exh pipe, don't know what bore size

.2-156/129
.3-225/188
.4-281/232
.5-331/243
.6-350/248
.7-360/250
.8-362/na

Local SF600 bench 4.125 bore, 28", no exh pipe, clay radius entry
.2-160/120
.3-228/171
.4-280/210
.5-320/225
.6-344/234
.7-346/243

Also had the heads flowed by Darin Morgan at Reher-Morrison on their sf600 while attending an engine class in Feb. He used a larger 4.185 bore, a thick (looked like 1") radius entry plate, 28".
These intake #'s were basically identical to the advertised #'s from Rons except they hit 359@600 and went flat above that.

Darin didn't like the way the flow stopped climbing at 600 and spent about 5 minutes on the short turn and wall/floor leading into the short turn which resulted in a 13cfm gain @700 with 372cfm. The low & mid flow picked up 1-2 cfm at each point from 200 to 600 also.

With Darins help I passed along the mods to my local head porter to finish the other ports. He agreed with Darin's mods and also felt there could be some more flow with a different valve job. Sorry I don't have the final flow sheet from the local bench with me to provide all the #'s. I do know they got 365@700 on the smaller bore with clay radius (or about +20cfm from out of the box shape).

Clear as mud? :D

I'm not gonna venture a guess on HP/Torque but i seriously want to see what the numbers are.

I'm assembling virtually the same combo for my S/G car but with a 3.875 crank instead of the 4 incher.

I'm looking for the 725-750hp range. My 23* 355" motor ran 9.30's at 570 hp. I'm hoping the extra 150+ will put my car solidly into the 8's off the stop.


Good luck at Naiser's and post the numbers ASAP.


Randy

Enough to leap red 68 Chevelles in a single bound

Bob, that was pretty good! I vote you the winner! :)

Good Luck today John! :thumbsup:

736/677 7600/6000

Wow, what an eye opener. Made 6 pulls total. 3 with the hp1000 and 3 with a dominator. The best #'s came on pull #6 723hp@7200-7600 562tq@5900-6200.

Here's how the day went.
Pull #1 34dg timing hp1000 82/90=638hp@6800 PIG RICH
Over the next 2 pulls went progressively dropped the jets to 80/84 to get the jetting in the ball park. This made 660hp@6900

I brought a King Demon RS 995 to try but ended up not having the proper fittings so the dyno operator let us use the dominator off his small block. This was a custom prepped carb by Braswell. He felt the hp1000 was really choking the motor and the dominator would pick it up 30hp or so. That made me fell a little better because frankly, 660hp wasn't going to cut it. Well, it picked it up 49hp!!!

Pull#4 34dg 1050dom 96/96 jet 709hp@7200
Pull#5 36dg 1050dom 96/96 jet 721hp@7200
Pull#6 37dg 1050dom 96/96 jet 723hp@72-7600

I would have never guessed such a big gain with the dominator. It was also very fat and it was suggested that it could be leaned down to 92/92 for another 15hp but I didn't want to ask since it wasn't my carb.

Problems we encountered & things that weren't optimal:

The dominator, while being much less of a restriction than the hp1000 was rich, similar the initial jetting on the hp1000 was rich.

Temps in the dyno cell during the pulls ranged from 98-100dg. I'm thinking this is why both carbs came in so fat.

Found out after the dyno session that we were running kendall 50wt oil.

The vacumn pump was out of order. The most vacumn generated was 3". I believe its in the valve cover gaskets/-an fitting o-rings or possibly the pump itself.

I was a little disappointed with the tq #'s. I feel like they're about 30ftlbs shy of where they should be. Could be the cam phasing or heads or both, not sure. I'll try advancing the cam once the motor goes in the car.

I felt like the motor had the potential to go 760/615 so I missed my goal. But, I'm sure with proper jetting, a working vacumn pump, and some 5-30 synthetic I could get close to the hp goal, not sure about that tq figure tho.

Wow John! Even if you are a little disappointed in the torque numbers, that is still a crapload of power out of a small-block. Well done :thumbsup:

What are your plans for the rest of the driveline? (tranny, converter, rearend) Any suspension work planned to hook that beast up? What are your ET goals with this combo?

Man, I'm so jealous...:sad:

John - With the minimal number of pulls that you made, I'd say 723 hp was pretty good. experimenting with the carb, cam advance and plugs ought to be good for another 30 hp and then you're right where you (and I) expected you to be. BTW, if the ring seal was decent (i.e., if you weren't getting oil into the combustion chamber) the lack of vacuum probably had minimal effect on the power output. I didn't think this would be a torque monster, but I am surprised that it wasn't a bit higher.

Out of curiosity, did you flow the heads thru the intake manifold?

Regardless, congratulations are in order and now the real fun begins! :beers:

Wow John!! :thumbsup:

I'm a little suprised the TQ figures aren't higher but the HP is awesome! :cool:
Wish you would have been able to try the Demon...
Love to see someone do a dyno comparsion between the King RS and the Holley 4500s.
I need some material to settle an arguement. :rolleyes:

I don't care what anyone says, that's very respectable for any small block. Heck, some of us aren't making anywhere near that with our big blocks:rolleyes: ;)

Holy red 68 Chevelle eater Batman :D Am I an arsehole or what ;) Get that thing in the car, lets see some 9's :thumbsup:

Greg, thanks. I'll be running the same driveline as I am now. Its a TH350 thats been beefed with a BTE drum and other goodies, Denny's MMX driveshaft, and Moser 12 bolt with 4.56's. The tires on it right now are 29x10.5w Hoosiers. The rings were also gapped for upto a 250 shot of nitrous but, I'll be switching driveshafts before trying any nitrous. I'd like it to run 9.60's@138 in good air and 8.9x on a plate. I'll need to have the roll cage finished before I venture too far which will add some more weight to my 3550. I'm guessing between the heavier block and complete roll-cage the car will weigh 3625ish before its all said and done.

Roger, thanks. No, the heads were flowed alone. Not sure what to say about the lack of torque but I will say this, the curve is more like a table than a curve, super flat. I'd just like to see it about 30 numbers higher at pk. I understand your point about the vacumn and agree. I do expect it to be worth 10-15hp at pk rpm over no pump at all. Also, just driving the pump is robbing power and now I'm wondering if I wouldn't have been better off just disconnecting it and venting the valve covers. Who knows????? Woulda coulda shoulda.

Bill, thanks. Actually, that argument was settled for me during the class at Reher Morrison. I asked if they had tried any of the Demon stuff and the answer was yes. The Kings made the same power (once tuned) as the Gary Williams prepped dominators that are delivered on their motors. Problem is the Demons cost more than the Williams carb so there was no reason to change. I have no idea how an unmodded (but tuned) Dom would compare to an unmodded (but tuned) King.

Todd, thanks. Hell, we're all just trying to catch you! ;)

Wow John.....that's one bad Mo-Fo!!

Congratulations.....I think you've put together a healthy combo there. I know my last dyno session was like that...the first pull was in the 680 range. Found we needed to rap it a little higher....played around all day and ended at 825 hp.

That's amazing on carb...I wouldn't have thought that much....did you get any vacuum readings at WOT? Did spacer combo change much between Dominator and 4150?


I'm looking forward to seeing that sucker run too. Any idea when you'll be out with it?


JIM

Holy red 68 Chevelle eater Batman :D Am I an arsehole or what ;) Get that thing in the car, lets see some 9's :thumbsup:

:D

John,

Given the circumstances, I think it's evident you have one MIGHTY mouse on your hands.

You mentioned that the dyno room temp. was 98-100 degrees. What was the measured carb inlet temp? The correction back to SAE or dyno standards is a fairly significant amount on a 723 HP engine. Is the 723 measured or corrected HP?

If the carb was really rich, how much power was to be gained there if a carb swap netted 49 HP? The more high strung the engine, the more sensitive it is to being WAY off on the tune.

There is probably a reasonable amount of power left on the table due to the oil and vacuum pump issues.

I wouldn't sweat it just yet. I think you will find there is plenty left. Did Joe have any thoughts? What was the installed cam ICL?

Wow John.....that's one bad Mo-Fo!!

That's amazing on carb...I wouldn't have thought that much....did you get any vacuum readings at WOT? Did spacer combo change much between Dominator and 4150?


I'm looking forward to seeing that sucker run too. Any idea when you'll be out with it?


JIM

Jim, no vacumn readings. Sorry, didn't tap the manifold or spacers. The 4150 carb was using 2 stacked 1" open spacers. The 4500 used the Moroso 2" adapter. I'm gonna be playing with the 422 a little more before this one goes installed. I've got a 4500 flange Super Vic and this 995 Demon I want to try a time or two before the new motor goes in. I'd like to have it installed by mid-October.

Jason, the 723 was corrected. The thing that comes to mind though is when I dyno'd the 422. In 55dg January air it made 603 corrected hp, in 85dg April air it made 583 corrected hp with better ring seal and coated pistons, all else the same! When Joe at Owens saw my perplexed look, he simply said "come back in January".

The temp was measured with my handheld weather station. It was sitting on a table in front of the window between the cell and control room.

Joe? Yeah, he wanted the serial # off Jeff's carb and also said I could pick up an easy 20hp as is, if I took it to the dyno down the street. The hp is there. I'm not worried about that at all. I feel 760 is very attainable. If the car runs the 9.6@138 @~3600lbs then I know the motor is making the power. We'll just have to get it sorted out at the track with the right converter before making any cam changes and such. I'm thining my current 8" is gonna be too tight.

Cam's at 108 I believe. I'll have to double check.

John,
Did you run this with the carb hat in place?
Did you make a pull without it?

Braswell makes some pretty nice carbs. I've been running his stuff since like '87 or so, always good. If you're looking at dropping serious change on a carb I'd look at their stuff first and last.

Yes, and you've gotta watch those SAE corrections with big HP/Tq numbers and when the weather is bad. There can be over-corrections sometimes. Some guys are using different correction factors, but it makes it difficult to compare between different sessions and stuff.

Excellent numbers, good work. anytime you can get up towards 750 with a small block your stuff is working pretty good.

Nice results John!
And interesting as well.
Since the HOLLEY dominator made so much more power, I wonder if the 1000HP was maybe flawed in the fuel curve? Seems to me that everything I've heard is that Dominators don't really like to be adapted to a 4150 manifold. Clearly, this wasn't the case here. I'll be interested to hear what happens when you try a true Dominator manifold.

As for the Demon....good luck. Personally, I'd stick with the Holley. Seems to me that they invented them, and tuners have way more experience with them as well. Correct me if I'm wrong fellows....but I don't think there is a competitive Pro Stock car out there running the Demon carbs.

With a relatively "small" engine......do you folks really think the torque is way out of line? The power peak was quite high. For it to make more torque......the HP would have to have been higher in the lower rpm as well, and that engine has quite a lot of camshaft in it for the CID. Just curious.

The heads flow like good rat motor heads on the intake side, but the exhaust is a little low in comparison. Could that be part of the torque equation? Again, just curious.

Lastly.....9's huh. Seems more than a few folks think cars at 3550 lbs will go nines with 700hp. I'm not so sure of that, but I'll find out soon enough. My 498 made right at 700 hp with quite a lot more torque, and my car weighs 3550. Nines would be cool, but would get me booted in a heart beat, and that would not be a good thing!
Keep us posted....this is fascinating stuff!
And again, nice job!
Ron

John – I asked about flowing the heads with the intake bolted on because we have seen significant flow restrictions even with ported intake manifolds… particularly with heads that flow as well as yours. For example, our new AlPro RR-245 heads flow 374/262 bare but drop to 366 cfm with an “all out” ported Super Victor 4500. BTW, I think your decision to try that intake (with it’s inherently larger plenum) is a good one.

Ron – I don’t think the torque is “way out of line”. It’s quite good. But I am familiar with a couple of 410 -415 sbc motors that are in the 640 range and I thought John’s combo was good enough that it would be over 600. As for the 9s… Our 383 (roughly 675 hp) runs 10.0s with 3500# and terrible short times. Even though we are probably losing 30 hp less than someone “whipping up foam in a froth box” :), 700hp at 3550# certainly ought to be close to 9s with a well dialed in combination.

John,

Congratulations, you engine is making some serious power! I saw similar gains on the dyno with my engine going from a well tuned Holley HP-950 to a Barry Grant dominator (borrowed from the shop that dynoed the engine). With the HP-950 I made 687HP, using a box stock dominator (1050CFM) with no jetting changes it made 717HP, torque was up as well throughout the curve. I later purchased a modified HP-1000 from Patrick at Pro-System. I never dynoed it but I did some back to back testing between the HP-1000 and my home tuned HP-950 and saw very little gain at the track (~.02-.03 and .5 MPH). So I know I'm leaving some power on the table not using a dominator but I felt the 4150 would provide better throttle response and that is more important to me than max power. It will be interesting to see what sort of improvement the new engine provides over the old engine. I think high 9's are definitely possible assuming the chassis is up to the task. Good luck.

OUTSTANDING! :thumbsup:

68HOTROD- No carb hats were used for any pulls. I've seen them but everytime I've ever dyno'd we've never used one. Whats the advantage/disadvantage of using one?

Tom- I was rightly impressed with that carb. Everything about it was superior to the 4150 (idle, throttle response, power #'s). This one was part of a dual dominator package that runs $3750 for both. I hear you on the correction factors. I found on the 422 that the correction factor in the heat still didn't get me back to my cold weather #'s. In Jan there was no correction factor at all and in April the observed power was in the high 540's that corrected to low 580's. The engine builder for the 427 said he didn't like to dyno in the heat or rain.

Ron- Yes, I still feel that the tq is soft even despite the "small" cubes. I, like Roger have seen some "big" small blocks make low-mid 600's on torque, one was on alcohol though. No problems for Demons for me, but I own both Holley and Demon and both run well. This particular hp1000 runs great and has great throttle response on my 422. I do believe 9.60's can be done. You have to keep in mind that I'm at sea level and enjoy VERY good air in the winter months. I'm not talking about going 60's in 2000ft of air, rather 0 to -500 that we get when it cools off around here. So far I've run a 10.31@129 in -700 air and then added a vacumn pump and ran 10.33@129 (spun .02 in 60') in 1000ft air. This 23dg 422 has a mid low 20 in it in the same -700ft with the pump and this motor I doubt makes more than 640 on the dyno with everything just right.

Roger, if you have any thoughts now or in the future regarding the power curve, I'm all ears. The intake was hand ported by Ron's. In the future I would like to try a cast dominator flange intake for this motor as well.

Ken, thanks. Your carb results are similar to mine. Yes, the suspension will need to be sorted out some more I'm sure. Hopefully the extra tire that I have will lessen my need for a spot-on suspension.

Gene-Thanks.

kjett, did patrick recommend a 1000 or a dominator?

kjett, did patrick recommend a 1000 or a dominator?
He was initially leaning towards a dominator, however after talking about my application (bracket racing, leaving off the foot brake at relatively low RPMs - 1,800-2,400, heavy car) he thought the 4150 would be better. The 4150 that he built for me actually uses dominator metering plates, but the venturis are obviously different than a dominator (as well as other things). I should have mentioned that when I tested the dominator on my engine while dynoing I used a 4500-4150 adaptor that I had purchased with the intake I bought from Lukovich Racing. This adaptor was ~2" tall vs. the 1" tapared Wilson spacer that was tested in conjunction with the HP-950 (this is the spacer I'm running on the car today). Therefore it's possible (and perhaps probable) that some of the gain I saw when switching to the dominator came from the additional height of the adaptor. For me it's really a moot point as I don't have the hood clearance (2" cowl) to run a dominator and the 4150 adapter.

HTH.

hey kjett, can you either PM me or post what kind of settings you had in teh HP950 on the old motor and the new? like jets, PV's, etc....? thanks!

John,
You absolutely have an 800+HP motor if you just make one small change ... Go dyno at WestTech. : )

All kidding aside, that is a very healthy combination you have. I am amazed at how much of an increase you got over the HP1000. I have been running the HP1000 on my 540, I guess that will teach me. It would be interesting to see what a Dominator specific manifold, carb spacer and some time to tune would produce.

Good luck and again congratulations on a great accomplishment.

Nick