I started this thread a while back..never really got to the bottom of the problem, although I thought I did.

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67946

After my last post, I drove the car to the bodyshop(january). It is now painted, etc..and today I drove it again for the first time since I dropped it off..just a short trip to get the top put on it.

Over the weekend, I pulled the stick through the gears with the car off and cold. No apparent problems.

Today, I warmed it up..then gently drove it to the upholstery shop. After about 5-10 minutes of normal am driving in traffic..it got harder and harder to go into first gear when I came to a stop. I had to resort to 2nd gear, and 3rd gear in one instance to get moving. Upon arrival, I tried for reverse and got a nice clunk.

What am I missing here? I really need to get to the bottom of the problem this time, this is making me nuts.

Clutch and trans were/are new..they have less than 100 miles on them..probably not even 50! clutch fork is a GM. clutch is a hayes. I am 99.9% certain my shift rods are adjusted properly, and I already went through the setting of the pivot ball in the correct location (as far as I know).

Could my throwout bearing be incorrect? Seems strange why the car shifts fine until everything heats up, then it goes away

Are you sure that the clutch is adjusted properly ? Sounds like it may not be disengaging completely after it gets hot.

Bill:

I am really not sure at this point. I really dont think its the shift linkages, as I went through them last time, and all were ok, or were adjusted then. I really dont think its the trans, as its a brand new wally unit.

Once I set the pivot ball at 4.75" from the block, I had PLENTY of adjustment rod to use (its currently in the middle of the range, and the fork angles forward when the TO bearing is just touching the fingers of the clutch). I also loc-tited the pivot ball with red loctite last time..so I cant believe it would have moved again..but i guess its a possibility. Also, I am using that 4.75" number based on what everyone says to use with a CF clutch..could it be different for Hays?

I think my issue/concern last time was when I lengthened the clutch adjusting rod, the throwout bearing was getting close to touching the fingers of the clutch when the clutch pedal was up..but maybe I do just need to lengthen the rod a bit more to get what I need..I guess that is a safe place to start.

The other thing I know for sure is that my throwout bearing is not secured in the clutch fork the "right" way..I think there is a little trick(?) regarding how the bearing is held in the fork..well I had a buddy helping me (who is an old 4spd guy)..and "that is the way Ive always done it" came into play...then we found out later that its not correct..I am wondering if this is at least part of the problem. Maybe the TO bearing is too far fwd. or back, depending on how it is currently sitting in the fork-maybe either aggravating or causing the problem?

Here is some info on the clutch and TO bearing currently installed:

Ram Clutch through Summit..listed as RAM-88764. The throwout bearing in this kit measures approx. 1.25".

Hays told me that if the clutch fork is angled forward when the TO bearing touches the fingers, then that is what I am shooting for. If the fork is straight out or angled toward the back of the car, then I need to adjust my pivot point or use a longer TO bearing (long bearing pn 495, or you may find it locally under BCA number 614037 per HAYS).

I am really hoping this is something simple, and I dont have a defective clutch or something. If anyone can help to make sense of this, I am all ears.

Thanks,

John

Bill and I chased that very problem in a 60 vette, the clutch linkage had to have a piece added to the bottom of the Zbar so we could get enough throw to release the clutch when fully warmed up. Had that trans out 3 times I think.

wow, thats an interesting thought wally..i am using a repro Zbar from our wonderful sponsor...could it ever possibly be incorrect enough so as to cause me this grief????

Could be and it could be like Tom said, new clutch blues. Bill has the best idea about toe play adjustment, use you hand to feel the play, your foot is a poor judge of how much play there is.

That Zbar deal is all about mechanical advantage, not enough the clutch won't fully disengage.

It also sounds to me like a clutch adjustment, not a tranny problem. I would be VERY inclined to think that this is the case if the clutch is a brand new clutch. After it has been run a few miles, it very likely just needs a little adjustment.

tom:

I really hope thats all it is. Assuming that is it...any ideas on how many miles it will take to break in all the way before it stops needing adjustment?

I know I will get this fixed eventually, just really hope I dont have to drop the tranny again thats all. Trying to exhaust all other options first! If I only had a lift in my garage....!

tom:

I really hope thats all it is. Assuming that is it...any ideas on how many miles it will take to break in all the way before it stops needing adjustment?

I know I will get this fixed eventually, just really hope I dont have to drop the tranny again thats all. Trying to exhaust all other options first! If I only had a lift in my garage....!

As far as the trans is concerned, about 50 miles of driving should be all it needs to seat the brass, then you can hammer on it. The clutch should not change much after you get the bugs worked out.

Well I drove the car home yesterday..this time it was getting hard to get in gear even when cold, so im sure its way out of adjustment. It was creeping a little bit when the pedal was all the way down to the floor with the car in gear.

One other observation/question...hopefully someone can advise on this one..

My trans is a new M22W. The shifter 'kit' was the one from Ground Up..its a Hurst Comp + shifter with a Muncie handle. I purchased the kit for 69 Chevelle SS396.

Is it possible that the installation kit/shift rods for the Ground Up kit are strictly intended for a 1969 Muncie Trans? Is the M22W a little bit different, and maybe requires a different installation kit from Hurst?

The reason I ask is this..when I installed the trans and shifter, it is pretty tight up under the floor of the car. Now with the hole cut in the floor and hump in place, it seems that some of the rods are hitting under the floor, or something..it just doesnt seem 100% right at this point. Or is it possible that I have to 'massage' some of the shift rods I have in order to clear the floor/other rods?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get this to work as the factory would have intended it to.

If your car creeps when the clutch pedal is to the floor and the trans is in gear,......that has nothing to do with the shifter linkage. You don't have the necessary airgap between the clutch disc and the flywheel when your left foot is down.

You may have other problems with your hole or the fit, but that is not the cause of the creeping.

Jim:

Understood..I think I have two problems.

Wally: Please respond asap regarding the shifter linkage/installation kit for this trans..AM I OK USING RODS FOR MY YEAR CAR? Or should I have purchased another set of rods that are more specific to the M22W??

Has anyone else installed one of these transmissions with a Hurst Comp + in a 69 Chevelle??

No difference in rods unless it's a 32 spline extension housing, then they are different.

There ius no reason for anything to hit the floor as well, these cars came with 4 speeds and they should still be able to use one some 35 odd years later.

Wally:

Its a new M22W tranny purchased in the fall...doesnt that automatically mean 32 spline tail extension? I am pretty sure that is what I have.

If I have 32 spline, what year shift rod kit/installation kit should I buy? 71?

What is the difference going to be versus what I currently have for a 69 muncie?

It sounds like the clutch linkage is bending or actually breaking. Early Novas are famous for the z-bar tearing the arms off because it was hardened too much. It might be the same problem with the aftermarket Chevelle one.

Your symptoms sound similiar to what I have experienced and the hard shifting in particular. It all went away with a clutch adjustment and it now goes into all gears smoothly.

I also have a Ram clutch and have questions about the repro Z bar I have and whether it is correct or not. I have had to jury rig it up to move the pushrod pivot point in order to get adequate adjustment. In the process I also slightly increased the effective lower arm length so as to get a greater throw at the clutch. If your Z bar is like mine, you are losing a lot of potential clutch throw due to the excessive forward angle of the lower arm. Mine is 45 degrees forward when it would seem like 15 degrees would be better. You may want to check out and/or follow my thread on this:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89541

Steve

Hello fellow Chevelle nuts.........

I'm a newbie and I am glad to be here. Sometimes I can also be found on the Net as 502_6speed......I have been checking this site frequently and decided it was time to join........I got a 70 with a ZZ502/502 backed up with a Richmond 6 speed.........she is real fun to drive!

Did you ever check your bellhousing transmission retainer hole alignment for being concentric with the crankshaft pilot bushing? This measurement has a close tolerance of +/- .005 We have fixed many hard shifting transmissions with a proper bellhousing alignment check. Parallel alignment is +/- .001 We know if someone stops by the shop and their vehicle has a "blowproof bellhousing" or "non original to the engine bellhousing" there is an alignment problem causing the "hard shifting" blues. Second would be the clutch adjustment.

Regards, Jody

Jody:

Thanks for the input, but...Yep..I dialed it in..it was less than .005" and less than .002" on the face of the BH.

I wont be able to work on my car again until next week, but the first thing I will do is adjust the clutch with the adjustment rod and see what happens..then drive it and check it out.

I will report back with my findings. Thanks to all those that have replied so far..this is very frustrating!!!!

jtm60,

Our simple test for alignment or clutch adjustment problems is:

1.) Drive your vehicle for about a 10 mile ride to get her up to operating temperature.
2.) Shift the transmission into neutral and apply your parking brake.
3.) Idle your vehicle for about 10 seconds
4.) Depress clutch pedal to the floor and after 5 seconds shift your transmission into reverse.
5.) If you have a reverse gear crunch, you have a problem!
6.) If your clutch is engaging 2" off the floor......you most likely have an alignment problem.

Regards, Jody

Jody:

I will probably work on the car this week, and I will give your method a shot. Regarding the clutch, I think I have a MINIMUM of a clutch adjustment ahead of me, maybe more.

Regarding the Hurst Comp + installation kit I used.. The kit from Ground Up for '69 used Hurst P/N:373-7834. I double checked with Mr. Gasket/Hurst Tech Line today, and explained to them what I had..and they told me I should be using installation kit 373-7897. I asked them again...if this is what they recommend for use with the Autgear tranny, and they said yes..

Based on the part #'s looks like ALL shift rods and All arms are different than what I got in the kit from GU. Guess I am buying another installation kit in order to get to the bottom of this. I will post back with what I find out.

Just an update:

Found the shifter handle was partially hitting the underside of the shifter hump..clearanced with hammer and punch, that problem is solved.

Installed new Hurst kit/rods/arms...seemed to have issues with 1-2 rod and 3-4 rod hitting one another..very tight clearance. It seems that this was also an issue on the original installation kit.

Executive decision made (in accordance with fine print on Hurst instructions)...to bend the 3-4 rod as required for clearance. Had to bend it a good 1/2". End result: After adjusting all the buttons and re-installing metal bushings..with car off the trans shifts GREAT through all four gears and reverse clicks in nicely. It shifted like this before, but each gear did not always feel this positive..I think this time its a done deal.

On the clutch end, I found that my pedal was travelling almost 3/4 of the way to the floor before it felt like it was depressing anything. I loosened my adjustment rod and went about 3-4 turns (lengthening the rod), and now the clutch pedal starts doing some work after about 1-2" of freeplay at the very top. I guess I will know after I try driving it again whether this did anything for me.

If you are still having a problem. check the z-bar. I'm in the process of replacing mine for the second time. On mine the top lever folded over. Last tme it completeltly sheared off. After talking with several different sources, they all recomended that a fillet be welded to the inside of both arms to keep them positioned properly. Any welding shop should be able to do this. It cost me $12.00 (cheap insurance). Post back and let us know how it works out.

If you are still having a problem. check the z-bar. I'm in the process of replacing mine for the second time. On mine the top lever folded over. Last tme it completeltly sheared off. After talking with several different sources, they all recomended that a fillet be welded to the inside of both arms to keep them positioned properly. Any welding shop should be able to do this. It cost me $12.00 (cheap insurance). Post back and let us know how it works out.

I don't know who is making the new Z bars but they are not as nice as the real GM stuff was. We bent up stuff when the 3400 pound clutches were the rage. Big left legs, bent linkage stuff like that was the end result. I'm glad clutch technology has made major improvments.

I will definitely double check the Zbar, but as far as I know right now I dont have a problem, but Wally had warned of this type of thing earlier too. I can have it welded no problem at work if necessary, or I can look for an original GM one. Now excuse me as I repeat my favorite phrase 3x: "I love repro parts, I love repro parts...."

I am really beginning to wonder how many of these companies can stay in business with the lousy quality(and lousy attitudes in some cases) that I have been seeing on reproduction parts. The majority of the stuff I have bought has needed serious tweaking to get it right or close to right..its really frustrating and takes some of the fun out of the project. Our "friendly" sponsor is in no way exempt from this statement. Taiwan parts suck. Just calling it as I see it.

I am really beginning to wonder how many of these companies can stay in business with the lousy quality(and lousy attitudes in some cases) that I have been seeing on reproduction parts.

The majority of the stuff I have bought has needed serious tweaking to get it right or close to right..its really frustrating and takes some of the fun out of the project.

Taiwan parts suck. Just calling it as I see it.

Ditto above!

(Just finished installing a repro 66 grille---same ill-fitting frustrations you decribe.)

Another update..

Well I drove the car home from the body shop with no issues last weekend. It shifted GREAT-the best it has since I installed the tranny. Each gear felt very positive through the stick, yet did not require undue force to shift..firm and a bit notchy as Wally described it would be with the new trans. There were no issues with the clutch from what I could tell. I took the car out again earlier this evening and drove around for a solid 30 minutes shifting up and down at will. I probably have close to 50 miles on the car now since everything was rebuilt and installed..shifting action seemed to get better the more I drove it, and dare I say I feel confident that the problems have been worked out?

As noted above NEITHER of the Hurst installation kits I got were correct for this application without bending the shift rod as noted (although Hurst does say you may have to do that, even though they told me on the phone it was unlikely). With the extra bend added to the 3-4 rod, the rods are now more parallel to one another and there is a nice straight pull through the shifter...I wasnt totally surprised that it worked better based on how it felt with the car shut off after the rod was bent.

I assume that the clutch adjustment I made was enough to take car of the problem. There is about 1-1.5" of pedal free play at the top when I move the pedal with my fingers and I still have some adjusting rod left, but I am more towards one end of the rod now. Also, I greased the Zbar zerk fitting real good, I think I had forgotten to do that before, which probably didnt help anything.

I am happy now to have a functional 4 speed and I am looking forward to playing around with the car over the summer-what a thrill to pull through some gears, its really fun-I had a big smile on my face when I pulled into the garage tonight. Thanks to everyone who replied to this thread, hopefully it will help someone in the future who likes to read!