Hi i just added a ford solinoid to my 69 396
w/ headers.It has a HEI distributor. I added it to prevent heat soak. I used the diagram that was suplied by this web site.
Ok this is my problem you know how on the steering column the ignition key goes from
off, to on, then to start.To start the car your suposed to go from off
directly start then when the car starts it drops back down to on right? But when I try
to start it, right when i get into the on position it tries to start, but the starter stays on all the time. What is wrong with my wiring.I need it to start when the key gets to start, not on, then the drive gear would drop back down again after the motor is runing. Please Help... Bowtiebubba

bowtiebubba;

Assuming you followed the instructions correctly, I don't think the problem is with the wiring, but in the adjustment of the ignition switch.

When you work the key, it pulls on a metal rod that goes down to the ignition switch, that is mounted about half way down the steering column.

Keep in mind that it "pulls" on the rod, and not "pushes". If you want, and I would not get insulted, look under the dash and verify which way the rod moves while working the key.

The ignition switch should be held in location by two screws (with hex heads, so a wrench fits). The switch bracket has slots so that it can be moved up and down the column a small amount.

If this doesn't do it, the switch may be bad.

It sounds like you want to move the switch upward on the column a small amount.

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Wes. Vann
Technical Reference section
Gold Member #5

One point I'd like to make, Ford solenoid and HEI do nothing to eliminate heat soaked starter/solenoid. Sorry, that's just the way it works.

Concur with IgnitionMan. I took his advise and install a $4.00 Auto Zone Heat Shield on my 79 EL Camino. This cure my heat soak problems. Several of my friends also installed this cheap little piece of steel. To the person the problem was fixed. Heat is is our biggest in Texas, if this works here it should work almost anywhere.

The HEI does nothing for getting around the problem, but even though the starter solenoid will be just as heat soaked, the external solenoid does provide a solution to getting more energy to it so that it will function properly.
Alot of people think that you are somehow bypassing the starter solenoid by adding the external one...that is not true. It will get the same amoumt of heat and use as it did before...it's just less likely to leave you stranded because it now has enough energy to engage, even when hot.

Without wars starting, adding another buss bar (Ford solenoid) into the starter circuit doesn't add any more energy than just using the stock GM solenoid only. All that is achieved is there is another electrical connection to arc and corrode in the circuit, just in a another place.

The stock GM solenoid still functions exactly as it did without the added Ford solenoid, good or bad.

The only benefit I see from the remote mount Ford solenoid is the ability to easily turn the engine with a starter button, because the solenoid is easier to get at to connect up the remote starter button.

There isn't anything in the Ford solenoid to increase energy to the GM solenoid at all, no step-up of energy. Sorry, doesn't give anything more than stock voltage/amperage (energy) to the large battery post of the GM solenoid.

Does absloutely nothing to correct, or even help heat soaked GM on-starter solenoids.

[This message has been edited by IgnitionMan (edited 05-18-2000).]

I have to disagree. The remote solenoid provides a lower resistance path from the battery to the starter solenoid. Instead of power going through all those wires, connectors and switches (start wire to starter solenoid) it gets to the starter solenoid terminal straight from the battery through the remote solenoid and through bigger wire. I know for a fact that my problem was voltage drop in the start wire (big purple wire). The solenoid itself draws 10-20 amps and it doesn't take much resistance to drop the voltage to the point that the solendoid will not engage. I have since removed the remote solenoid because I didn't like the looks of it on my show car. I now have a hidden jumper wire I can open the hood and touch to the battery. I haven't had to use this wire since I also disconnected the neutral safety switch wire going to the console and jumpered it.
It is a long path from battery to starter solenoid, especially if you have a console shifter. Goes through many connectors, start switch, neutral safety switch, and lots of wire. The remote solenoid eliminates these resistances.
True, this doesn't prevent heat soak, but it does compensate for a heat induced resistance in the solenoid and solenoid circuit. This will only correct a condition that occurs when you try to start the car and the solendoid will not click. If it clicks (engages) and it still won't start then adding a remote solenoid will not help.

Are you sure you followed the wiring diagram? Sounds like you are getting the start signal in the on position. The purple wire that used to go to the starter solenoid should be disconnected from there, spliced and run to the S terminal on the remote solenoid.
Try this link for wiring a remote solenoid http://www.chevelles.com/techref/ftecref4.html


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Steve Strasemeier (70SS 396, Fathom Blue/White Stripes)


[This message has been edited by Steve S (edited 05-18-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Steve S (edited 05-18-2000).]

Consider the voltage/amperage path from battery to solenoid on stock GM system.

Large positive wire from battery positive terminal, direct to large voltage input post of solenoid, no other path, then inside the solenoid, from large post through solenoid actuated buss bar, to starter terminal in solenoid to starter motor. Path is direct, with only one buss bar to get dirty or pitted, and resist voltage/amperage. This direct input to the stock GM solenoid HAS NO OTHER PATHS to go through.

Adding another bus bar and extra length of positive wire from starter side of Ford solenoid to GM solenoid ADDS more paths and another buss bar to corroDe and pit, DOES NOT ADD ANY VOLTAGE/AMPERAGE CARRYING ABILITY to the system, just another magnetic switch (buss bar-cable-terminals) for voltage to go through. Does nothing to increase voltage/amperage at the starter windings from input at GM solenoid still mounted on GM starter motor.

Remember, now, we are still using the GM solenoid on the starter, not removing it or replacing it with a direct shunt starter motor.

Also adding the connector on the GM solenoid from the large positive post to the small "S" terminal does nothing but eliminate the S wire from the ignition switch to operate the GM solenoid, powering the GM solenoid "S" terminal from the Ford solenoid.

Does nothing to help starter, since system still uses the same GM soleniod on the starter it ALWAYS did. You say heat! Well, heat is the same in the GM solenoid with either solenoid system used, GM only or GM/Ford. Fix the broken GM solenoid, ditch the Ford stuff, mit ain't needed.

Now, common sense here, why add another path and obstruction in the voltage/amperage path if it ain't doin' nothin'? Answer, not good common sense to add potential problem point with extra connections from starter wire from Ford soleniod and from Ford solenoid itself.

Very obvious fix is to FIX THE BUSTED GM SOLENOID, leave the fast buck, ultra super trick, un-needed Ford stuff off the car.

Disagree all you want, but you need to go back to electronics school, learn basic resistance, current paths and starter stuff.

No flaming here, just see people believing incorrect info from some parts makers on what some parts do, and do not do.

Easy to understand example, you have an electric motor, with one positive feed wire from a battery for power. Electric motor is actuated by a push button in line, between battery and motor, easy circuit, path is direct, just like GM solenoid and starter motor. Only one interruption, the push button. Now, you add another push button someplace between battery and first push button, keep your finger on first button constantly, like bussing the S term to the battery terminal on the GM sloenoid, then use the second push button to operate the motor. No added voltage/amperage advantage from second button, just a different place to put the motor operating button. Second button is the Ford solenoid in the GM starter system. No gain. May even develop into a problem from decaying internal terminals in time.

Why is this easy stuff so hard for some people to understand? I think too much mis-information to the general automotive public from within the aftermarket marketing system. It ain't computer chip design.

[This message has been edited by IgnitionMan (edited 05-19-2000).]

This has NOTHING to do with the current going through the solenoid's high current contacts ( battery and starter terminals) and has EVERYTHING to do with supplying a stronger current source to the "s" terminal of the solenoid. Anybody who has ever been stranded by a heat soaked solenoid will tell you that if you short the battery terminal to the "s" terminal the solenoid will engage. Why? Because you have overcome all of the drops in the purple "s" terminal wiring, as stated in Steve's post. ]As a electromagnet (which a solenoid is) heats up, it's flux density decreases, therefore requiring more energy to develop the same amount of magnetism it did when cold.
When someone sees an external solenoid wired as they are typically wired ( as shown in the tech ref area of this site), with the "s "terminal shorted to the battery terminal, and the external solenoid being installed in the battery cable line, they might not really understand what is being accomplished. Personally, I have a different way of accomplishing the same thing that might be easier for someone to understand:
http://personal.riverusers.com/~mcphelps/external.jpg

Again, it's all about energizing the solenoid.

A point needs to made here. Factory engineers have undoubtly factored all this into the design of the stock parts. I think the problems are going to come from using inferior aftermarket parts. I am a firm believer in using genuine parts. The upfront cost is not the bottom line cost. In other words if the GM solenoid, part # 1114458, cost $30 and the aftermarket from CSK or the Zone is $10.49 (I checked) but the cheap one fails when hot, where is the savings? I was working at a GM dealership when these cars were new and drove a 68 SS L-78 for over 12 years and the starter performed flawlessly even in the AZ heat (and mine was equipped with large tube headers). Buy the good stuff for your Chevelle and save the zone parts for the minivan.

------------------
Philip Valentine
Gold Member #42
Sometimes I think I understand everything, then I regain consciousness
Under Construction Car & Page (http://www.citlink.net/~bowtie)

Well, what I see here is an incorrect diagram. Red wire is not present with Ford solenoid, is now directed to Ford solenoid by yellow wire.

Then, green wire now goes to where it is traced, S terminal of solenoid, AND where the red wire went to large post on solenoid.

Drawing shows way too much amperage to the S terminal, and can accelerate solenoid damage.

Just another crutch, not a fix.

Plain truth of the matter is if the solenoid is in good shape, then heat soak shouldn't be a problem, and you won't have start problems.

Which leads me back to "fix the broke GM solenoid and it'll work just fine".

hay, fix it any way you choose, I'll stick to the right way. Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IgnitionMan:
Drawing shows way too much amperage to the S terminal, and can accelerate solenoid damage.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talk about needing to go back to learn about electricity...

bowtiebubba

I personally think a second solenoid is fixing the symptom, not the cause but I can see how/why it might work.

The voltage drop is in the purple wire which pulls in the solenoid, not in the internal contacts that energize the starter motor.

I just don't see in this diagram how the operating coil of the ford solenoid gets it's negetive ground http://www.chevelles.com/forum/confused.gif
http://members.primary.net/~cys.dean/images/external_2.jpg

To answer your question though, I think you have the purple wire connected to the "hot when on" terminal, not the "hot when cranking" terminal


------------------
Dean Call
Team Gold member #3
A.C.E.S. # 00235
Mid America Chevelle Club (http://macc.chevelles.net) #001
chevelles.net (http://chevelles.net)
My 69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/deans69.jpg)



[This message has been edited by Dean (edited 05-19-2000).]

M.A.D. Enterprises offers an external solenoid kit, this coupled with 2/0 welding cable battery cables(custom made) has never let me down in 3years, even under the most severe heat conditions. I also run an high output alt. Never has the engine failed to start with just a tick of the key. Nor have I ever had any melt down problems. M.A.D. includes a detailed wiring layout for the starter and alt. setup, I would not even consider any other setup. Futher more my Accel HEI loves the amps supplied by this combo.

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jtkirk13 (steve gold#222)

www.angelfire.com/mo2/chevellewagon

Dang; this has become quite long and heated (bad pun). Here is my two cents worth (and all comments are related to the wiring shown in the "techref").

Using the ford solenoid does not stop any heat from getting to the starter. Pretty obvious.

The change to the Ford solenoid (as shown in the "techref")does two things that help and you have to know the sequence of events when you turn the key to start your car. The first is that electricity goes from the key, to the neutral safety switch, through the connector at the firewall and then down to the starter solenoid. That energizes the solenoid and throws out the gear to the flywheel. Once fully extended, there is a set of contacts within the solenoid that make contact. This directs the electricity at the large terminal mounted on the solenoid to the starter motor. In other words, if the solenoid is unable to fully extend, the contacts can't work and the motor will not work.

Item #1; By using the ford solenoid (or for this item alone, you could use a bosch relay) you don't have to worry about the voltage drop across items like the neutral safety switch or firewall bulkhead connection. The solenoid (or relay) can provide more current to pick the stock chevy solenoid!

Item #2; This one is in direct conflict with Ignitionman and may be the result of different wiring diagrams floating around! If you look at the diagram in the "techref", you will notice a jumper at the stock solenoid. This is the same wiring that is provided in the kit sold my "Mad". What this does is by-pass the contacts that are within the chevy solenoid housing. YOU ARE NOT INCEASING THE NUMBER OF POTENTIAL VOLTAGE DROPS! If you want to get picky, you are removing the point within the "heat soaked" chevy solenoid and replacing it with the one (mounted in a cool location) by the Ford solenoid. (you should take apart an old solenoid and see how bad these contacts can get!)

In regards to the comment made by 64elcamino about the chevy engineers thinking this all out; I doubt that they were conserned with cars that are better than 30 years old! In order to have my car in the same electrical condition as when it was designed, I would not only have to buy all new GM parts such as the starter, solenoid, neutral safety switch, and ignition switch, I'd also have to replace the corroded connection points such as the firewall bulkhead connector. I'd rather just buy a 15 dollar ford solenoid!

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Wes. Vann
Technical Reference section
Gold Member #5

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wes V:
there is a set of contacts within the solenoid that make contact.
.....................

If you look at the diagram in the "techref", you will notice a jumper at the stock solenoid.......
What this does is by-pass the contacts that are within the chevy solenoid housing.
........
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wes, this subject seems to get more interesting every time it comes up.

Excuse my ignorance but I don't see how the original chevy solenoid's contacts are being bypassed as It still has to pull in to complete the circuit to the starter motor windings.

Following the path, all I can see that the secondary relay/solenoid (which is connected in series with the original)does is send power to the "input side" of the original solenoid and through the jumper to the "pick" or operating coil of the solenoid but not to the "output" side.

http://www.chevelles.com/techref/tt4b.gif


------------------
Dean Call
Team Gold member #3
A.C.E.S. # 00235
Mid America Chevelle Club (http://macc.chevelles.net) #001
chevelles.net (http://chevelles.net)
My 69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/deans69.jpg)

[This message has been edited by Dean (edited 05-20-2000).]

Yup, there Gene, I sure do need to get a better electronic education, SURE. Can you tell I totally dis-agree with the half way measure used with the Ford solenoid?? Guess so.

You guys just fix it any way you can crutch the system, overamp the "magnetic switch" part of the GM solenoid, but please don't get on my case because you choose to treat the problem with no more than a weak resolution.

This particular "weak in electronics" person will ALWAYS choose to fix the problem properly, not crutch or half-way go around the correct fix.

Like I said, fix the broken GM solenoid, that is the right way to do it. If you want a place to install a starter button in the engine compartment, then do it from the GM sloenoid, with two wires and a dedicated button, not the Ford relay boondoggle.

Heated, not even, I just get pissed when I see people insisting the best way to get across the street is going completely around the world instead of just crossing the street, then telling me I am stupid or dumb for simply crossing that same street to get to the other side.

Draw all the lines you want, buy MAD's kit, anyone can do is this crutch it up, half way measure, with over the counter parts, for ten bucks or less. MAD's kit is $16.95, without solenoid.

A good GM replacement solenoid to really fix the problem is about $10.00/$15.00 money. I'll keep doing this new GM solenoid fix.

Weak in electronics my ass.

[This message has been edited by IgnitionMan (edited 05-20-2000).]

WHOOOAH! YOU GUYS ARE GETTING MORE HOT UNDER THE COLLAR THEN A BIG BLOCK STARTER SOLENOID IN JULY!

Chill out!

I'm going to scan a picture of a cut-a-way view of a starter and solenoid.

I guess I'm kinda confused, I THOUGH HEAT SOAK WAS THE RESULT OF MECHANICAL PROBLEMS--THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL LITTLE SPRING INSIDE THE STARTER SOLENOID "THE PLUNGER RETURN SPRING" IS WHAT ABSORBS THE HEAT, CAUSING IT TO EXPAND--MAKING MORE MECHANICAL RESISTANCE FOR THE STARTER SOLENOID TO DEAL WITH.

AM I WRONG????? WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ELECTRICAL ISSUES??!

YES, ANY RESISTANCE IN POWER FEED WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE, BUT IF YOU'VE GOT A STUBBORN SPRING, YOU CAN PROVIDE A "TON OF AMPS" AND STILL NOT GET THE JOB DONE, AS THE SOLENOID CAN'T BUDGE A SUBBORN SPRING IF IT'S NOT DESIGNED FOR THAT.

I EVEN SAW A POST INDICATING A GM SERVICE REPLACEMENT PART (A DIFFERENT SPRING--LESS MECHANICAL RESISTANCE TO START WITH) USED TO "SOLVE" HOT START PROBLEMS.


BTW NEEVVVER had this problem with my '70 307 because the starter sits farther away from the block than if it was a big block, heat never reaches the solenoid enough to cause problems, so I'm assuming this is MECHANCAL and not electrical, although there is always potential for trouble when circuits build any resistance, causing a voltage drop.
SO SOMEONE FILL ME IN...OR FLAME ME DARE I SAY.

LETS WORK TOGETHER BEFORE WE START YELLING @$##HOLE AT EACH OTHER.

Joe

-auto radio repair tech
-building team chevelle's radio info pages.

Well, I'm wrong about bypassing the contacts within the stock solenoid. The truth is that I typed it up without rethinking it!

That's the last that I'm adding to this argument.

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Wes. Vann
Technical Reference section
Gold Member #5

Overamp, there is no way that adding a set of contacts to the battery cable in series with the original solenoid will cause it to overamp.

http://members.primary.net/~cys.dean/images/wavey.gif

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Dean Call
Team Gold member #3
A.C.E.S. # 00235
Mid America Chevelle Club (http://macc.chevelles.net) #001
chevelles.net (http://chevelles.net)
My 69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/deans69.jpg)

Hey, I'm not calling anyone anything, they're calling me dumb, stupid and a**hole, read it.

I am quite sure the proper fix is to replace the busted solenoid, not wire the whole City of New York power grid system into the starter system of the car.

I'm done with this, I choose to fix the problem correctly, and that is the end of that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IgnitionMan:
Hey, I'm not calling anyone anything, they're calling me dumb, stupid and a**hole, read it.
[i]

&lt;I can't find where anyone said that&gt;


I am quite sure the proper fix is to replace the busted solenoid, not wire the whole City of New York power grid system into the starter system of the car.

I'm done with this, I choose to fix the problem correctly, and that is the end of that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I-Man,I could't agree with you more (except the part where you said someone called you "dumb, stupid and a**hole")


"wire the whole City of New York power grid system" &lt;---that cracks me up but I get your point, Rember the "K.I.S.S. rule" guys.

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Ok, I'm done too.



------------------
Dean Call
Team Gold member #3
A.C.E.S. # 00235
Mid America Chevelle Club (http://macc.chevelles.net) #001
chevelles.net (http://chevelles.net)
My 69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/deans69.jpg)

If you read my post, I never said that this was "THE" solution, I said "the external solenoid does provide a solution to getting more energy to it so that it will function properly" (my words), and then what ensued was you basically saying I was wrong, there was no way it could do anything that would improve starting and " need to go back to electronics school, learn basic resistance, current paths and starter stuff." (your words). Then while trying to discredit my wiring diagram, you went way out in left field, and showed how little you really know about electricity. The only thing that I said directed at you was "Talk about needing to go back to learn about electricity...", but only because you said it first. I still contend that my discussions and explaination of the theory of operation contain no errors, while yours is basically incomprehendable from a technical standpoint. I would also like to point out that about half way through your rants you changed your position from "There isn't anything in the Ford solenoid to increase energy to the GM solenoid at all, no step-up of energy. Sorry, doesn't give anything more than stock voltage/amperage (energy) to the large battery post of the GM solenoid." to it being a crutch, and you would only fix it the "right way' ( which I guess maybe your way of admitting that startability is improved). My position all along has been what I originally posted. I never said you had to do this, or that it was the only fix, all I said was that while your were correct in stating that it does nothing to prevent a heat soaked solenoid, it does allow a heat soaked solenoid to funtion properly.

If you don't like being called an idiot, then don't call people idiots.



[This message has been edited by Gene McGill (edited 05-21-2000).]

Didn't, you did, by implication, to me. Don't give a damn, anymore, ain't worth trying to point out correct fix.

Have to have my say. Like I said in my original post, if after heat soak the solenoid does not click then the remote solenoid will overcome your problem. Your problem may be more than just the solenoid, it can also be caused by that big purple wire getting hot, incresing its reasistance and therefore the voltage at the solenoid drops to the point of not being able to pull in. Most of the time it is a combination of both a weak solenoid and old brittle wiring and bad contacts. By the way I graduated with honors with a degree in Electrical Engineering. With 35 years of experience I don't "need to go back to electronics school, learn basic resistance, current paths and starter stuff". The ford solenoid requires less current to pull in( I have tested them) and they are mounted away from the extreme heat of the engine/exhaust. Yes you could get lucky and change the gm solenoid but with 30yr old wiring/connections/switches, more likely than not you won't fix it for long. I stick by my original statement as a work around for changing all the wiring/connections/switches/solenoid- The remote solenoid provides a much lower resistance path to the gm solenoid (I never said the battery connection to the starter was better). The example of two switches in series does not address the solenoid circuit, you are ignoring the energy required to engage the solenoid.

------------------
Steve Strasemeier (70SS 396, Fathom Blue/White Stripes)




[This message has been edited by Steve S (edited 05-22-2000).]

Well guys I have read all the postings on this subject (argument) over the last month and here's what I think.... I have the Ford set up on my small block 67 Malibu. It works great for me and that's all I care about at this point. I tried the "Heat Shield" and it didn't work for me at all it was a waste of my money. I tried the "Blanket Style" What a joke that was. I could have just put that cash in my fireplace and got more heat out of it than it stopped from getting to my starter. Whether it fixes the actual problem or just the symptom I don't know and I really don't care. The problem is fixed for me regaurdless and that's all that matters to me. So if it works and the car starts every time, I don't see what the big deal is. Can someone explain this to me. Is it a matter of using a Ford part on a Chevrolet 'cause if that's the deal someone needs to get a life. I'm sure the other things work for a lot of people and that's great, at least their cars start for them. I don't see why anyone has to get so angry about something so petty in life. It can end in a split second, and arguing over things as much as this has, is just a waste of what precious time we have and personally I'm glad I don't I have to think or deal with the problem again. I hope I have not offended anyone here with this posting because that is not what's intended at all. David.

Man!

And I thought my original signature line sparked off the sensitives. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

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Joe G.
ChicagoChevelle68
Any car past 1972 is just simply transportation. And then there are those who enjoy post '72 autos, those who like ricers, those who like trucks, those who like motorcycles and then there are those who like to walk.
http://pages.about.com/chicagochevelle68/Welcome.html
josephguzman@yahoo.com (http://josephguzman@yahoo.com)
ICQ# 64752614

I agree with ignitionman I have been a lic. electrician for 15 yrs. all you are doing is addind another switch to the mix if you want to do this right you need to remove the gm solonoid altogether, if anything the use of two solonoids will cause greater v-drop, v-drop is a factor of the length of the conductor and the size of the conductor the larger the gauge wire the less v-drop I say loose the ford solonoid get yourself some new larger gauge cables and new battery connections, and this heat shield also sounds like a good defence aginst heat soak.
Any thing more is just adding fuel to the fire.
72RAGTP

Bowtiebubba:
You probably have the "S" and "I" terminal wires switched at the Ford relay. That would give 12V to the Ford "S" terminal with the key in the "On" position, causing the starter to crank.
I'm not real sure, but with the solenoid mounted with the terminals on the bottom half, I think the "s" terminal is the one on the left.

added: just to clarify, when I said "the one on the left", I meant with regards to just the small terminals. I have also verified that the "s" terminal is indeed the one on the left, again: that is when the solenoid is mounted with the terminals in the bottom half.

[This message has been edited by Gene McGill (edited 05-24-2000).]

Damn, where was I on this one last month? High school science class; two things that destroy or break down a magnetic field, heat and shock vibration. The solenoid is a magnetic field when energized, and it's the heat from the engine compartment that tends to weaken or break down the magnetic field, thus disabling the solenoid. The heat method for degrading a magnetic field can be easily proven, but I've never tried beating the hell out of a magnet with a hammer to destroy its magnetism.

Randy, whew, you missed another great beat up IgnitionMan for being right episode, again. You gotta pay more attention, as these events come in rapid succession. Much fun to be had from any one or more of them.

Dean Call's exellent drawing is correct, nice job. Simple, to the point, easily understood and completely right, if you wish to use a remote solenoid.

Randy, A remote solenoid is great for engine maintenance, but won't fix a heat soaked, elevated heat resistance problem in the GM solenoid, just as you said.

Why is it that most people just grab a hammer and beat the daylights out of the magnets inside a starter when it won't work? What a mess that makes, and never fixes it. Fun to watch others do, though. Good comedy show.

Okay, I think everyone who is anyone has had a say on this thread, please, can we finally put it to rest already?!

Joe