ive read quite a bit about the chevy caprice 12" spindle on the net but am confused about what rotors to use? the 1LE camaro rotors? or can i use the stock rotors off a caprice with the calipers pads etc. also what type of master cylinder do i use and how can i get away with using stock upper and lower control arms?
any help is appriciated
also if anyone has a COMPLETE set of instructions with parts and part number it would be appricated.
thanks

Almost all you need to know is right here:

http://links.chevelles.net/links/WorkShop/

I used the offset bar that allows me to keep the stock upper A arm. I refuse to pay what Global West wants for tubular A arms. However, check on E-bay for a guy I talked into making another option of tubular uppers.

Also, "The right Stuff" company out of Columbus Ohio that makes pre-bent (not perfect, but close) brake lines for our cars, also came up with a kit that includes mounting brackets, proportioning valve, and more to help make this conversion much cleaner and easier. A mechanic friend of mine recommended a master cylinder for this setup, and I forget what he said was the year and model he told me to get, but I got a rebuilt one over the counter. I mounted a 7 inch stainless booster on mine. I do have an issue about mating/covering up the hole in the firewall that I have to figure out.

I'm still not on the street yet, and didn't drive the car before I started a frame-off on it, so I can't tell you what the different in feel will be.

Another thing. Some people said there's additional "bump steer" with this set up. Meaning when you hit a bump, things get a little "squirrely". I seen on HorsePower TV where Chuck showed a suspension piece that helped to reduce bump steer. I might look into that. Check the HP TV web site. Once in a while the "info-mercial" has something in there that is new and hopefuly won't gouge the working guy.

Steve

I used longer bolts through the frame to allow more shims. I'm cheap, and I'd rather spend $4 for Grade 8 bolts than $80 for offset cross-shafts, or $160 for new upper arms.

I think the new bolts need to be 2 3/4" long.

I have contacted ARP several times asking them to make ones with the anti-turn serrations, but I never get a response.

ive read quite a bit about the chevy caprice 12" spindle on the net but am confused about what rotors to use? the 1LE camaro rotors? or can i use the stock rotors off a caprice with the calipers pads etc. also what type of master cylinder do i use and how can i get away with using stock upper and lower control arms?
any help is appriciated
also if anyone has a COMPLETE set of instructions with parts and part number it would be appricated.
thanks
The gains do not outweigh the side affects, please reconsider. There are too many alternatives available now to go with "tall" spinlde. You will wind up regretting it, I know I did and so have several others. I those who don't just don't want to admit it or don't actually drive their cars very often.

Dennis,

Huh? I respect your opinion, but I run the heck out of mine and have NO regrets.

I also respect it, but as mentioned I don't regret mine. My 67 handles better than ever. What is your REASON?

I also respect it, but as mentioned I don't regret mine. My 67 handles better than ever. What is your REASON?

He could retype it but if you guys run a search by Denny's user name in suspension / brakes, you will get a run down on everything. Alters suspension dynamics, bumpsteer issues, etc. I am still learning, have tall spindles POR'd and sitting in my garage and I plan to run them for a while, atleast until I can afford fatman or another spindle with a drop that retains correct geometry. It goes both way - there are many folks that reported issues, and many that love it and have none. I suspect these issues are encountered when one is driving at the absolute limits of the vehicle (which I know Denny is building for). I have ridden in a few BBody conversion cars and they handled fantastic and there were no obvious sighns of bumpsteer, up to and including driving with one finger and going over bumps at 70 or so, but I do not doubt at all that it has occured for others. I dont think you will see the reported problems or issues unless you run your ride balls out in the twisties or run it at its limits either on backroads or the track.

For similar type discussions see oval vs. rect. port and manifold vs. ported vac. :D There is hard data, no doubt, that supports the claims in terms of suspension dynamics and its not just individual testing or "hey I noticed this while driving", but actual math and books and stuff intelligent folks can understand.....stuff I aint so good at as yet but still trying to learn. :)

I also respect it, but as mentioned I don't regret mine. My 67 handles better than ever. What is your REASON?

Hard reasons about the negatives of the B-body spindle swap, as you asked:

1. Roll center height still not favorable, and too much roll center migration.
2. Substantially increased bump steer over stock spindles because the steering arms are located incorrectly for an A-body. The bumpsteer isn't a huge issue over small bumps, but the bumpsteer gets quite bad as the wheel moves up or down more than about 1.5" off it's normal height (i.e. over larger bumps.) Just jack the car up and watch the dramatic toe change.
3. Slowing of steering ratio due to longer steering arms-- this effectively reduces your steering box ratio (meaning it takes more turns on the steering wheel to turn the car compared to the stock spindles) and also requires more steering box travel to maintain tight turning ability.

The only thing the B-body swap does right, when paired with a shorter upper a-arm, is to provide a more favorable camber curve in compression; i.e. provide negative camber gain on the outside tire during a turn, allowing the tire to get a better bite. Stock spindles/a-arms provide a positive camber gain on compression and cause the tire to lose traction far easier.

The B-body swap does increase ulitmate grip by virtue of the revised camber curve, but it also causes other problems (see 1-3 above.)

I run B-body spindles. I prefer it over stock, the added grip is nice, but it's not all roses due to the other problems they bring to the table. I don't notice bumpsteer issues because my front springs are pretty darn stiff, so my front suspension doesn't move enough so the bumpsteer doesn't really factor in much. Steering ratio-- yes, it is slower. I had to remove internal stops from my steering box to be able to pull a u-turn.

I will be swapping out my entire B-body based front suspension setup later this year for something better. See here for some ideas... http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93120

Troy

I also respect it, but as mentioned I don't regret mine. My 67 handles better than ever. What is your REASON?
See Troys response...keep in mind that most of you guys are not going to be running in excess of 650lbs springs, so the bumpsteer issues are going to be real issues just driving around town.

As for the amount of turns in the steering department, I went with a Monte Carlo SS steering box from the local parts place. It was rebuilt, over the counter. About $75 plus core.

(stepping up on soap box)

I'm not one to recommend that the average working Joe trying to feed himself and a family goes out and buys these super expensive kits that advertise and get air time on major car TV shows for just a little more performance. In most cases there are cheaper ways to deal with problems or install upgrades.

One recent show had you buying $1,000 in parts to get 19 more horsepower. Sorry, but when I weight the HP to dollar ratio, that's not justifyable in my book.

It used to be these shows showed you how to do it yourself so you can save money. Now it's more about how much money can they make in the "info-mercial" where they pretend to help you, but they only help the sponsor and the rich guys that can afford those overprice and over advertised products.

So don't go recommending big brand name products to solve everyone's problems. I'm sure there are quality products, but there are usually cheaper, and sometimes better ways to get the job done, and that's what this place should be mostly about. Sharing how to get the upgrade done with the most bang for the buck.

Besides, most of us are only using these cars for occasional cruisers and not for racing in the twisties or going over 65 MPH.

(stepping down off soap box)

Now sometimes the product is the only thing out there to take care of a problem, or upgrade performance and the cost does justify the benefit.

I don't know the price yet, but it looks like there's a new product that may solve the bump steer issue. Check this out:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/buyersguide/brakes/mustangbaer/

Steve

Ok, let me jump in with another pro.

1st off, Dennis has always done his homework, and I love reading his write-ups.

2nd - yes there are some bump-steer issues without really stiff springs.

I think this upgrade falls into the category as a good budget (read cheap) way to upgrade to disks from drums if you can't afford a kit, can't find stock discs anywhere, and can't afford high-end parts.

Bang for the buck, this got the job I needed done. I'm also lucky that the potholes out here aren't so bad that I really notice the bumpsteer ever.

For a driver, semi-stock, budget built car, this is the way I'll go every time. I love the brakes, and the handling is fine in my book.

If you truly want to have the most wicked setup that pulls big G's and does it better than anything else, see Dennis' car. He's got a killer setup, and yes, I'd love to have it, but for my little '68, this works just fine.

I don't know the price yet, but it looks like there's a new product that may solve the bump steer issue. Check this out:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/buyersguide/brakes/mustangbaer/

Steve

Baer's "Baer Trackers" have been out quite a while, and they include them with their B-body spindle based brake kits (a set came with my brakes, actually.) You can dial out a bit of the bump steer in the B-body setup with them, but you're still left with a LOT more bumpsteer than a stock spindle and you'll still have the slower steering ratio / reduced throw because the steering arms on the B-body spindles are still too long. (as I said above, you can get the lost throw back by removing the internal stops in the steering box but you'll still have a slower steering ratio than stock spindles.)

Troy

Here's my $0.02. Troy and Denny know their stuff and I won't disagree with what they have to say as far as how to build the ultimate suspension for an A-body.

I went with the b-body spindles, GW upper control arms, and 1LE discs w/GM F-body ('70-'76) calipers. Even with the as mentioned shortcomings of the b-body spindles (which I have yet to feel in real world driving, except the slower steering), it's a vast improvement over stock. Another of my goals with the suspension was durability and ease of replacement parts in the middle of knowhere. GM parts are durable and easy to find in junkyards, local parts stores, and dealerships. The GW upper ball joint can be located easy enough (or one modified) as well. In fact, most of the major components of my drivetrain and suspension can be part sourced at GM or Ford dealers or local parts store. Since I drive my car far off the beaten path many times a year, it's important that I can find replacements and be on the road in a relatively short time. I compromised.

If you tend to stay local and can deal with the fact that a replacement part may not be a FedEx overnight shipment away, then go for the full-tilt suspension. If you get caught in the middle of knowhere with a busted part, you just might be out of luck and be getting a flatbed tow back home. Just something for some of you guys to think about if you tend to drive where these trick parts can't be sourced "in a pinch".

If you truly want to have the most wicked setup that pulls big G's and does it better than anything else, see Dennis' car. He's got a killer setup, and yes, I'd love to have it, but for my little '68, this works just fine.
Your WAY too kind. It is far from ready for that type of status, come see me in a another year.

As for the tall spindle swap....it WILL always have inherent issues that cannot be corrected. The Baer trackers are no different than the typical circle track adjustable outer tie rods. They will help but not correct the condition.

I think everyone should download a copy of Performance Trends suspension analyzer, it is free for 30 days and you can experiment with the tie rod lengths and heights to see what affects it has. It is very educational and will much better explain than I can put into words how it works.

Is the "tall" spindle a bad idea...it is not good but won't kill you either. If you have already done it and are happy with it than you should leave it alone, if you are thinking about doing in the future-don't. By some tall ball joints and a disc brake conversion kit and you will be happier for the same money.

I changed my drum brakes to power disc using F body spindles and Hotchkis springs, KYB shocks, and GW upper arms. The driving experience is vastly improved over stock. It can corner as hard as you would ever want and the ride is reasonable for 600# springs. I would do it again.

Bill, that is exactly what I did except I did not use the GW upper arms. I stayed with my stock arms. I converted to a 1 1/4" sway bar in front and a 1 inch bar in the rear. The reason I went with the drop spindles was to give me a lowered front end and to convert to disk brakes from drums. My car is cruiser. I don't race it at the drags or on a road course. Mine handling is much better. Now I will hustle the car occasionally trough the turns, but not to the limits.

I think my application is just what I need. If I was racing it on a road course then I would install what Dennis has. I believe it depends on what you are doing with the car. I just wanted some inprovements that would not break my wallet.

Sounds like most guys that have done this are happy with the benefits of the conversion. I too had drum brakes before I did the conversion, and I KNOW the braking benefits alone will be worth the money and effort to do the tall spindle swap.

It's just my opinion that there's WAY too much emphasis on spending a lot of money on high end kits from manufacturers that advertise like hell and then raise the price beyond an average Joe's hobby budget to make up for the advertising, and to try to raise profits until the amount of sales fall. Several of them lost my business this way.

I think our hobby at least falls partly in the world of the hot rod tradition, where you put modifications onto factory cars to upgrade them. I know the restoration guys don't exactly fall into that category, but even the muscle cars benefitted from the hot rod world ideas flowing into Detroit.

In my opinion, we need to get back to the most bang for the buck in upgrades, and how we can improve things, especially safety (as in braking), by using over the counter parts. The Tall Spindle upgrade falls well into that category, with the exception of tubular upper A arms, and that's why I'm a fan of this and any other similar upgrades.

Let's give the hobby back to the middle class guy, and not let the high dollar vendors raise prices on parts so high we can't afford the hobby. The only way we can do that is to not always push high end kits for advice, and share info here on new ideas and of new vendors with lower prices ..... like this guy thats now building the tall spindle tubular upper A arms at prices less than the big guys.... if you decide to go that way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33583&item=7979613559&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Steve

Steve, doing it on a budget is all fine and dandy, it's just there's a BETTER way than the tall spindles, and the better way can also be done cheaply-- that's by using your current stock spindles and running Howe tall upper balljoints along with a pair of shorter upper arms from Speedway Motors, Pole Position, etc, which are all pretty inexpensive that you can snag out of any circle track catalog. The taller balljoint on your stock spindle combined with the shorter upper control arm improves the camber curve (like the B-body spindle) but also doesn't introduce the bumpsteer and steering ratio problems that come with the B-body spindles. And you can still get good brakes too for your stock spindles fairly inexpensively by doing a C5 conversion using all off the shelf parts at your local parts stores. You'll need to do a bit of work on your own but it's not hard if you're handy with a bit of metal working.

All I'm saying is don't try to justify the B-body swap on budget reasons alone; if you look just a bit harder you'll find there's better options out there for just the same amount of money!

The gains do not outweigh the side affects, please reconsider. There are too many alternatives available now to go with "tall" spinlde. You will wind up regretting it, I know I did and so have several others. I those who don't just don't want to admit it or don't actually drive their cars very often.


I don't know where u went wrong but I used them on my 71 el camino and loved the change( tho I went globlewest kit(upper a arms ex) and I'm gonna do it to my 70 chevelle.... but then again I drive my hot rod and drive it like a hot rod... that means turning car without ending in the woods cause I needed to slow down so much that I got rearended on off ramp..
yes for sunny day cars there is no point... but if you "drive" your car... man what a difference..

note this set up will suck if you run red line tire with it... need modern rubbber..

I don't know where u went wrong but I used them on my 71 el camino and loved the change( tho I went globlewest kit(upper a arms ex) and I'm gonna do it to my 70 chevelle.... but then again I drive my hot rod and drive it like a hot rod... that means turning car without ending in the woods cause I needed to slow down so much that I got rearended on off ramp..
yes for sunny day cars there is no point... but if you "drive" your car... man what a difference..

note this set up will suck if you run red line tire with it... need modern rubbber..I promise that I drive mine much harder than you ever will, those on this board that know me will attest to this. Check the link below for background. The biggest problem on this board is that guys make a change, to tall spindles in this case, from wore out 30 year old rubber and drum brakes that barely work to all new stuff and claim "it works". Not only is it not a fair comparison it is wrong. It is very simple to prove scientifically that the tall spindles ONLY positive attributes are the adaptation of disc's (which can easily be done to drum spindles) and the improved negative camber gain (which is easily done with taller ball joints). The swap does nothing to correct roll center height, in fact it makes it worse in most cases and the RC migration remains unchanged.

You can't ignore that the steering response post swap sucks and the turning radius is darn near non-existent. I drive my ride everyday, including to the mall and grocery store. Trying to park with a Suburban turning radius sucks. What a PITA to make a 3-point just to park.

If you were to drive a car that has been properly set up you would see what a huge difference it is and much more enjoyable it can be to drive.

I've considered the tall spindles, but only because of the bigger rotors. Is there a 12" conversion out there (that uses the stock spindles) that's cheaper than the Baer stuff?

Check out Touring Classics or David Pozzis site for C4 caliper ideas. They use 12" rotors and the brackets are easy to build for stock spindles.

I agree with Dennis, brakes by Touring Classics is the way to go for those contemplating with tall spindle swap just for bigger brakes, you can keep your stock spindles. Stay away from the tall spindle swap, much better alternatives out there.

I promise that I drive mine much harder than you ever will, those on this board that know me will attest to this. Check the link below for background. The biggest problem on this board is that guys make a change, to tall spindles in this case, from wore out 30 year old rubber and drum brakes that barely work to all new stuff and claim "it works". Not only is it not a fair comparison it is wrong. It is very simple to prove scientifically that the tall spindles ONLY positive attributes are the adaptation of disc's (which can easily be done to drum spindles) and the improved negative camber gain (which is easily done with taller ball joints). The swap does nothing to correct roll center height, in fact it makes it worse in most cases and the RC migration remains unchanged.

You can't ignore that the steering response post swap sucks and the turning radius is darn near non-existent. I drive my ride everyday, including to the mall and grocery store. Trying to park with a Suburban turning radius sucks. What a PITA to make a 3-point just to park.

If you were to drive a car that has been properly set up you would see what a huge difference it is and much more enjoyable it can be to drive.

before the swap the part under the car where all new nothing worn and tho.. it did have drums... was set up on kill for cornering...two way adj. shocks etc.... tried difference bushing poly/rubber.. different swaybars springs.... then went to the tall sp.swap... worked!!!!
turn rad.. fix the stops in you str box.. you can't change one part and think that you don't need to change/mod. others to get the most out of it... went from a nice .87g around the skid pad to a better .93 then to a .94 with tuning... and 3 mph though the cones...
you can go baer brakes for the disc swap... that works but I like being able to go to napa,etc. and walk out with a part for my car and drive it that night.. aftermarket brakes....not tomany part house stocking them..

then went to the tall sp.swap... worked!!!!
turn rad.. fix the stops in you str box.. you can't change one part and think that you don't need to change/mod. others to get the most out of it... went from a nice .87g around the skid pad to a better .93 then to a .94 with tuning... and 3 mph though the cones...
you can go baer brakes for the disc swap... that works but I like being able to go to napa,etc. and walk out with a part for my car and drive it that night.. aftermarket brakes....not tomany part house stocking them..
Modifying the stops won't do anything for the steering ratio and defiantly won't help with the bump steer. The tall spindles may be of an advantage to a cone killer but put that beast on a road course for an HPDE event and that RC migration will get real old real fast.

The C4/C5 brakes are plenty available at any parts store.

If you’re going to do anything then do it Right the First Time!
Nobody likes to sit on the sidelines working on their ride when the weather is nice.
I personally believe Global West has the best all around suspension for A-body Chevy's.
My '67 Elcamino can out turn any stock Camaro !

Note: I am not positive, but you may have to use 16" wheels with the 1LE rotors
__________________________________________________ _______________

This is right off the Global West web sight: http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm

Important:
We have ran into two different types of 12-inch disc brake spindles. One version uses a small outer bearing measuring .750. The second type uses a larger outer bearing measuring .850. Use the large diameter outer bearing spindle.

Note: Bring a tape measure with you to the wrecking yard because many of these vehicles also had 11-inch brakes. The rotors off of (B) cars have a 5 on 5 bolt pattern. You have a 4-3/4 bolt pattern, so you will not need the rotors. Use 12-inch rotors off a 1988-1992 1LE Camaro/Firebird GM part # GM 18016035. This is all you will need off the 88-92 Camaro/Firebird. 1LE rotors have the correct bolt pattern but use 12mm studs rather than 7/16 studs. You need to change the studs over to 7/16. We use a DBS-42 kit ($20.98) for this conversion. The wheel stud holes in the rotor will have to be opened up slightly in order to convert to 7/16 studs. A 35/64 drill bit will do the job.
The brake caliper we use is off of a 1970-1976 Camaro/Firebird. These calipers are the right width for 1LE rotors. Use an 1-1/8 master cylinder with power brakes and a 1-inch master for manual. We use an adjustable proportioning valve rather than a standard valve. If you have front drum brakes and converting to disc. You will need a proportioning valve. If you already have disc's and upgrading to larger brakes for the handling kit. Your original proportioning valve will work.



Try this link:http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm

Modifying the stops won't do anything for the steering ratio and defiantly won't help with the bump steer. The tall spindles may be of an advantage to a cone killer but put that beast on a road course for an HPDE event and that RC migration will get real old real fast.

Have you ever had a Chevelle with Negitive Roll suspension on a road course before? I have!

also you said . . ."Modifying the stops won't do anything for the steering ratio"
ARE YOU DAFF ? ? ? Obviously you do not have a clue to the total suspension geomatry

ARE YOU DAFF ? ? ? Obviously you do not have a clue to the total suspension geomatry
OK, whatever. I think you show your level of suspension kinematics understanding by your own posts. Thanks for chiming in though.

BTW, steering gear ratio has no bearing on suspension geometry.

dennis68

I apoligize for the DAFF remark !
:o It was uncalled for on part :o
:D Count to 10 then Send :D

All that it may be, I think we may not be on the same page. I was assuming that 70chevellemalibu refering a spindle/rotor swap with a steering box swap which were left over (thoughts) from a previous thread

"BTW, steering gear ratio has no bearing on suspension geometry."
It does if you start changing the suspension components, including the spindles. To my knowlage, 1LE rotors will not fit on just any spindle either.
Camaro spindles; install a large amount of shims, use offset x-bar, or get the proper A-arms.

Steering gear, linkage and the steering arms are part of the steering system.

Control arms, uprights, and springs are suspension system. The only part that is common to both is the steering arms when part of the uprights.

Changing suspension design can alter steering response but not vice versa. Nothing you do to the steering will alter the suspension kinematics.

Even eliminating the steering turning radius and steering ratio from the picture you are still left with bump steer which cannot be fixed with "B" spindles on the car and RC migration.

I would rather have 12" C4 rotors than 1LE so that wouldn't be a concerning factor for replacing the spindles for me.

Let's not get sidelined with words that most people have trouble with such as, kinematics. For those who are wondering, here is what it means:


In physics, kinematics is the branch of mechanics concerned with the motions of objects without being concerned with the forces that cause the motion. In this latter respect it differs from dynamics, which is concerned with the forces that affect motion. Because of its relative simplicity, kinematics is usually taught before dynamics or the concept of a force is introduced. The equation of motion is generally taught at secondary school level.
Geometry of a typical 1LE spindle is much different than an A-body spindle. Anything you change in the steering or suspension will affect the way the car handles and performs in the fingers of the driver. And that my friend is what it's all about.



So I ask you 70chevellemalibu, what exactly are you trying to achieve? Is it a Sports car handling with better stopping power, maybe drag race suspension or just a general overall smooth ride with big-ass brakes?

You can change anything or everything on a car, but the one thing that will most likely stay the same, is your driving habits.
How do you plan to drive your Chevelle?

wow thank you guys i didnt except this many answers there is quite a bit of information for me to work with...thank you again

Geometry of a typical 1LE spindle is much different than an A-body spindle
Agreed, however the 1LE spindle will not ever fit an "A" body. It doesn't have an upper ball joint boss as the 1LE uses struts.

Anything you change in the steering or suspension will affect the way the car handles and performs in the fingers of the driver. And that my friend is what it's all about.Again, I agree. I was simply pointing out to our viewers that suspension geometry changes affect steering response but not the other way around. As the driver you will perceive a difference in the way it drives but simply changing the steering gear will not make it handle better.


Now back to the bump steer curve and poor roll center characteristics the typical "tall" spindle creates.

Dennis,

Did you ever get around to installing the Howe centerlink? I've got mine on, but I don't have my car far enough back together to start adjusting it. I thought I remembered something about you having engine clearance problems with the centerlink. I wasn't too concerned about the bumpsteer with the B-body spindle as many here have not had issues, but I'm hoping this will completely eliminate any possible problems - and maybe make the swap more viable.

Ryan

I just put a GW/Baer system on my 70 Chevelle. The reason I chose these manufacturers was because they were there at most of the events or shows advertising (fell for the advertising hype)...and they had the most complete kits availalbe (it seemed) at the time. There are a lot of circle track and road course websites out there becoming more popular to most of the general population looking into this from a "convert from drum to disk swap" perspective. I think that is where a lot of folks get scewed into believing the ad hype over what your really getting....that as it was mentioned, a nice big disc brake system along with it's inherent problems of bump steer. With that said, one thing I did not want to do was shop around and try to see if parts from different manufacturers fit and work together when I got home. I must say that if I had been exposed to some of these threads before my purchase(s), I would have chose a few different compnents. I drive my Chevelle on the street, pretty hard sometimes (when the road is clear) and enjoy that. I will concur with Denis and Troy that the Baer system or the "Knuckle Sandwhich" swap (which includes tall F body spindles) does have a lot of bump steer in it when the front suspension gets deep into it's travel. Case in point, I finished doing the alignment adjustments on the front end, cater, camber, toe.....then I had to lift the front of the car off the ground (wheels too). Wow, what the hell happened to my toe adjustment.....way out! So since I also got the Baer adjustable tie rod ends I thought, well ok I got these expensive sleeves.....lets install them and make some adjustments. Did an initial test with no shims....and saw a huge toe change! Added a few shims under the tie rod ball joint, which I suspected would make it worse, and it did just that....only made things worse! So what did I do? I removed all the shims and...well it was still way off! Nice addition to my suspension....what a waste! This will happen and gets worse the closer the suspension gets to the end of it's travel. If I had it any other way I would go with the stock spindles with the longer upper ball joint or use the new Fat man spindles when they become available. I would also go with adjustable upper a arms rather than the fixed type....there's just more adjustability if you need it. I think I will look into the Howe center link next and see what advantages it has over the stock link. Do not steel this thread from 70Chevellemalibu but any comments would be appreciated as a side note.....

There's likely to be more people chimming in with comments about this swap as time goes on and the news propagates and makes more sense to uninformed buyers.....the kinematics is not optimal with this spindle and especially if your using soft springs and driving your car hard which will allow your car to get deep in the suspension causing lots of bump steer...

Sam

You need to install shorter tie rod ends when using tall spindles.

You need to install shorter tie rod ends when using tall spindles.
Nothing you can do will correct bump steer in the "F" or "B" spindle swap.

Did you ever get around to installing the Howe center link? I've got mine on, but I don't have my car far enough back together to start adjusting it. I thought I remembered something about you having engine clearance problems with the center link. I wasn't too concerned about the bump steer with the B-body spindle as many here have not had issues, but I'm hoping this will completely eliminate any possible problems - and maybe make the swap more viable. Nope. I had oil pan to center link interference. No matter, the new spindles I plan to be running do not require a center link adjustment to have zero bump steer.

yup u'r right the b body spindle swap doesn't work.....
thats why Jeff Smiths 64 chevelle out cornered almost all comers at a media event... killing cars that are made to corner in the first place... yup the global west neg roll front kit doesn't work at all...
nope junk... lol
happiness is a chevelle that out powers and out corners the best the world has to offer...

Yep, some people are easily blinded by media hype and good advertising instead of doing their own research. :waving:

Don't think for a second that it wouldn't hurt the magazines budget to come out with the truth about the "tall" spindle swap. Remember that the magazine relies on advertising dollars to stay in business. How many pages of the magazine are devoted to ads for companies that cater to the "tall" spindle swap or polyurethane bushings...gee I wonder why they can't seem to say enough about them.

BTW, which engine was he running, I’m sure the extra couple hundred horsepower over the competition didn’t hurt his times.

yup u'r right the b body spindle swap doesn't work.....
thats why Jeff Smiths 64 chevelle out cornered almost all comers at a media event... killing cars that are made to corner in the first place... yup the global west neg roll front kit doesn't work at all...
nope junk... lol
happiness is a chevelle that out powers and out corners the best the world has to offer...

99% of the time a good driver in a mediocre car will be faster than a mediocre driver in the best car. ;)

(not knocking Jeff's car, it's cool!)

We've gone over it countless times in this thread, yes the B-body swap does increase traction via the revised camber curve, but not without bringing other negative traits to the table, and there are BETTER solutions out there.

Can you still drive the car with the B-body spindles? Yes. I do so right now, with my GW front suspension just as you describe, and I drive it pretty darn hard. It works pretty good, but there's better ways of achieving the same goal (better cornering) without having the drawbacks of the B-body spindles. A good driver can "drive around" the drawbacks up to a point, but he would be that much faster if the issues with the B-spindles (roll center height, RC migration, and bumpsteer) were taken care of.

That's all we've been trying to say in this thread; yes the B-body spindle swap is time tested. EVERYONE knows about it because of the kits out there that get all the magazine and press attention. Yes they increase ultimate cornering grip, normally proved via skidpad numbers; however the skidpad test just tests your ability to go fast around a flat circle, not fast through fast right/lefts, over dips and bumps in corners, etc. That's where the negatives of the B-body swap rear their head. Not as many people know about the other, more favorable routes to go about suspension upgrades because until recently you had to piece it together. Piecemeal combos don't tend to get magazine attention (because there isn't one company behind it paying for ads), even if they are a better solution-- most people are looking for the easy way out via the kits.

Tell you what, want to buy my complete GW / Baer setup off the front of my car? It's up for grabs. :D

Troy

I find these discussions pretty amusing now that the prices of new replacement spindles and brake brackets have come down. All these big brake conversions started out as a way to get discs on drum cars, and then a way to get 12" rotors on disc brake cars.

It was cool when it was cheaper to go to the yard and get a set rather than try to find 68-72 spindles and brackets, but if you look into the economics of it, you are paying a lot of money to say "I got 12" brakes"

Don't forget to take a look at our sponsor for disc kits and parts, and don't forget to take a look at local parts places for replacement parts like rotors and calipers.

I never had any trouble with my '71 Elco stock disc brakes even chasing motorcycles up over Angeles Crest Hwy. Granted, it wasn't a racetrack where brake cooling time is limited, but they still would haul that thing down to a stop pretty rapidly when needed. I think the stock setup weighs less than the big spindles too. HUGE benefit in ride and handling.

Just my two pennies thrown in as an alternative.

K

Maybe this is a dumb question, but I'll ask it anyways. :)

Ball-joint spacers were used on a lot of drag cars in the 60s. Figure it was an attempt to gain some more suspension travel. But did these spacers change the geometry? I'm thinking no. Might have affected caster/camber slightly - but the pivot point hadn't really moved up/down. Am I looking at this right?

Knowing what we know now, could we not build them better today? An offset would be most simple...

bowtie6872
First I wonder if you have ever owned a Global West kit or (personally) driven a Chrvelle with a GW Neg roll kit?
If so, what settings were the shock set at and what tires were you running?

dennis68

Yep, some people are easily blinded by media hype and good advertising instead of doing their own research.

My knowlage of Global West negitive roll suspension is not from media hype. It's because I installed the entire kit on my '67 Elcamino in 1999 including rebuilding the steering box myself to give it aproximatly a 12:1 ratio resulting in two turns lock to lock.
I have thousands of miles and many races on my 'ole Elky and never had a single problem, especially bump steer. I have out cornered some very fast, road course cars. So please don't expect me to believe it when some tells me it's all hype or junk.
My only complaint is; the bench seat doesn't hold my 220lb body in place like a Vette or Porsch would. :p


Note: Not to be confused, I am refering only to F-body Camaro spindles on A-body Chevelles

I have thousands of miles and many races on my 'ole Elky and never had a single problem, especially bump steer. I have out cornered some very fast, road course cars. Yeah...Ok. Even the vendors who sell the tall kits admit to the bump steer problems, Baer even sells a kit to try and fix it.

BTW, what "very" fast road course cars have you out cornered? ANny lap times to back it up?

BTW, what "very" fast road course cars have you out cornered? ANny lap times to back it up?

Since I do not (road) racing at major race tracks, time slips are a moot point because each course is different. I've already mentioned two cars, but I suppose you'll come back and tell me those drivers suck or something to that nature :rolleyes:

With shock adjustment and tire change I have ran the 1/4 mile as low a 12.20

There is no reason for me to try and convince you that how quick my Elcamino turns or that I do not have bump steer, or even my 1/4 mile times because you won't believe me anyway.

Have a nice day

Yep, some people are easily blinded by media hype and good advertising instead of doing their own research. :waving:

Don't think for a second that it wouldn't hurt the magazines budget to come out with the truth about the "tall" spindle swap. Remember that the magazine relies on advertising dollars to stay in business. How many pages of the magazine are devoted to ads for companies that cater to the "tall" spindle swap or polyurethane bushings...gee I wonder why they can't seem to say enough about them.

BTW, which engine was he running, I’m sure the extra couple hundred horsepower over the competition didn’t hurt his times.


It was a media challenge!! car mags raced against each other!!!! and motor trends has any car they want at their pecking call... it had nothing to do with "magazine ad's or budget etc... it was about bragin' rights!!!!!!!!!!!
and horsepower doesn't help you at all at sears point,,ask any nascar driver with an ill handling car...

bowtie6872
First I wonder if you have ever owned a Global West kit or (personally) driven a Chrvelle with a GW Neg roll kit?
If so, what settings were the shock set at and what tires were you running?

dennis68

My knowlage of Global West negitive roll suspension is not from media hype. It's because I installed the entire kit on my '67 Elcamino in 1999 including rebuilding the steering box myself to give it aproximatly a 12:1 ratio resulting in two turns lock to lock.
I have thousands of miles and many races on my 'ole Elky and never had a single problem, especially bump steer. I have out cornered some very fast, road course cars. So please don't expect me to believe it when some tells me it's all hype or junk.
My only complaint is; the bench seat doesn't hold my 220lb body in place like a Vette or Porsch would. :p


Note: Not to be confused, I am refering only to F-body Camaro spindles on A-body Chevelles[/size][/font]



my old el camino 1971 (don't own now sold it)
ran penske racing shocks all four corners( need to find log book to list settings)
ran 650 p left front spring and a 625 p right front spring and 200p rears(i think again need to look at log book)
tires where bfg (kg's) 255/50/16 fronts and 345/50/17 rears
this was with a big block(donovan) and th400..
swaybars endlinks where rod ends and the frame bushings had (3)1/8" holes drilled in them (around 9 o clock when viewed from the side of the bushing)

rear bar was the thinest one i could get to fit

gw neg roll kit on front .. rear was adj. upper links and adj. lowers( made with rod ends and chromemoly tubing

what do you what cardiac!!!!! it worked, it turned, it wasn't tail happy..
and skocked alot of bmw's and porsche that this truck had no business keeping up whit nevermind out running!!!!!!!!!!

I got an open mind and not afraid to try new ideas ... so what parts do you use to get the goodpoints of the b body spindle with out the bumpst...you said there is a cheaper way ... spill it... I got two chevelles I'll try it on the 71 and see what it can do... part list please.....
please share......

p.s. this is not to start a fight,, I love tring new things and if it works and is cheaper then cool...

my old el camino 1971 (don't own now sold it)
tires where bfg (kg's) 255/50/16 fronts and 345/50/17 rears
p.s. this is not to start a fight,, I love tring new things and if it works and is cheaper then cool...

Not trying to start something,either,but tell us again what size rear tires you were running on that 71 Elky? Never heard of a 345/50/17 and I know for a fact the 345/55/17 BFG's won't fit these cars.(I've got a pair in my shop instead of on my car,because they are too tall).

again i'll need to find the log book.... maybe they where 295/50/17's 0r 325/50/ need to look

325's won't fit either and 295/50's would be a tight squeeze as that tire has a pretty tall sidewall. I’d really like to see your Elco with combo you claim take a Porsche (besides a 914) at Infinieon.

Yeah, media challenge, no sponsors huh? So if Jeff had got is butt whopped and said the GW stuff wasn't working and sucked do you suppose on Monday morning they might be making a phone call to cancel their ads? I do. Everything a magazine editor does (his own time or otherwise) is subject to sponsor and ad relations.

Comparing a Cup car with handling woes to any other form of motorsports is asinine. With the exception of maybe F1 or CART no other form of motorsports has such evenly matched cars. So in that case a few extra HP won't help an ill handling car. However, if I take Jeff Smiths ill handling GW neg roll pig with it's 600HP and put it against a 325i with much better suspension but only 150HP, that back stretch is going to make a world of difference and that BMW is going to get whooped. So HP does matter.


Alternatives...there are dozens out there. I'll let you use the search function for details. They have been discussed extensively in the last year.

Alternatives...there are dozens out there. I'll let you use the search function for details. They have been discussed extensively in the last year.


so in other words you don't know what parts are alternatives.. you just know that there are some....
if i lived on the computer the search function would be fine but I don't but thanks anyways!!!!

so in other words you don't know what parts are alternatives.. you just know that there are some....
if i lived on the computer the search function would be fine but I don't but thanks anyways!!!!
Ummm, actually I was being an ass. If I'm not mistaken not only have a I commented on many of the posts I started most of them.

Here's the short list:
Fatman spindels
ATS spindles
Coleman spinldes
SCP spindles (your design, assuming you have a clue how to design suspension geometry)
OE spinldes with an SC&C stage 4 kit
SC&C stage 5 C5/C6 kit
Wayne Due C5 frame

You don't have to live on the computer (BTW, you posted on this forum alone as follows:
Today, 07:18 PM
Today, 05:13 PM
Today, 03:42 PM
Today, 03:15 PM
Jun 13th, 05, 09:41 PM
Jun 13th, 05, 08:57 PM
Jun 13th, 05, 06:26 AM
Jun 13th, 05, 05:57 AM
Jun 13th, 05, 05:47 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 08:30 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 08:11 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 07:47 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 07:24 AM
Jun 11th, 05, 01:08 PM
Jun 11th, 05, 01:03 PM
Jun 11th, 05, 12:40 PM
Jun 9th, 05, 05:28 AM
Jun 7th, 05, 05:38 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 05:24 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 05:12 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 02:43 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 02:32 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 02:10 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 01:44 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 01:24 PM )
You get the idea, although not here everyday...you are here enough to be able to use the search function and maybe even Google instead of insisting your set-up is best (even proven wrong with indisputable evidence) and asking to be hand fed the formula for optimum geometry.

Arguing with someone on the computer is like,
yelling at yourself in the mirror :p

Ummm, actually I was being an ass. If I'm not mistaken not only have a I commented on many of the posts I started most of them.

Here's the short list:
Fatman spindels
ATS spindles
Coleman spinldes
SCP spindles (your design, assuming you have a clue how to design suspension geometry)
OE spinldes with an SC&C stage 4 kit
SC&C stage 5 C5/C6 kit
Wayne Due C5 frame

You don't have to live on the computer (BTW, you posted on this forum alone as follows:
Today, 07:18 PM
Today, 05:13 PM
Today, 03:42 PM
Today, 03:15 PM
Jun 13th, 05, 09:41 PM
Jun 13th, 05, 08:57 PM
Jun 13th, 05, 06:26 AM
Jun 13th, 05, 05:57 AM
Jun 13th, 05, 05:47 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 08:30 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 08:11 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 07:47 AM
Jun 12th, 05, 07:24 AM
Jun 11th, 05, 01:08 PM
Jun 11th, 05, 01:03 PM
Jun 11th, 05, 12:40 PM
Jun 9th, 05, 05:28 AM
Jun 7th, 05, 05:38 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 05:24 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 05:12 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 02:43 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 02:32 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 02:10 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 01:44 PM
Jun 7th, 05, 01:24 PM )
You get the idea, although not here everyday...you are here enough to be able to use the search function and maybe even Google instead of insisting your set-up is best (even proven wrong with indisputable evidence) and asking to be hand fed the formula for optimum geometry.

thanks for the list I'll look into them..
I am not looking to be hand fed anything(if you don't work for it ,it's not yours)
and if you think I can remember everything I did to my el c off the top of my head your mistaken...
and yes I come here inbetween my 3 jobs looking for info..
It's to bad that you get blasted everytime you post something..
and my reply was to cartiac but again thanks for the list ...
my set up was by no means "THE BEST" it just worked(good enough for me) and I went with a porsche raceteam around where I work to walken glen and ran faster laps than some of they're clients in they're over priced toys..
maybe they where not the best drivers,but neither am I!!!
if the parts you listed look like they'll work and at a lower cost..I'll look into them farther.. and the porsche team (crew) would be helping me "set up the suspension geometry" as I am only at the tip of the iceburg on the learning curve.....
I wasn't looking to be "handfed" but a set up that works together is better than try'n parts after part to get it to work... a baseline is always nice... as I don't have the budget that ,that kind of parts "testing" would require!!!

p.s. I'm here for info. If a part combo that others tried and worked ..then thats info that helpes others not just me(looking to be hand fed).. I'm not here to pi$$ anyone off... just info. that help me build these chevelles ..I already own the gw set up for the 70 but the 71 the parts are "up in the air" and I'd like to try a different set up... if it works better than what I've used then great... the Idea is to get info on parts that "did" work together than make the same mistakes that others already have..(learn from other mistakes,save a buck)
have a great fathers day!!!

oh and by any chance you wouldn't have web.addresses for the co. parts you listed would ya?????
if you do thanks..

Here's the short list:
Fatman Spindles (http://www.webrodder.com/index.php?page=listProducts&CID=11&PHPSESSID=00a1cd050887f065c8e1c21967296398)
ATS spindle (http://www.t56kit.com/site.html) go to products/suspension/modular spinlde
Coleman spindle (http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_1109&products_id=5514)
SCP spindles (http://www.stockcarproducts.com/susp18.htm) Yes, they require going to a GN hub and building your own brake brackets
SC&C (http://www.scandc.com/) you'll have to call for details and pricing. The web site hasn't been updated in awhile
Wayne Due C5 frame (http://www.waynedue.com/index2.html)
Art Morrison (http://www.artmorrison.com/maxg.htm)

Here you go