What's the difference?

I'm in the process of my first restoration. I have a true '67 138 code "roller". I have feelers out for a 396 motor. Does "correct" mean that the build dates are in synch or does the vin need to agree? I kinda guessed that if the vin agreed (frame to cowl tag to block), that it would be "numbers matching. Am I right?

Based on your responses, what build date for a motor/tranny/rear would my car need for a build date on the cowl tag of 1st week of April?

Thanks in advance.

------------------
Yella

Numbers matching is when the motor and trans, and also the rear-end are the units originally installed by the factory. The serial numbers will match up with the cars VIN. Some also say that as long as it is documented that a warranty replacement motor will qualify for numbers matching. To me you can be correct without being numbers matching. That is what I would consider my car. For instance I have a 70 402 motor and a M-21 transmission installed which are the correct ones for my car, but their numbers do not match becasue they have long been replaced. As far as buil dates, I have gone by the notion of 8 weeks. That is everything on your car should have a build date that is within 8 weeks of the build date of the car.

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Mat Ellison
Lincoln, Ne
70 SS 396 Chevelle
62 Impala Sport Coupe
2001 Grand Prix GT
Aces #2424
http://www.geocities.com/elliboom/Mats_70_Chevelle.html?994781720927

"Numbers matchig" is easy to define, as you have already guessed and ELLI has reiterated. "Numbers Correct" may involve a little more gray area.
I consider my car "numbers correct". Body build date is 3rd week of May, 1968. Build date on motor is 3rd week of June. My engine (ED coded for manual transmission) was installed in an Atlanta built car some 7,600 units after my body went through. My transmission is a 68 dated M-20 (not original to car). My rear-end is original. I can never say it is "matching numbers" but it is correct, right down to the numbers and dates on the distributor, carb, intake, and exhaust manifolds, etc. The really fun thing about puttting my car together, was that I started with nothing in the engine compartment, and have pulled together what I have, one piece at a time. Block from north Florence, Alabama; intake from CB'01, crank and rods from south Alabama, carb from Arizona, Muncie from Texas, power steering from California. Pulleys, fan, fan shroud, etc., are all numbers correct for 1968.
Sorry to ramble on, but finding the correct parts has been a great deal of fun for me personally, and I enjoy talking about it. Sometime this fall, after more than two years, I hope to actually have it running.

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Patrick, aka Merlin
1968 SS 396/325 4-Speed, White with black vinyl top & black interior.
ACES #5131
TC#1017

I would also throw out there that "correct" also would apply to the overall finished product, which would happen anyway if all of the correct part numbers are used. But if you are just applying "correct" to the numbers and build dates of the major drivetrain parts, I think it leaves the car open to incorrectness (for lack of a better word) in other areas. A case-in-point would be a recent Super Chevy Show I went to. There were two 68 SS's there, and while neither claimed to be "correct" with respect to anything, both had long water pump setups (I assumed that they were now 454 cars). Again, neither claimed being "correct", but if the claim was made based on major component build dates, I would not consider these engines to be "correct" (without regards to anything other than the wrong water pump setup, which of course includes all of the wrong driven accessories and their brackets, as well). Am I right in thinking this, or is there another term ("originality"?) which would decribed that area of incorrectness?
Another example would be an open element air cleaner on a 68 SS396 325 hp Automatic (Even I'm guilty of this one, even when it was still a numbers matching engine http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif)




[This message has been edited by Gene McGill (edited 07-22-2002).]

I think numbers matching should mean it has the ORIGINAL driveline from that car... not an over the counter engine, not a restamped correctly dated block but THE original block, tranny, and rear. I dont buy the term "correct" as a sugar coated way of saying "restamp", which in itself is a sugar coated way of saying "fake".

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

"Restoration engine" is another term the Corvette guys came up with... sounds better than "restamped fake" i guess.

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

Hey Gene, I couldn't agree more regarding the water pump issue. I've gone to great lengths to procure the "correct" brackets for drivers side alternator and power steering pump associated with my short water pump big block.
I have come across several long pump big blocks in pre 69 Chevelles, and while most admit that the setup is not original, I have had at least one guy argue that the long pump, passenger side alternator setup was factory original in his 68SS. He further argued, the fact that the VIN and the number stamped on the engine did not match, had nothing to do with "matching numbers"! And this guy was a dealer in classic automobiles.
Personally, I love the look of the open element air cleaner, but I anted-up a little more for the closed element because it is "correct" for the low horse 396.

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Patrick, aka Merlin
1968 SS 396/325 4-Speed, White with black vinyl top & black interior.
ACES #5131
TC#1017

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin:

Personally, I love the look of the open element air cleaner, but I anted-up a little more for the closed element because it is "correct" for the low horse 396.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I probably don't have any business in this thread because the likelihood of me ever have a numbers matching car is pretty low. But I just wanted to say that I like the look of the closed element better than the open element. It seems to have more mass and makes more of a statement. I have the 70 Z/28 dual snorkel and I really like the look of it. Although to get more air in I run a filter that is taller so it can take in air like an open element. It may sound contradictory to run a closed element as an open element, but I think you can't beat the look of that big chrome top (3 or 4" bigger than an open air element) and those 2 black snorkels over the motor. JMO.


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my 67 droptop (http://www.mdesignstudio.com/chad/other/mychevelle2.jpg)

To me a correct car is one that you have to look at the stampings to tell that the numbers do not match. As long as it has the proper parts that it originally came with, I would call it correct.

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Mat Ellison
Lincoln, Ne
70 SS 396 Chevelle
62 Impala Sport Coupe
2001 Grand Prix GT
Aces #2424
http://www.geocities.com/elliboom/Mats_70_Chevelle.html?994781720927

I've always understood the terms to be either
"numbers matching" or "date correct". By saying "numbers correct" you're getting them mixed up, and it really doesn't make much sense.

Now, does anyone want to discuss OEM, NOS,& NOM??? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Bob Von Kaenel
70 SS 54k orig miles

I'd like to throw up a question on this. My 69 Malibu from what I can tell is all original, but I had questioned the engine. The powerglide and rear are the ones that came in the car. The engine is a 307, the block matches the car build date wise. The thing that threw me were the cylinder heads. The right side head had the accesory holes while the left head did not. I ran the numbers and the left head came up as a 283 head while the right head was correct. i did not want to have mismatched heads on it so I did this. I had a 73 Nova that I scrapped and kept the engine/tranny from. Engine was a 350 4bbl. The casting numbers on the head (3932411) came out as 69-74 307/350 w/accesory bolt holes so I took them off that engine and slapped them on the 307 in the 69 Chevelle. What would this be considered? I still have the 2 mismatched heads off the 307. The other thing I thought was a little funny is that the 2 mismatched heads took 13/16" spark plugs and the ones on there now take the 5/8" plugs.

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Tom Rightler
MCC # 497
Team Chevelle # 978
70 Chevelle SS (http://hometown.aol.com/micrlaser)
Maryland Chevelle Club (http://www.chevelles.net/mcc/mcc.htm)

Tom,
It sounds like at some point, the left side head on your 307 went south and was replaced with the earlier 283 head with no accessory bolt holes. You replaced both heads with 1973 dated heads that are the correct casting for, among others, your 69 307.
The way I understand it, if your block, transmission and rear end are all in sync with the VIN, then you have a "numbers matching" car. Perhaps with an asterisk. That asterisk being the later dated, albeit correct casting, heads. I assume the only telltale would be the date code under the rocker covers.
You say the casting date on the block is in line with the cars build date? i.e. 2 to 6 weeks prior? What about the stamped number? Does it "match" the VIN? If it does, and the tranny and rear do as well, then I say you have a "numbers matching" car, regardless of the heads.
But this is only my opinion.

Now here's a real "numbers" question for you Tom... How is it that I became a registered TCer two months before you, yet your TC number is lower than mine? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Patrick, aka Merlin
1968 SS 396/325 4-Speed, White with black vinyl top & black interior.
ACES #5131
TC#1017

[This message has been edited by Merlin (edited 07-24-2002).]

oh no! you guys have non matching TC numbers! Thats gonna kill your value! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

I guess its a personal choice,
But, IMO, I think that "Numbers-Matching" is only with the original engine and transmission... Sure, the rearend should be the original one, but no serial numbers there...

"Correct" would imply to me that the motor was correct for that particular car (same year and horsepower rating as stock).

Add a higher horsepower motor and its no longer "correct", even if it is the same year motor...

IMO, if is doesn't have the original motor, then it doesn't really matter if it is for the correct year... Whats wrong if I drop a 1969 396 in my 1966 Chevelle and use all the 1966 brackets? If I don't claim to be "matching numbers" or "original engine" then its just a replacement engine...

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"Once you go RAT, you never go back..."
TC #1366
Tony
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/Quik66.jpg
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/eng7.jpg

Tony, Friends

I somewhat agree on your rear end numbers thoughts. The numbers stamped on the rear end does matter in claiming a matching numbers car. If an indivdual can produce some sort of documentation validating these numbers it is a bonus for the cars owner. I have my 66SS original bill of sale and it list the cars Engine pad info, Trans stamped codes and Axle stamped codes. Which to me is a nice or added bit of info in researching our cars life. Anyway correct or matching is subject to an individuals interpretation as we can see in this topic. But fun for us all to discuss and debate.

Dwaine
66SS

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Merlin:

Now here's a real "numbers" question for you Tom... How is it that I became a registered TCer two months before you, yet your TC number is lower than mine? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good question. I think what I did was get my TC memebrship in September and just never got around to registering myself until 2 months later. It wasn't then until
then that I really started reading up here on the Tech Board. I have been more active in the Chevelle Email List mostly until recently. There are tons more good stories and info here http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif. When I first became a TC member, I hardly ever checked the Tech Board.

------------------
Tom Rightler
MCC # 497
Team Chevelle # 978
70 Chevelle SS (http://hometown.aol.com/micrlaser)
Maryland Chevelle Club (http://www.chevelles.net/mcc/mcc.htm)

Guys you have all touched a nerve. this is a topic I loose sleep over at night because I want so badly to have the numbers mathing block for my 69 I currently have a 66 325 hp 396 that looks correct but I,m obsessed with finding a correct casted engine, who knows what hp came in it with out the build sheet anyway? There are so few #'s matching cars out there that are affordable for working class enthusiasts doesn't it make correct the finest in alternatives, or would some of you rather see them cut up into something that barly resembles its original self just because the engine stamping is off by a smigid?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JSC69ELCAMINO:
Guys you have all touched a nerve. this is a topic I loose sleep over at night because I want so badly to have the numbers mathing block for my 69 I currently have a 66 325 hp 396 that looks correct but I,m obsessed with finding a correct casted engine, who knows what hp came in it with out the build sheet anyway? There are so few #'s matching cars out there that are affordable for working class enthusiasts doesn't it make correct the finest in alternatives, or would some of you rather see them cut up into something that barly resembles its original self just because the engine stamping is off by a smigid?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The build sheet would show the correct hp engine for the car and I think the POP would as well since it includes the engine code. As long as you got not only a correct casting and date coded block, the suffix code would need to match your trans and A.I.R. equipped or not. My sources show 9 different suffix codes for the 66 396 Chevelle engine. Camaro, Passenger car, etal where applicable generally have their suffix codes even though they may be the same year.

I think most judging guidelines (at Chevelle shows anyway) that I've read about lately don't look at codes at all. If the car came with a small block then as long as the small block has the same outward appearance of originality, it's acceptable regardless of codes, internal changes, and even size. Same for a big block car. If it appears to be a 350hp car for example, it should have the 350hp accessories and the year/numbers of the block are not considered. I believe the ~lax~ attitude is growing due to the increasing scarcity of original parts and the frequency of bogus and restamped parts.

One of the funniest (to me anyway) things I ever saw was two individuals arguing over the correct finish on a washer that held the negative battery cable on a 69 396 alt bracket. Come on now. If Arlington, Baltimore, or KC ran out of the "correct" washer you really think they wouldn't substitute whatever they had handy, if they had one at all? Same for things like jacking instruction decals in the trunk. You think the guy putting the stickers on the inside of the trunk lid cared which cove it went in and if it was even upside down or not?



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TC Gold #92/ACES #1709
67 SS & 67 Elky
GR8PMKN (http://www.dalesplace.com/images/chevelle/more_pics/p001182.jpg)

Dale's Place (http://www.dalesplace.com) Team 67 (http://www.team67.com)
Midwest Chevelle Regional Governing Council (http://www.midwestchevelles.com)
Integrity: If you have it, it doesn't matter - If you don't have it, it doesn't matter.

Dale;
You have just reinforced my beleif on the subject. My point in my rambling last night was that for some they do not have the original build sheet or POP. For those unfortunates is whom I speak for as they should be commended for trying to restore a car to its original state despite all of the above. In any case it can be more of a challenge because you are left hunting for all the dated and casted parts to bring it back. It would be much easier for myself and others to cut em' up and yet we choose to restore original muscle so that we can be looked down upon by some of those fortunate few who were able to find a near complete auto.
I don't hold anything against them I would be on cloud nine give the opportunity to own #'s matcher. I would also recognize the hard work that others put into their non #'s car because their are many whos intent is not to build a fake, but to build the next best thing to a dream.
Thanks for letting me vent guys, I hope I haven't offended anyone. So far everyone has been more than helpfull and this is just one poor saps opinion...

JSC,
I agree with you...

I would love to have a few more numbers matching cars, but not financially feasible...

I don't mind even the incorrect year... If its in a restored class, and it has all the correct parts (even if the wrong year), maybe even a few incorrect parts, (but detailed to look factory), thats fine with me...

I do, however, think that switching from a 1966 396 to a 1969 396 is questionable... it just makes me leary because someone (maybe not you) might someday portray that car as a "matching numbers" car and defraud somebody... Don't get me wrong, if I had the choice between building the 66 motor or the 69 motor for your car, I would choose the 69 (all else being equal), but to do it just because you want the correct dates...

And I think not having the original motor does not make the car any more likely to be "cut up"... There are still people in this world that will take a true matching numbers cars and cut it up to go racing... Thankfully, there aren't as many these days...

[This message has been edited by 1966_L78 (edited 07-30-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JSC69ELCAMINO:
their are many whos intent is not to build a fake, but to build the next best thing to a dream.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's really cool JSC

build the next best thing to a dream

I Like that

I think i have exactly what you guys are talking about... look at my camino... i have no build sheet, no paperwork of any kind... I know its a true SS car, just cause all the sheetmetal is original and shows no signs of filled holes etc.. and all the SS stuff is there... the engine isnt original, nor is the tranny, rear, etc... none of the drivetrain is even from the same year car! I just detailed everything to look as legit and correct as i could with the resources i have... yeah maybe theres a few brackets that arent 100% right for a 69, but it looks pretty close to original in all respects... that was my intention. Anyone ever take an upper alternator bracket from a 71 and weld in the giant hole on the top of it, just so it would look correct for a 69? I personally always think "looking" correct is as important as having all the numbers no one can see be correct... but thats just me... and i agree, i'd love to have every number match, but since they dont, i did the best i could to make it look right. See the pics in my signature and you should get an idea of what i mean. -Joe

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

Great discussion. This is one of those subjects where you can get as many opinions as participants.

My 67SS has a 67 L-78 in it, one of the 612 engines. Best I can tell it is not the original engine but it came from one of the 612 L-78 Chevelles made in 1967. All the casting dates are in April of 1967. Ya'll don't know how I wish I could say it is original. But from the discussion above I guess it is "correct" not original.

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/cool.gif



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-Mark "Some of us got it and some of us ain't." -Deputy Sheriff Barney Fife
TC# 717
ACES #1641
1967 Chevelle SS396/375 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1BadRat2)
1967 RailVelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1badrat3.jpg)
1964 Chevelle 283/195
1975 Corvette 396/425 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1BadRat1.jpg) "Wow, that's a mighty strong 350!"
Rat Garage (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/RatGarage.jpg)

I just wanted to mention that I had looked at the photos of Joeys 69 elky prior to all my postings and would have bet money that with all the grease markings, and original apperance it was #'s matching. It makes me fell much better about my non #'s elky because someone feels as I do and is not afraid to spend the time and money to build a very beautiful like Joeys. Joey that is what I dream mine will become but in black. Thanks for sharing a ride as nice as yours with a scruffy bunch like us here at CT.

Numers Matching should be looked at in a very black and white view ,there are no grey areas such as restamps or replacements.When looking into "numbers matching"you have to consider all the stampings and casting numbers on just about everything.
This also includes things like the Alternator,Starter,distributor,carb,manifolds,radi ator,hoses,feul pump,water pump,wheels,ignition wires Etc......
Yes this can be rewarding,but it can also be frustrating for most.Basically the car is exactly the way it was when it rolled off the assembly line in every detail.Ther are so many people out there that SAY there car is numbers match,but the trained eye and the right info and you can spot a deviation in a second.To see how crazy numbers Matching can get check out an N.C.R.S (national corvette restoration society)event and watch the judges tear a car apart,its sad.I suggest you have fun with your car no matter what the numbers say.

well said Heavy71. I think i agree with every sentence you typed!

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

"Great discussion. This is one of those subjects where you can get as many opinions as participants."

How right you are. Allot of different views on this subject. Here's another.

My 72 Convertible was originally a 307 car. When I bought it, it already had a 350 and high miles. I decided to build it up as a frequent driver, and a stock appearing SS clone because that is the look I like. I am striving to make it correct appearing without the numbers, or date codes. If it was a numbers matching correct SS 454 with low miles, I would not be so inclined to drive it as I would like to when it's done.

I'm building it as my dream car. I would never attempt to pass it off as numbers matching, or correct, but correct appearing.

I guess I got a little lucky..my block is numbers matching..trany and rearend I have no idea..never gotten under it and checked heheh. Thing is, now mine is an SS clone..was originally a 270HP 4 barrel 350..But I'm not concerned, I was more into a resto-rod than a bone stock appearing chevelle. However, mine will look VERY stock until you lift the hood. Silver/Black stripes, vinyl top, resto'd interior except a guage pod under the dash for oil press/water temp. Currently I have a grant wheel in it but when I'm semi happy with the car I will replace it with a stock 71 4 spoke SS wheel. I'm running rallys now but would like to upgrade to stock SS wheels, I like the 71 wheels almost as much as I like the 70 wheels. Al it takes is money! (of which I seem to be short of, money tree had bad crops this year ;P )
Personally, I wouldnt have cared if mine was # matching or not, I wanted a driver. I didn't even check till I got home and was pleasantly surprised to see correct numbers and code. (tonowanda 270HP 4 barrel 350)
The car looks like it was a nicely taken care of original up to the owner before me, then came the braided hose wrap, fuzzy seat covers, lights on the A-pillars. centerlines, airshocks, Cheapo parts house chrome kit etc etc..I laughed when I first seen it in front of the guys house with its butt in the clouds and low pro 50's on it on the back with centerlines..
But I could see the car was very solid and deserved a second chance.

Oh and did I mention the flourescent blue lights under the dash to make the car glow blue inside?
HAHAHAHA

Scot

The term "numbers matching" may be one of the most maligned in the English language. If you look at the ads by many people selling muscle cars, "numbers matching" means little more than the block's been stamped to properly correspond with the vin # and the block's casting number and date codes would be within accepted ranges also. This has been widespread terminology within the collector car community ever since I can remember and few muscle car dealers I've run accross will guarantee THE originality. To me it doesn't mean anything anymore unless somebody states emphatically that the car has THE ORIGINAL DRIVETRAIN. There are just too many dealers and individual sellers who consider "matching numbers" to mean good restamping.

Ok, you guys discussed "numbers matching", "correct"...what about "period correct"?

test

Hey fellas,
We are currently looking at purchasing a resto project, where would I find the "matching numbers" you're talking about? engine...trans...rear!
Lastly, how do we match to the vin#? Keep in mind were new to this type of thing, this is going to be our first venture into the muscle car realm. This is suppose to be a #'s matching car which to me meant engine matches the vin some how...nothing else. After reading this topic, I've got some homework to do.

Thanks for any replies!

Tony & Sharon

Tony,

Numbers matching generally means that the engine, transmission, and rear end all match to the vehicle they were origionally installed in.

One can take numbers matching much further to mean cylinder heads, intake and exhaust manifold, carb, brackets and pulleys, alt, fan, shroud, master cylinder, power steering pump, etc-etc all match the original application.

At the very least you want to check the block stamping pad located just below the passenger side cylinder head. You should see some numbers there that match the car's VIN.

I'm in Fairfax. Where's the car you two are considering?

Dan

------------------
Awww, fer cyrin out loud, there's that IMPALA guy again.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/ss3964spd?d&.flabel=fld1&.src=ph

[This message has been edited by ss3964spd (edited 10-28-2002).]

ha ha...now there's a topic!! always one for some good debate....but as was said so well by my friends here, it is in the simpliest of terms....the original engine remains in the car and the VIN # stamped on the passsenger side head, up front, above water pump ( as seen below ) matches the VIN Number attached to the car...in the case of a 66 as shown here...it would be the VIN Tag riveted to the inside driver's door...also VIN that is on the title, if you have one. NOTE: not the enire VIN will be on the engine pad...just the part that starts with the model year "6" followed by the letter suffix of the assemby plant of the car ...in this case "Z" for Fremont. and then the Numbers remaining in the serial number....that combination of numbers and letters, needs to match the VIN Tag.

Then, if one wanted to go further to incorporate TRUE meaning...the VIN will be stamped on the TRANSMISSION, though difficult see sometimes, and the Rear can only be MATCHED by approx date code stamped on it, to the car's Build date, unless...a Protecto plate is with the car, inwhich case, A TRUE Match can be made from POP to REAR.

Now, I personally, and many disagree,,,but that's no sweat off my back...think a matching numbers car should also have the body paint and interior in or on the car that matches the codes on teh TRIM TAG attached to teh firewall. IE., if the car is coded on the trim tag as EE...say for Danube Blue, then the car had better be Danube Blue, not Regal Red. and the same for interior color and style. again, that's my thing, don't let it change your mind about a car you like...

here's an example of a engine pad stamp:

http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/66SSFremontEnginestamp.jpg

Mike Crown


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66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE.COM (http://hometown.aol.com/mysterychevelle/66CHEVELLESS.html)

Get the orange paint out of those numeral depressions!

Now Joe....I'm offended that you would think that is a photo of my engine stamp...just a quick example from my library is all...a teaching tool if you will http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

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66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE.COM (http://hometown.aol.com/mysterychevelle/66CHEVELLESS.html)

Mike, if you are going to use these as a teaching tool, at least use one with the right hose clamps. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/tongue.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/tongue.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/tongue.gif

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ACES #5032
TC #1074

Paint in the stampings, wrong hose clamps....

It's so terribly difficult to find good help these days.

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

DON'T PUSH ME! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE.COM (http://hometown.aol.com/mysterychevelle/66CHEVELLESS.html)

SS3964spd,
The car is in Pa, it's a 70 SS 396/375 hp with red ext, black stripe and a black int. Sorry it took so long, my password wouldn't work.

Tony

SS3964spd,
The car is in Pa, it's a 70 SS 396/375 hp with red ext, black stripe and a black int. Sorry it took so long, my password wouldn't work.

Tony

Tony,

Just a thought - there are many folks in and around Pa that might be willing to help you inspect the car. You may want to consider putting the word out.

Dan

This morphed into an excellent topic. Please allow me to pontificate.

The reason people want to buy, own or restore numbers matching cars is to validate authenticity, which makes them more valuable. In my opinion, you either have a numbers matching car, where VINs and date codes are correct, or you don't. You can attempt to make a numbers matching car out of one that wasn't, but why? Because: it appears more authentic and would be inherently worth more money if it appeared as original.

This is compounded by the fact that there is some big money around this hobby that has found a never-ending stream of suckers with more money than sense. It propels some unscrupulous people to perform block re-stamps and pay ridiculous prices for parts because of casting or stamping dates in order to perpetuate fraud. The implication is, unless we are lucky enough to exchange parts with other hobbyist such as ourselves, we cannot avoid paying those inflated prices. (Go price two bare 454 blocks; one being out of a '70 model high performance car and the other out of a '80 truck.)

So in an attempt to answer the original question, "What's the difference...?" in a different context than the author contemplated, it is how much money you want to spend to attempt to present a numbers matching car (when in reality it isn't and never will be if it didn't start life with the acquired parts), versus the increase in value that the exercise yields.

My conclusion is this: everyone should quit trying to make their cars into something they are not, in terms of originality (don’t confuse this with a condemnation of clones). I don't expect it to happen and am guilty of the behavior myself. The real unmolested cars would then not be obfuscated by the replicates.

Why won't it happen? There aren't enough authentic and unmolested cars to supply the demand (broad generalization acknowledging there are some exceptions: everyone wants an SS). Therefore, the situation makes a ripe opportunity for profit (I'm also not trying to imply that everyone is unscrupulous).

This is where the clone issue comes in. People say: “I can't get an affordable SS, so I'll make my dream car.” That's fine and I respect their right to do so. There are some really well done clones and one of my best friends owns one of the finest. Unfortunately, those cars will likely survive their creators. At some point the heritage can be lost. It is possible, if not likely, that it will be presented by a subsequent owner as something that it is not (especially difficult for owners of '69-'72 models).

Money, in more than the obvious way of not having enough, is driving a wedge between our hobby and us. The paradox is that we are willing participants, because of our love of "all things SS", in the problem.

{zipping up my nomex coveralls}

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Numers Matching should be looked at in a very black and white view ... you have to consider all the stampings and casting numbers on just about everything ... includes things like the Alternator,Starter,distributor,carb,manifolds,radi ator,hoses,feul pump,water pump,wheels,ignition wires Etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's my frustration. None of you, or almost none of you have original cars, it seems, "IF" we follow this definition? I http://www.chevelles.com/forum/tongue.gif because I have a 99% original car - even the exhaust - only because I have a 4-door someone forgot about for 20 years in a dry basement.

My car is not worth $ sh$t, but ORIGINAL all the same (except a pesty HEI electronic ignition). How many can say they have the original exhaust? Usually cars like mine were scavenged and cannibalised to restore your cars.

SO IF YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT ORIGINALITY, don't be, unless its a trailer queen. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it, by Sandy Claus I am! :P

Alan,
* If this particular 70 SS is the real deal, I'm going to grab it! If it's fairly close with a non-matching motor, we're going to pass. At the very least we need the motor to match, that's a must. Then we'll put the time and money into it...but no cloning.
* Dan, if this guy decides to go through with this deal (keeping fingers crossed), the car is in pieces and will be a breeze getting digital photos to put here on this sight for you and other members to take shots at. Photos of numbered parts, body and engine.

Tony

I don't wanna take "shots" at it Tony (we have my car for that), just want to help you avoid getting taken for the clone ride.

JT, I appreciate your opinion but I beleive you are missing what motivates the individuals who, honestly, try to return their cars to the way they were when new.

Please do not confuse "original" with "original restored"; I acknowledge that there are very-very few "original" cars.

And, as you have discovered, just because someone has an original car (survivor) does not necessarily mean it is worth anything.

The point is this, if you are lucky enough to own a car with the original engine block and transmission you can return it to a original restored (my own annoyance is how often the word "restored" is incorrectly applied), legitimate, numbers matching condition - if you have the time and money. Remember, numbers matching also means that the date codes are inline with the build date.

Dan

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Awww, fer cyrin out loud, there's that IMPALA guy again.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/ss3964spd?d&.flabel=fld1&.src=ph

Dan,

I will agree with you on the "restored" usage... I see so many cars that are "restored", but they are highly modified... "Restored" should mean "Stock" as the factory made it, but maybe not the original pieces... Headers, Torque-Thrusts, etc are not "restored"...

I guess it really burns me because I once one second place in a "restored" class... The winner was highly modified (and this show had a modified classification too)...

And the "Survivor" thing just bugs me...
IMO, if a car has a few replacement parts, okay, sure, its a "survivor"... If you start intentionally replacing parts with "correct" pieces, its "Restored"...

I think "Survivor", "Restored", and "Matching Numbers" are thrown around too much (much like "rare"), and its usually done by guys that want to feel their vehicle is superior to others...

Of course, these terms are subjective...

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"Once you go RAT, you never go back..."
TC #1366
Tony
The Chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleA.jpg)
Dual Quad 396 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleC.jpg)
Side View (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleD.jpg)

[This message has been edited by 1966_L78 (edited 10-30-2002).]

My car's an original modified survivor that's been restored, and we all know how rare those are.

Sorry, I'm just practicing in case I want to put her on Ebay someday.

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Bob Von Kaenel
70 SS 54k orig miles
My car. (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/barista70front.jpg)
The red interior. (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/barista70interior2.jpg)
The engine. (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/barista70engine.jpg)
Hood trim. (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/baristasgirls.jpg)

I agree, a survivor car is a rare thing, and usually means it has SOME orinal paint, and not much else original... even if it looks original its not really original to the car, just nice NOS or used stuff found and replaced.... which would basically mean its restored. The only Chevelle that comes to mind that is truely the epitome (sp?) of survivor is Joe Swezey's 68 Harrell car... that car is a total mind blower... original paint, interior, tires, etc etc... 11,000 miles. it looks exactly like it did when Dick Harrell himself pulled off the masking tape after adding the funky side stripes and hood, and aside from maybe the headers, and a new battery, i dont think theres a single part on the car thats been touched since it left Dick's shop in 68. Definitely my favorite Chevelle in the world!

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

Bob, looks like you've got the Ebay thing down - especially if you include the hood ornimentation.

Tony & Joey, I suppose I'm a little more loose when I consider the word "survivor" as I would make allowances for normal wear and tear items; exhaust, tires, shocks, wiper blades, and basic tune-up items so long as the replacements are functionally and cosmeticly correct. Survivor to me means original paint, untouched (up) engine compartment and under carriage, untouched interior, stock wheels and wheel covers, and that all the parts that were on the car when new are still there (spark plug wire looms, heat shields, vac hoses, brackets, etc).

"Restored", weather or not one wants to attach the word "original" to the front of "restored", to me means the car has been returned to it's "as built" state, but not necessarily with it's original parts (it has the correct exhaust manifolds but not the ones that came on the car because someone threw those away when they installed the headers).

"Numbers matching restored" suggests that...well, you guys get the idea.

It really frosts my twinkies when I hear of a "restored" car then, upon examination, it turns out to have an engine from this, a trans from that, a tuck-n-roll interior, etc-etc. Would be nice if the industry could settle on it's terminology.

Of course, perhaps I have too much time on my hands if this sort of things gets my knickers in a twist. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Dan

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Awww, fer cyrin out loud, there's that IMPALA guy again.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/ss3964spd?d&.flabel=fld1&.src=ph

The problem in termination is that the general public calls a car thats been "fixed up" in ANY way as "restored". If they know the car was rusty, and now the car has new shiny paint, most people call it "restored"... regardless of if it is restored to stock specs or not. Hey, by the way, my el camino doesnt have any numbers matching driveline... are you saying it is NOT restored?

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

So with all the debate over terminology, why use it at all? Why not not say "original engine , trans, maybe rear, but the driveshaft has been replaced, and the original harrison radiator has been re cored etc....Those questions are going to be asked by most knowledgable buyers anyway. It seems to me that the terminology needs to be standardized and defined, so that anyone looking to see what category a car is in, could easily reference that information. Just my opinion, Terry

Heck no Joey, I'd say it's "restored" - and exceedingly well done at that, but it can't (in my mind) be termed "restored original" or "NM restored" (not that you make that claim Sir). Now, if your car has a 454 instead of a 396 is it still "restored"?

That's the crux of the problem, isn't it, that words like original, rare, restored, and survivor mean different things to different people in this hobby. In fact though, those words - when applied to collector cars, have very specific meanings (to me anyway!) but so many people bend the meanings to fit their needs.

Look at this for example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1870607651

Can this car be called restored? Not in my book. Can it still be called rare? I dunno.

Dan

You know what? who cares? Every car is different, so there are no 100% "right" terms to use... My car doesnt have a matching number on the engine anywhere, but it looks right... a guy down the street might have the original block, heads, distributor, etc... but has more Summit racing crap bolted to it than you can shake a stick at... whcih car is more original or more restored? Depends on whats important to you... or what your plans are.. My car is done the way GM would have did it, his is not, but in his defense, HE COULD buy all the right stuff for his and be a restored NM car, mine can't.... every situation is different, basically just do your homework when you buy, and know whats important to you...

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My 69 SS Elco (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcooutside.jpg)
engine (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcoengine.jpg)
interior (http://members.aol.com/joeybsyc/elcointerior.jpg)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The hood trim<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love the hood trim!