In time I plan on frame off restoring my 70 Chevelle to concourse condition.It has most of its original lacquer on it now which is checking pretty badly on the black stripes.I have talked to many good body shops who all recommend base coat clear coat.I was told its more durable and holds up better.Of course the car is going to be well stored.What are your opinions for an original show car?What are the pros and cons of both?Thanks

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Dean Ciampi
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 MY LS6 CHEVELLE (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)

As much as I like the easy way to do things, forget the lacquer paint. It is very old and not so good technology. Go with something that is more modern.

We base coat/ clear everything any more or depending on color use a single stage urethane. I would hope you are going to media blast this car before you do your bodywork? We have not had a complaint by anyone at the shows we have done with the cars we have taken.

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Micky Hale Restorations
69 L-89 Chevelle
68 Biscayne 427/425
34 Plymouth Drag Car
ACES #134 www.mickyhale.com (http://www.mickyhale.com)

[This message has been edited by micky69396 (edited 09-16-2000).]

Thanks guys I appreciate your help.Yes I do plan on media blasting the car.My only concern is that I have seen an autumn gold Chevelle at a car show and it looked a bit lighter in color then my orignal paint LS6.It was a BC/CC car.I have heard BC/CC paint has a different look then original lacquer.I hope to score very well at the national level shows when my car is done so I am looking for the closest match.I have heard diamond class restored cars are painted in original lacquer.Is this true?

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Dean Ciampi
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 MY LS6 CHEVELLE (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)

NO, we have done a couple (diamond cars).BC/CC You can get several samples of paint to see what you think matches up the best. Your original paint may be off also, best place to compare is usually the bottom of the deck lid since no sun has seen it. Also you can get them to scan your paint to make a match. I would make sure you have the paint you want before you strip it.

Thanks for your help Micky.I will follow your advice.

Dean, think the shop that did my work might be in the same class as Mickeys, but I'm presuming. They do some concours work and he said he wont shoot lacquer. Picked up color from inside of trunk lid, adjusted slightly for age and Viola, just like Mickey says. I specified the 67 is not a concours type and he said,

" Don't matter, we do all these cars the same. You never know, you might get into showing it rather than cruising or racing."

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Gene #62gold/ACES
67 SS396/(427L88) (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/chaas00.jpg)

Great.I guess I will go with a BC/CC.

260, if you are planning to compete in councours restorations I suggest you go with lacquer paint. Mr. Willard from the MCC had a 68 (1 of 7)painted in red lacquer. Since the car was never outside, his paint job looked liked it was recently painted. My friend had a car painted in black lacquer and eleven years later you could not tell how old the paint was. It was still perfect. His car was a show car and always trailered.
Just my .02
Luis!!Canadian70SS

Hmmmm.Thats what I heard Luis. Decisions,decisions.........

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Dean Ciampi
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 MY LS6 CHEVELLE (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)

Dean,

I am considering same, however, and in my opinion, lacquer, when done correctly, is still the best looking paint job available. If I can't find someone to spray lacquer for me I'll do it myself.

I have a ten year old lacquer paint job on my car now, aside from a few nicks here and there the paint looks as good as the day it was painted. If the car isn't going to see much harsh sun and inclement weather, the lacquer will hold up for many years, if not for the life of the car.

All BC/CC, urethane or whatever - I find to be thicker in appearance and not as smooth and glass like as lacquer, yes it is definitely more durable but just not the same. I find most people don't want to paint lacquer due to the additional labor involved.

Just my opinion.

Rich

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70 SS - L34
Member # 442
www.chevelles.com/showroom/richr1 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/richr1)

http://www.my70ss.com

Just to add my two cents,(maybe I watch too
many cars shows on Speedvision). Wouldn't bringing a car back to factory standard's,
like the '67 Corvette on Dream Car Garage to, "No better, no worse" entitle it to a factory type lacquer paint replete with orange peel, under chassis overspray etc? I know when I'll
redo my 68 Camaro it would be the route I'd take, simply because it's the way it was and that's what I'm going for, and the car will alway's be garaged.

decisions....

thanks
joe

Good point Rich.I am not concerned with the durability factor at all.The car will be in climate controled storage for 90% of the year only seeing a few car shows and cruises when good weather permits.By no means will my car be a trailer queen but I will only bring her out in the best of weather.

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Dean Ciampi
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 MY LS6 CHEVELLE (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)

My experience with my fathom blue '70. I was talked into the BC/CC. The prep, body work and paint were great BUT, to me it was not as good looking as the factory lacquer. After 15 years of good weather weekend driving the paint only has a couple of chips and still looks great. The clear coat is hard as rocks and difficult to get that no scratch shine but with the right products it can come close to lacquer shine.

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Steve Strasemeier (70SS 396, Fathom Blue/White Stripes)

I was a "gotta be lacquer" guy once too but this time around I had little choice. I couldn't find anyone (qualified) to shoot lacquer the way I want done. Keep in mind, lacquer isn't what it used to be due to EPA regulations of the contents of the paint itself and exposure of lacquer thinner to the atmosphere (destroys ozone). Modern lacquer is not anywhere as glassy as it used to be.

I still don't think my current paint job (finished in June 2000) looks as good as a lacquer job of 15-20 years ago, but it looks as good or better than modern lacquer jobs and it will be much more durable. This is my 2nd full restoration of this car and the first show-winning paint job was lacquer so I do know what I'm talking about. Lacquer, even when garaged and waxed, will not last in excellent condition for many years (though it can be repolished a few times if it is thick enough).

BC/CC is your best bet all the way around. Just take a look at how it can look, these shots show the reflective quality of a well done BC/CC job:
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/photoshootcapsfrontpass.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8627/photoshootfrontpass.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8627/finishedfrontpass.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8627/malibuss.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8627/rearwithtrim.jpg
You can also see many more pictures including pictures of my old lacquer paint job and current paint in various stages of completion on my restoration site listed in my signature line.


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Rich's 1965 Malibu SS Restoration Project Progress Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/)
1:18 scale diecast car Detailing by Scooter (http://www.amhost.com/scooter/)

Well-said, Rich, and I must say that the car looks absolutely gorgeous! Dean, you have to admit that his photos are mighty convincing.

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Rainer Seitz
Vancouver, WA
Team Chevelle Gold #50

'68 SS396 (soon to be for sale!)
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
'70 Malibu convertible 350/300hp
rseitz@chevelles.com

Rich,
Your car looks gorgeous!Very convincing indeed Rainer.This will probably be the hardest descision I will make with my restoration.As Rich has stated I probably will be forced to go with BB/CC for the lack of a good quality lacquer job.

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Dean Ciampi
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 MY LS6 CHEVELLE (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)

I have done alot of BC/CC jobs as well as laquer. It is True that the Autum gold in BC/CC will look different than laquer. There's no getting around that. National show judges will know. Now, if your painting a solid color (No Metalic), then you could use a solid urethane and nobody could tell the difference. Nobody! Even solid colors in a clear coat are hard to tell from laquer or straight urethane, IF they are sanded and buffed to perfection. There are paint manufacturers in Hemmings that will mix your laquer color to the original formula and will be as close as you can possibly get. I remember painting my friend's Autum Gold 70 SS three different times in 1979 and the color differed each time. So many variables contribute to slight changes in color such as mixing, materials, primer underneath, application techniques, hunidity, spray equipment, number of coats of paint, and color sanding and buffing. you can spend $10,000 on a resorative laquer paint job and it might be a different shade than an original also. Paint shades varied right from the factory! Look up any paint chip book and see the different variations in colors. From Sept to Dec maybe the color was darker than from Jan to March. I hope this sheads some more light on all of the discussions above. The Maroon L79 is drop dead gorgeous and you can bet your bottom dollar that NO Chevelle ever rolled off the dealer's floor with paint that good!

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Triple Black 69 SS 396

For comparison here are more pictures of my car when it was nearly new in 1966 and with the previous show-winning lacquer paint. The 1966 photos are rather grainy (scanned from 35mm slides) but you can tell it was still rather well painted, smooth and shiny (nothing like now I'm sure). I did see the original paint when I got the car in 1981 and while it was weathered it was well applied and really smooth.

1966:
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/chevellecirca1965front.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/chevellecirca1965rear.jpg

Old lacquer (about 1985/86):
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/chevelleartshot.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/magsfront.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/magsrear.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/show3front.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/show3rear.jpg

I hope this doesn't confuse things even more. It's hard to tell from pictures, but I would say my current BC/CC is as shiny as my old lacquer job, it's just thicker looking and has a different quality to the metalic than the lacquer had. It cost a lot more in 2000 than that old lacquer job did in 1984 too!


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Rich's 1965 Malibu SS Restoration Project Progress Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/)
1:18 scale diecast car Detailing by Scooter (http://www.amhost.com/scooter/)

[This message has been edited by Rich-L79 (edited 09-19-2000).]

A good quality bb/cc is the way to go IMO. My 67 is a dupont bb/cc along with $7000 in prep work, and it's just awsome. I'll post some pictures when the car is 100% complete. Was almost done when I had to take it all apart, again when some guy in a truck backed into it while parked. $1800 in damage, but the real pisser is i have not had the time to finsh all the little things. expect pics in a cuppla months..



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Thomas (AKA Hot66ss)
66 Super Sport
67 Malibu Daily Driver
Aces Member 2380
Team Chevelle member #262
members.aol.com/chvellss (http://members.aol.com/chvellss) <-- Under Temporary Permanent Construction Just Like My 66

What problems does lacquer have? I thought that if GM used it, it's good enough for me. And if it's taken care of well, it'll last a long time so I am undecided about having painting my car in it. I would just stick some gravel guards/mud flaps on my car to guard the fenders.

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1970 Chevy El Camino (Custom) Non-SS
Green Mist & Silver w/Green Vinyl Top
350ci/300HP 4bbl & Factory Dual Exhaust
TH-350 - 2.73 Posi Rear
Factory PS, PB, PW, A/C
Originally Burlington, NC Car - Sold at Carpenter's Chevrolet in Durham, NC
My El Camino Home Page - www.dreamelectric.com (http://www.dreamelectric.com)

"Oh my stars! There's that black car again! Everybody get in the house, now!"

The lacquer that GM used is no longer available. In fact no new auto maker is using lacquer anymore and hasn't for many years.

Good (old) lacquer contained lead as one of it's ingredients. Lead helps the paint flow (somehow) and allows the paint to be smooth in application and even better for wet sanding and polishing. With the EPA allowing less and less lead or even no lead in ANY paint, substitue materials have been added over the years. The problem is these materials don't quite create the same kind of paint and modern lacquer doesn't quite work as well as the paints that were available years ago. And with better, more modern paints available paint manufacturers have very little interest in trying to perfect the "new lacquer". Why should they pour development and production money into a product that can't compare in quality or durability to their other products.

Even if good "old" lacquer formulations could be used a lacquer paint job would never last as long as a quality paint job with more modern materials. Lacquer never actually finishes drying completely until it flakes off the car and blows away in a cloud of dust. The reason lacquer paints age (get dull, crack, check, peel off) is because the paint is continuing to cure and when it cures it shrinks. This affect can take many, many years but it will ALWAYS occur no matter how well protected the paint is with garages, covers and expensive waxes.

The modern BC/CC mixtures (the best ones) are two part mixes including a catalyst. This catalyst cures the paint chemically internal to itself. This method does not cause the paint to shrink and occurs much quicker (a month or two). Since the paint does not shrink once cured, it will not crack or check. It can be damaged, but it is much, much more durable. It is like protective shell on the metal that unless abused will remain intact for decades.

One down side to BC/CC is that it can be more challenging to repair damage to the finish such as chips and scratches and have the end result invisible than it was to make such repairs on relatively fresh lacquer. But any shop that can apply a quality BC/CC paint job should also be adept at repairing the same finish if need be.

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Rich's 1965 Malibu SS Restoration Project Progress Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/)
1:18 scale diecast car Detailing by Scooter (http://www.amhost.com/scooter/)

Hey Rich, nice car. Who painted it? How did you learn so much about paint? Have you ever painted with laquer or urethane?

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Triple Black 69 SS 396

I've done my share of painting on frames, suspension parts, undercarriages, etc. but never for body work.

I practically lived at the body shop while my car was in there. It's never enough for me to know that a paint job looks good, I need to know how it is applied and worked. I like knowing all the technical aspects. My body man and his wife (she was a wealth of knowledge) answered any and all of my questions throughout the process. I also closely supervised every step of progress of the bodywork and paint. Needless to say, this bodyshop is run by folks who know what customer service is all about. In his own words, "If you're paying me this much for this work you have every right to stop by as much as you want and ask all the questions you want." In the beginning I had tried to talk him into doing lacquer and he gave me quite an education on that topic. That education continued through the whole process.

The shop is AutoKraft of Lincoln, Nebraska. He gets jobs from both coasts and has over 60 magazine feature cars to his credit. He should have one more before long since an auto journalist did a photo shoot on my car about a month ago.



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Rich's 1965 Malibu SS Restoration Project Progress Page (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/8627/)
1:18 scale diecast car Detailing by Scooter (http://www.amhost.com/scooter/)

Thanks for all your help Rich and everybody else.Its great to get opinions from guys with so much knowledge!!!!!

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Dean Ciampi
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 MY LS6 CHEVELLE (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)