I just took my car in to get it appraised. The guy doing the appraisal owns a restoration shop and does high end restos (60k frame-offs)

I've done a lot of research and with a lot of digging and help from the freindly group at TC have confirmed without question that my engine and transmission are matching numbers.

I ask the appraiser how much confirmed matching numbers increases the value of the car. His reply was "very little" unless you're dealing with a Corvette or a high horsepower model with a rare optional engine. He said wih the technology in restamping blocks, that unless the car is highly documented. (buildsheet, window sticker, protecto-plate etc.) The value would not increase substatially. And even with documetation (which is easily forged) it wouldn't increase much. Although he did say it was nice to know, an apprraisal was done more on condition and cosmetics as apposed to matching numbers.

Really? I'm not an expert by any means but all I've heard my whole life is "matching numbers" "matching numbers" I remember when this changed the value by as much as 50%. And now its of no consequense?

What is everyone elses opinion on this? It dosent sound correct to me.

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Check out my 69 SS 396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/1969ChevelleSS396)

Nice '69 !

There are different ways to look at this. I'll use your car for an example.

What would be the difference in value if your car was a clone (not an original SS) vs a real SS (without the original engine, but with documentation). I would guess perhaps 20-40%

What would be the difference in value of a documented SS-396 with and without the numbers matching engine. I would guess perhaps 10-20%


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Dan Carr
dcarr@chevelles.com
Team Chevelle Gold Member #11, ACES #701
Author of the GMC Sprint, El Camino, and '68-'72 SS Authentication pages.
See my GM A-body fleet at:
www.rmi.net/~dcarr/cars/cars.HTM (http://www.rmi.net/~dcarr/cars/cars.HTM)

69396ss, As a fellow '69 SS owner, can I ask what it appraised for? If that's private, I understand.

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von '69 300 Dlx SS TC #15 ACES #1575

Dan, that sounds logical to me but the appraiser does not agree. There has to be some value to a matching numbers drivetrain, and,in the example of mine, it proves SS originality because no 396/th400 combos were offered in non SS cars. I'd get a second opinion but he's the only game in town.

Von, I don't know yet, he took down the info, looked it over, took my money and will do the appraisal and mail it to me. Probably smarter than haggling with the owners on the spot. I'll let you know though. You were very helpfull to me about a month ago when I e-mailed you asking how to determine SS originality before I bought the car!

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Check out my 69 SS 396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/1969ChevelleSS396)

I have a 69 SS with the protect-o-plate and the original sales contract. But not the original motor, although still a 69 396 motor. It seems to me that documentation like a build sheet, p-o-p and anything else could only make it more valuable as it helps verify the real deal and not a clone. Nothing wrong with a well done clone but most of the SS cars for sale are not genuine.Seems to me that not many people go to all the trouble of making the numbers match for things like the heads, intake and all the other pieces. Numbers matching would make it more valuable in my opinion. Rich

This is one of those topics that will surely bring many opinions, mostly b/c I feel it's a very subjective thing.....that being whether the potential buyer cares or not if the car is matching #. Some folks could care less, and therefore a matching # car is worth no more to them than a just as nice non matching car....On the other hand, those who have that need for a matching car will pass on a very nicely restored car if it's not matching.....the car is only worth as much as the potential buyer is willing to pay. Also, remember that the term matching Number is used very loosely sometimes, some consider M.N. if the paint is orig. and the engine is orig. while others need every component to match before calling it this ( altenator, manifolds, trans, etc.....) So, should it increase the value of the car...I think so....does an appraissor think so...probably not...b/c he's not buying your car. That's my 2 cents..carry on.

BTW 69ss396...I can see why you are excited, we call that: A Real Steal for $11,500
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[This message has been edited by 66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE (edited 05-24-2000).]

I agree with Dan on this one.I also place more emphasis on documents and originality then the numbers game.Today is just too easy to restamp a block and make it look authentic with the right broch marking.Like I said in previous posts its impossible to spot a restamp these days with the crafty people out there.If I were to appraise your SS I would first look at what it is a REAL SS396/buildsheet/POP/or on its own merit,second the condition of the vehicle,and third the "correct" parts on the car ie casting #s and SS equiptment.I would place little on the stamped numbers.just my 2cents

I never found any documentation at all in my 69
The VIN stamped on my engine is about the only thing that verifies my 69 to be an original SS since only the SS cars came with 396 engines.

But now I hear you can get repo build sheets and just about anything else to prove a clone to be an original SS car so before long if you tell someone you have all the docs, they'll just say "yeah right"



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Dean Call
Team Gold member #3
A.C.E.S. # 00235
Mid America Chevelle Club (http://macc.chevelles.net) #001
chevelles.net (http://chevelles.net)
My 69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/deans69.jpg)

Well, since everyone seems to be of the same opinion about this numbers matching deal here, it's time someone argues for the "not matching" and clones. When buying my chevelle I thought a long time about the importance of matching numbers, and I priced alot of cars and matching ones were always higher. But I opted for a clone (albeit a very very well done one). If I had a matching numbers car I felt like I would have a peice of history. Which would be fine if I wanted to put it in a museum. I wanted a car that I could drive as I please and if I happen to bend it, or blow a motor, or a tree crushes it, I won't feel like committing suicide because it was a "matching numbers" car. If I had a perfect matching numbers car I would drive it sooo carefully that you wouldn't be able to tell it was a muscle car. But in my 454 clone, you'd better bet I'm willing to jam it to the floor when the late model mustang starts showing attitude at a light. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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ACES# 3815
TC #649
1970 Malibu 307
1972 SS 350
1970 SS 396
and 20 years later..
72 SS Clone 454

Just my lowly opinion. I've always thought this whole deal depends on what you are doing with the car. A "collector" car would have to be a special purpose car to start with, and in this a numbers matching drivetrain would greatly increase the value. When I see an early Z28 or SS Chevelle with replacement drive train, I expect to see a price tag about 50 percent of a complete original. On the other hand a driver car would not be nearly as critical since it would be modified anyway. A 69SS with original drive train would carry a premium price tag in my opinion.

OK guys,

Just got my info back from the appraiser and I was a little suprised by the results. He agreed it was a very nice straight well done amatuer restoration and strong 3++ car with only minor engine and dash detailing needed to bring it to the #2 level.

Since many who replied were 69 SS owners. Does anyone know the values of a 69 SS in numbers 1, 2, and 3 condition? I know its difficult to answer but I was curious if anyone had a current price guide? Just for a general idea.

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Check out my 69 SS 396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/1969ChevelleSS396)

Does that mean your going to keep us all in suspense on the apprassed value??? Just kiddin, that might not be something you want to share.

Mike

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I guess if I was happy with it I would'nt mind sharing. But since we're all brothers here on Team Chevelle, and your taunting me as if you actually were http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

He appraised it at $12,500. I guess since I paid $11,500 I should be happy but I thought big block chevelles commanded a higher price. Keep in mind this is a nice car. The previous owner had $22K in resto receipts alone, I'm trying not to be bias.

All I can really do to the car is factory correct engine detailing and dash restoration and its done. If he appraised it at $12,500 for a # ++3 /-2 car, Whats a number 1 worth? I did a nation wide search on Traderonline and 15K was getting in the Top Dollar range on a 69 SS with usually no mention of matching #'s.

Whats it cost to do a nice correct frame off restoration? 25K + ?

I guess I better watch how much I put into it. Just minor detailing and enjoy it. Hell I might even smoke the tires now. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif


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Check out my 69 SS 396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/1969ChevelleSS396)

[This message has been edited by 69396ss (edited 05-26-2000).]

I'll say it again, "A car is only worth as much as the potential buyer is willing to pay for it." Which translates to, you can toss that apprasal out the window, it means nothing! Would you have liked your car more if he valued it at $18,000...I doubt it. Detail the engine, take good care of the car and enjoy it... It's very nice...and that's coming from a '66 addict.

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I think its worth quite a bit more than what Mr appraiser said. How many SS cars of any year did you find during your search for your car, in that kind of condition for $11,500, or even $12,500 for that matter? Not many I'll bet. Probably none. If your car is in the condition that it seems to be in, and that you say its in ( I saw your pics, looks very nice to me)and you were to sell it in Southern California, it would bring between $14,000-18,000. That's what its worth. Great find. Enjoy.

Well I agree about a car being worth what someones willing to pay.I close friend just sold a 69 SS 396/325hp Camaro for 30K!Nothing special and he really didn't even want to sell it but the person who bought the car new tracked the car down and just had to have it!I guess he was reliving a part of his youth.

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Dean Ciampi
Autumn gold LS6 Chevelle
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/ (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)



[This message has been edited by 260 (edited 05-26-2000).]

I would have to agree that it seems a little low but I am not a "professional" appraiser. When I had my car appraised the appraiser got ads from Hemmings and others to show market value. Keep in mind that the appraisal will help with an insurance claim and also with a stated value policy. You do have a nice car and it sounds like you got it for a bargain price.

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Jeff
Georgia
69SS and 67 Elky

When I bought my Chevelle the lady who owened it had the car appraised at 8,500. My car is a #4, but what caught my eye on the HMN add was that it was a one owner. She was firm on her price of $8,000. I offered her $7,945 because she said that the Cowl Induction valve was bad an needed to be replaced. I showed them a Year One catalog I had with me showing that the valve was $55.00. Well, her husband told me that it was my problem to replace it. The price was still 8k. I never checked the numbers because I didn't know anything about matching numbers or what to look for. I asked her husband if the engine was the original one and he replied it was. So, I took his word and I paid them 8k and they gave me a fat folder along with the Chevelle. I drove the car from MA to VA and it ran like a baby. She was kind enough to do an oil change for me. This is when I discovered "Team Chevelle" and like everyone else I began to ask questions. Mike R. was kind enough to guide me through the process. I had given him some numbers and they didn't match. Well, I was not happy with the findings. I went back to the garage and cleaned the block pad real good and gave the numbers to Mike. This time I had better news. It was a matching numbers cars. Mike also informed me that it was built in Canada and that this car could be further documented. I went through the folder the lady had given me and this is what she had: original purchase form, original invoice, original window sticker, original receipt for paying the MA taxes, original receipt from the dealer for paying the Chevelle cash, maintanance records dating back to May of 1970 until the day she sold it to me. She then had a separate log book where she documented the mileage. In this log book she wrote the following info: date, mileage, location of the gas station, amount purchased, price per gallon, octane and any repairs done to the Chevelle. Any repairs would match the log book and the receipts. The mileage has been documented from 5.1 miles until today at 134,000. As I kept getting involved with Team Chevelle I began to hear about "Built Sheets". I called the owner and asked her if she had the built sheet. She said, "NO". I began to look for it all over the Chevelle. One day I found a small strip of paper 2 1/2 X 8 1/2. I was not happy bacause I had read that the built sheets are 8 1/2 X 11. Well, posted my findings in tag team and Michael confirmed that what I had found was indeed the built sheet. Canadian built sheets are different from the ones you find in an American built Chevelle. I was now getting excited. All I needed was the P-O-P. I called the previous owner and she clearly remembers throwing it away when the warranty expired. After I had the Chevelle for two years she mailed me the original Owners Manual. She had ordered this Chevelle with bucket seats and no console. Making it a very rare combination. Will all this documentation increase the value of my Chevelle? It all depends who wants to buy it. Someone who is looking at the Chevelle for investment will pay more money than some one who just want a Chevelle for joy rides. By the way the info received from GM Canada matches my built sheet. My question is, what makes a car perfectly documented?
Luis!!Canadian70SS
Team Chevelle Gold #46
Maryland Chevelle Club
ACES

The answer to your last question is simple Luis, just go back and read your own reply here....sounds like your car is perfectly documented to me!

Mike

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So Luis,

Just out of curiousity, what numbers did you intially give that didn't match?


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Check out my 69 SS 396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/1969ChevelleSS396)

69396ss - VRM claims to use sales info to back their pricing... Take a look at their info on a '69SS http://www.vmrintl.com/cctm/cctmenus/cctmprcs\69chchss.htm It's all about what the buyer will pay and I find that where you are also makes a big difference in what someone is willing to pay. To get pricing inof on other vehicles, here's their main page http://www.vmrintl.com

You have a nice car and you didn't foot the 22k to make it that way... I say you win! And unless you need the cash to feed your family or something don't sweat the value!!!

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...DjD
69 Ragtop

[This message has been edited by Fine69 (edited 05-28-2000).]

69396SS, first of all I will like to congratulate you on your finding. Your car brings me some memories. I have a friend back in P.R. who shipped one back in the 70s. As he is a mechanic always kept it in top shape. But he got tired of it and parked it. I was trying to buy it from him but he said, no I want it for my son. A couple of years back they had it painted and rebuilt the engine. It is now his son daily driver. It's exactly like yours. I had offered him 5k even though it was not worth that much. But I knew it was all original.
When I gave Mike R. the numbers they were not to easy to read. I believe it was the CTW. I went back and cleaned the pad better and gave the new numbers to Mike. When I detailed the engine compartment I also found out that the T400 is the original one. The last 6 digits match the last 6 digits of the VIN #.
Luis!! Canadian70SS
Team Chevelle Gold #46
MCC
ACES

Unreal, Everyone check out the link that
fine69 listed on current values. A number
1 69 SS 396 is valued at 14K? Everyone
raise there hand who would pay 14K for a
number 1 condition 69 chevelle SS. (to me
a number one car is just that, #1, as in
best of show winner at a national event.)

14K? Insane.

Or even better still, #2 1970 chevelle SS
10,400 + 60% for a LS6 - 15% for bench
seat, no power steering and column shift

14K for a #2 70 SS LS6 equiped as above.

a rare, #'s matching, high local show
quality, #2 , 450 HP street stripper.

Anyone ready to sell?

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Check out my 69 SS
396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/
1969ChevelleSS396)

[This message has been edited by 69396ss (edited 05-28-2000).]

John can you just clarify for me abit, do you think the 14K for a # 1 69 SS is insane b/c it's underpriced or overpriced...I thinkI know which you mean, but I'm a little thick today I guess....

Mike

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Mike, I'll answer your question with a proposition to all TC members.

If anyone has a flawless #1 concourse restoration chevelle SS or a strong #2 70 Chevelle LS6 454/450 HP with low options for sale I'll write you a check today for 14.5K.

The site describes #1 as flawless concourse frame-off restoration with NOS parts.

The site describes #2 as fully restored body on or excellant original but not flawless as judged.

All prices assumed numbers matching with non numbers matching substantially reducing price.

My checkbooks ready guys!!!!

and point taken (fine69)



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Check out my 69 SS 396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/1969ChevelleSS396)

I hate to beat this to death. But, scroll up and check out 260's stunning Autumn gold 70 SS LS6 (I ache everytime I do) a 40,000 mile original LS6. Here's the figures AFTER the concourse frame off restoration he's planning.

#1 70 Chevelle SS $14,500
454/450HP LS6 $8,700
Air conditioning $1,450
4 speed tranny $1,015
cowl hood $725
ralley dash $725

Total $27,115

Do you think that maybe 260 might sell? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Please? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

(make sure you use NOS parts though) http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

(Sorry to drag you into this 260, it proved the point rather well though I thought.)

Appraisals and book values are useless.


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Check out my 69 SS 396 (http://community.webtv.net/johnlord/1969ChevelleSS396)

I once read in a Year One catalog that the only persons that profit from a restoration are the part supplier and the shop that restores the car. The 12th annual Maryland Chevelle Club had a perfect 1970/SS (LS6) 4sp. It was picked by Chuck (ACES President)as the best Chevelle in the show. Total amount in the restoration 65K. A year later it sold for about 45K. It was advertised in Team Chevelle. I think that if anyone plans to make money with an antique car is the person that is not selling his car. I have seen this happened a lot. A friend of mine bought a Corvette in Hawaii from a sailor. The engine had been replaced by a 350. He went back to the Hobby Shop and the original engine was sitting out side. It was an engine with the aluminum heads. He rebuilt it and sold the 350. He had 11,000 invested in the Corvette. Then one day as he was cruising a Japanise guy stopped him and without asking him offered my friend 35K. ""SOLD"", he said. When you are not in a rush to sell or do not want to sell you will get what you want. But when you are in a hurry you most likely will loose lots of money. Before I was transfered to Italy I had my Chevelle for sale. I had 11.5k invested and that was what I wanted. Noone offered my that amount so I put it away. I was not going to loose any money. The best part was the Chevelle was paid for, so I was not forced to sell it.
Luis!!Canadian 70SS
TCG 46
ACES
MCC
http://www.clark.net/pub/chevelle/jan99.htm