Hi all. I have done some research on the site about the 4+1 tranny and got a ton of information off here about putting one in my wifes 66 chevelle. For those of you that have had them in the car for a while, what is your opinion of it? I have read up on it and the information says they are very quiet, but that is not what I have read through the archives. Any new opinions on that? Also, what did you do about reverse lights and did a regular GM speedo gear work. Thanks in advance for all the replies on this one.

John Weaver

Gosh, this gets asked a lot.
I have one in my Cutlass with a .030 over 455. Been there since the late 80s. Never touched it. I sometimes tow my 70 conv or 56 Vette on a 16ft flat trailer (Okla City to Nashville has been the longest distance) behind this Cutlass. It is nosier than a M-20, but not as noisy as a M-22. When idling in neutral, the reverse idler gear makes some noise, always has, but has never increased. Also, I have dumped the clutch on it several times (with a 2.41 posi rear), but not with the trailer attached! After 14yrs or so, it's still doing just fine! I'd buy another one (but hope I never have to).

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Tom Parsons

John, it was soooooo good, that the first time I jumped on it HARD it scared me. The deep gearing is AWESOME! Unfortunately a few days later I lost a rocker boss, and then I decided to R&R the engine ( a good move in hindsite ). I have a road race version, so it might be a bit noisier than the street version, but its totally liveable.

Same speedo gear as the M20. In fact, I jsut bolted on the outer gear assembly and away she went. FOr reverse light, since I used a Long shifter, I rigged a $5 microswitch on a small fabbed bracket. No big deal.

I have a thread here in Trannies outlining the install, step by step.

I too have the Road Race version, and I love it... It was used (from G-force) and the only problem I have is popping out of Reverse every once in a while...

I don't notice it being noisy at all, at least no anything annoying or generally noticible...

The speedo sleeve transfered directly from the Muncie...

I also have the Long shifter, but I used my old Hurst back-up light switch off my Muncie, with a little fabbed bracket (bent a piece of flat aluminum stock) to hold it in place... Works well...

The thing shifts very nice, I also love the lower gears. I dropped in a new rearend with 2.73 gears/posi, and it makes those longer trips much more enjoyable... I was building the new rear anyway...

I had to move the console back an inch or so, and modify the floor opening to clear the shifter (just a hair farther back), and I had the cross-member pad dropped a little (but not entirely necessary-the shifter sits up high, and one linkage rods was rubbing the floor before I dropped it). The cross-member was slid back on the mounts, but still uses stock holes (but only one on each frame, not two as stock)...

I even had the shifter modified so I could bolt the stock handle on it.

From inside the car, it looks completely stock...

So... I don't think its noisy, backup light might have to be fabricated, but easy (Hurst shifters probably have a switch), and yes, the regular GM speedo will work (Muncie/Powerglide/TH350?)...

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"Once you go RAT, you never go back..."
TC #1366
Tony
The Chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleA.jpg)
Dual Quad 396 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleC.jpg)
Side View (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleD.jpg)

Hello Slopar,

I installed a Doug Nash street 5 spd in my 1970 Chevelle 15 years ago. I cut off the stem mount of the Hurst Competition Plus shifter and welded an L shaped bracket to move the shifter handle towards the center of the tranny tunnel / console. Bolted the stock Muncie stem to it and use original shifter boot, and console.

My car was a stick from the factory, so I'm not sure how the tunnel fit would be with an automatic tranny car.

The shifter mechanism does protrude up into the car. I had to add about 4 inches to the left of the stock hole in the floor to make room for the shifter. I covered the shfiter / hole with sheet metal. The original boot and boot ring do not fit great since the shape of the hole / floor is changed, but they do fit and look stock since they are sunk below sight in the console.

My tranny makes gear meshing sound in gears 1,2,3 and 4. Nothing bad, or grinding, just plain old noise. Similar sound to Rock Crusher Muncie. 5th is quiet when cruising. I also have little to no sound aborbtion material under the carpet (next project). The sound of the tranny is not bothersome to me, and I am confident sound deadener / absorbtion would be fantastic reduction / elimination of noise getting into the car.

I run a 3:30 rear end. Had 3:73, but wanted less RPM through gears and on highway.

My car is all steel with supercharged 468. Tranny has stood up to street tire and M&H slick abuse with Ram sintered iron clutch.

Using the stock driveshaft (large GM yoke) and tranny crossmember.

Has not been rebuilt yet. Hopefully never will. Great tranny.

Have a great day, good luck....Joe

What a great group of guys on this site. You guys have given me the exact information on what I am looking for.427L88, I read that thread and it answered most of my basic questions. The good news for me is I already have the transmission. It came in a car I bought a couple of years ago for a really good deal and I was gonna save it for my own project but have decided to put in in the wifes chevelle. I talked G-Force about a shifter and even though the tech guy was a little hesitant, I am gonna go with a vertigate shifter. The car has one in it now and the wife has driven the car up and down the driveway enough that she likes it. It already has a hacked up floor and no console, so it should not be a problem.

Thanks for the replys,
John Weaver

John those Vgate shifters re HARDCORE. You tell the Mrs the boys at TC think she's HARDCORE! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif In a good way, of course.

( if you drive the car alot it will become a pita )

If you go with the Long, do yourself a favor, dont know if I adressed it in my install thread, cut the rear upper corner off that mounting bracket. Its plenty big and that corner will hit the floorboard. In hindsite, I would have sawed it off. Saved some tunnel snipping.

Thanks for the tip. I want to minimize the buthcering. And yeah, I want her hardcore when she drives it. She has been mid 11's in one of my old GN's so she has some quality seat time. She has some funny stories about whacking a few cars with it on the street. She actually thinks the vertigate turns shifting into a no brainer. What she does not know is what a direct drive cars feels like with a big block. It surpirses me though that the transmission fits in the tunnel because it sure looks pretty large sitting on the gatage floor.

John Weaver

WHADDAYA MEAN LOOKS LARGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you ever laid on your back and tried to stab one by yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its fun.

Unlike Gene (427L88), I made no mods to the crossmember on my install as I had no vibration/driveline angle issues to deal with. I had to massage the floorboard for 3-4 shift rod clearance but it was minor. I had to enlarge the opening in the tunnel but only a small amount and the factory tunnel hump for my 65 without the console covered it nicely. The only other issue I had was the upper tranny-to-bellhousing bolt on the driver's side would not even go in. I contemplated using a stud and nut but I couldn't get a wrinch on the nut so I opted for 1/2"-13x1-3/4" long allen head bolts but had to do some grinding on the case to get that one in. I used hardened lock and flat washers under the heads of all four. Everything else fell into place except the driveshaft. I had to use my original 65 driveshaft (60" center to center on the u-joints) and when cleaning it up I discovered a fracture/crack/flaw in the front flange so it's at the driveshaft shop as I type. They promised it to me by noon today so I can take it on a shakedown run before heading off to the Adirondak Nationals tomorrow. As far as being large, you bet it is! At 95+ pounds I needed a floor jack to help my aging muscles get it in. The Muncie was a cake-walk in comparison.

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Dave
My 65 El Camino (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/elky4.jpg)
Tri Power #1 (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/tp_left.jpg),Tri Power #2 (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/tp_right.jpg)
New Richmond 5-Speed (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/rod5.jpg)
Fan/Shroud/PRC Radiator (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/fan_and_shroud1.jpg)
M22, 3.73's

Tony did this by himself as well, man, you guys deserve kudos because this puppy is MUCH heavier than an M20, but maybe +35-40 lbs.
David, for me it was the LOWER driverside bolt. No way you can get a standard 11/16 head in there. I also used a socket head cap.

You know what Gene, I'm glad you mentioned that. I also had to use an Allen or socket head bolt on the driver's side.

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Tom Parsons

I actually had mine in and out at least 2 times during the mock-up/assembly (realign bellhousing, etc...)...

The worst was I didn't have the car high enough to slide the trans under ON the floor jack...

so I had to lift the trans and place it one the jack while it was under the car...

I am sure I will feel all this when I am old... well, older than I am now... http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Like David mentioned, you don't have to modify the crossmember... I did because I wanted the shifter to sit lower, but there were then more possible problems with the fan/shroud and clutch bellcrank (Z-bar) alignment...


Yeah, also had to use a allen head bolt for the lower drivers side... I thought of trying to use a stud and a small nut (maybe an ARP 12-point nut), but it was cheaper and easier to just go get the bolt and large allen wrench... Had to use the vice grips on the allen wrench to make sure it got tight enough...

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"Once you go RAT, you never go back..."
TC #1366
Tony
The Chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleA.jpg)
Dual Quad 396 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleC.jpg)
Side View (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleD.jpg)

I read a brochure I got off ebay about this transmission an it says it only weighs 3 lbs. more than a muncie. I find that hard to believe. I was seriously thinking about fabricating the tunnel so it could come out with a few minutes work for maintenance issues but it sounds like this is one durable piece and I won't be working on it much.

John Weaver

Gene, It was the lower bolt on the driver's side!!! I think I had a temporary brian fart. (hmmm, maybe it wasn't temporary at all!!!)

The driveshaft is back in and I'm glad I made the swap. I can cruise at 75 mph and the BB is turning just under 2900 RPM. Overall first gera ratio now is (3.07 rear times 3.04 1st) 9.33:1 as opposed to (3.73 rear times 2.20 1st gear) 8.06:1 with the M22. At 15 MPH in first gear I can literally "fry" the BFG 275-60's just by nailing the loud pedal. I feel the $1450.00 I paid G-Force was money well spent! There's no lookin' back now and it's off to Lake George and the Adirondak Nationals tomorrow then Lebanon Valley on the 29th. Then, over the winter it'll turn into 427L88#2!

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Dave
My 65 El Camino (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/elky4.jpg)
Tri Power #1 (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/tp_left.jpg),Tri Power #2 (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/tp_right.jpg)
New Richmond 5-Speed (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/rod5.jpg)
Fan/Shroud/PRC Radiator (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/fan_and_shroud1.jpg)
M22, 3.73's

Dave, good I'll see you at Lebanon ( Old Red wont make it though ).

The 10.8:1 1st gear was so good I busted one of those old 074 heads! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Seriously, I havent had much of a chance to play with it. I chose another "mild" cam for it that may make the engine work a smidge better from 2800-5000, and I darn curious to see if I can now get away with swapping the 3.55 to 3.07/08.

BTW, and I dont want to seem to be anal about it, but when I get instructions on something I'm unfamiliar with I follow them to the T. There would have been no way, in my case, to not cut that tranny mount off the crossmember and locate it lower and get the proper 3-5 degree angle of drop I was told to set it at. The mount needed to be dropped in my case. ( The Omar modification!)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There would have been no way, in my case, to not cut that
tranny mount off the crossmember and locate it lower and get the proper 3-5 degree angle of drop I
was told to set it at. The mount needed to be dropped in my case. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forget why you made the drop...

I guess its the <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the proper 3-5 degree angle of drop I
was told to set it at<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know who told you that (not that its not correct- I don't know). What is the stock (Muncie) angle?

I recall the vertical dimensions from the rear mount pad to be approximately the same distance from the output shaft centerline as the Muncie... Therefore, the angle should remain the same (same as GM designed)...

Sure, for total chassis setup, you might want to fool with the angles, but that would be after adjusting the rear axle...

I only dropped the pad for shifter/linkage clearance...

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"Once you go RAT, you never go back..."
TC #1366
Tony
The Chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleA.jpg)
Dual Quad 396 (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleC.jpg)
Side View (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/1966_L78/ChevelleD.jpg)

Just back from Lake George and the Adirondack Nationals. The 5-speed/3.07 rear combo performed flawllessly and made the 140 mile drive a pleasure. 65 mph was just a few rpm under 2500 with the 27-1/2" tall BFG 275-60Rx15's on the rear. My favorite vehicle at the show - a Pro-Street Divco milk truck! And then there was the BBC powered Barely streetable single seat mid 40's Fiat Topolino reminiscent of the early A-Gas days........

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Dave
My 65 El Camino (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/elky4.jpg)
Tri Power #1 (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/tp_left.jpg),Tri Power #2 (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/tp_right.jpg)
New Richmond 5-Speed (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/rod5.jpg)
Fan/Shroud/PRC Radiator (http://home.attbi.com/~bates150/images/dad/fan_and_shroud1.jpg)
M22, 3.73's