The information contained in this post is solely my opinion. This post is a follow up to the thread I started about a week ago concerning value (asking price) of old cars as relating to originality. This post will contain my thoughts on the subject and are not meant to insult anyone or offend anyone they are merely observations of what I see as unproductive trends in the old car hobby.

As some of you may know, I've been on a hunt to find a new classic car. Even before this search began I had noticed trends concerning value on cars for sale but it was a distant irritation since I personally wasn't in the market. Well now that I am actively in the market the irritation level has increased dramatically.

To refresh, the previous topic started like this:
"Let's say you are looking at two identical 1965 Malibu SS cars. Neither car has an engine or transmission and the originals are long gone. One has a history of having been an L79 car and one has a history of only being a V8 car (let's say it had a 300hp/327ci originally to keep things as similar as possible). Neither car has paperwork but their histories are not in question. Condition, options, etc. are all the same on the two cars. If you buy either one you can hot rod them or build them as a date-correct restoration or whatever you like. Would you be willing to pay more the the L79 car than the other one? If so, why? If you were selling them would you ask a higher price for the L79 car? If so, why?"

Before my search for a 2-door wagon began I had read an ad for a particular '65 2-door wagon. The thing was a full blown race car with wheel tubs in the rear, a roll bar and a wild big block engine. The car was rough around the edges and the price was incredibly high. The cause for the high price? Not so much the value of the race car drivetrain or that it was a 2-door wagon, but that it was originally an L79 car. Well big deal I thought. The original engine is long gone, the car is absolutely nothing like it was originally and it would be incredibly costly to try to restore the car to even a correct appearing date correct car especially considering the asking price for the car itself not to mention the cost of rebuilding the body and chasing down all the correct components.

In the end, I have absolutely no idea why the fact that the car was originally an L79 car had any bearing on it's perceived value. (No wonder that car is STILL for sale almost 2 years later.)

More recently I have been looking at two '65 2-door wagon project cars. One of them got me very excited as it was reported to be an original L79 car. The engine was pulled in 1965 but reportedly the original engine was mostly intact and available with the car! The asking price was rather steep but imagine what an original L79 2-door wagon would be like to own! Simply incredible. I simply had to have that car. The other car available was just as solid, just as complete (both were projects not drivers) but the second car was priced less than half as much as the L79 car (both from the same seller).

As the story unfolds it turns out that the L79 car either was not originally an L79 car or the engine that is with it is not the original engine. The engine that is with the car has some L79 parts on it but the numbers indicate a 250hp/327ci. The car is still incredibly solid and would be a great basis for a project. The seller still believes the car to be an original L79 car regardless of what the engine codes say (he now acknowledges the engine must not be the original engine). In short, the price of this car will not be budged and he continues to try to find a home for the car with the understanding it is an original L79 car.

Personally, I believe the engine IS the original because the dates match the car and the engine codes match the car and that it simply was made into an "L79" back in the day but was originally a 250hp car in reality. The original owner was a mechanic at a Chevy dealership and could have built his own "L79" for all I know. The seller also got a little frustrated with my drop in interest after the engine information was determined.

Maybe it's just me trying to be self serving (I'd still like to own the car but at a purchase price more in line with what it is now known to be or not to be) but I do not understand why the seller is maintaining the incredibly high asking price for a car that is either not what it is claimed to be or at the very least does not any longer have the original drivetrain. I am still interested in buying the other car he has for sale since the price is more reasonable and it's drivetrain is a long gone mystery so I could simply hot rod it to my personal delight without being concerned with originality.

But in general I have recently seen LOTS of cars being sold as original this or that "but the original drivetrain is gone". I simply do not understand asking a premium for a car that is simply no longer what it is claimed to have been originally. In my mind an LS6 car is an LS6 car because of the LS6. Doesn't that make sense? I personally don't see a lot of difference in value between an original LS6 car with a non original LS6 and an original L34 car which now has a non original LS6. Both are great cars but not any different in value.

I'm not saying a car without it's original parts (and my L79 car has lots of non original parts in the body!) has no value. What I am saying is that an original L78, LS6, L79 or whatever car certainly loses a good portion of it's hertigage value (in respect to restoration) if the original stuff is gone.

Agree or disagree?

Rich, I certainly agree. To me (and this is just my opinion), but an original LS6 car that now sports a 350, is just basically a "Mailbu" to me. I personally would rather have a matching numbers SB Mailbu than a original LS6 car that now has a 350...again, just my opinion.

I have, and would pay more/sell for more a car that I know to be an original "Rare" car even if it does not retain the original drivetrain.

BUT....only if I knew for FACT that it was such a car. EXAMPLE: a 65 Z-16 without the original drivetrain, but known, with paperwork or even some other reliable means, to be the real deal.

My original 66 Mystery Chevelle, as I sold it, did not have the orig. L-78 or RARE M-22 and cowl Plenum in it when I sold it, but many felt it's rich history made it more valuable...not everyone felt that way...but the Right people did ;)

In sum, yes...I believe a RARE car without it's orig. components should demand more money, BUT only if it has some traceable means to show what it was., and of course by worth more money...I mean within reason, which is subjective based on everyone's individual wallet.

Good luck Rich., you will make the right choice.

Mike

Interesting story Rich. I follow your line of thinking and for the most part agree with it, but you are going to drive yourself crazy trying to apply logic where none exists.

To me shopping for a classic car is the same as buying a new or used car off the lot.....In advance figure what features are important to you and what you are willing to pay for a car that matches your requirements as closely as possible, adding or subtracting from that figure depending on the actual car regardless of the asking price.

IMHO car values, both by the buyer and seller, are for the most part based on their emotional and monetary ties to the car and what they perceive the car to be worth. Sellers tend to use the word "original" quite liberally to justify their asking price, to the point the only place the term "original" applies is that the car was "originally" a Chevrolet. :rolleyes:

As you already know, the early cars had very little documentation and one would have to go by the numbers stamped on the components and even if the car has most of the original components, the car is only part of what it is claimed to be and loses some of its value if the claimed most sought after part is missing(L79-L78 engines) Just my opinion.

I would agree with the thoughts of 66 Mystery Chevelle. If the "family bloodlines" and documentation are there for a rare car then I believe the car has added value even if some of the original drivetrain components are missing.

The market is clearly saying this as well with examples being shown daily. Certainly doesn't mean you have to agree with what's taking place.

It's been an interesting discussion to follow.

Aren't there other attributes of an L79 car that would make it identifiable and more valuable? For instance, wouldn't an L79 most likely be a 4spd car (or a heavy duty 3spd on the floor) with identifiable tunnel hump and back-up light harness? Could there also be a high RPM tach and wouldn't the rear end be a 12 bolt? The presence of any of these would be cause to pay more for the car with or without an engine. What does the cowl tag tell you? It might indicate a 4spd.

If the car has what appears to be an original 10 bolt and/or a steering column with a shift handle (automatic or 3 spd), that could be enough evidence to debunk the assertion that the car was an L79. Mind you, I'm not a 65 expert and don't have a 65 assembly manual, but I wouldn't expect a L79 to have anything but a heavy duty drivetrain with a manual floorshift.

I AGREE graemlins/thumbsup.gif .... theres way to much being made of the fact that a car WAS something thats long gone....the facts are what it is NOW & thats what the price should be based upon... ( its kind of like saying you've got Jr Johnson car..becouse you've got one of the window wiper blades they trashed.. off the tow car !!) way to much hype not enough truth !!! IMHO

Originally posted by AZCamino:
Aren't there other attributes of an L79 car that would make it identifiable and more valuable? For instance, wouldn't an L79 most likely be a 4spd car (or a heavy duty 3spd on the floor) with identifiable tunnel hump and back-up light harness? Could there also be a high RPM tach and wouldn't the rear end be a 12 bolt? The presence of any of these would be cause to pay more for the car with or without an engine. What does the cowl tag tell you? It might indicate a 4spd.

If the car has what appears to be an original 10 bolt and/or a steering column with a shift handle (automatic or 3 spd), that could be enough evidence to debunk the assertion that the car was an L79. Mind you, I'm not a 65 expert and don't have a 65 assembly manual, but I wouldn't expect a L79 to have anything but a heavy duty drivetrain with a manual floorshift. It's not so much a question of determining what the car was originally, for sake of this discussion go ahead and assume the car's heritage is what it has been claimed to be. Does that car still have a greatly inflated value without the original drivetrain? I'll agree that a manual shift steering column and a 12-bolt axle may carry a certain amount of value in themselves but we are talking about small incremental increases not monumental increases in perceived value.

In the specific instance I described both cars had a floor shift manuals, neither had a factory tach, both were V8 cars (which means they have the same frame, bracing, etc.) but one has a 12-bolt and one has a 10-bolt. Should that 12-bolt itself account for a more than doubling in asking price? It also needs to be stated that neither car has paperwork. BUT, even if the supposed L79 did have paperwork in my opinion that in itself should not greatly increase the value of the car. The availability of the original engine sure would though (to me).

If I am looking at a roller with no original engine or transmission or even a non-original engine and transmission, the presence of a 12-bolt or other original high performance equipment may make it slightly more attractive and thus more valuable but I can always buy the less expensive one and upgrade the parts I wish to anyway.

The only other reason I can think of why some one would pay 50% more for one of those cars is that it must be painted Resell Red. :D

It's an emotional component of value... not rational.

The seller obviously is not as motivated to sell one car as much as the other.

Buy the cheaper one... unless you see the other one as a soul mate for your L79.

Originally posted by AZCamino:


Buy the cheaper one... unless you see the other one as a soul mate for your L79. Ha ha! That's exactly what I was thinking until it was proven (in my opinion) to not even be an L79 car. For the money spent I'd be way ahead of the game in buying the other less expensive car and cloning it into an L79! Realistically though, if I do buy the less expensive car I'll more than likely want more power than an L79 clone could provide. Can you say "502"? Restoring cars is great but it would be fun to hot rod one too and since it's original heritage is long gone and unknown I certainly wouldn't be harming anything containing strong originality value.

The supposed L79 wagon would STILL be a very interesting car with a 250hp 327ci, four speed and a posi 12-bolt as original equipment but as it sits it is simply not worth the price being asked in my opinion.

Rich,

It seems to me you have answered your own question... graemlins/clonk.gif If both cars are equally solid rollers why do you have a bigger interest in one over the other? If you have more interest in it then so should someone else. So it should be worth more money. If it's not such a big deal why haven't you already purchased the other wagon at half the price. Some one else is going to come to the same conclusion and buy the cheaper one. Why shouldn't it be you?

Don't let the cheaper one get away Rich! Drive fast...Take chances! :D

the L-30 4 speed & gears would be fun all the way home but then the power would need help..when was the last time anyone one of us was happy with the power under the hood?? I think I'd go for the cheap one & spend the money ... on go fast goodie's graemlins/thumbsup.gif if your fond of L-79 type cars... who's going to know its a 406 under that factory air cleaner ? ;) hardest parts going to be milling the camel humps on the afr's :cool:

I vote for a Fast Burn 385 crate motor. Definitely keep it a 4-spd and have fun winding those gears.

Good luck, Rich.

Originally posted by fastss396man:
Rich,

It seems to me you have answered your own question... graemlins/clonk.gif

That's exactly what I was thinking smile.gif No offense Rich.

As I said...worth more, but within reason...50% in the case shown here... not within reason, but then I am not fond of L-79's either :(

Originally posted by fastss396man:
Rich,

It seems to me you have answered your own question... graemlins/clonk.gif If both cars are equally solid rollers why do you have a bigger interest in one over the other? If you have more interest in it then so should someone else. So it should be worth more money. If it's not such a big deal why haven't you already purchased the other wagon at half the price. Some one else is going to come to the same conclusion and buy the cheaper one. Why shouldn't it be you?

Don't let the cheaper one get away Rich! Drive fast...Take chances! :D There is no question left to answer. I will NOT purchase the overpriced car, it is simply too much $$$ for what it really is. The point of the thread is not to help me decide but to discuss the reasoning behind the vast difference in asking prices.

Maybe I wasn't clear along the way in my story but for a long while I believed the car to be a true L79 car (as yet I had no evidence to the contrary). That is the only reason I would be willing to pay anything close to the price being asked. When it was found out the car was NOT an L79 the value in my view dropped dramatically, not so for the seller unfortunately. I have no doubts about where I stand or what I will do. The point of the discussion is that this issue seemed interesting and became more important to me following these recent events.

I will say this much. I did realize along the way through this discussion that there ARE some cars that could command a high price even though their originality is compromised. For example, if a Z16 was available but was missing it's original engine it would likely command much more money than an equal non-Z16 car. This makes some sense of course. Not even I would have a problem paying a premium for such a car if I wanted it and I could afford it. The same would seem to apply in the scenario Mike laid out concerning the Mystery Chevelle he once owned. (But I have a sneeking suspision that he prefers his current car much more BECAUSE it has original parts, correct me if I'm wrong Mike!).

But a Z16 or a cowl induction 66 are a far cry from an L79 car or even an LS6 or L78. They are far, far more rare, have a far greater number of distinguising characteristics and have far more individual history that needs to be taken into account.

And checking some math mentioned along the way, the supposed L79 car in my story was priced at more than 100% more than the other roughly equal car. That's ridiculous considering it isn't even and L79 car and can be proved as such. (Though it has been suggested that the engine could be decked and restamped to MAKE it an original L79 that matches the car.....)

In the end, I think the trend of folks buying and selling who latch onto phrases like F41, L78, M22 and on and on feel those codes alone increase value if they can only be mentioned concering the car in question EVEN IF THEY NO LONGER HAVE ANY RELATIONSHIP TO THE CAR IN ITS CURRENT STATE.

The bottom line still always holds true: something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. There is also a phrase about a fool and his money that seems to be applicable. ;)

Rich,

The only problem with trying to apply logic in this case is that you have to factor in the human element. The seller can ask however much he wants for what ever reason he wants. And there isn't much we can do about it. You tried to educate him in order for him to logically re-think his asking price based on facts. In this particular case no matter whats the facts of the matter are, he's not going to change his asking price. So there goes logic right out the window...(No pun intended). tongue.gif

Perhaps after the cheaper one is gone and he gets no serious buyers based on his asking price he may re-educate himself and apply logic then to reduce his asking price. It may be too little too late as many serious buyers with the financial resources have passed him buy. graemlins/angry.gif

And so life goes on making no sense what-so-ever. :rolleyes:

Good luck Rich. graemlins/beers.gif