Stopped by the Chebby dealer yesterday down here in San Diego to check out the Silverado SS. Nice looking truck - a little too much plastic for me personally, but it looks nice. Who knows how it actually performes, I wanted to take it for a test drive, but they were closing, and wouldn't let me - go figure.

Anyhow - was chatting with the salesman, and he said they heard this week that the Chevelle SS is supposed to be delivered in May. I gave him my # and told him to call me the day they get one - I'd be really interested in seeing what they throw on that thing, if it really is coming out.

Originally posted by SNFU Mobile:
Stopped by the Chebby dealer yesterday down here in San Diego to check out the Silverado SS. Nice looking truck - a little too much plastic for me personally, but it looks nice. Who knows how it actually performes, I wanted to take it for a test drive, but they were closing, and wouldn't let me - go figure Go to www.fullsizechevy.com (http://www.fullsizechevy.com) to see about the performance of the SS Silverado.

Ive heard about a "malibu SS", but no "chevelle SS".

The malibu SS is just the same front drive malibu with a new engine (I heard made by honda).

I think we will have to wait a few years for one based on the new GTO chassis with rear drive.

LIke "most" car salesmen, he's clueless. Here's what the thinks is a "Chevelle". Been all over TV.
http://www.goissca.org/2004_impala_ss.htm

Originally posted by d1_bradley:
Like "most" car salesmen, he's clueless. Here's what the thinks is a "Chevelle". Been all over TV.
http://www.goissca.org/2004_impala_ss.htm Yeah, he's probably hung up on the old Chevelle vs. Malibu thing...all Malibus are Chevelles but not all Chevelles are Malibus. It may just be the pictures, but the new Impala SS sure does look good!

While I was on the Power Tour I spoke with John Moss and a few on his staff throughout the week. The news is that there are NO plans for a Camaro comeback. The GTO is the Camaro 'replacement' and there may be a RWD Chevelle SS built on the new GTO platform. The success of the GTO will sway the development of any further V-8 RWD cars except for the Cadillac and Corvette.
A BIG emphisis is being placed on swaying current ricers to the small GM cars. GMPP will offer factory developed high performance parts for GM cars, including turbo kits. Honda, Toyota and other Jap companies offer nothing. It's all aftermarket for them. Pretty savvy move if you ask me.

You know, Jimmy, I lost a lot of respect for Jon Moss recently and think it's probably good that he's retiring. GM has TOTALLY abandoned cars in favor of trucks, EXCEPT in the case of Cadillac. How is it that Ford continues to have the Mustang, and it actually sells? Why is it that they can have vehicles like the Mercury Marauder and the Crown Vic Police Interceptor and Crown Vic sport package? These may not be your choice of a car, but I'd rather have those cars than a damn FWD Impala, supercharged or not. No, GM would have to pull some real rabbits out of the hat to win my business, and that of most enthusiasts in my book. And I own two Chevelles, once owned a 69 Z/28, etc and have never owned a Ford or Chrysler.

It's Jon's job, in my estimation to drive the "excitement" projects, and lately he hasn't been succeeding.

For GM IMHO it's a price issue and quality issue. I have friends with both late model z28's and mustang GT's and to me the quality of the GT is much better. The interior is far superb(ie quality, comfort, etc), the electronics are better(options, guages, etc.. hell the gas meter on the z28 still sways like its the same one in my chevelle), the prices are better, and it just looks better built.

The Firebird was a very nice car inside, looked high quality compared to the camaro's generic stuff, and was also comfortable, unlike the Camaro. And the Firebird was 5-10k more.

Horrible if you ask me. GM needs to focus on reducing costs and increasing the quality and options.

Originally posted by mmcporter:
GM has TOTALLY abandoned cars in favor of trucks, pffft, yeah, and thats working out GREAT :rolleyes:

Sorry Midnight, I don't think so. Again, I don't like waving the Ford flag as I am a "GM Guy", but Ford has managed to have the best selling truck and a choice of a ponycar, other rear drive stuff (Crown Vic, Lincoln Connie, LS, Marauder). Putting too many eggs in the car basket can really hurt if the gas goes up to > $2.00 for any sustained period. Plus, if GM is doing things so well, why are they publishing full page "I'm Sorry for the Poor Quality" ads lately? No, just because they have the Corvette and some trucks doesn't mean that GM is doing things right.

Originally posted by mmcporter:
Sorry Midnight, I don't think so. Again, I don't like waving the Ford flag as I am a "GM Guy", Note the :rolleyes: , indicating sarcasm?

We're in TOTAL agreement. graemlins/beers.gif

Originally posted by mmcporter:
Sorry Midnight, I don't think so. You might want to read Beaux's post again. You might have missed something ;)

Joe

Sorry Beaux. The General is pissing me off and I took it out on you. I missed the Sarcasm!!

Mr. Porter, sir. Your loss of respect for John Moss is unfounded. John Moss isn't the Product line decision maker for GM. He's only the guy developing the high performance stuff in a small division. I'm sure if it were up up to him, the General Motors product line would be very different! Trust me, he's one of us! A true gear head to the bone and an outstanding gentleman, I assure you.
GM sells what it can to the masses to make a profit. The last generation Camaros and Firebirds are some of the best performing cars ever produced. Mustangs don't stand a chance against them performance wise in stock or near stock form. Why does Ford sell more Mustangs? Who the heck knows! Camaro and Firebird sells went down. Why? The young market who used to buy them are now buying Hondas, Mitsubishis and other crap. Why? The federal government changed the way cars were to be made overnight and US manufacturers made crap for the next 20 years. Japanese cars were already being made in the manner that fuel efficient cars should be. Lots of people bought them. Then they gave thier old Honda with 150,000 miles on them to their kids. The kids grew up with these cars, and thus, brand loyalty grew with the ricers and the younger market that could be buying muscle cars.

Originally posted by Jimmy P:
Why does Ford sell more Mustangs? Who the heck knows! Camaro and Firebird sells went down. Why? The young market who used to buy them are now buying Hondas, Mitsubishis and other crap. Why? Having owned late model camaros for the last 20 years, (IMO) the performance wasn't the problem. GM never put any money into advertising the camaro. How can you compare a ricer and a camaro?

Originally posted by mmcporter:
Sorry Beaux. The General is pissing me off and I took it out on you. I missed the Sarcasm!! graemlins/beers.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

OK, I admit it, I was in a Ford dealer Monday. One of our districts bought a van. :rolleyes: So while I'm standing around waiting to sign the papers one of the mental midgets came up and says, "What would it take to get you into that Mustang Cobra vert?" I told him if he'd throw in a new C5, I'd take it, then I'd sell the Mustang to pay all my taxes and gas for the next 10 years. What were the next words out of his mouth? "Well this Cobra has 280 horsepower and will outrun a C5" I just laughed and told him that someday he will understand.

Comparing Camaros with Accords is like comparing Evil Knevil to Bill O'Rielly. The discussion will never make sense.
All I'm saying is that the demographic market for muscle-car buying youngsters is far different than it was 20-30 years ago. The majority of 16-30 year old males out there now have been raised in families that have owned nothing but ricers. That's all they know. It's very sad. Advertising wouldn't have made a difference. It's what kids see on a daily basis that creates sentiment and brand loyalty.
I know when I was a kid, a foreign car was a VW. Junky slow things that crawled about the roads. I relished my desires with the SS 396 Chevelles, Camaros and Hemi Cudas that roamed my neigborhood. I still do today and will forever more. How many 20 year old kids out there today have taken a ride in a big block 4 speed car, let alone even seen one up close?

Originally posted by Jimmy P:
How many 20 year old kids out there today have taken a ride in a big block 4 speed car, let alone even seen one up close? Great point. Nobody has mentioned the fact that insurance on Camaros, 94-96 Impala SS's, etc were and are through the roof. Compare that to a civic or accord. So it may not be purchase price that is the deciding factor but overall cost of the vehicle. Gas, insurance and let us not forget parents that would rather not put their kid in a 300 hp, rear wheel drive stick car.

Kids can buy a civic and mom is happy for the safety, reliability and purchase price. Kids can then mod out said civic right under moms nose and she doesnt know any different other than the car now sounds like daddys 6 hp pushmower. So its compromise as well.

I think both Jimmy P and Midnight have it right. I'm 27 and have been around muscle cars since I was a runt. I think I'm an exception though. As generations pass, more and more kids are growing up around a different breed of cars. Performance has been lacking in most cars for decades. Way back when, everything had a V8, and most were capable of being sleepers.

Also, I don't know if I'm right, but performance seems to cost so much more today. I would love a WS6 'bird, but damn, 30+ large is killer on my bank account. Perhaps the little 4-bangers than being modded, although still not a BBC 4spd, keeps the enthusiasts happy in this day and age.

I bought my '94 Imp SS with 86k on the clock. The only way to own it was to let someone(s) else own it first.

Originally posted by Jimmy P:
All I'm saying is that the demographic market for muscle-car buying youngsters is far different than it was 20-30 years ago. The majority of 16-30 year old males out there now have been raised in families that have owned nothing but ricers. That's all they know. It's very sad. Advertising wouldn't have made a difference. It's what kids see on a daily basis that creates sentiment and brand loyalty.Jim, I think you proved my statement with what you just wrote. If these kids were exposed to the camaro and the firebird on a daily basis they would have know the performance of the two didn't compare. As far as the times being different, I don't ever remember the camaro being advertized as a family car. not many kids are going to be exposed to these cars unless there is a gearhead in the family(some females excluded). These cars don't need a whole lot of tweeking to get them into the 12s. when was the last time you saw a street ricer going that fast without a blower or NAWS(sorry had to). then it becomes a money thing then.

Originally posted by d1_bradley:
"Well this Cobra has 280 horsepower and will outrun a C5" I just laughed and told him that someday he will understand. ??? I guess that I don't understand either,
other than our perhaps niave chevrolet brand name bias.
An svt mustang lists for about $10,000 less than the standard vette. With near vette performance (of course admitedly I don't have any number off hand) and an extra $10,000 in my pocket i'd be the one laughing all the way home in my brand new svt.

Originally posted by the walrus:
i'd be the one laughing all the way home in my brand new svt. Blah, you'd probably just get your ass handed to you on the way home by a Chevelle in full street trim. tongue.gif :D

Originally posted by DaveB:
For GM IMHO it's a price issue and quality issue. I have friends with both late model z28's and mustang GT's and to me the quality of the GT is much better. The interior is far superb(ie quality, comfort, etc), the electronics are better(options, guages, etc.. hell the gas meter on the z28 still sways like its the same one in my chevelle), the prices are better, and it just looks better built.

The Firebird was a very nice car inside, looked high quality compared to the camaro's generic stuff, and was also comfortable, unlike the Camaro. And the Firebird was 5-10k more.

Horrible if you ask me. GM needs to focus on reducing costs and increasing the quality and options. No disrespect ment by this, the camaro and firebird are the same car and if optioned alike cost the same. The firebird interior got the top of the seats chopped off and headrests put in their place and some fancy wings added to the sides of the seats. Other than a few visuals the cars are identical, seating posture is identical, floor boards, leg room, head room, all the same. The gas guage in my '96 works fine and doesn't bounce or sway at all.

Until the '03 cobra (385hp by the way) came out (38K msrp) the mustang couldn't touch the camaro in straight line acceleration or cornering. Funny the '02 Z28 that could be had bottom line options for msrp of $23K is still the top dog in '03 unless you spend $15K more. All the cobra is doing is setting the cost of american performance cars to an all time high. GM did a good job of keeping it affordable with the camaro...

How many 20 year old kids out there today have taken a ride in a big block 4 speed car, let alone even seen one up close? [/QB]i can truly tell you that i am 15 and not only ridden in a few BB 4spd cars but have also worked on them too.

i toally disagree w/ the line up that GM has. why cant GM be like they were 30 years ago? the only reason the buttstangs has more sales over the maro and ta's is becasue GM never advertised for them. and if you say a stang can out run the 4th gen's you are just wrong. and this whole ricer thing i totally hate too. i mean coming from a 15y/o who doesnt like rice its just plan koool IMO.i have always said if i ever get into GM and you see some badass looking muscle cars roaming the streets again ( like a new version of the velle's and maros) you know who did it.

well thats my $0.02 on it


aaron

"The firebird interior got the top of the seats chopped off and headrests put in their place and some fancy wings added to the sides of the seats. "

I'd have to disagree on that. I've been in both a few times and the firebird definately has a much better seat. I'm very uncomfortable in the drivers or passenger seat in a latemodel camaro, but not with a firebird, which leads me to believe they're drastically different, moreso than look. Feels like camaro seats are made out of solid steel, very stiff.

Firebird:
http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?GUID=40df329a-7eb2-6ada-527d-853333ff348e&size=lg

Camaro:
http://ebay2.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_6935aa1813e31546cefa28476dc6f370/i-1.JPG

graemlins/beers.gif

Maybe I got the one that was in the sun too long or somethin tongue.gif

Sorry folks, but I think GM wanted too much money for the birds and camaros. If you don't find $23,000 for a bare bones Z28 expensive, I tip my hat to you. But I can't afford one.

Kevin, the term afordable is different to everyone and if a person can't afford $23k for a Z28 I don't think they could afford $23k for any car!! Relative to other automobiles capable of keeping up with a 4th gen Camaro both straight line and cornering as well as the creature comforts like AC and power windows the $23k is indeed a bargan. A new truck or suv with a V8 is tipping the scales at $30k BMW and others struggle to sell a car for less than $30k. The Dodge PT Cruiser is about $20k in stripped down form and really coesn't count anyway... The Mustang GT is close but more expensive, less expensive mustangs don't come close.

All this is nothing more than conversation though as if you find a Camaro on the dealer showroom a year after it's last been produced there will likely be a $10k dealer markup...

The problem with the Camaro/Firebird, in my opinion, was that it was too long of a design cycle. 82 to 2002 had two body styles. Why buy a new car that looks like it did 8 years ago? Camaro had 4 generations, Mustang has eight, so far.

Dennis,
I agree with you. Its just that I have never seen a stripped down Z/28 at a dealer and never saw one under $28,000. That kind of money isn't an issue to some. It does keep me out of their market though smile.gif

Originally posted by kevin d:
Dennis,
I agree with you. Its just that I have never seen a stripped down Z/28 at a dealer and never saw one under $28,000. That kind of money isn't an issue to some. It does keep me out of their market though smile.gif Yea you aren't gonna attract young people(teens/20's?) with that kind of pricing. And I thought that was the target market for these type of sportscars.

Originally posted by kevin d:
Dennis,
I agree with you. Its just that I have never seen a stripped down Z/28 at a dealer and never saw one under $28,000. That kind of money isn't an issue to some. It does keep me out of their market though smile.gif My 2000 Z28 stripper cost 22K out the door brand new

Originally posted by DaveB:
[QUOTE]Yea you aren't gonna attract young people(teens/20's?) with that kind of pricing. And I thought that was the target market for these type of sportscars. What price range can the avg teen or young 20's afford these days? I bought my first new car at age 22 in 1978 (Honda CVCC) for $4,100 (about $90 per month for 36 months with a good down payment). If the link works here's a list of what you can get new for under $15,000

http://edmunds.com/new/pricerange/under15k/all/index.html?tid=edmunds.n.priceindex.content..1.*

I think the market target for the Camaro is the over 30 set that can't afford a vette or need the rear seat for the young kids.

Sub 15 for many yea.. The highest I see most go are in the 20ish range really. There are exceptions as well, but that's not the majority.

For the most part it depends on how rich mommy and daddy are, or in a few cases are lucky enough to get a higher paying job than the average teenager workin for near min wage in retail/food.

GM built a class car before 73 anything 73 and after in my opinion is poor quality. Gm is now trying to appeal to the kids who had muscle cars in the 60s with their super Cadillacs and Led Zeppelin songs. Fact is, is that GM made an inferior product as compared to Ford for the last 30 years. GM is finally waking up and making some quality products but their idea of these new muscle cars are a joke. That GTO is an insult to the muscle car ERA I hope they don't pin the Chevelle SS badge on it. I have tried GM Cars in my fleet and they don't hold up like my Fords. Ford trucks and products kick ass, they are the most dependable truck on the market.
Just my opinion graemlins/beers.gif

Have you people looked under the hood of a Camaro lately? How do you work on this thing with half the engine in the drivers compartment it's a major deal just changing plugs on these cars. I am a GM fan forever and have a 97 Camaro but it will be a cold day in ---- before I put headers or ant thing else on this car. Cost and insurance are big issues also. my 2 cents

Originally posted by 88502:
Have you people looked under the hood of a Camaro lately? How do you work on this thing with half the engine in the drivers compartment it's a major deal just changing plugs on these cars. I am a GM fan forever and have a 97 Camaro but it will be a cold day in ---- before I put headers or ant thing else on this car. Cost and insurance are big issues also. my 2 cents I have a 95 and a 99, I don't think either are bad to work on. The plugs aren't bad eithter and I am 6'2. Of coarse I have to bend down a little but its not bad. I hate crawling underneath them but that because of the old factor(not the car's age).

Changed the oil and the plugs in my '02 z28 this past friday, the whole operation took 2 hours, it wasn't that bad.

Originally posted by Midnight Marauder:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by the walrus:
i'd be the one laughing all the way home in my brand new svt. Blah, you'd probably just get your ass handed to you on the way home by a Chevelle in full street trim. tongue.gif :D

</font>[/QUOTE]I doubt it :D

Another thing, I personally think the "newer" camaros are ugly. Chevy had to put an LT1 to sell them, yeah they were faster than the Mustang, but so...what's the point. The newer body style killed my interest in them. I've had 3 camaro's, 2-86's (Z-28 & iroc)and a 92-25th Ann Edition, so it's not like I don't like them.
I've had 2 Mustang GT's, a 92 and now I have a '01, bought it brand new. Of course I like all American made cars, but I will not buy a new chevy again. I bought my Chevelle last year, after wanting one since High School (89)and that will be the last chevy I buy. Unless of course, I hit the lottery and buy a 'Vette :D

[/qb][/QUOTE]I doubt it :D

Another thing, I personally think the "newer" camaros are ugly. Chevy had to put an LT1 to sell them, yeah they were faster than the Mustang, but so...what's the point. The newer body style killed my interest in them. I've had 3 camaro's, 2-86's (Z-28 & iroc)and a 92-25th Ann Edition, so it's not like I don't like them.
I've had 2 Mustang GT's, a 92 and now I have a '01, bought it brand new. Of course I like all American made cars, but I will not buy a new chevy again. I bought my Chevelle last year, after wanting one since High School (89)and that will be the last chevy I buy. Unless of course, I hit the lottery and buy a 'Vette :D [/QB][/QUOTE]


Looks are a matter of opinion, some people like them, others dont. Same with Furds and other cars. As far as Chevy having to put the LT1 in them to sell, would you want a performance type car with a dog of an engine? Muttstangs arent perfect either and ARENT as fast as some people think they are. Spend some time at a dragstrip, I do and I see them running mid 14s to mid 15s. My 95 Z28 Convertible ran 13.90 when it had 300 miles on it.
Ron

Originally posted by ToocoolZ28:
I doubt it :D

Another thing, I personally think the "newer" camaros are ugly. Chevy had to put an LT1 to sell them, yeah they were faster than the Mustang, but so...what's the point. The newer body style killed my interest in them. I've had 3 camaro's, 2-86's (Z-28 & iroc)and a 92-25th Ann Edition, so it's not like I don't like them.
I've had 2 Mustang GT's, a 92 and now I have a '01, bought it brand new. Of course I like all American made cars, but I will not buy a new chevy again. I bought my Chevelle last year, after wanting one since High School (89)and that will be the last chevy I buy. Unless of course, I hit the lottery and buy a 'Vette :D [/QB][/QUOTE]


Looks are a matter of opinion, some people like them, others dont. Same with Furds and other cars. As far as Chevy having to put the LT1 in them to sell, would you want a performance type car with a dog of an engine? Muttstangs arent perfect either and ARENT as fast as some people think they are. Spend some time at a dragstrip, I do and I see them running mid 14s to mid 15s. My 95 Z28 Convertible ran 13.90 when it had 300 miles on it.
Ron [/QB][/QUOTE]

That is true, and that's my opinion noone said you had to like it. Your slowmaro might have ran 13.90s at the track, yes, I've spent time at the track, but that don't mean ur Convertible is any better that a FORD MUSTANG GT/COBRA. My '01 GT ran 14's at the track, with a smaller engine, than a slowmaro,and it had 800 miles on it. I spend time at the track...so, again, what's the point? I've seen camaro's win, and i've seen Ford's win, and an all wheel drive eagle talon beat them all. So, now who's better?
As far as the Mustang not being as fast as people think, have you driven one? If so, maybe your hatred for them clouded your senses and you don't/didn't want to admit, "some" are faster than a sleighmaro. Every car can be beat, and every driver can be beaten. graemlins/waving.gif

First of all, I didnt insult your car or any other car and I dont hate Fords, I just like what I like. If you dont want to read anyone elses opinions then you came to the wrong place.I think you are awfully defensive, there must be a reason :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Ron

Originally posted by ToocoolZ28:
First of all, I didnt insult your car or any other car and I dont hate Fords, I just like what I like. If you dont want to read anyone elses opinions then you came to the wrong place.I think you are awfully defensive, there must be a reason :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Ron No Sir, I'm not being defensive here, I have no reason to be. I have a Ford and it being called a
Furd or Muttstang is insulting to me, but I won't be defensive. I'll get over it, just like you should get over my opinion, because if you can't, you are in the wrong place. :rolleyes:
I'm done graemlins/hurray.gif , because I don't want to get into a pi**ng contest over what's what and whose opinion isn't being respected. I'll just be wasting my time if I do. Take care