New 454 Got Lifter Noise? [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: New 454 Got Lifter Noise?


stacey honn
Mar 7th, 01, 7:54 PM
I've tried everything to get rid of the light tapping. Comp cam hot line says pull the cam and check it and the lifters. They say I might have a bad one. They also said 7and 8 cylinders usually go bad at first if something isn't right. Ya know it's so easy for them to say pull it apart. Ya sure all the hard work making everthing perfect. New hoses clamps wires polished bolts.I could go on and on about how pissed I am.
What I'd like to know before I start this new venture is this. When I look through the cavity in the heads i can see the lifters. and when I look close to see if the top of the lifter is pumped it looks like it has pushed down into the lifter about an eighth of an inch.(when the lifter is in the upward travel) Also , when I adjusted the valves the engine never once idled down when I cranked on the nuts. It is like the lifters are massively floating or they just aren't pumping up. Is there any test I can posibly do before I tear into this? Stacey

406chevelle
Mar 7th, 01, 8:50 PM
Have some one crank it with the ignition disabled and valve covers off. Look for the rocker that isn't moving as much as the others. You can try and adjust it but, it may be flat. If you change cams mark exactly where the rotor is pointing on the base of the distributor and also mark where the dis. shaft goes into the intake so you get it in the right place next time. Be sure not to crank it though casue it will be off then.
P.S. where is Gilman?

stacey honn
Mar 7th, 01, 9:06 PM
Gilman is in the center of Illinois. This engine dosen't miss a beat. If a lobe is worn off it would have to have done it in about 3hours run time. I'm no expert but I think comp cam sold me that special type of lifter. It's called EL CRAP PO!!!!
By the way I just bought a set of hood locks from summit. The kind that lock the hood down instead of the pins. You know the kind that have the key that looks like you can open a pop machine with. STarted to mount the pin onto the radiator support. The darn thing broke intwo. Can you imajine going down the road and haveing a hood fly off at 75 miles an hour? MY luck is turning to sour grapes I'm tellin ya!!

SS_Dave
Mar 8th, 01, 6:53 AM
Stacey,
What kind of oil pressure you running?
If you had the crank re-ground, you might want to go to a 50w oil. If there is 2-3 thousandths clearance in the mains, you should run a little heavier oil. This might help the lifters pump up some. Also, the correct way to adjust the hyd lifters is to run the rocker nut down untill the up/down slop goes away from the rocker. Turn the nut 3/4 of a turn more. The exception to this rule is if there is a shoulder on the rocker stud for the nut be torqued against, then you do that instead. Are your valve springs matched to the cam?
Just some general ideas here.

Dave


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Dave
69 Chevelle
454 500+ HP
M21 4spd.

"Fire all your guns at once and
Explode into space."
Steppenwolf "Born to be Wild"

Michael
Mar 8th, 01, 9:27 AM
Check your valve guide clearance. Excessive clearance can lead to a ticking sound. pressurise the cylinder and use a dial indicator to take readings off the valves as you wiggle them on the same plane as the rocker arm moves.
Maybe a pushrod is bent and rubbing on the block?
Use a detergent oil as debris may have clogged up the lifter body. Or alternatively, varnish may have built up in the lifter body.
Hope this helps.

Mytmouse
Mar 8th, 01, 9:45 AM
Stacy,

I am far from an expert here but maybe this is can shed light on your problem. I put a new set of Rhoads lifters in my 67 with a stock 396/350HP motor last winter because I had a sticky lifter . This was not a new engine but a running matching numbers motor. After I buttoned it all up (including adjusting lifters) I fired it up and as the car warmed up the lifters started making noise. I drove for it a while... frustrated as hell. Decided to readjust lifters again...same thing. Frustrated even more I adjusted one more time...lifter noise still. Beyond frustrated I posted a question here about 4 or 5 months ago. To my surprise (from responses I got here)...Rhoads lifters clack. I guess it is the "charm" of these lifters ...hydraulics with the solid sound. So I pull out the Rhoads brochure that came with them and sure enough it is part of their advertising.

So you are saying, what does this have to do with me?? Well, as I recall in my investigation into these lifters once I found out about their "charm" I remember reading that Crane had an equivalent lifter. I think their name for them are Crane Fast Bleed Lifters. Could Comp Cams have something similar and this is what you have in your car?? I am just looking at possible options.

I think the MO for this type of lifter is the clacking sound is most prominent at idle but as the RPM's increase the lifter pumps up more and they quiet down some. My exhaust is pretty loud so it is hard to even hear the motor when the R's are up but I believe this to be the case. Now that I know this is normal (at least in my application) the lifter noise is now just music to my ears.

Might be worth investigating this possibility. I hope this helps

Mytmouse

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67 SS396 350HP 4 sp 3:55 Posi Butternut Yellow w/Black Vinyl (http://www.pascale.org/Muscle_Cars/Mytmouse/mytmouse.html)
68 RS Z/28 302 350+Hp? 4sp 4:10 Posi, Euro Red on Black (http://www.pascale.org/Muscle_Cars/Myts_Mouse/myts_mouse.html)
70 SS396 350HP 4 sp 3:55 Posi, Black on Black (http://www.pascale.org/Muscle_Cars/Myt_70/myt_70.html)

Mytmouse A.K.A. Robert Stacho
ACES Member # 04359

[This message has been edited by Mytmouse (edited 03-08-2001).]

stacey honn
Mar 8th, 01, 9:48 AM
This engine just came out of the shop. 70 pounds on the road, 40 at idle. comp cam 270H with the K kit. Bearings were 3 all the way across the turned crank. Just got off the phone with comp cam. They gave me a special way to ajust the valves and I've done that. Half turn after snug pushrod. I did find a loose plug and was hoping that was it but wasn't.
There is plenty of oil coming out the rockers. And it sounds like several are just a bit too noisey. Not a clack, clack noise just a bit of ticking all over and on both sides.
She dosen't miss a beat or backfire when I goose it so I feel I'm not hurting anything YET.
Comp tech guy says these cams do make a bit more noise than regular cams. So I really don't know what to do. I lift the hood and people say,"Solid Cam?"

Steve S
Mar 8th, 01, 2:34 PM
I have a comp 280H in my 396 and it doesn't make any more noise than any other hydraulic cam. If it sounds like a solid then that tells me they are all making noise. If you adjusted running and the idle never fell off, that tells me they are not pumping up. Sounds like you have a fast bleed lifter. It is possible to remove one lifter on the drivers side head without pulling the intake (I have done this befroe). Remove the valve cover and in between cyl 3&5 is enough room to get access to one lifter. I would pull it and test it.

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Steve Strasemeier (70SS 396, Fathom Blue/White Stripes)
My 70SS (http://www.members.home.com/txss/sshome.htm)

[This message has been edited by Steve S (edited 03-08-2001).]

d1_bradley
Mar 8th, 01, 2:49 PM
Here's a link to all of COMP cams & lifters. Get your p/n and see what it matches. They make lots of variations. Some will be noisy some not.

http://www.compcams.com/catalog/

[This message has been edited by d1_bradley (edited 03-08-2001).]

racer1320
Mar 8th, 01, 3:29 PM
Stacy, it sure sounds like you've collasped the lifters. DO NOT turn it down after the pushrod is snug.

Do a search on either my user name or the topic of valve adjustment. Read my description on the only way to do it right, EO/IC method.

What your trying to achieve is a SLIGHT drag or resistance not snug when turning/spinning the pushrods with your fingers. It's easier if you have poly locks. Either way once at that point then turn down 1/4 turn. However you must have the lifter on the heel of the cam for each lobe when doing this procedure.

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racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.



[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 03-08-2001).]

stacey honn
Mar 8th, 01, 5:02 PM
OK guys fill me in on what I could have done wrong. When the motor was on the stand I did just what the instructions told me. It does run very healthy. When cold can hardly hear them. Can they be considered collapsed and still pump a s--t load of oil onto the fenders?

BillK
Mar 8th, 01, 5:33 PM
Stacy,
Before you go any further, I think you need to have someone "show" you how to adjust the valves. I have come to the realization that valve adjustment has got to be one of the most difficult things to describe to someone in writing, or even over the phone. Those of us that do it for a living can do it with our eyes closed, but there is a "feel" for it that almost has to be taught in person. You are about an hour north of Matoon if my map is correct. Call Ian at Matoon Machine / Engine Works. His number is (217)258-8383. He used to work for me until he moved out to Matoon. He is a very easy going guy and knows engines very well. I am certain if you asked him, he would show you how to adjust the valves. I am sure he probably has an engine there at the shop to use. If he refuses (he wont )....tell him Mr Bill said he better do it !!
It sort of sounds like you have a bad set of lifters, or perhaps the fast bleed ones got stuck in the box by mistake. Did you assemble the motor ?? If so do you remember the lifter part number ? It should be on the lifter if it is a real Comp Cams lifter. The fast bleed lifters will collapse like you are describing when they lose oil pressure.
The other thing you need to do is to get a second opinion on the "noise" What is noisy to you may be perfectly normal for a performance motor, even though that particular cam should not be. Are you running roller tip, or full roller rockers ? I know from experience that the Comp Roller Tip rockers make a slight amount of noise.
Three thousanths clearance is a bit more than I normally like to run, but you have plenty of oil pressure so that should not be a problem.
Without actually being there, we are all guessing as to the problem. I really think you need to find someone local to take a look / listen.
Hope this helps,

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Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

1971 Heavy Chevy - original owner
Team Chevelle #100

racer1320
Mar 8th, 01, 6:19 PM
Stacey, Bill is right. If it's possible have someone show you this method. However I've done a search in the Engine and drivetrain forum using EO-IC and valve adjustment for search words. Here are two links but there are many others.
www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum9/HTML/004403.html (http://www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum9/HTML/004403.html)
www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum9/HTML/004920 (http://www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum9/HTML/004920)

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racer's '68 (http://www.homestead.com/headsupchevelles/page13.html)

10.83@123MPH n/a
1.45 60 foot
3900 lbs.

stacey honn
Mar 8th, 01, 8:06 PM
I'd like to thank everyone for thier input. I did the valves exacly the way it should be. exhaust open snug up intake pushrod. Crank motor intake open then going almost closed then do exhaust. Fired the beast up. Thought I had it liked but after about 5 min. TICK TICK TICK. Not clackin, like it's ready to throw a pushrod through the cover. Just an uncomfortable feeling I have.
Bill, I'm going to call Ian and maybe get with him and have him take a listen.
Thanks again Everyone

Gandalf80
Mar 8th, 01, 8:19 PM
I have the crane fast bleed lifters in my 454 and they tick no matter what. You can adjust them any way you like it doesn't matter. I probably re-adjusted them about 5 times before I just decided it must be normal because others have said the same thing. I adjusted them with the EO-IC method racer is recommending and it's very easy to do and really accurate. You just need to have the right feel for when the pushrod has the right tension on it.

My previous engine was a 350 and it had rhoads lifters in it, it made the same tick that my 454 does with the crane fast bleeds. I kind of like it, I don't need a loud exhaust, my engine attracts enough attention on it's own.


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Chris Dagenais
Saskatchewan
'71 Malibu with a home built 454!
"Hard work MAY pay of in the long run, but laziness pays off NOW"
My Page (http://www.ycworld.net)

stacey honn
Mar 9th, 01, 4:26 AM
The engine is all back together and I'm going to drive it a little.
Everyone keeps telling me about bleed off lifters. Let me just say this thing ticks at all RPM's. So I don't think they are the bleeding kind.

Gandalf80
Mar 9th, 01, 5:29 AM
Mine also tick at all rpm's.

chevelleracer
Mar 9th, 01, 6:14 AM
you might want to check your springs a broke inner valve spring can give you the same sound also if the top of the valve stem is to short the rocker will push on the retainer making a clicking sound .good luck and let us know what you find.

Mytmouse
Mar 9th, 01, 9:30 AM
Just want to clarify what I am calling a clacking sound. I replaced mine because I had a distinct ticking noise occaisionally on the drivers side. After I put the Rhoads lifters in I hear a "general" more uniform noise that is distinctly different than the one sticky lifter. I have termed that a clacking sound. In no way does it sound like there is something ready to bust out of there, but a more uniform, more subtle, "lifter" noise. This is normal as defined by Rhoads so I am not going to worry about it. I have opened this thing up a few times and I now get higher RPMs with my current set-up. My guess is somewhere between 500-1000 RPMS but have only pushed it to the aditional 500. Based on every thing that has been discussed here and the input you have given, you may not even have a problem. Maybe Bill's aquaintance can help finalize this.

Good Luck again

Mytmouse

------------------
67 SS396 350HP 4 sp 3:55 Posi Butternut Yellow w/Black Vinyl (http://www.pascale.org/Muscle_Cars/Mytmouse/mytmouse.html)
68 RS Z/28 302 350+Hp? 4sp 4:10 Posi, Euro Red on Black (http://www.pascale.org/Muscle_Cars/Myts_Mouse/myts_mouse.html)
70 SS396 350HP 4 sp 3:55 Posi, Black on Black (http://www.pascale.org/Muscle_Cars/Myt_70/myt_70.html)

Mytmouse A.K.A. Robert Stacho
ACES Member # 04359

[This message has been edited by Mytmouse (edited 03-09-2001).]