I guess it's time to update about why the vendor policy is the way it is.

It's not our intention to allow weasels to get away with poor performance and lousy service, but it's certainly a delicate issue as to how best to handle it.

I've been working on a lot of upgrades for the site and it's taking far longer than expected. One of the items is a method of reviewing parts etc so they can be rated and comments (positive and negative) can be left by authorized users.

The way it is planned would be to allow someone who has been on the forums for XX days or XX posts to be able to participate. This should allow a cooling off period for those that might jump the gun and post out of anger before all the dust settles.
Members would be able to participate as we have all the contact information available.

Some of the vendor concerns have always been:

Who is really posting? As some remember we had a guy bash a parts supplier and it sounded really legit, after investigation it turns out the guy worked the counter at a competitor :eek:
damage done. No tidy recovery from that one.

It's usually one sided.
I get emails most every day concerning some aspect of buying and selling either here or ebay or elsewhere asking for help. After a series of emails the facts come out and they are rarely, if ever, as originally presented. The real info is somewhere in between.

This is a busy online forum and information travels fast and far within minutes and hours. It's not a magazine where the facts can be clarified and presented with time to spare, yet I've never seen any auto magazine post a list of 'do not deal withs' simply because it will turn into a huge legal mess.

I've been involved with rooms full of 'shiny black shoes' in the past over internet issues and would not recommend that to anyone. Only by keeping detailed records did it work out in my favor.

We have offered several times in the past to link to anyone here who wishes to create a website and host a list of companies who others deem are crooked. The offer still stands. Want to make a difference in the industry? Here is a golden opportunity.

We are not in a position to deal with incomplete information, non verified facts etc. I or anyone of us can sign up and post some very believable information about a company or individual that could do real damage.

My hat's off to all of those who post a warning topic without it turning nasty. smile.gif Providing enough details to make your point towards a well known company in "Buckbrush or wherever" and following it up via email to those who want more info usually works.
The one off postings by someone hitting all the sites to warn everyone in the world rarely hit the mark.

I hope this explains the direction we have to take.

Al
----
To the guy who got screwed over by the transport company, please send me the info via email for future use.

Al, I understand completely what you are talking about. I too wonder when people suddenly appear on this board bashing never to reappear. I enjoy this site and don't want to see it shutdown due to one persons post.

Originally posted by Al:


We have offered several times in the past to link to anyone here who wishes to create a website and host a list of companies who others deem are crooked. The offer still stands. Want to make a difference in the industry? Here is a golden opportunity.
Al,

I've been kicking around the idea of a supplemental forum to dicuss products and vendors. I'm just wondering about forum software and hosting. Any ideas or recommendations on that?
Thanks.

Al,
What about a site, not connected to Team Chevelle in any way, where you must get an anonymous username to vent about vendors, sellers, etc.

A link provided from TC as a courtesy? Or maybe not a lnk, just list the URL?

There are several anonymous boards out there to use.

Al,

eBay seems to deal with this in a way that appears to be fair. Both sides get to make a statement re the issue. But overall, a buyer has at least a sampling of others quality of experience with the vendor. The same could be done for a product.

Maybe this isn't the right answer. But we would all benefit from some manner of understanding of others experience with a product or vendor, even if it's just a + or - and the number of replies.

However, I certainly understand the difficulty of the issue and wish to express my appreciation for your efforts.

"What about a site, not connected to Team Chevelle in any way, where you must get an anonymous username to vent about vendors, sellers, etc.".............................................If you have any problem with a vendor or auction or whatever,why in the world would you like to stay "anonymous",which by its own name means you can say anything you want with no repercussions ?? Also to be fair make a forum where sellers can complain about buyers that dont pay or send bad checks,switch parts and try to get refunds,and just plain deadbeat time wasters etc..while yes i am a parts seller,it not always the sellers that are the bad guys,so lets keep it fair....

We will have the comments section for leaving feedback and ratings in the near future. It uses the + and - and requires valid registration. It really can't be anonymous if there is to be any credibility at all.
I think it will be a good solution to any transactions here on our site.

Ben, not sure what to recommend on the hosting. We have other servers which could be used but would rather not be involved.
you might find that some hosting agreements will state that it is not permitted. Shouldn't be hard to find a free spot with advertising or minimal fees.

Chuck, you are right, there are a lot of buyers who bail out on the seller and stick them with unsold items. I can imagine the turn-around if someone finds their name posted as a deadbeat, then they go ballistic on the seller and start posting all over the internet. I really don't see a win-win with this yet.

Originally posted by Al:


Ben, not sure what to recommend on the hosting. We have other servers which could be used but would rather not be involved.
you might find that some hosting agreements will state that it is not permitted. Shouldn't be hard to find a free spot with advertising or minimal fees.

I certainly wouldn't expect to have you guys be involved. That would defeat the purpose. You would definitely want as much insulation as possible.

I've looked a little into this and am trying to formulate what the costs would run, software-wise. Meanwhile, I'll do a little research and check out the legal aspect to be sure.

Al,

I guess my question is really how much space/storage would I need? I've been looking at something like this:

http://www.invisionzone.com/?packages

Al or anyone else have any suggestions?

s

Bottom line - the power of over 20,000 potential consumers in a limited market is pretty strong. I guess the question is how to insure it is wielded fairly once unleashed in an organized fashion.

However, so is the need to protect ourselves from those who use that limited product availability in a less than scrupulous, or mutually beneficial manner.

If done correctly, it's a win-win for the supplier and us as consumers. The fair and reasonable supplier has nothing to fear from a fair reasonable scrutiny. And we as the market have a responsibility to be, well, responsible.

One thing to consider is that now, there are no rules, checks or ballances. Our "no bashing" rule is only effective because we voluntarily observe it. I believe that same level of responsibility can and would be voluntarily applied to a vendor/product feedback forum. As a group, this is a pretty fair and reasonable group.

Just MHO.
/herb

I just got an Invision forum hosting account. The Vendor-Review forum should be up and running in a few days. graemlins/hurray.gif

I think a forum would work well for this sort of thing as long as a set of rules were applied, used and maintained. I feel the "no bashing" rule should still apply, if something happens between a vendor and buyer, simply state the facts and thats it, no tearing a vendor apart crap unless it turns out to be a vendor who is only out to rip people off. Also a reasonable amount of effort must be applied by the buyer to solidify the claim first. Meaning you must give a fair amount of time to the vendor to remedy the situation and the buyer must make reasonable effort to report to the vendor the problem.
As long as, we on this board, act as adults a forum of this type could work with no unfair business bashing happening.
Also the big suppliers such as Year 1 and others may benefit from a forum that rates how their parts fit and finish is in the real world as well. I'm sure many of the big suppliers can't test and check every part that goes through their doors, so a real world test would also help them maintain quality.
Well enough said, I think if it could be done appropriatly, everyone, vendors and buyers, would benefit from this type of forum.
Jeff

what i am posting is in no way promoting another web site,or lowgrading this one.one of my other hobbies are machineguns . these things are like all big purchase items and background checks for the seller and buyer is common.that is not what we need here. but they have a reccomended dealers list. these are the ones that have proven great guys to deal with. the others will post any information on the new guys that havent made it to the deal with lists. if you list somthing bad you will get an answer back from the dealer in question, stating both sides. if a dealer does not want to check in on a websight that is most likly there customer base, that is there loss. hey 20000plus registerd users . if i was a chevelle parts guy i would want public input and i could state an answer back if there was a problem. just my 2 cents worth

Vendor bashing/commenting is a tricky topic. In theory it could be a very good thing that would help members to resolve issues and grow vendors into better companies through customer feedback. In practice I don’t think it would work. I see a forum that would generate more controversy that it would solve.

Many retailers get their parts from the same few suppliers. How would you handle a complaint about a POS part from a retailer that in reality is the same one everyone sells? What about the experience of the buyer? Many aftermarket parts need some work to make them 100%, a new buyer may complain when an old-timer may realize what you get from cheap overseas parts.

I just think it is buyer beware. As often as you can you should deal with any of the reputable retails.

I don’t think this posting system is going to work anywhere near as well as it sounds in theory.

i would like to see a certian area set aside for complaints, that only the administration can read. if the problems keep showing up from several different people, from different areas . you know there is a true problem. let the dealer know they are x amount of negative feedback. and why. if they have a resaonable explanation then post it to the public. if no response then let the 20000 + registered readers know the sittuation. for an example check this web site out. www.subguns.com (http://www.subguns.com) then click on the board of inquiry. just an example

Originally posted by mike69ss:
Vendor bashing/commenting is a tricky topic. In theory it could be a very good thing that would help members to resolve issues and grow vendors into better companies through customer feedback. In practice I don’t think it would work. I see a forum that would generate more controversy that it would solve.

Many retailers get their parts from the same few suppliers. How would you handle a complaint about a POS part from a retailer that in reality is the same one everyone sells? What about the experience of the buyer? Many aftermarket parts need some work to make them 100%, a new buyer may complain when an old-timer may realize what you get from cheap overseas parts.

I just think it is buyer beware. As often as you can you should deal with any of the reputable retails.

I don’t think this posting system is going to work anywhere near as well as it sounds in theory. What you said about the parts is a big part of the reason I would like to see it happen. Now installation aside, if a few people all ordered new bumpers from the same vendor and they all showed up flaking or unpolished or whatever, it would be nice to be able to post that and let the vendor see that 20000+ people now know about it. If I were that vendor I would immediatly fix the problem and post on here as well that I fixed the problem.
Now the problem of installation I agree, diffrent levels of skills would have diffrent people complaining about things others may have found easy to do. Yet if a trim piece shows up and the mounting studs are not located correctly, that is something we should know about. Or holes drilled incorrectly or whatever.
Like I said earlier, a forum like this to work effectivly, could not allow bashing of vendors. It must be maintained as a respectable place to voice concerns, not air out every problem in the world. If this is done with respect to the vendor, it could work well and benefit everyone involved with our hobby. But if you allow members to say anything and disrespect vendors then a forum like this will only be looked down upon and treated with disrespect as well.
Jeff

I think that if you can get a complaints forum to work it would be a great thing - I just think it will have to go through a lot of growing pains

I like Mike’s Idea of having only the administer review the complaints. For now that would work but what if in the future you get an administrator that is not as honest and on the level as we currently have.

just checking in. Like I mentioned in the first post, we are putting together a rating and comment section for parts fairly soon.

I like the idea of a 'review board' with a few trusted members to oversee it and keep track of complaints. smile.gif If a pattern shows up it can be acted upon and the company notified and if necessary a warning placed on the site. kinda like a better business bureau for chevelle guys.

Originally posted by Al:


I like the idea of a 'review board' with a few trusted members to oversee it and keep track of complaints. smile.gif If a pattern shows up it can be acted upon and the company notified and if necessary a warning placed on the site. kinda like a better business bureau for chevelle guys. I like that idea too smile.gif

A good idea for a complaints forum would be present the initial posting in a survey type of format designed to ask questions like,(1) Who is the vendor (2) Type of product or Service (3) Did you get the correct part/service (4) Was it delivered on time (5) Was it delivered intact (6) Nature of your complaint (7) We you able to talk to a real person (8) Did you get a satisfactory resolution (9) Would you do business with this vendor again and (10) allow a limited free form text section for comments ... This is to cut down on the rambling type venting, but to get the facts out ... Then, subsequent posts/queries could follow the standard freeform text format. ... You might also require an agreement ( like a license ) that the post are accurate and truthful and also state that the opinions posted are not the position of the TC Admin group, but this forum is a avenue for review of product and vendor quality, services, and policies as experienced by TC patron who wish to share those experiences with other TC members... In conclusion, I hope I didn't ramble too much ...

I've got the vendor review board/forum almost ready to roll. I am still getting familiar with the software. ;) Right now it will be managed by myself and my brother. I've checked out the legal aspects and I've modified the initial registration disclaimer to include some more substantive disclaimers. I found some recent case law that was very helpful (these involved Ebay but were applicable).

I hope to be able to post the web address in the next couple of days so we can try it out. We'll give it a try and see how this grand experiment goes.

Ben. Let us know how you plan to make this work for authentication of users, verification of facts and such.
I know there are probably a number of guys with old broadaxes to swing from problems they had years ago.

A free for all.. well, be careful. If it was merely a matter of wording on the registration we would have done that ages ago, but it's not.

Thanks for all your hard work on this! More than once I've wanted to order from a company and not knowing anything about this, it's risky. I look forward to learning more, and also realize every situation can be different and just because you had a bad transaction doesn't mean the next person will. It's a learning process!

Al,

A little off subject, sorry.

Lately, I have noticed a few posts pop up with guys finding build sheets that didnt belong to thier car. Or a Chevelle engine block or whatever.

Some wondered if there was a way to see if the car the sheets or parts came off of still exists. I thought it might be an idea to come up with a section where one could post a Chevelle build sheet or numbers engine to see if anyone may have the car. Is this possible? I understand we have about 10k members here so it makes sense to me. Perhaps its a dumb idea.


Chris.

The build sheet found in my car does not belong to it. I would be glad to forward it if there was some way of doing that. Also, I'd like it if there was a way to see if my build sheet was out there. Sorta like a lost and found for numbers matching stuff.

As for the vendor bashing posts, I'm all for doing something. It would be nice to know when you are about to deal with a vendor with less than stellar credentials. I find the "happy with so and so" posts much more helpful. I figure that so many guys have already bought the stuff I want so I just go where they reccomend. 3 angry guys are much more likely to post than 3000 satisfied ones.

My personal standard is not whether or not they made a mistake but how they deal with it that counts.

Why not just post a survey? Most of us have dealt with the various vendors. Ask for the favorites and let the results speak for themselves. If a vendor doesn't like his place on the list, let him ask what he needs to do to get our business or he can stay at the bottom of the list.

Example: I want to buy a digital camera. At Yahoo I click on "shopping" and "digital cameras". What pops up? That's right! a list of the Top 5 selling cameras complete with reviews from VERIFIED purchasers AND a rating system for the vedors. I've found this to be very helpful.

You must admit, 20000 registered users is A LOT! That carries a lot of weight in a limited market like ours. Good vendors deserve to be recognised and the shady ones need to be culled from the herd. Do not under-estimate the power this website wields. I'm just one guy and I'll spend at least $1000 on resto parts alone this year and 3 times that on aftermarket/performance stuff.

The last thing I wanna do is spend a bunch of time and money returning parts etc. I want the best available part, the right part, the first time. If it costs a little more, fine.

Here's something that may help weed out false negative reporting. In order to file a negative complaint you must submit proof of purchase for the bad part/parts. I know I keep every receipt for my stuff. The receipt will also show your name which should match your registration information on this site.

I would gladly go through the work of taking a digital pic of my receipt if it would help prevent someone else from a bad experience.

I have posted several replies to threads regarding Ground Up relating to my experience with them, which was not positive. Strangely, those threads got removed. Same with the latest one within the last week or so. I can't find it anyway. I'm out in the open. I've been here awhile. Al- you emailed me early last summer when this started for me. As I recall you were going to try to find out why what happened to me happened. Anyways, I never heard back. No big. I know you are very busy. I am just being honest in my posts about my experience with GU. Granted, maybe I am totally an exception, but it happened to me and it was not pleasant and I will not do business with them. I gave them a chance to make it right and they did not. It seems anytime this topic comes up and I relate my experience, poof, it's gone. I don't think I have been accusatory or unfair in any way. I have not made any false statements. I can back up everthing that happened to me. I realize that GU is a major sponsor for this site. I'm just trying to be the person my father taught me to be, fair and honest. Sorry if I rambled.

Trust me, your not the lone ranger in that department! Sure glad I have other choices.


Rocky

That's not what this post is about graemlins/clonk.gif

Al,

This could even go as far as the vendor's receiving a "Team Chevelle - Gold Seal of Approval" that they can place on their home page. I know Ground Up is "our" sponsor and they should get the first one....if they deserve it. But, we buy from all differeent suppliers adn if there is an exceptional one out there, we should all know about it, just as we want to know about one that has issues in customer service, quality, price or whatever the case..

Just a $.10 thought.

Mike


Mike

If a ‘review board’ is started it will have to be done in a way that will not have even the inference of a conflict of interest. What I’m getting at is will review board members have a connection to site management where the site is taking funds from sponsors?

I still think this idea is great in theory but hard to put into practice

Mike

Originally posted by mike69ss:
If a ‘review board’ is started it will have to be done in a way that will not have even the inference of a conflict of interest. What I’m getting at is will review board members have a connection to site management where the site is taking funds from sponsors?

I still think this idea is great in theory but hard to put into practice

Mike I have a Vendor Review board almost ready to open up to you guys (still working out the kinks--should be ready by the beginning of March). It will be totally personally financed so there will be no issues of conflict of interest or loyalties. I'm still waiting on some input from some other people I've contacted regarding implementation.

Originally posted by Dean:
That's not what this post is about graemlins/clonk.gif I know Dean, but with this subject I just can't seem to help myself.


Rocky

Dean, we have a product evaluation forum on the bike site I go to, good and bad. The site is much smaller than this but works very well. If everyone posted at least the good stuff it would be a big help. Just my .02

Originally posted by 69ssmike:
Dean, we have a product evaluation forum on the bike site I go to, good and bad. The site is much smaller than this but works very well. If everyone posted at least the good stuff it would be a big help. Just my .02 What I meant was this thread is about creating something like that, not a thread to post complaints about vendors.

Ya I know, the bike site is a lot smaller but we don't seem to have problems with it. Is this legal??? Like I said it is not just a bashing forum either, good reviews also.We also have a E-bay auction forum too!! You would have to sign up for the site to see all the stuff, it's free and only takes a minute. http://www.v4hondabbs.com/
Just trying to throw out some ideas is all.