I am looking for a cheap set of iron heads. From the flow numbers I have seen the Sportsman's outflow on the intake side, while the Eagles (200cc) out flow on the exhaust. The motor is a 383, solid cam Lunati 401A6LUN (243/251, 0.518/0.530), 10:1 CR, Edelbrock RPM intake and a mechanical Holley 750.

What do you guys think? I have heard the quality on the Sportsman's can be pretty shabby. I have seen Dart's new series which claims 10% better flow, and thoughts on those?

Thanks
Steve

I have a set of SP II's I haven't tried yet. I have heard good and bad but I will have them gone thru at the machine shop because I bought them used. I have never heard anything bad about Dart ever!.

I use sportsman II's, i bought them bare, used my own parts and did a valve job and bowl work so that i know the work is accurate.

I'm very happy with my ported SP II's. I never ran them without porting. However, since I haven't use any other aftermarket heads, I can't say which is better. If I had it to do again, I'd go with AFR's.

They're both decent heads with a basic cleanup. The nitrous guys seem to like them for some reason.

Thanks guys. What about the 215cc Eagles? The car will mostly be dual purpose, but it's not my daily driver so I can go pretty wild.

Thanks again,
Steve

I think the 215's are too big and will cost you a lot of lower end torque. Plus you would have to rpm the engine more than a 383 likes to take advantage of them. Stay with 200cc or smaller.

180 or 200cc would be fine, i use 200cc heads with a bowl blend.

i have the sp11s on a 383 with some porting i have no complaints with these heads.:D

i think the 215 would be good, with your cam you must be spinning it to 6500/6800 rpm ,i know i will run dart pro 1 s 215 on my 383 with simular cam,and i would have went with a vic jr for sure,i assume you have the right gears and stall for your app,just my 2cents

oops :clonk:

The Dart Platinum 200cc's would be my choice. I feel the Darts are a nicer head out of the box & the new ones are supposed to be even nicer as cast.
If you are going to get them ported it's probably a toss-up.

215's are too big for a basically 6000 RPM 383" engine.

Thanks again guys. Anybody know what the difference between the Platinum's and regulars are? Are the ports actually better or are the just cast better. I planned on cleaning up which ever heads I bought. The spII's are suppose to work a lot better cleaned up. By that I mean, stream line the guides and open the bowls up, polish exhaust side and chambers. If the platinum are just cleaned up regular Eagles I can do that myself and save a buck or two.

Thanks
Steve

Reguarless of what you buy, have a reputable machinist do a valve job on them. Production valve jobs arent what i would want in a Performance engine.

Good choice on the 200cc heads, check out my engine combination which is similar to yours:
385"
242/248 dur .050" solid flat tappet 108LSA, installed at 104 degrees.
Proform bodied 750dp Holley
RPM intake
Sportsman II iron heads (bowl blend)
9.8:1 compression
Headers with 1-5/8" Primaries, 3" merge collector

My engine runs out of steam at 6800 rpms, and really starts pulling at around 3000rpms-3500rpms
Went 11.60 blowing off the tires in at the time a 3260lbs car
Went 1.55 in the 60ft when hooking at 3310lbs and a 10" ATI converter with 4.10 gears.

And More RPMS along with Quicket ETs is a cam Change away.

Just to give you an idea of what your capable of with Quality Machine work, along with the right parts and driveline.

This should be a nice set.

http://mikestarkcfm.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=sale&action=display&num=1110986241

ProToplines are a better head at a better price.

I have looked into the the Pro Toplines, but they don't seem to be all that they are cracked up to be. They may moves tons of air @ 0.600" valve lift and above, but that won't help with my cam. I could be wrong, but I have never read about any problems with the Dart heads.

Thanks
Steve

I looked into them all when i was shopping. I ended up with Protoplines 180cc. I heard a lot of people complaining about smoking after a few thousand miles on the Sportsmans. I think whatever you choose you should get them checked out by a machine shop before you install them.

I looked into them all when i was shopping. I ended up with Protoplines 180cc. I heard a lot of people complaining about smoking after a few thousand miles on the Sportsmans. I think whatever you choose you should get them checked out by a machine shop before you install them.
I'll second that smoking after a couple hundred miles. I ended up putting new seals and bronze guides in. If i had to do it again i would spend the extra couple hundred and by the canfield aluminum heads. I regret to this day not going with the aluminum heads for just a little more.

Think I have woken the beast. The Canfield's are only a $120 more, so it seems to make sense. Aluminum and they flow a lot better.

Thanks guys,
Steve

No problems with my sportsmans after a couple thousand miles and a season of racing and driving to/from all the dragstrips in Jersey (island, atco, etown)

If i have a problem, it will be a good excuse to get them ported by Parsons and Myers :D
Brian

I run Dart Iron Eagle 180's, no problems to report. I am very happy with them.

My Dart IE 200/49's are at the machine shop right now. Hope to have some results in a couple months.

yeah, you read that right, 49 cc chambers :)

i have both type heads on two 406s and they run the same number or very little difference. the iron eagles do have bronze guides instead of steel guides that the sportsman have.im guessing but the nitros guys like them because of the 3/4 inch decks on the heads they are heavy also.i shatterd a piston in one of the motors and figured the head would have to be replaced but thanks to the heavy decks the head was milled and still running.the heads were worth about 4 tenths over the 186 casting gm heads.will be trying the arfs 210s real soon

http://www.tristatecylinderhead.com/

I bought my Protoplines Iron Lightnings from Tri-State for $637 for the pair to my door. 200cc,72cc chambers,angle plug,screw-in studs,2.05/1.6 I/E,and guideplates.I couldn't beat the deal, and they have to flow better than my old stocker 400 heads.
I did a search on AFR 195Al. street heads and Pro's 200steel heads, and found flow numbers to be very close. I have seen some posts for flow numbers and I can't say whats true and whats not. I mostly went with the Factory numbers and everyone inflates some.

Wow, that sounds like a good deal. Where did you find the flow numbers on their site?

Don't ignore the exhaust when looking at flow numbers . . . one of the rags just did an dyno flog article on all the Vortec heads. The new 205cc port Vortec barely beat out the old 170cc Vortec even though it had roughly 20cfm more intake flow. The exhaust port is weak on these heads and severely limited power production in my opinion.

The Sportsman II heads need exhaust work to really perform IMO. The old Dart Iron Eagles could use a little touch up on both the intake and exhaust . . . the new Dart Platinums look real good on paper but I haven't seen them or worked on a set yet.

Flow numbers came from AFR and Protopline sites.

Flow numbers came from AFR and Protopline sites.
=
The AFR numbers are spot on in most cases.
Brodix are normally pretty conservative.
The Pro numbers are close at about .6 but the low lift numbers which are the ones you should be concerned with ain't even close.
This is on more than one set of heads on the same bench under the same conditions,,,
This is from an older post I did for someone a year or so ago.
Here's the numbers on the 200cc Pro's.
For info, the Pro's intake runner actually measured 207cc's on this set.
The only issues I had with the Pro's is I had to rehone the guides which meant redoing the
seats :(

As you can see, the Pro's ain't a bad head for the money.
The Brodix RR was before the CNC chamber option

AFR 210------Brodix200RR ----- 200Pro-measured207
.050-30/25 ------- 32/27 ------- 28/23
.100-61/54 ------- 64/52 ------- 60/52
.200-126/106 ----- 113/91 ------ 114/100
.300-180/150 ----- 168/135 ----- 165/137
.400-235/191 ----- 220/165 ----- 212/160
.500-273/213 ----- 249/181 ----- 244/176
.600-278/226 ----- 268/191 ----- 268/184
.700-287/232 ----- 279/196 ----- Not tested, (the flow stalled)
--
New Brodix RR numbers after just the CNC chamber option, no other changes!!
.050 - 34/26
.100 - 67/63
.200 - 134/114
.300 - 194/164
.400 - 243/181
.500 - 266/189
.600 - 270/193
.700 - 279/195
All tests at 28", radius inlet, 4.155 bore, no pipe


The Pro 200 advertised numbers are:
.100 - 71/57
.200 - 146/101
.300 - 204/157
.400 - 250/177
.500 - 261/186
.600 - 268/190
.700 - 276/195

The reason you are finding "deals" on the Pro's is they are no longer in business, they are now owned by Comp & most places are trying to get rid of inventory..
They had all kinds of problems with their heads in the last year or so regarding quality & it was impossible to send them back.
Hopefully the quality or the Pros (nor RHS) will be back to what it was when this head started life as it was usually pretty damn good,,, but this seems to have changed,,, :mad:


When you find a set of complete heads that seem almost to good to be true price wise it should raise a couple of flags at least in my opinion,,,,

You cannot take the time to check guides, check the valve job & fix it if necessary & install a quality set of valves, springs, studs & plates & sell the things for $650.
Consider the price of just the bare heads & add the price of decent parts alone.
Now add into this the time to fix what is normally wrong with the heads & you decide :(

I could put these together for about this & sell them & make a decent profit but I won't,,, I don't like people upset with what I do & it's hard enough when you take the time to do it right & use quality parts to keep on top of this crap let alone selling heads with $2.00 valves & $15 springs & calling them "performance heads" :angry:


And to quote Bill K,,, "just my opinions",,,

Wolfplace,I can understand what your saying but can't compare the 210's to 200's. My heads were assembled by Tri-State. I can agree with you on the parts "not top of the line" but my car isn't a braket racer,sportsman, or anything of the like. Its a street/strip car for weekend fun. Even the best parts break.

I would like to know where those numbers are from,and were those all "box stock" ?

You'd be down about 20/25HP with 1.625 headers. They don't work on 383 inches. We see 20/40HP difference on the dyno with 1.750/1.875 tubes. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

Wolfplace,I can understand what your saying but can't compare the 210's to 200's. My heads were assembled by Tri-State. I can agree with you on the parts "not top of the line" but my car isn't a braket racer,sportsman, or anything of the like. Its a street/strip car for weekend fun. Even the best parts break.

I would like to know where those numbers are from,and were those all "box stock" ?
=
What do you mean you can't compare 210's to 200's?
The 200 pro's were actually 207cc's & the Brodix 200's actually outflowed the AFR 210's to about .500 with the CNC chambers which is the numbers you would normally be concerned with in most street deals.

Not saying anything against Tri State, don't even know of them just stating my opinions regarding what it takes to make sure the heads are somewhere near correct before leaving the shop & this entails more than sticking parts in them & sending them out the door.

The numbers are from me. except the advertised Pro numbers which came directly off their site about a year ago.
My bench, same bore, same type radius,, & yes, out of the box except the Pro's which I had to redo as the guides were too tight & after you hone the guides you must redo the valve job.
And again, in casre you missed it, the 200cc pro's measured 207.
Ok,,, make that if you care about quality of your work you should redo the valve job,,, :sad:

Now, if you are talking about the 170cc or so Pro Action street replacment head, this is not the Iron Lightning & none of this applies as I can do these all day long for about that price assuming I do't have to redo the complete head which I ain't gonna do for free & I won't send them out if I find something I don't like :)

I agree completely with that, and i did a valve job on my brand new out of the box heads and valves prior to assembling the heads. Sportsman II heads.

New, doesnt mean its concentric. I've pulled a vacuum on new, assembled pro topline heads and found that none of the valves were completely seating.

The problem with the production environment is that they dont let the valves "spark out" on the grinder, and they end up non-concetric, the seats are rarely concentric as well.

This post won't die. :D Thanks for all the info guys.

Steve

I have a set of Sportsman II's I bought with a 400 SBC and they put my compression too high for pump gas.
They are low mileage heads that I had the local machinist check out and touch up the valves, seats. He said they were fine and confirmed the low mileage history I was told.

I am planning to buy a set of heads from Mike, so if you are intersted in a set of Sportsman II's, email me...

jakeshoe@hotmail.com

I have been very happy with my dart heads. Installed in 2000 and still going strong.

I agree with eric68, wolfplace, and gofast: Save enough money to buy AFR or Brodix, get the smallest chambers and select the proper pistons to get the compression you want. Get pistons with a reverse deflector or a D-cup dish, not the kind that have a dished out area all over the piston top. Remember to shoot for about 1 point higher on compression with aluminum heads. ( Will depend on camshaft. You need to get the cam grinders recommendation for compression needed.) Those heads will give you top performance, you can fix them if they break, and they will be worth something if you want to sell them. I had Dart II's on my 406 and was disappointed with them. I asked Joe Sherman if porting could make my Darts work as well as AFR 200 and he said it "couldn't be done". That made up my mind!

If you buy AFR, S+S may make a header that fits. I would call them first. AFR recommends Kooks but they are about $1000. If you order AFR 210 with solid roller cam springs, you will have to make some kind of funky washer to fit in the center bolt hole. The spring seats overlap the bolt recess. I used studs and 12 point nuts on mine and that made fitting that spot easier. I don't know how you could use a 5/8" head bolt in that spot.

Keep your quench at the .030 to .040", hone with a deck plate, find a good machinist, ask people in your area who does good block work. If you really want an iron head, Ron's Porting in St. Charles,MO was doing CNC Dart Iron Eagle a few years ago. I don't know anything about the numbers on those heads, but Ron has a reputation for doing good head work. Maybe a phone call wouldn't hurt. Good luck with your project.

I just had this discussion with my engine builder. Was asking him for a small block friend.
My guy uses the Iron Eagle 200 heads because they race stock cars, and they have but a few head choices. All have to be iron. They are not allowed to port them, just a careful valve job.
At present they are right around 600 hp at 9.5:1 cr. Of course this is a drysump very trick setup....many hours on the dyno. But still, that speaks highly of the head potential.
He felt the new platinum series would be even better.
He also said that competitors who have tried Pro Topline etc, make considerably less power, despite the fact that these other heads flow more air. A good tell about airflow numbers eh?
Ron

=
The AFR numbers are spot on in most cases.
Brodix are normally pretty conservative.
The Pro numbers are close at about .6 but the low lift numbers which are the ones you should be concerned with ain't even close.

As you can see, the Pro's ain't a bad head for the money.
The Brodix RR was before the CNC chamber option

AFR 210------Brodix200RR ----- 200Pro-measured207
.050-30/25 ------- 32/27 ------- 28/23
.100-61/54 ------- 64/52 ------- 60/52
.200-126/106 ----- 113/91 ------ 114/100
.300-180/150 ----- 168/135 ----- 165/137
.400-235/191 ----- 220/165 ----- 212/160
.500-273/213 ----- 249/181 ----- 244/176
.600-278/226 ----- 268/191 ----- 268/184
.700-287/232 ----- 279/196 ----- Not tested, (the flow stalled)
--
New Brodix RR numbers after just the CNC chamber option, no other changes!!
.050 - 34/26
.100 - 67/63
.200 - 134/114
.300 - 194/164
.400 - 243/181
.500 - 266/189
.600 - 270/193
.700 - 279/195
All tests at 28", radius inlet, 4.155 bore, no pipe


The Pro 200 advertised numbers are:
.100 - 71/57
.200 - 146/101
.300 - 204/157
.400 - 250/177
.500 - 261/186
.600 - 268/190
.700 - 276/195



The AFR #s are higher for their new Eliminator line.

Here are the specs I have from AFR for the new 210s (which come with 75cc chambers):
Lift RaceReady In/Ex CompetitionCNC In/Ex
.2 139/110 147/120
.3 199/158 206/166
.4 249/192 257/214
.5 279/210 290/225
.6 295/220 301/229
.7 301/224 312/240

There's probably more info on their site.

If I ever get my 406 finished, I'll get y'all some numbers on GM's newly redesigned 225cc Bowtie Vortecs. We'll flow 'em before we bolt 'em down and send the engine to the dyno room.

The AFR #s are higher for their new Eliminator line.

Here are the specs I have from AFR for the new 210s (which come with 75cc chambers):
Lift RaceReady In/Ex CompetitionCNC In/Ex
.2 139/110 147/120
.3 199/158 206/166
.4 249/192 257/214
.5 279/210 290/225
.6 295/220 301/229
.7 301/224 312/240

There's probably more info on their site.
=
Mark,
Not real sure what it is you are trying to tell me
I am aware the new heads are better I have been selling them since they came out & have been a WD for AFR for many years

The above posts & tests are over 3 years old, look at the post dates of this thread
Plus these AFR heads are not even available any more.

I do not quote the numbers off of sites or in magazines except for comparsion to something I have tested
All the above tests were done in house by me on the same bench under the same conditions ;)
And again, over 3 years ago,,,,

If I ever get my 406 finished, I'll get y'all some numbers on GM's newly redesigned 225cc Bowtie Vortecs. We'll flow 'em before we bolt 'em down and send the engine to the dyno room.

I can help. I have many sets of these here.

1st version LG Runner Bowtie Vortec

Poored 216cc in / 81cc ex
Flowed on my bench @ 28" with radius entry and 4.030 fixture
2.02 / 1.57

100 63/48
200 137/108
300 201/147
400 246/169
450 263/176
500 272/180
550 276/182
600 278/182
650 282/185

2nd Version LG Runner Bowtie Vortec

Poored 218cc in / 77.5cc ex
Flowed on my bench @ 28" with radius entry and 4.030 fixture
2.02 / 1.57

100 72/45
200 149/95
300 211/137
400 252/152
450 266/155
500 275/161
550 281/161
600 285/161
650 290/160
700 292/155

Both sets had guides and valve job done before testing. As Mike pointed out valve jobs need to be done after setting guides right.

Tom

I think the 215's are too big and will cost you a lot of lower end torque. Plus you would have to rpm the engine more than a 383 likes to take advantage of them. Stay with 200cc or smaller.I agree. We have had a few 10 sec pump gas combos with ported edelbrock 170's, dart 200's, and sportsman II's both hyd RR, and sld, FT. I had a 406 with the dart 215's it was high strung, and a little soft on the bottom fo my taste.

For what its worth,I bought a set of Sportsman II's over a weekend when I had no choice,the price was right and it meant I wouldn't be walking to work on Monday.This went on a 355 with flattops and a fairly mild cam.With nothing more than the butt dyno to go by,the difference between before and after was amazing.Even with the big ports compared to the 882's that were on the motor it ran great.Just my .02

Ressurrected again!!

I hate mine. I'm going on my 3rd set of valve guides. The last set was teflon ones too. The umbrella ones they put on suck. The valve you could move back and forth so i had to spend more money and put bronze guides in and i bought these brand new. I could of got a nice set of afr's with what i have in these piles of junk.

Mr. Kelley, "may he rest in peace"!

pdq67

Pulled a set of fully ported WS 200 off a friends 383 Nova about a yr ago and stuck some box stock 195 AFR street port heads on, could not believe the difference in throttle response and power everywhere. Night and day.

He bought the WS as a brand new head that was professionally ported..customer never picked up, he could not pass up the $800 price tag, lesson learned.

Ive got a set od the Dart 215's on my 406 and I like 'em. They are the Platinums and seem to work pretty well with what Ive got. If I ever change Ill be looking into a set of Brodix or AFR's.

I have a set of SPII's I am going to run on a 383 build in my shop, not sure how they will perform yet though.

I can say what I know the Dart Iron Eagle 215's will do on a 385.
I used Cosworth 12.5:1 light weight dome pistons, light weight pro-mod 4340 Scat 6" rods, light weight Scat 4340 crank, internal balance, cam was a Reed custom grind 692 lift solid roller, super vic intake, 950HP alky carb, the motor turned 602HP at 6300RPM and 580TQ at (don't remember the RMP on that). The motor was a stump pulling power house.