Gotta love the History channel, you learn so goddamed much.

There seems to be alot of technology out there both new and old for running a vehicle on an alternate fuel. Be it hydrogen cells or peanut oil, it seems it can be done without loss of power. Aperantly when the diesel engine was first created, it was designed to run off of numerous different plant and vegetable oils. Odd how you never hear about this.

Conspiracy anyone?

At my old school...I watched a guy on tv make his diesel Mercedes ( I think ) run off of some kind of cooking oil. He said it costs him about 11c per gallon to run his car I think....but he had to change some stuff around on his engine.

Pretty neat idea though !

Would that be good or bad, your vehicle's exhaust smelling like a French Fry? ;)

Jim

Originally posted by Westopher:
Gotta love the History channel, you learn so goddamed much.

There seems to be alot of technology out there both new and old for running a vehicle on an alternate fuel. Be it hydrogen cells or peanut oil, it seems it can be done without loss of power. Aperantly when the diesel engine was first created, it was designed to run off of numerous different plant and vegetable oils. Odd how you never hear about this.

Conspiracy anyone? Ya know, every time this subject comes up, the skeptics run rampant and kill the thread! The bottom line is.....there is WAY too much evidence to prove these theories......to simply pass it off as hoax! People need to quit being so closed minded and buying into the lies we are being fed by the government and oil companies! Check out some of the patents of these inventions.......who bought them out.......and WHY are they not being used TODAY? Duh! It's all about the $$$, AND it's being ripped right out of your wallet and into your gas tank! CONSPIRACY? Yeah, I smell it.....and it stinks! :mad:

Heres just ONE link:

http://www.valleysoapbox.com/ConspiracyTheoryGasolineMEvans061002.htm

There's a million more!

What can YOU or ME do about it? Probably nothing!
You can't fight a dollar with a dime! And if you try......You'll be either forced out of the business by some new law written just for you OR you'll be bought out OR you'll just mysteriously disappear! :confused:

Sad but true!

O.K, sorry off my soapbox now......... tongue.gif

Somebody around here does that, he buys the used cooking oil from fast food restaurants for fairly cheap. And from what I understand, the conversion took about a weekend with minimal cash.

Heres another one:

http://shop.alienzoo.com/conspiracytheory/bushoilconspiracy.html

Good reading, I think!

Originally posted by Silver69Camaro:
Somebody around here does that, he buys the used cooking oil from fast food restaurants for fairly cheap. And from what I understand, the conversion took about a weekend with minimal cash. Sounds like a plan to me... just gotta figure out how to heat the "gas" tank so that it doesn't solidify in the winter

Originally posted by Westopher:
Aperantly when the diesel engine was first created, it was designed to run off of numerous different plant and vegetable oils. Odd how you never hear about this.
yeah really, i watched a show about this guy who drove across country in a diesel van that was un modified, got 20 something miles to the gallon and ran off some kind of composite fuel made from methane and plants.

the gasoline companys must have threatend to cut their comercials or something because i've NEVER seen anything about this guy since then.

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid557.php

Hydrogen for fuel cells isn't free.......

I still like the E85 that we run in the van 105 octane and .15 less than regular gas.

Originally posted by bulb122:
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid557.php

Hydrogen for fuel cells isn't free....... Who says it was? Now what about oil from kitchens in your town? I'm sure you can get for damn near free. Plus, like it was said before, your exhaust will smell like french fries!
Yummy.

I'm actually looking into an alternative fuel vehicle for work. A buddy of mine is an engineer for the company that establishes and installs CNG fueling stations. There's one just a couple miles from our office, so running a service truck on it would be very practical. The cost is only $150 more for an identically equipped vehicle from Ford, GM is similar. Operating costs are essentially the same I'm told, but a big bonus for going this route would be that we could take advantage of a huge tax break on the van, plus it would allow single occupant diamond lane access. This would potentially save hundreds of hours per year in reduced travel time.
(For those that are not aware, the diamond lane is reserved for carpools of more than 1 person. In some areas of CA, it requires 3 occupants.)

BTW, the company my buddy works for is called Clean Energy. Their website is below. It contains lots of information and interesting links.
Clean Energy Fuels company website (http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/index.html)

He has told me that although the fryer grease/oil can provide an "alternate" fuel source, it produces more hydrocarbons than diesel when it is burned, making it more harmful to the enviornment.
+++

There's 2 ways with vegetable oil. Either you mix the oil with lye and methanol in the right proportions and get biodiesel which will directly replace diesel and run without car modifications or you run a dual fuel system and burn straight vegetable oil. You need the dual fuel system because you warm the engine up and then use the engine heat to warm the oil enough it flows. Basically, you run on diesel at the beginning and end or the trip and oil in the middle.

At one time, I did think that hydrogen would be a good fuel source but where does the fuel (energy) to make the hydrogen come from? Electrical with batteries means we need to upgrade the electrical grid to charge them and batteries aren't the easiest things to recycle.

Peter

HMMMMMMMMMMMM, a biodiesel converted Cummins in a Chevelle.

If a diesel will push that monster of a 4x4 in the other thread into the 11s I wonder what it could do in a lighter car. Plus fuel would be cheap (I'd like a cheeseburger, fries and 10 pounds of the old oil out of your fryer:) ) and the exhaust smell would get folks down to the concession stand after your runs.

I don't see a downside yet :D

K

Originally posted by Westopher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bulb122:
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid557.php

Hydrogen for fuel cells isn't free....... Who says it was? Now what about oil from kitchens in your town? I'm sure you can get for damn near free. Plus, like it was said before, your exhaust will smell like french fries!
Yummy. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't have anything against alternate fuel research, but touting ANY of the current ideas against conventional gasoline just doesn't work. Gasoline is simply the best, by far.

Gas:
New gas engines in smaller cars are 99.9% clean compared to unregulated cars of the 50's and 60's. Cars today are more fuel efficent than ever...(not counting your 14mpg Explorer) It's tought to beat the fuel efficiency, cleanliness, and convienence of oil.

Hydrogen:
Comes primarily from fossil fuel. Using it is still a non-renewable resource. Sure it can be split from water, but when you use it and make water again, you have lost some energy. (nothing is for free) The electricity used to split it out of water comes from electric plants that are primarily fossil fueled. And when you split it out of water, is simply takes more energy than you can get back out of it. Sure it's clean at the end use, but not at the production plant. Also, they keep saying that hydrogen is the most abundant element......yes it is, but it's ALWAYS attatched to something else. Seperating the hydrogen costs money and energy.

CNG:
Non-renewable, again, it's a fossil fuel. It is clean, but seeing as it's another fossil fuel it's just a temporary solution.

Cooking oil:
Do you actually think that there is enough used cooking oil to fill everybody's tank?? And higher hydrocarbon emmissions than diesel? Gasoline is cleaner than both......

Ethanol:
I think ethanol is the best thing we have at the moment. It's actually renewable, and there are no massive fueling infrastructure changes required to use it. IIRC, it has lower energy content compared to gasoline, so your mileage will drop, and emissions will increase?


Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the study of alternate fuels. We need to study these. But don't try to sell me a bill of goods that any one of these solutions is better for our resources or environment. Personally I think the best thing we can do is try to drive newer cars that are cleaner and more fuel efficient than ever, and quit driving 14mpg SUV's to work 105 miles each day. Sure I drive an old polluting chevelle, but only occasionally. I have a Focus to drive to work, and it gets pretty good mileage (low 30's) and has low tailpipe emissions. That's the best I can do at the moment.

I'm not bashing anybody, just stating my opinion. smile.gif I honestly don't think we will be using ANY of the current alternative fuels in any sort of quantity. Maybe we'll see some more ethanol, but that's it. I think most of the new fuels will be like electric cars..... an expensive novelty. Maybe I'm wrong..... ;)

Chris

I think Mr. Diesel ran his first diesel engine on believe it or not, COAL DUST!!

As for alternate fuels, the best thing that could happen to us is the importation and sales of corn-popper commuter cars that get above 50 mpg!!

My 2000 Chevy/Suzuki Metro, 3-banger/5-speed, 3-door Hatch gets like 48 to 52 mpg running from 58 to 62 mph on the highway without the A/C on!!

BUT you can't buy it anymore!!

Go figure b/c GM is slowly converting all their world wide partners over to the GM "bigger is better and more profitable" thing and said ta h-ll with gas mileage!!

I don't buy it for a minute that they say they sell what the people want!! but rather, they will buy what we sell them..........

DON'T get me started!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pdq67

I don't buy it for a minute! Todays engine technology is easily capable of 100 + MPG but the automobile manufactures are all in bed with the oil companies.....it's all about the money!

Duh, turn the lights back on, it's easy to see!

Originally posted by z-mans-67:
I don't buy it for a minute! Todays engine technology is easily capable of 100 + MPG but the automobile manufactures are all in bed with the oil companies.....it's all about the money!

Duh, turn the lights back on, it's easy to see! I for one, will question the validity of such a statement. I wonder if you have any suporting information (statistics, data, real world evidence) to support such a claim, or is it simply stated out of frustration, anger, resentment, etc?
+++

I'm not sure I folllow everyone's point about diesel emmissions. The reason they are not not required to get smog checks is because properly tuned they produce virtually no HC, no CO and no Nox. High particulates I grant you, but the emissions the EPA (joke organization) is worried about are not an issue with diesels. I agree the gasoline route is the best thing going now. Chryslet tried the electric route with a minivan called "epic". worked ok except range was only like 100 miles when the battery pack died (expected life was 50K) it was going to cost over 25,000 dollars to replace them. No typo25K, can you see the ad in the paper "good caravan, just needs batteries, best offer" Cooking oil for power, I know it' s true I read the write-up on the car in a trade publication, but really. Do we all need to start eating more deep fried food to make fuel? I like the hydrogen idea, except isn't there a bomb or something based on that same principle, oh yeah there is. Good idea until you get in an accident and vaporize a small town. :D :D

Originally posted by bulb122:

Cooking oil:
Do you actually think that there is enough used cooking oil to fill everybody's tank?? And higher hydrocarbon emmissions than diesel? Gasoline is cleaner than both......

There may not be enough to fill EVERYONES tank, but I believe that there could be enough to fill the tanks of the people that actually have enough gumption to try and make their own fuel. I, myself, am considering buying an 84 4 cyl diesel F-rd Ranger pickup, and trying to make my own biodiesel. Believe it or not, it actually runs cleaner than diesel. When I was researching it people were making it for about 32 cents a gallon, on average. I think its worth it. Resturants actually PAY someone to come and get their old cooking oil, You'd actually be saving them money by taking it and making fuel out of it. Most places here would GLADLY give you however much you needed. On another note... how many of you have actually seen a 4 cyl Ranger diesel?

Originally posted by Westopher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bulb122:
http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid557.php

Hydrogen for fuel cells isn't free....... Who says it was? Now what about oil from kitchens in your town? I'm sure you can get for damn near free. Plus, like it was said before, your exhaust will smell like french fries!
Yummy. </font>[/QUOTE]It's not just as easy as getting used cooking oil. You have to do some pretty serious filtration work on it before you can make it worthwhile.

I have a coworker who drives a car that runs on used cooking oil. There was an article online once about how he did it but I can't seem ti find it right now. If I do, I'll post the link

I would be intrested in eharing about that.
Sure there isn't enough cooking oil to run everyones car (as RacnJsn95 pointed out), but would it be too far fetched to imagine multiple fuels available at a single station for different engine types?

Originally posted by Westopher:
I would be intrested in eharing about that.
Sure there isn't enough cooking oil to run everyones car No, there isn't

But you're looking at it in terms of the amount of oil produced NOW vs the amount that can be produced if it were used for purposes other than just cooking.

As it is we pay farmers to not grow crops. If we were it start using corn oil as a fuel or a fuel additive, not only would we be reducing our dependance on fossil oils ( and the countires that supply us with it) but we'd be giving US farmers something to grow and likly at a higher market price than they get now.

I don't see a whole lot of downside to that situation. Sure, it's not for everyone, but if we could get even a small portion of the current diesel vehicle fleet running on veg oil, it would have to have a positive effect on both polluiotn and the farm economy in the US

Originally posted by Chevello:
HMMMMMMMMMMMM, a biodiesel converted Cummins in a Chevelle.

If a diesel will push that monster of a 4x4 in the other thread into the 11s I wonder what it could do in a lighter car. Plus fuel would be cheap (I'd like a cheeseburger, fries and 10 pounds of the old oil out of your fryer:) ) and the exhaust smell would get folks down to the concession stand after your runs.

I don't see a downside yet :D

K The downside is with that same Cummins in your car, you would have no where to sit! ;)
I can not see methanol ever making it as a fuel for passenger cars. That stuff is bad. The city of Vancouver tried it in some of their busses and the some of the mechanics are still off work years later with ailments related to prolonged exposure. We use it in our modifieds and 6 or 7 years ago, we got a flat and came in to change it. The driver kept the engine runing and the exhaust was almost in my face. I got so sick I threw up and to this day, just a whif of it and I am barfing. Go to a world of outlaws race and sit down low. Your eyes will be burning and running. Could you imagine that in rush hour traffic? Also, if you get 10 mpg with gasoline, you will only get around 5 with Methanol.
At this point, I think natural gas is your best bet if you are concerned about polution and want to save some money. It burns clean and there is lots of it right here in North America. My daily driver is an F350 on propane and I love it. I would convert to natural gas in a minute if it were available here.

Originally posted by bcice:
I can not see methanol ever making it as a fuel for passenger cars. Not Methanol, Biodiesel. Alcohol vs oil.

I thought that was a good show also graemlins/thumbsup.gif
I've thought about trying to use ethanol before.
Here is a good site to do some research on:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me2.html
It's a little skewed, but at lease there are links to both pro and con articles.

Right now, here in town E85 (85% ethanol) is 5 cents more per gallon than E10 (10% ethanol, we are required to run oxegenated fuel here).

bulb 122: Ethanol:
I think ethanol is the best thing we have at the moment. It's actually renewable, and there are no massive fueling infrastructure changes required to use it. IIRC, it has lower energy content compared to gasoline, so your mileage will drop, and emissions will increase?
I agree, it's totally renewable, but your milage would decrease somewhat, but I don't think emissions would increase.
Just think about this: With the higher octane rating of ethanol, you could increase the compression ratio, which will increase power output. Then the mpg difference compaired to gas would be less.

Personally, I'm more worried about our dependancy on oil producing nations, than the problems associated with ethanol.
Now, I just need to get my distillery license (more big brother crap graemlins/angry.gif ), and cook away.
Maby some day.

Back in the day, I used to work for Cities Service Oil & Gas. We had an experimental process going in the Tulsa research lab that converted coal to gasoline. Used heat and a catalyst. Problem was you are still using a depleatable (sp) fuel source (Coal) and lots of energy to produce.

The only "totally renewable/replenishable" fuel source is solar power. Unfortunately, the efficiency of today's best solar cells is still too low to make them an affordable option.
Also it should be noted that the effects/impact on the environment from manufacturing high-efficiency solar cells overshadows (or at least significantly reduces) their reduced/zero emissions readings when used to power a vehicle.
Concern for our environment must be expanded beyond the current views that most people take. We cannot just look at the effects produced at the tailpipe of a car, we need to consider "the whole picture" including the manufacturing, maintenance, and "recycle-ability" of its' individual components when the car is retired.
Anyone that disregards these aspects and cries about tailpipe emissions is either ignorant, a hypocrit, or both.
By the way, I'm not taking a stand either way on this topic, just pointing out that there are more things to consider than just the vehicle emissions.
+++

Originally posted by dan_cobb:
just pointing out that there are more things to consider than just the vehicle emissions.
+++ That makes too much sense for anyone in Sacramento to listen.

Originally posted by bcice:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chevello:
HMMMMMMMMMMMM, a biodiesel converted Cummins in a Chevelle.

If a diesel will push that monster of a 4x4 in the other thread into the 11s I wonder what it could do in a lighter car. Plus fuel would be cheap (I'd like a cheeseburger, fries and 10 pounds of the old oil out of your fryer:) ) and the exhaust smell would get folks down to the concession stand after your runs.

I don't see a downside yet :D

K The downside is with that same Cummins in your car, you would have no where to sit! ;)
</font>[/QUOTE]OK, maybe a Monte then ;)