I`m building a `70 S.S. Clone, and purchased a flapper hood from Goodmark,there not all ther cracked up to be, that said. Is all the flapper equipment shown in the catalogs nessary? A friend told me that he once owned a car with Cowl Induction, and all I neded was the flapper door and vaccume canister, that when installed in the open position,and the engine started the vaccume would close the flap, and when under power and the loss of vaccume it would open. This sounds right to me, but what is the inner door for? is this to keep out water from your air filter? I want it to function, and am not interested in "origional". Are there other options for the Cowl Induction air cleaner kits? I realy dont want the snorkel on my air cleaner. Thanks for any advice.

Yes all you need is the top door and vacum pod, On one of my cars I have removed the inner door and solenoid, its been that way for years with no problem

stan, you are right about the outer flapper and how it operates, but that's a good point about the snorkel. I was wondering, when the cowl flappers are shut, the only place the engine has to breath from is that snorkel. does the snorkel provide enough air to the engine? it is a very small hole. if I have a 500hp 468 wouldn't that be hurting me? does anyone have any cowl induction upgrade ideas? maybe we could cut the snorkel shorter. as it gets shorter the opening gets larger. and why would you ever want that inner flapper door shut? wouldn't it be better to run it open all the time? like cortez.


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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
. . _________ . . . . . .. _________
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(OO[=====]OO) {_______________|
.{}.............{}.....O...............O....
1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 03-19-2002).]

Just thinking out loud, but, rather than cutting the snorkel tube (which would be very noticeable) why not drill holes in the horizontal leg of the ring that the seal attaches to? Seems like this would allow more air in and the holes wouldn't be readily visible. And if you decided to go back to stock, you'd only have to replace the ring and not the whole air cleaner base.

And I agree totally on the subject of the inner door. I plan on installing one but keeping it in the open position by not powering the solenoid. I guess, just to replicate the correct look but with less hassle.

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Mark
1970 SS454 LS6 (nom)
TH400/4.10 posi
Formerly Cranberry Red now War Bonnet Yellow
-------------------------
"Fight Apathy - the disease no one cares about."

[This message has been edited by markcord (edited 03-19-2002).]

Good idea about the hole locations. but are they necessary? i see that it could not hurt but will it help? i guess you need to figure out what cfm is being used when the cowl door is not open, and that is how much area needes to be available for the carb untill the engin reaches a point when the door opens. with out all the calculations, if i measure the diameter of the primaries and calculate the area of both of them, make sure that i have the same open area in the breather cover. that sounds good, then when the secondaries open up the vacumn dropes, the doors open and then the air has no restrictions. does that make sence to anyone? but as far as leaving the inner door open, that probably takes care of all that i just mentioned above. but, can anyone tell what the purpose of that door is?

I would imagine that the inner door does help keep the weather out. I mean, theoretically you could get rain driven in through the cowl screen and the flapper door when the car is parked and not running. Other than that, it seems pretty redundant to me.

Also another consideration on the size of the hole would be the velocity of the air. That is, that the smaller hole in the snorkel may actually help to increase airflow by increasing it's velocity. Kinda like water passing through a pipe. When it goes into a smaller pipe with the same flow, pressure (and velocity) increases. Just don't ask me how to figure it out! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

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Mark
1970 SS454 LS6 (nom)
TH400/4.10 posi
Formerly Cranberry Red now War Bonnet Yellow
-------------------------
"Fight Apathy - the disease no one cares about."

I am a fraid i have to dissagree on both subjects. i dont belive sugnifigant water, if any, could get all the way back there. if that were it then they would not allow the flaper to open in the rain. i appreciate the suggestion , i just cant buy that. so i still am searching for why the flapper is there. the second thing about the volicity increasing. i understand what you are saying but it does not help in this case. you want high volicity in the intake runners and as the air passes through the carb but high volicity through the snorkel is just going to be slowed down once it opens up into the area befor it passes throught the air filter. so the shorkel therefore is just being a restrictor. so you are right that the volicity increases through the snorkel. but in this case its a bad thing.
i just figured it out! if the hole were any bigger then it would not get the full effect of the cowl induction when it opened. when the doors open up the forced air would go backwards out the snorkel and reduce the effective pressure going into the card. that has to be it. ithe ideal set up would be to have a door block of the snorkel when the cowl doors open so you get direct pressure with out loosing it through the snorkel. what do you think? gm must have done this to sacrifice some low end breathing to make the most of wide open throtel when the flaps were open. now to think of a way to block the snorkel at the same time the cowl flaps open http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
. . _________ . . . . . .. _________
.../___---___\ . . ____/|__|__\___\
(OO[=====]OO) {_______________|
.{}.............{}.....O...............O....
1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

I guess what i'm saying is that if your going to leave the inner flapper off or open, then you should block off your snorkel or you are just loosing high pressure air out it like a sive. that makes sence to me. but if you are going to leave both doors function like stock, the optimum set up would be to open up the size of the snorkel inlet and automaticaly block it off when the cowl doors open. you could put rubber flapper valves around the air cleaner housing like we have in the respiratores. they allow you to breath fresh air in, then when you blow out the flapper closes and a flapper in the other direction opens to allow you exhale go through the filter. you could put a few of these around so that the total area opened is meeting the requirements of the engin until the cowl doors open. then the high pressure rushes in and presses the little flappers shut, taking full advantage of the cowl induction. also a side benifit is that placing these little flapper valves around the air cleaner housing would even distribute the air flow to the air cleaner as opposed to it rushing thru one spot where the snorkel is. well.. well. sound right to me .

stan, i am sorry to dominate your topic, this is something i have been pondering for a while. i hope we can hash this out and come up with something good. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif we need to find out why the inner door is there at all. and i dont think its weather related. i am going to develope my flapper valve idea on an air cleaner.

basicly i'm just talking to myself i guess. but i looked at a 85 caprice with a 305. wow it has a much bigger snorkel then the 454. it also has a vacumn operated butterfly valve. when is acutated by a temperature controled switch that allowes it to close when it is cold and has vacumn. that forces the hot air from the manifold to come up thru the duct into the air cleaner. when the car reaches operating temp the vac is cut off and the butterfly opens drawing cooler engine compartment air in.. you could take that snorkel fit it to a 454 cowl induction air cleaner cover. get rid of the temp control thing and split the vacumn source from the hood flap. now the butterfly has to be fliped so that instead of closing when it has vacumn it closes when it does not have vacumn. be sur to block off the hole where the duct goes down to the manifold. you can find these air cleaner cover plentyfull in junk yards. now when your car is running it gets more air thru the snorkel and when the cowl opend the snorkel is blocked off so you reep all the benifets of the high pressure induction. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif
am I a frickin genius? thats why my web site is einstyn.com I try not to waste all my education in one place! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 03-19-2002).]

Just so you dont think nobody read your research. Cool idea indeed and makes sense to me. Now all there is left is for ya to run out and grab the pieces, make it work, and post some pics and a description of the job. VIOLA! Instant TC mac daddy status.

I printed out the thread so's I can look it over and maybe workon this a little. Need to get my cowl working again and this sounds very interesting.

In short, yeah you were talking to yourself but that doesnt mean nobody was listening. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/cool.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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'70 SS 396
4spd, 4.10's and a smile
TC# 1341
Beaux
The SS (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmyss.JPG)
My sloppy engine bay (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmill.JPG)

Life is a game. You just have to know the cheat codes to win.

[This message has been edited by Midnight Marauder (edited 03-19-2002).]

thanks bro, and you witnesed that I thunk it. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

oh, i when out and checked if an engin can start while the snorkel door was closed and the heat rised was blocked, and it can. then in this new system the vacumn emidiatly would open it as soon as its available(same time the cowl flaper visable closes) man you gotta love it. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif
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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
. . _________ . . . . . .. _________
.../___---___\ . . ____/|__|__\___\
(OO[=====]OO) {_______________|
.{}.............{}.....O...............O....
1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 03-19-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FO_FDYFO:
thanks bro, and you witnesed that I thunk it. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. So are you planning on developing this? Working on it? I plan to look into improved induction through existing set-up in the near future but have to get the cowl induction in working order again. This sounds like a good alternative to ram air boxes and such. Improving on the original design with minimal and subtle design changes would be top notch.



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'70 SS 396
4spd, 4.10's and a smile
TC# 1341
Beaux
The SS (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmyss.JPG)
My sloppy engine bay (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmill.JPG)

Life is a game. You just have to know the cheat codes to win.

Gotta get mine 2 cents in! The flapper(inner&outer)is just a gimmick!! The real value of CI is the ambient air being fed to the carb through the raised cowl! The inner flapper is useless and it actually impedes the air flow to the carb. The outer flapper is useless too but it looks cool and its fun to watch! Also the more its open the worse your gas mileage!

As for the snorkel issue, I don't see this as anything more than a place where hot engine compartment air can get into the carb nullifying the whole point of the CI! I used a rubber expansion plug to seal the snorkel hole, it looks neat and makes people ask questions!

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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

[This message has been edited by Big James 4XL (edited 03-19-2002).]

Hey EINSTYN! I`m just glad to get responses, lots of good thinkin goin on out there, guess thats why we dont drive fords, anyone else got an idea? it can only get better. Thanks..

Wow, looks like I missed a big chunk of this conversation. Sucks when you actually have to do some work while at work http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif. This is a great topic. I see what you're saying 454. I agree it seems to make sense to plug the snorkel if the inner door is always open or even omitted entirely. Big James is right on with the gimmick angle but yeah, it's fun to watch that outer door! James, do you have a pic handy of the plug you used?

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Mark
1970 SS454 LS6 (nom)
TH400/4.10 posi
Formerly Cranberry Red now War Bonnet Yellow
-------------------------
"Fight Apathy - the disease no one cares about."

well , i understand the gimmik. but there is some truth to the assistance of the cowl induction. there are people who can contest to the increas of top end power and speed. grant it , it is slight. i have run a little test with tapeing little ribbons on the hood and windshield to watch the ribbons go it the direction of the air flow. there is a slightly higher pressure zone back swerling into that cowl. big james, no disrespect, http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gifbut why did gm do thru the trouble to put the inner flapper door there? the outer door would have satisfied there gimmik motive, and i dont think it impeeds the air flow beyond what the engines air requirements are. also the flapper while neat and all does (when open) act like a air scoope catching the high pressure swirl. do the test your self. dyno results won't show this obviously because you are not getting the benifits of moving air. you have to test it at the track. when i am finnished with mine i will test it out.

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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
. . _________ . . . . . .. _________
.../___---___\ . . ____/|__|__\___\
(OO[=====]OO) {_______________|
.{}.............{}.....O...............O....
1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FO_FDYFO:
you have to test it at the track. when i am finnished with mine i will test it out.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


When you do or if you have pics of development I am VERY interested in seeing them. If anything, please email me with your progress. Maybe i'll go to the yard and look for some parts later in the week to play around with as well. Heck, even if there wasnt any noticeable difference it would make for a good conversation piece when you pop the hood and custom stuff is always cool.

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'70 SS 396
4spd, 4.10's and a smile
TC# 1341
Beaux
The SS (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmyss.JPG)
My sloppy engine bay (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmill.JPG)

Life is a game. You just have to know the cheat codes to win.

Midnight, I will keep you abreast. I am defiantly going to do it. the more I keep thinking about it, it should be a win-win situation. in the tech section there is a thread going on about air cleaners now. and if you look at the 71 dual snorkel it has way more open area then the CI cleaner. and I am standing by my theory that they sacrificed the open area at low rpm to not loose any more benefit from when the hood flapper opens at higher rpm. that's why that opening is so small. so it will not hurt to enlarge that snorkel opening as long as it closes when the cowl flap opens. so at the very least your able to draw more air in through the snorkel and also get as much of the cowl high pressure air as possible. cant loose. I will be stopping by a junk yard tomorrow. test the operation of the vacuum pod first! then I am going to work on flipping the butterfly valve actuated by the vacuum pod so it works opposite from the way it works now. then cut it off of the air cleaner housing figuring how much to leave to allow the best attaching method. then block off the hole underneath where the stretchy duct went to the heat riser on the exhaust manifold. mark up my brand new CI cleaner cover, cut and attach.!!! get a tee to split the vacuum controlled supply line into the hood flapper and they should work one opens while the other closes.! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FO_FDYFO:
big james, no disrespect, http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gifbut why did gm do thru the trouble to put the inner flapper door there? the outer door would have satisfied there gimmik motive
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess is its there more from an emissions standpoint, keeping under hood emissions under the hood? I believe in this case if a little is good more is better! with the inner flapper gone the cowl intake is open, see here (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/no%20inner%20flapper.JPG)

See my snorkel plug here (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/snorkel%20block.jpg.JPG)





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ACES member# 5093
Elcaminos are special!
I'd rather walk around with a Chevrolet hubcap in my hand than drive a Ford

Ole Paint (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/olepaint1)

ok, well I bought a newer caprice taxi air cleaner in a junk yard for $4.oo. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif
it works great!
-I took it all apart.
-drilled new holes .35" above the existing butterfly pin holes. (this was so the butterfly could stay closed until the vac pod pulled it closed)
- while the butterfly was out, cut off the round plate attached to it that was used to block off the opening on the bottom when the butterfly was open.
- I cut the snorkel off the housing.
- now I put it all back together and tested it with a vacuum gun. it works with like 3 pounds of vacuum smoothly.
- now I need to weld up the hole in the bottom that the stove pipe went to.
- I am thinking hard about how to attach it to my new CI air cleaner bow before I cut anything. but I am thinking of just cutting it off a half inch from the box, and slipping the new one over the flange and welding it around.
I will take pics and post. but I has real happy how easy this mod is and who smoothly the actuation works. http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_4560562/Pete/Wagon+Stuff/filter-a.jpg?bc2gKn8APcGgHKgM
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/g_4560562/Pete/Wagon+Stuff/filter-b.jpg?bc2gKn8A0k8OB0Q3


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Only in America do they have drive-up ATM machines with Braille lettering and people leave cars worth thousands of dollars in the driveway and put our useless junk in the garage. www.EINSTYN.com (http://www.EINSTYN.com) TC#1460, VCEA#2
. . _________ . . . . . .. _________
.../___---___\ . . ____/|__|__\___\
(OO[=====]OO) {_______________|
.{}.............{}.....O...............O....
1970 Chevelle 454 Wagons

[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 03-22-2002).]

[This message has been edited by FO_FDYFO (edited 03-22-2002).]

Sweet. Man you move like greased lightning. Thansk for posting the pics. I may go look for one to play with this sunday after the Good Guys show. Keep us (me especially por favor) posted. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/cool.gif

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'70 SS 396
4spd, 4.10's and a smile
TC# 1341
Beaux
The SS (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmyss.JPG)
My sloppy engine bay (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/btmill.JPG)

Life is a game. You just have to know the cheat codes to win.

guys, i am going to be pulled away from my computer for a week, but i will catch up when i get back, and post any new info. cu

The flapper door was a gimic and never proven to add any thing.