Ok, after much anticipation, my '68 is on the road, and aligned. Here's the scoop:

1. PST Polygraphite kit with the following changes; b-body ball joints, g-body outer tie rod ends, f-body 1.25 swaybar bushings, offset inner arms (installed reverse of normal).
2. Stock coil springs (new)all around, ordered from Ground Up.
3. New KYB shocks all around.
4. 12" b-body spindles from a '84 Caprice Wagon.

I had it professionally aligned on Thursday by my local shop that sets me and the local Porsche club up for SCCA racing. They were very happy with the job BC and I did. The big question was the amount of shims that would be needed without using GW upper arms. Here's what I got with a general "street" alignment, not a Pro-Touring type with lots of negative camber:

Camber Right .5 deg
Camber Left .5 deg
Caster Right .4 deg
Caster Left .8 deg
Toe Right .10"
Toe Left .10"

If I measure the shim pack, the back of both sides is just less than 3/4", and the fronts both have just less than 1/2". That beats the Global West claim of "will require over 1-1/4 inches of shims (if your lucky) with probable steering column or exhaust interference." Well, I guess I beat that.
Now, this is on a car with a good frame, so it is possible that you could have problems. Interestingly enough, my alignment guy told me if we hadn't used the offset arms, we would've used even less shims, but he was very happy that with the extra room, there was extra adjustment for later if I want to dial the front end in differently. He is also convinced that in about 6 months he'll be able to take out a few shims once the front gets settled to the new parts.

At any rate, there you have it; I didn't use the GW arms, and it worked. BTW, I'm not anti-GW, their parts are beautiful, but I am on a budget, and couldn't afford them.

If you have any additional questions, please contact me. My website also has all of the parts listed that were used, so check there for those if you are interested.

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David Reinecke - aka - FINE 68
1968 Chevelle 300 Sport Coupe Deluxe
www.geocities.com/jdreinecke (http://www.geocities.com/jdreinecke)

[This message has been edited by dreinecke (edited 07-06-2001).]

Dave that's great information. I've seen it done before but never did it myself. No need to 'cause I have the hard to find original caliper brackets. Can't see forking over the $200.00 places want for those.
Now you gone and proved that money can be saved on the expensive upper arms.
Heard from Bill (BC) that he is going to go to the 8" dual diaphragm booster. I and others have said that this can be done, with a little extra work, without shelling out the $350+ for those custom boosters.

SWEET! I am going to do that for sure!

So are you saying that you could have done the swap to the b-body spindles without even changing to the offset arm?

Do you have headers? If so how much clearance do you have with the offset bar?

What was the total cost for this swap minus the sway bars?

thanks!

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Chris Dagenais
Saskatchewan
'71 Malibu with a home built 454!
"Salad and vegetables are what food eat!"
My Page (http://www.ycworld.net)

After talking with Bill and drawing it out on paper, we still think the offset arms reversed is the best way to go.

As for the cost, hmm. I spent about $1200 for the suspension and brakes together I think. I'll break out the cost of everything and post it later tonight. If I had to guess, I'd say $500 for the brakes in total.

I'm running stock exhaust manifolds. I have tons of room left. I'm also running a small block, but don't think it would be an issue, unless it's a big block. I'll see about measuring that tonight too.

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David Reinecke - aka - FINE 68
1968 Chevelle 300 Sport Coupe Deluxe
www.geocities.com/jdreinecke (http://www.geocities.com/jdreinecke)

Thanks, i'm running a 454 with 1 7/8 tube headers right now, and I don't know how much clearance I have.

Do you have any idea how much closer the offset shaft is to the headers than the stock shaft was?

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Chris Dagenais
Saskatchewan
'71 Malibu with a home built 454!
"Salad and vegetables are what food eat!"
My Page (http://www.ycworld.net)

Chris, I'll measure them when I get home.

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David Reinecke - aka - FINE 68
1968 Chevelle 300 Sport Coupe Deluxe
www.geocities.com/jdreinecke (http://www.geocities.com/jdreinecke)

Think I'll jump in here,

Chris,
the problem with headers should not be the iner shafts, but possibly the ends on the upper control arms where the end links nount to. Overall, I'd say you are bringing the upper control arm in approx. 1" from where is was before. Using the offset inner shaft, you are actually putting the offset towards the wheel, not away as would be in the 'normal' use of the offsets. This means that the inner shaft is actually further away from the headers or anything than the ends. The closest thing to being in the way is the steering shaft, maybe David could measure the distance from the offset shaft to the steering shaft.

Gandolf,
In case you didn't know, David redid his rear suspension at the same time, so I think alot of the $1200 was the new rear lower control arms, rear sway bar, KYBs, etc. Outside of a few minor cost adjustments from wrong parts, etc., I think he did real well when you look at the GW page and realize the same thing in a kit with USED spindles runs over $1,800!!

Hope that helps,
Bill C.


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Bill C.
'71 SS (now with 467BBC)
'70 Nova 350/700r4
ACES #2780
Colo Spgs, CO

I just completed the same swap but using Hotchkis upper control arms. Everything else for the swap is the same so you should be able to back the cost of the tubular a-arms or other parts you dont need. I was going to go without the tubular a-arms but figured my luck it wouldnt work and I would have to do it over again. Since this is my daily driver I couldnt afford the time if I messed it up.
Hope this helps.

p.s. I fully believe the conversion can be done without special arms. Height of the car (lowering helps) and differences in frame sag will vairy the results. I decided I would upgrade for the full performance benefits while I was doing the labor cuz it would only be an additional couple hundered dollars more to upgrade (if you back out the cost of the new poly bushings, upper balljoints and offset shafts) you would need to buy anyways.
http://www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum7/HTML/002712.html

David, I have two questions for you.
First, you said you used B-body ball joints, did you have to have them machined at all? Everything I've read about the swap says they need .080 machined off them, it would be much easier if they didn't. Secondly, I noticed on your webpage you said you are using a manual master cylinder. Does this affect brake performance at all, it seems I never hear about discs without power assist but that is exactly what I want.
I thinks I am definately going to do this swap, I was already planning to rebuild my suspension, and the front clip is off making it easy to access. Thanks,

Rob


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Now: 67 Malibu 4-door
283/PG
In 5 years: 69 COPO/427

[This message has been edited by COPO427 (edited 07-07-2001).]

Update...

Chris, as for the measurments, Bill is right, it really depends on the end of the arm, not the bolts. I have 1" between the arm and my exhaust manifold on the back, and 2" clearance in the front of the arm. The steering arm is close, but not even close to touching. It looks to be about 1/2" of clearance with that. Hope that helps.

Chuck, glad to hear you got yours on and working, I know mine being a daily also, thats a big concern!

Rob, I went manual disc, since I had manual drums. Honestly, it would have been easier to do the power ones, but that said, it works great! The master cylinder I used is Non-power Disk from 1975-1980 Camaro Car Quest #BPR 20-1751. I did have to get an even shorter rod than my car originally had. I don't know the part off that, it came out of a box we pilfered in Bill's garage. So, that might be a hit and miss. The other option would be to adjust the rod. As far as turning the bottom ball joint, it wasn't necessary on mine. My machine shop did it though when the pressed the bushings in for me.

Ok, cost:

Master Cylinder 24.00
Brake hoses (2) 83.00
1LE Rotors (2) 145.00
Wheel studs (10)14.52
Banjo bolts (2) 8.00
Brake spindles, calipers (cores), prop valve, etc. 50.00
Calipers (preloaded) (2) 80.00
Labor to press new studs 30.00

Brake total 434.52

A6 Bearings (2) 12
A3 Bearings (2) 17.35
Outer Tie Rods (2) 47.46
PST Super Poly front end kit 359
Springs (4) 140
KYB Shocks 100
Rear sway bar/control arm kit 275
Suspension total 950.81

Grand Total 1385.33

I chewed up some money on the rear sway bar setup with the control arms, but since I couldn't find any nice ones locally, I just bought them anyway. The brakes were actually pretty cheap overall. The extra tie rod ends are due to my mis-ordering them from PST. So, I'll see about sending those units back.

Overall it is a great conversion! The car handles great, and brakes even better. I am trying to get used to throwing a car this size around. It handles like a new car.


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David Reinecke - aka - FINE 68
1968 Chevelle 300 Sport Coupe Deluxe
www.geocities.com/jdreinecke (http://www.geocities.com/jdreinecke)

"Banjo bolts (2) 8.00"
Oh, you Colorado guys are rich. Next time you are boneyard picking, check out the Chrysler mini-vans. Rows of that fine equipment down here. They use the same diameter and length as Chevy but have a 9/16 hex head on them. On a bad day they are 4 for a dollar. LOL
John

Yeah John, that is ridiculous, but Dave's rich! LOL!

Thanks for the tip on the bone yard stuff, but is that the same for a stock Chevelle, or for later cars?? One thing I found out is that it looks like GM changed the size of the banjo bolts sometime in the 70's, even tho they are the same threads. The later ones have a smaller (7/16 I think) head on them and the taper is a little different. Also, the fitting on the brake line are thicker, so the banjos are a touch longer.

Maybe I'll pull one just to play next time I'm at the junk yard...

Bill C.

Haha i'll take the 2 minute drive to the chevy dealership and pay the $4 rather than making the 20 minute trip to the scrap yard and 15-20 minutes of finding removing a bolt just so I can get an old rusted bolt for 50 cents http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

If I needed 10-15 of them then that would be a different story http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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Chris Dagenais
Saskatchewan
'71 Malibu with a home built 454!
"Salad and vegetables are what food eat!"
My Page (http://www.ycworld.net)

Chris
It was part joke to Bill and Dave and part information. Yeah Bill, they will fit a "72" caliper.
The Chevy dealer parts area here is not open on Sunday. A lot of times my local pick-a-part is the only place I can do my Sunday shopping. Rust on banjo bolts?? This is Southern Cailfornia.

Stoopid question time...What is an offset shaft?

Tim

An offset shaft is the mounting cross shaft on the upper control arm which is "Offset" to one side to allow more flexibility in aligning. This way you can help reduce some of the additional shims which are usually required when changing to a tall spindle.

I have just bought myself a set of spindles from a Buick Le Sabre,and i want to know if the upper arm needs to be shimmed for more positive camber or negative?Sorry for the stupid question,but positive means,that the arm needs to pushed more outwards,right?One more thing,do these cars have "5 on 5 wheels studs pattern,vs."4.75 x 5?
By the way,which tie rod ends fit and upper ball joints?

Thanks in advance
Halldor

[This message has been edited by halldor (edited 07-12-2001).]

I used 73 LeSabre spindles on mine.
Moog ES426R outer tie rods will work fine.
Yes they are 5x5 bolt pattern, you can replace them with 96 Camaro 1LE rotors which have the 4.75 pattern but with 12mm lugs.
Since the spindles are taller, you will need to add more shims to bring the camber/caster back into alignment and the upper balljoint wont be quite straight. I believe you can use the standard upper balljoint for the LeSabre, I got new tubular arms.
Heres some links to help
http://www.mich.com/~crescend/drm2dsc/ http://www.angelfire.com/tx/lonestarclassics/tallspindle.htm http://www.angelfire.com/tx/lonestarclassics/FAQs.html http://home.earthlink.net/~cjcarri/brkswap/brkswap.htm http://members.tripod.com/CutlassFreak/discs.htm http://www.geocities.com/skullmobile/brakes.htm http://www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum7/HTML/002712.html

OOps typo....Moog ES2033RL/TRW ES2033R (1964-70 models), and Moog ES427R 1971/72 models) will fit

Thanks Chuck thats excactly what i was looking for,however,i measured my discs today
and to my surprise i found out they are only 10.75 http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif,but still larger than std.Chevelle,right?The bolt circle seems to be
4 3/4 http://www.chevelles.com/forum/confused.gif.does that mean i have the ´77 A-body spindles?
HR

halldor,
10.75" or what everyone calls 11" is the standard disk rotor size for stock Chevelles and just about every other GM car made with disk brakes. There is nothing wrong with them and they work good. Going to 12" brakes will not give you a great improvement in braking, but you might notice slightly better braking. The main benefit to doing this conversion is for the better suspension geometry and thus better handling. It just so happens that if you are using the taller spindles, then the option is there to go to 12" brakes for not too much more money or trouble IF you pick the correct spindles. The spindles MUST come from a car that had 12" disks from the factory. If you really feel you need the 12" brakes and have trouble finding a set of spindles, let me know as I have seen several donor cars in the junk yards around here.

Hope that helps.
Bill C.

Hey, Would the installation be the same on a '69?

Darren,

It is IDENTICAL. Enjoy!

I've got a work in progress Word document with all the part numbers necessary to swap B-body spindles onto 64 to 72 cars. Also has some notes and alignment specs that I have found so far.

If anyone wants to help me out I still need part numbers for the offset control arm shafts and for the idler arm and drag link for 71 to 72 cars. Moog part numbers are about the best.

When I'm done I hope to create a complete pdf document with notes and pictures too.

Peter

Would it be possible to lower the car after doing the conversion?

Darren,

On my '68, using stock a-arms, the car dropped about 1.5-1.75". Not sure if I'd lower it anymore. I love the stance of the car right now!

Been a long time since I've been around these parts........

I've been involved for the most part these last few years with my Grand National leaving the chevelles in storage and collecting parts.

But to the point........ the GN guys get tubular UCA's to do this swap from a variatey of Stock Car fabrication places which are said to be as nice as.........if not better built than those widely known available.........plus, if I'm not wrong, they can be had for @ $80 or so a pair.

If this sounds interesting to anyone, I'll check the archives and get some info.