I'm thinking about placing a steel channel across the tops of 6 ceiling joists above my carport (garage without a door).

Seems to me this would be strong enough to lift an engine using a chain hoist attached to a bolt in the center of the beam.

Any thoughts?

keep the redneck jokes to a minimum ;)
I used a 1 ton comealong to take mine out that was connected to the support work for the attic door in my garage(collectively about three joist distrubuting the wieght)and it worked fine.
Go for it. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by knownothing:
keep the redneck jokes to a minimum ;)
I expected something like this. But not from a 'yat. ;)

Man drop the 250 bucks, and get an engine hoist!!!
I did the eiling beam deal with a comealong for years!! When I finally went in halfs with a guy to buy ourselfs one, I thought it was sent from heaven.

It it SO much nicer. Eaiser to use, safer. you can roll the engine any direction you want it, and can leave the vehicle stationary. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I have an A-frame on casters, so hoisting an engine and moving it around aren't any problem. The trouble is that the A-frame doesn't fit well under my carport.

I just used my "joist hoist" to lift the block from the deck, and it was easier than any cherry picker I've ever used.

$250 is a lot of money to spend for "convenience". The A-frame works fine for installing the engine in the car.

I really don't know. Wood holds a lot more than most people think it does. A few questions come to mind.

What are these joists - 2x4, 2x6?
16" oc or 24" oc?
How far are they spanning, and how far in from the bearing beam or house would your steel go?

Since you said you'd put the steel over six joists, it sounds like you'd be running the steel perpendicular to the front of the house, and maybe 8' max in from where the joists are supported. If that's the case, and the board which supports the joists where they connect to your house is nailed or lagged securely, I'd guess you'd be alright.

If it's 2 cars wide, you could slap together a short temporary wall or just a couple of struts somewhere near the middle of the span for a little insurance.

You could always put the steel up there and get 3 to 5 people to hang from it to test it out.

Another approach would be to make a header to go the same direction as the joists (that's my plan for when the time comes). If it's an open ceiling you could use a 3x8 or 2x10 header setting on the outside beam (the closer to a supporting column, the better) and run it towards your house. It wouldn't have to span the entire distance, and you could support the inside end of the header with a couple of T-nailed 2x6's running from the header to the floor. Might not be a bad idea to do that on the outside too, depending on how much of an angle you have to put on the header to get it to slide onto the beam. If you try that, I'd also tack a 8' 2x4 to the underside of the joists to stabilize them, and run some 45* bracing from the T-nailed 2x6 up to that 2x4. That should be enough to keep things where they are.

Yeah, like Glenn says, support the steel beam from the ground. Maybe screw a couple of sheet metal posts supports on it (or make your own.) Something to hold a couple of beams under the ends of the steal beam, so they don't pop out and fall.
Cut the wood 4x4's or 4x6's to length (ground to beam) and shove them under the corners of the steel beam.
If baby elephants can dance on it, it's strong enough.

Chad I have lifted engines, transmissions even the body off of an El Camino using my trussed carport. On the engines and trannys I layed a 8' 4x4 across 3 trusses (2' on center)and wrapped a chain around it for the lift point. When it came time to lift the body I screwed 2x4's vertically from the bottom of the truss to the top about 18" on either side of the 4x4 on all 3 trusses the 4x4 spanned. I think it is probably strong enough to lift a whole car. (ex wife has the house now so I will never get to try.) Inside the garage I sandwich the main header with with 2 twenty foot long 8" wide pieces of channel iron supported on the ends with 4x8 posts, I just didn't have enough height to lift engines without taking the wheels off the car.

The joists are 2x4 on 16" centers.

I figure since I walk on them and I weigh a little over 200#, each joist is capable of supporting my weight for a short time.

So if I spread the load out over six of them, it's much stronger. I wouldn't have the engine hanging from it for more than 20 minutes.

I've already used a lag bolt with an eye to lift the block. I figure since I can lift the block by myself, the joist can hold it. It holds just fine.

Thanks for the suggestions. I like the idea of supporting the beam on both ends with posts. An I-beam with a trolley would be ideal. Something to think about. If I had this setup I'd never need the A-frame again.

I did one of these setups in my basement. Took out a wall and replaced it with a 6" H-Beam. Then bought two ingersal rand material handleing beam clamps and put on two chain hoists. I can lift the body off the frame and back in 5 minutes, works great. If you want some pictures I can email them over. I did calculate the loads for the beam, it is achored in the ground with steel columns on the end to support it, also cross tied into poured concrete walls on house. I dont even get a 1/32 of deflection with I pulled a fully loaded up 454 with all accesories and a TH400 attached.

I just bought a 2 ton folding hoist from Harbor freight for $159. You can get it wherever you need it, roll it out to the driveway, whatever. To me for the price it's not worth messing with anything else.

- Doug

I'm glad this topic was brought up.

I'll try a variation 64elcamino's idea. I'd thought about that before, but was a little leery of relying on the bottoms of the trusses. They span 26' and the ceiling joist sections are made from something like a 2x4x8, a 2x6x10 (attic storage), and another 2x4x8.

I scrapped that idea at first because the butt joints are within a foot or so of where the weight will be, but I believe that with some reinforcing and strutting between the trusses and the floor in the middle of the span it'll work.

Sure beats wrestling a 14' double 2x10 on a stepladder. Plus, it'll be permanent and take up no space.

Glenn-
Be careful with wood trusses! The design load is only 1# per square foot on the botttom chord. You probably have metal gussetts pressed into the joints. Its one of those deals where, if it works, consider yourself lucky, otherwise, you will have a construction project on your hands ! graemlins/angry.gif You can literally rip the lower chord out and the truss will let the roof fall in. Especially if you have a snow load, double roof or additional weight up there. It should be noted that unless its a "attic" type truss, there shouldn't be any lumber, pipe, etc. up there in storage. (additional loads).
Hope it helped !

Jeff

Well said Jeff. Phil, I'd consider you very lucky! ;) And I never spec 2x4s for anything horizontal. The darn things sag under their own weight since they're usually stud grade and meant to be loaded vertically. I know these are in tension but I wouldn't do it. Convenience may have a price but isn't safety worth $160?

Jeff and Mark, thanks for the input. There's no way I'm going to try it without making some reinforcements to the trusses. I know better. I'd like to hear what you think about my plan. This will be a little lengthy, but it has to be for me to describe it.

I was looking at the trusses yesterday thnking of differerent ways to go about it, and noticed three things I really didn't like.
1) they're made from #3 lumber
2) most of the angled joints are poor (gaps covered with gussets)
3) the ideal location is right where there's a butt joint in the chord, the same gusset is at the bottom of the webbing; so four pieces end right there. It's like the bottom of an underlined V.

I was trying to imagine how the loads or forces are distributed - wondering where the weakest link is - wondering how the other sections of the truss would react if another broke. I was also wondering if it would be better to have the chain to pull the engine right beside one truss, or have it between two trusses so that one isn't overstressed. The way I want to do this will put the weight right in the bottom of the V formed by the webbing on the back 1/2 of the trusses, that is the weight of the engine will be trying to pull itself through the gusset where the joints are. There are two reasons I picked this location; 1, it's a good distance from the wall for pulling the engine, 2, since there's wood there, it'll be easy to reinforce since there's something there to reinforce. I came up with two possible plans to do this and also address the three problem areas metioned above.

Plan A
This takes the least wood, since it would probably be a bad idea to throw another 1,000 lbs up there to hold 500. This applies to four trusses, two on both sides of where the chain will go. Just about everything will be glued with construction adhesive and screwed with 2" or 3" coarse thread drywall screws.

Fill gaps in loose joints with wedges.

To reinforce the gussets I'd use two 12" x 24" pieces of 3/4" plywood to overlap the joints 12". I can't overlap any more than 12" unless some plywood used for storage is removed. In between the plywood I'd cut blocks to fill in between the chords and webbing. This will make it solid for 12' x 24" at the joints and should be a lot more rigid.

On the rafter part of the middle two trusses, I'll add the longest length of 2x6 or 2x8 that I can get up there.

Add vertical 2x4's, as already suggested, from the chords to the rafters on all four trusses.

Add similar plywood gussets to joints at top of webbing.

Add collar ties or fill between webbing and rafters (to resist the rafter pulling down)

After all that, lay a double 2x8 across all four trusses in the reinforced V. This is where the chain will go.

From the bottom of the ceiling to the floor is about 128". I'd screw a 2x10 flat against the ceiling (has sheetrock which isn't light) below the V's (need to drill holes for the chain) and have a 2x6 attached vertically, sort of like a piece of metal angle, to make a pocket to recieve the upper end of a T-nailed double 2x6 strut which would go from the ceiling to the floor. Since the strut will be coming down at a bit of an angle to miss the car, it'd be strutted off against something solid, like a wall, and braced so that it won't kick out...maybe another strut on the other side of the car too.

I believe the struts will take the weight, and the bracing of the trusses will keep them where they are now.

Plan B
This is a different approach from the top, but the same from the bottom. I was planning on doing this to four trusses, but now I'm thinking that two will be ok since the struts will be taking the weight.

Same joint reinforcing as Plan A, except that the plywood will only go on one side of the V-joint (there'll be a 2x10 on the other side).

Glue and screw a 2x10 (I have about 6 extra 16' 2x10's) to the chords.

On the outside, the trusses will be cut so they'll fit on the top plate of the wall.

On the inside, head off the 2x10's with another 2x10 which has been notched to slide over the chords...maybe notch the header to span four trusses since the notches will be for the 2x6 part of the chords.

Then, set another 2x10 on top of the 2x6 chords and attach that to the other header. They should lap by about 3 3/4".

Run a double 2x8 as in Plan A for the chain.

Same deal as Plan A from below with the T-nailed 2x6 struts.

I think it'll hold.

Any thoughts?

This is one time when 'overkill' is acceptible. The heavier the better. The 2 x 4s would scare the hell out of me, even though you are spreading the weight across six of them. If they were 2 x 6s, I'd say it would work. More is better in this case. And I would venture to guess that you need larger joists.

Randy, the 2x4's scare me too.

This would be easier to explain with a picture or drawing. I don't think the 2x4 chords will be doing anything that they aren't doing now because of the angled double 2x6's going between the ceiling and the floor.

I was going to beef up the gussets at the V-joint for two main reasons;
1) in hopes of helping them hold together
2) to provide support for the double 2x8 which will support the chain - the double 2x8 will be supported by the double 2x6 struts directly below the trusses

All that other stuff may even be unnecessary if it's supported well from below, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I wouldn't even consider doing this relying on the trusses without the struts. It's so much easier to defy gravity from below than above...in this case anyway.

trusses are designed to divert the downward forces to the outside points where they land on the bearing walls. Unless they are specially made for it they are not designed for a live load on the bottom chrord. No way would I be lifting an engine with a truss, especially one with a 2x4 bottom chord. Break one truss chord and you have compromised the whole thing. If you want to lift engines I would put up a LVL beam or steel I beam and do it right, JMO but I wouldnt even consider using a truss for lifting.

Hit the rental center and fork over the $40 for a day's use of a cherry picker. You'll spent more than that imagineering a rig, not even including your time.

A whole lot more if the thing caves in on the car.

I think I'll stay away from the trusses. The main reason I wanted it up there was for the extra height. I didn't want to be pulling a motor and run out of room to raise it. Otherwise I'd have to move a canoe and a light to be able to run a 12' beam across the car.

Instead of that it looks like there's room for a double 2x10x10 header to be high enough without moving a bunch of stuff. It'll attach to the wall in front of the car and the end result will be like pulling the car up into a 10' wide front porch with no floor.

I definitely agree on the truss stuff... Don't use the lower chord to lift anything... Sure it might work, and might have before for your buddy, but with the variables in wood and assembly, you never know...

As for standard ceiling joists, personally I'd stay away if possible... At least anchor the steel channels to all of the joists used (all 6?) with bolts/screws/etc, don't just set the channels up there loose, or only attached to a few joists. Maybe add some 2X4 blocking in-between the joists you plan to carry the load... The joists will be taking the force in the 4" (or 6")direction, but if they are allowed to flex or twist, they could easily fail. Tie them all together. This will help some...

Glenn,
How much will all this wood (and time) cost? The main concern is that when you change structure within the engineered truss, you change ALL load characteristics. Including "elastic" dimensions. If your decided on going this route, try 3/4" plywood glued/screwed to the sides of the truss. Faster,easier, stronger. But I'd still hate to be the ones to tell your buddies, that you trashed your place. Besides,,,when you buy a cherry picker, your the envy of your buddies, and you can "rent" to the Not so buddies !! Recoup that investment. Either in cash or favors!!
I'd just hate to see something bad happen for a couple hundred bucks.

That plan with the trusses didn't really put any weight on the trusses. The 2x6's directly beneath the webs of the trusses would transfer the load to the concrete floor. I don't see how the trusses would be under any additional stress. The reinforcing was going to make things solid for the double 2x8 that the chain would go around. The double 2x8's would be on solid blocking at the bottom of the web, and that would be supported by 2x6's directly below. Take out the 2x6 and there'd be a problem.

I'd be more concerned about the extra weight of the 2x10's scabbed onto the chords after the struts were removed than the supported trusses with an engine hanging from the double 2x8.

Anyway, I like the porch header w/o a porch idea better. The double 2x10x10' beam should be plenty, and it will provide enough lifting height. It'll be easier to set up, but there'll be more parts to store. No big deal - everything will fit in the shed.

I have a bunch of wood and I don't want to have to pull the camper shell off the truck so I could rent a cherry picker.