With of all the varying opinions on clones versus real SS Chevelles, here is a guy that in now reproducing fake "aged build sheets". From his ebay auction 4553646239:

"THE SERVICE INCLUDES REPLICATED BUILD SEET WITH AGING PROCESS TO GIVE IT THE REAL LOOK OF AUTHENTICITY.....ALTHOUGH THESE ARE REPRO'S I HAVE YET TO SEE ANYONE KNOW IT!"


I wonder who will get ripped off next by a misrepresented car and lose their hard-earned money.

Did you just call him a "Chevelle guy"? :confused:

I noticed the item is invalid by now.
It's unbelievable what those guys keep coming up with.:o

Olli

I updated the auction number...it's 4553646239 and it's still listed. You're right, he's not a Chevelle guy...he is a Chevelle con guy.

As far as I can see, there's only one reason why anyone would buy a build sheet like that, and that would be to fake a car. Original build sheets should only be used to prove how the car was built from the factory, and I can't see that any serious restorer would need a replica for shows etc. I'd call this forgery, no less.

I think he is a Chevelle owner judging by some of the items he bought. He was the winner of several 70-72 Chevelle prints. I sent him a nasty email about the auctions he is running.
James

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4553646239


:rolleyes: :sad:

I believe the high bidder is Brian ? from T.C. I think he used ta live in Akron but must have moved to Brook Park. For $70 I'de buy one!!;)

"THE SERVICE INCLUDES REPLICATED BUILD SEET WITH AGING PROCESS TO GIVE IT THE REAL LOOK OF AUTHENTICITY.....ALTHOUGH THESE ARE REPRO'S I HAVE YET TO SEE ANYONE KNOW IT!".................................................. .............................evidently from the above quote its obvious his customer base so far has been uneducated buyers. Corvette guys have tried to age and reproduce tank stickers for years and the only ones theyve fooled are the fools themselves....

I believe the high bidder is Brian ? from T.C. ;)

You're not talking about Bain, are you? I wouldn't be surprised at all :rolleyes:

What really sucks is these guys are leaving out us guys with 66 Chevelles...where's my repro. build sheet!!!! :sad: :( :angry: :D ;)

What really sucks is these guys are leaving out us guys with 66 Chevelles...where's my repro. build sheet!!!! :sad: :( :angry: :D ;)

Can't get one for a 68 either!!:sad: :(

BL

WATA Idiot!! How about guys selling (or renting) block stamping equpt, or NOS vin rivets , or the final insult THIS::::
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7975209003&category=6783
Is this not a CRIME!!?? In all states..
Well I steal one.... put this Vin# on it....(with the NOS rivets) re-paint it , get a repro trim tag -- Built sheet , Stamp the block ,,,
Hey #"s matching Chevelle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!
for about 300 buckzzzzzzzzzz

I emailed the seller. Here is my email and his response.

Mine:
"I hope you know you are doing a terrible service to the muscle car collectors. How many people are going to get screwed out of their hard earned money by buying a car with fake documents you are selling? Greedy people like you hurt the hobby."

His response:
These are reproductions, no different than window sticker reproductions, I only translate legitimate information.

Noticed the high bidder has bought an original protect-o-plate and fake protect-o-plate on E-bay as well. :sad: Some other LS-6 parts too. Looks like another fully documented LS-6 in the works.:angry: :angry:

THIS will knock the wind out of the hobby,hell you wont know what or who to trust,this swapping vins and redoing build sheets is a descrace!!!!now a pillar with a vin---what a shame !!!this will make me not trust a build sheet again!! or a vin or whatever---I got the build card for my 67,but not the broadcast sheet,guess what!!I dont want a repro cause--IT AINT FRIGGIN REAL---THATS IT AND THATS THAT,I gotta live with just the build card--thats it,and thats the only doc my car will ever have---but least I got it!!

this crap needs to be stopped,every chevelle will be documented,and we know that just aint so---these Impostures must burn !!!!!

how can these money grabbing sleeze balls sleep at night?--sucks---67rat

Looks like the collector Chevelle hobby is going to turn into what the 'vette guys are facing now.

Joe

God Bless Greedy *****s.

On the build sheet, all he does to age it is tea bags. I mean there are no spring marks, no track marks nothing. Just a couple splotches of tea. WHAT A SHAME!

My car has NO documentation. Nor the original motor/tranny... Really, I don't mind, I got a "U" in the vin (vin plate has the GM part number on it.. LMAO)....

Well, I guess you better buy your dream chevelle now, before it is too late to tell between a dressed up Malibu and a 427 '69. Even still, it's getting very hard to tell the difference...

-Todd

Just because it's now on E-Bay doesn't mean it hasn't been going on for some time, how many "matching numbers" cars do you think are really out there. Seems like a whole lot always for sale on E-bay though.

"tHIS will knock the wind out of the hobby,hell you wont know what or who to trust"............................Dont worry it will take alot better forgeries than the ones currently on the market to fool people that know buildsheets.Its not a new endeavor,many others have tried to duplicate paperwork,and while POPs are impossible to detect,buildsheet replicas really suck to the trained eye.. If you dont know what a real buildsheet looks like,ask someone who does before buying a car for big $$..........

Wow here is another http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10076&item=4553732360&rd=1 Hmmmm bidder looks familiar??? Sorry , same guy

it is because of butt monkeys like this that i buy malibu`s and change the drive trains and rear ends!! so my car isnt a 35,000 dollar all numbers matching ss from the factory i get a kick in the pants every time i blow away a big block ss with my lil malibu with a 525 horse small block!!! and all for under 15,000!!! i have a bunch of buds into that factory ss stuff and they tell me all the time they wish they had done what i did!! just my 2cents not tryin to offend anyone!!

Seeing some of the disgrace these guys do, makes me want to find them and punch them. These guys are one step above the lowest scumbags of the earth. Thieves.

Couldnt e-bay ax this action due to fraud? Im going to start selling counterfiet dollar bills then. As far as im concerned, its the same thing.

Wrong, just wrong.

I own an original 69ss396,a few good options, in the process of restoring/modifying, but no paperwork.

This clown (and others like him) are degrading the last remnants of my youth!!!

Take em out back and shoot em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is sad to say but this guy on eBay has only brought to light what has been going on. This has been going on with the vettes for some time and now that the other cars are bring big bucks it has flowed onto them. Some of the mistakes is the type of print and paper but the more experienced even take care of that. Some of these fake items are very difficult to tell the difference. It is going to get where you will have to get the paper work carbon date tested. I was so happy to find my build sheet above the gas tank and these kind of things seem to make it insignificant.

GM could put an end to this crap real fast. They need to help in setting up a system like the one for Pontiac where you can get a car’s build record. I know there are all sorts of rumors and stories about destroyed records but I believe they could be found. Wasn’t it about 2 years ago that there was some talk of Chevy records being researched.

A-Men Mike, but the sad part is, thats all about the money also, GM will not release the info (if they really have it) because of the hudge profits there making on after market parts, that end of GM is there most profitable division after GMAC, this guy who's doin this otta be talked to buy a whole hurd of real LS-6 owners, maybe he wouldnt be able to punch his key board afterwards JMHO

Well, If GM is afraid of losing profit from their aftermarket products (don't see why, they don't make many NOS parts anymore....) Then they could charge a nominal fee that would help suppliment their aftermarket profits. I;d be willing to pay a pretty penny to find out what my car originally came with..

Also, the only people who would lose out on this would be the scum bags who try and play "Oh I am Sure it is an SS......"

Just my $.02

I agree, but those same scummers are willing to pay 300% markup on those GM Restoration Parts made in Korea or where ever,, catch 22

Yea, they can pay for what ever they want and how much ever they want. But if GM let out the records ("they dont have"). That would just prove a car is really what it is. No way around it. Other then break into the GM records department and destroy/change the car file...

Golly gosh. I have to wonder where all this indignation and condemnation was when I spoke out here a couple of months ago about where clones were going to lead the musclecar hobby? Seems no one was too concerned then. "As long as they don't try to pass them off as real" was typical of the (kinder) responses. Well, now you see what the next phase will consist of. Lets see if the 'live and let live' attitude is still pervasive now. Left untreated, any disease will spread.

I haven't seen the buildsheet repro this guy is selling but most are fairly easy to spot. The Paddock sells a blank 70-72 buildsheet and comparing it to a real one shows obvious differences. As with the repro window stickers the fonts are usually different than the real stickers. Anyone considering a high dollar purchase should have a Chevelle authority attempt to authenticate any paper work prior to purchase. I know many of the guys on this website are willing to help out and try to stop the fraud.

With of all the varying opinions on clones versus real SS Chevelles, here is a guy that in now reproducing fake "aged build sheets". From his ebay auction 4553646239:

"THE SERVICE INCLUDES REPLICATED BUILD SEET WITH AGING PROCESS TO GIVE IT THE REAL LOOK OF AUTHENTICITY.....ALTHOUGH THESE ARE REPRO'S I HAVE YET TO SEE ANYONE KNOW IT!"


I wonder who will get ripped off next by a misrepresented car and lose their hard-earned money.

There's only one way I know of to turn white paper yellow in a hurry. I don't think I'll be buying anything from that guy in this lifetime!

That is awesome. Ingenuity at its best. This is what your car needs to bring the big $ and they know it, and are doing something about it. What some people will do for a buck. It's gonna be a lot harder to buy a car now. Build sheets won't mean crap. So we'll have to be a little more savvy, and look A LOT deeper to see if we are getting what we're getting.

Golly gosh. I have to wonder where all this indignation and condemnation was when I spoke out here a couple of months ago about where clones were going to lead the musclecar hobby? Seems no one was too concerned then. "As long as they don't try to pass them off as real" was typical of the (kinder) responses. Well, now you see what the next phase will consist of. Lets see if the 'live and let live' attitude is still pervasive now. Left untreated, any disease will spread.
So, are you saying clones are a disease now? This thread is about an item that will be used to perpetrate fraud. Do you think that someone that has built a clone has perpetrated fraud?
If I were in the market for a car, I would not get burned by a "fake" SS. Its the quality of the car that determines its value to me. I would buy it for its face value, not for what its supposed to be.

Technically, this guy has not perpetuated any fraud. He is only providing a means for someone who wishes to perpetuate a fraud. This is capitalism at work in it's most wretched form and was inevitable from the day the first clone was built. I doubt that there would be a significant market for this type of service if his only buyers were legit SS owners that have lost their buildsheets. Not enought o make it worth his while anyway.

Everyone that posted here on this subject said that they did't CARE about documentation, and just wanted to build clones because they were cheaper than originals. Well now we have clones AND documentation and SOMEBODY is wanting them. How these people will use them is not even open to debate.

I'm not going to go down the clone road here all over again. I feel that the point has been made better than I ever could. If the 'disease' metaphor has offended anyone then help me out here with a better one. I don't know how to put a positive spin on something so negative. This should be a wakeup call for the entire hobby, regardless of which side you are on.

GM could put an end to this crap real fast. They need to help in setting up a system like the one for Pontiac where you can get a car’s build record. I know there are all sorts of rumors and stories about destroyed records but I believe they could be found. Wasn’t it about 2 years ago that there was some talk of Chevy records being researched.

While I am not sure this is possible, it would help. Think of it this way...all of us with "real documented" cars are getting screwed. The more of this forgery that goes on, the less your car is worth. There will come a day when the only "true documented" car is one built in Canada that you can get the verified records from.

While I am not sure this is possible, it would help. Think of it this way...all of us with "real documented" cars are getting screwed. The more of this forgery that goes on, the less your car is worth. There will come a day when the only "true documented" car is one built in Canada that you can get the verified records from.

Or one that was originally shipped to and sold in Canada. I'm starting to not feel so bad I have no original build sheet... I DO have the GM of Canada docs! :thumbsup:

They could very easily be forged but not verified by GM Canada unless they're real!

This type of thing has been going on for years, sleaze bags cashing in on inexperience and ignorance. I know of one local resto shop that has been turning out SS convertibles on a regular basis, every one gets sold for top buck. Reproducing build sheets will just cause the inevitable to happen that much quicker, the price will come down.
There may be a silver lining to all this, the hobby that it once was may return.
Overpriced "authentic" cars will begin to sell for less and less because it will be extremely difficult to prove what they are or are not. The profiteers will move on to something else. This will leave the cars to the people who love them for what they are and enjoy working (Playing) on/with them.
The feature car this month is a prime example of what it's really all about.

Hey I just took a good look at this "look of authenticity" build sheet. This guy isn't as good as he thinks he is. The VIN on this sheet is 136370K meaning a Kansas car yet the build sheet says Arlington Plant, Arlington TX at the bottom. OOPS !!!! You can tell the two different shots are of the same build sheet because they both have 182682 as the rest of the VIN.

Trooper

THIS will knock the wind out of the hobby,hell you wont know what or who to trust,this swapping vins and redoing build sheets is a descrace!!!!now a pillar with a vin---what a shame !!!this will make me not trust a build sheet again!! or a vin or whatever---I got the build card for my 67,but not the broadcast sheet,guess what!!I dont want a repro cause--IT AINT FRIGGIN REAL---THATS IT AND THATS THAT,I gotta live with just the build card--thats it,and thats the only doc my car will ever have---but least I got it!!

this crap needs to be stopped,every chevelle will be documented,and we know that just aint so---these Impostures must burn !!!!!

how can these money grabbing sleeze balls sleep at night?--sucks---67rat


if this brings these cars back to reality in pricing because no one knows what is a real one or a .fake... so be it.... cars are to be driven.. not parked and then auctioned off again and again.... the really gready sleeze balls are the ones at the auctions buying one at stealy and the selling it a jacksons.... they are only middlemen that don't care only in it for a buck... if this stop that so be it...... there isn't a car made in the 60-70's that worth the money they sell at now.... people are fools......
yes my chevelle gonna cost me 25-30 g's to build but not the 50+ they cost at those auction houses...
100000.00+ for a ls6 chevelle... people are fools....it's a ls6 so what,your not gonna drive it hard....... and a chevelle built like most on the street with a bigblock will hand it it's a$$....
what it the big bruu ha ha about...
so the factory built it....
I built mine and it'll do everything a ls6 can but better....
you wouldn't pay 60g's for a new camaro if a 50g's vette did everything better than it..
you worry about if you can tell a fake ls6 from a real one I'll take a 350 chevelle,SS or not cause I can drive mine without needing prozac to carm my nervousness.......

man, for a bunch of guys who claim to now own the "car you've always wanted", some of you sure do get your panties in a bundle when you discover that the value of your "dream car" might be affected.
if you truly "love" the car and have always wanted one, then why does it matter how much it's worth? hell, with the values coming down, maybe you could afford to get several versions of your "dream car"- you know, one in every available color- and maybe convert and hard top cars in matchng colors and drivetrain options.
y'all need to start looking at the positives of all this.

Most of our dream cars are L78's or Z16s, etc. The people who dream about it, dream for the real thing... With this, you won't know wether what you're driving is real....

Anyone read Freiburgers' editorial in the July '05 Hot Rod?Not exactly this subject,but worth a read if you haven't.My opinion is the high prices are hurting us regular guys as far as original stuff goes,"they" say it's helping us in the aftermarket,though.I got my '70 in '99 for $700,I've got more than $10,000 tied up in it now,and you couldn't tell it,still no paint,still has the rust.But,it does get driven hard,very hard,every day.It may be a piece of junk,but it's mine and I love the thing.Had the wrong build sheet under the seat,it's just an old big block Malibu.Couldn't care less about the #s.

The e-bay guy is a scumbag and should be regarded as such,IMO,if he's falsifying,or helping to,original documents.I know that's very important a lot of people and the industry.Same for people passing off clones as originals.I just hate us small time guys getting caught up in it.

I've been thinking about this a bit.
The guys selling this stuff reason "I'm not comitting a crime".
Though they are facilitating somebodyelse commiting fraud.

At the same time, I think it was bound to happen.
The prices for muscle cars have become kinda rediculous.

I'm afraid to sell a car for fear of not being able to afford another in the future.
I really like these cars but if I hadn't bought what I did when I did, I wouldn't be able to afford them now.

Guess guys that want cars for fun will be hopping up later malibus, and disco novas.

Those cars have what some of us in this hobby crave, don't cost much to buy, and they're lighter too.

Just not quite as cool looking.
Some of them do look pretty good though.
Probably less rust on them too.

The first Hundred thousand dollar Chevelle SS was both a proud day and the end of an era.
The Chevelle SS had been a working mans classic.
It may become too collectable to be fun anymore.

When is the last time you saw a Hemi Cuda on your local drag strip ?

When is the last time you saw a Hemi Cuda on your local drag strip ?
Every time I visit my cousin! He's just a kid and fixing up a cool car like me, and he has it even worse... harder to find stuff for that car at a decent price than chevelles. But think of it this way... it's like unions. Working to keep other people out so that prices remain high.

Is there any left ???

Every time I visit my cousin! He's just a kid and fixing up a cool car like me, and he has it even worse... harder to find stuff for that car at a decent price than chevelles. But think of it this way... it's like unions. Working to keep other people out so that prices remain high.
Your Chevelle was built by a union company. In spite of that, somehow the vehicle was affordable to somebody at the time. As was several million other vehicles made by all the union automakers. How many 35 year old imports do you see on the streets? FYI, I hear that Daewoo is not union made.

Was diggin' through a bunch of old saved favorites...

I thought it fit pretty well...

http://www.ifccfbi.gov/index.asp

Brian...others...without a reliable build sheet...what are the remaining ways to definitively know whether a 454 is an LS5 or an LS6? Surely there is a laundry list of things (hopefully not copiable) that were unique to these options - certain casting numbers? certain casting with companion items (manifolds) - unique pump (water, oil) (for example, one way to tell a 428 or 429 cobra jet from a super cobra jet is the latter has an externally cooled oil filter on top of the radiator (sorry to use a FoMoCo example!!)) - i think i read the fuel line set up may have been unique -
i think i read that m22 could only go with an ls5 or ls6 (i guess that does not help with automatics - or was there a unique automatic to those engines) - how about internal engine parts - certain castings on rods - 4 bolt mains v. 2 - certain types of valve trains - perhaps with a full laundry list of what an LS5 or an LS6 would have v. any other 454, that is something we can do to assist the hobbyist in avoiding the frauds being perpetrated out there.

Many thanks,
Stephen


[quote=Brian Donovan]That is awesome. Ingenuity at its best. This is what your car needs to bring the big $ and they know it, and are doing something about it. What some people will do for a buck. It's gonna be a lot harder to buy a car now. Build sheets won't mean crap. So we'll have to be a little more savvy, and look A LOT deeper to see if we are getting what we're getting.[/quote

GM needs to know about their "trademarks" being used on all these "repo stickers,build sheets,cowl tags" and I hope they would put their lawyers on it. ??? wishfull thinkin' ???

LS 5 and LS 6 are both 512 castings but the LS 6 block has 2 large oil ports above the oil filter for external oil cooling.Also pull the pan,4 bolt mains.

Always seems to be some jerk playing the system. That guy and others like him will get his.....maybe not as soon as we would like but he will get it......meanwhile let's all enjoy the good feeling of playing legit!!!

Just wait, there is a lot more silliness to come. It is my understanding that in the Corvette hobby that there now exists more "documented" L88 Corvettes than Chevrolet ever produced.

Thomas

Well good news is as long people don't start cloning/documenting 1970 Malibu 350's with the glovebox light option I'll be in good shape :-) :beers:

Well good news is as long people don't start cloning/documenting 1970 Malibu 350's with the glovebox light option I'll be in good shape :-) :beers:



Hey, I know what you mean. Even though my BB Malibu 400 convertible is most likely as rare as an LS-6 convertible I doubt I will ever have to worry about clones, tribute cars or fake build sheets. :)

Anyone look at some of the other items the high bidder had gotten lately? Very odd assortment IMO.
$77.00 for a 1969 warranty book w/El Camino POP
$29.00 for a battery hold down clamp
$59.00 for a 68/69 Vette owners smog control brochure
Postcards and matchbooks
$200.00 for a set of 69/70 SS wheel center caps.