I just installed a Hitachi starter and I think I did everything right but I want to make sure. The new Hitachi only has provisions for two leads (battery and ignition). My car has two small leads and the battery lead. I am using a Mallory electronic distributor.

One lead is fatter than the other and goes into the firewall so I assumed that was the ignition lead. The thinner wire I left unconnected. The other end of this wire gets spliced into the distributor leads. My car already had this electronic Mallory distributor installed so I don't know exactly what it is spliced into. The ditributor has a simple 3 wire harness that plugs into either terminal of the coil and a ground on the coil bracket. There is no ballast resistor from what I can see.

The car cranks really nice and sounds pretty cool to boot. My question is what was this extra wire for and what was it for in the first place. I am concerned because although the car cranks it doesn't fire up. It's been sitting for a month so I may have another issue. I only cranked it 4 times then let it be till I could post this message.

I guess I never though about it but what exactly tells the distributor to start generating spark when you turn on your car?

Sounds like you are talking about the Yellow bypass wire that originally went from the starter's "R" terminal to the coil's + terminal.

It's job is to send full 12 volts to the coil but only during cranking to bypass the original resistive wire from the bulkhead connector to the coil's + terminal which only supplies 9 volts to the coil when running.

Yes! That is the wire I am talking about, the R or "Motor" terminal.

So,

Do I need that wire or is it unnecessary with my electronic ignition?

Okay, I may have found the solution. I ran across this from Jeg's:

What do I do with the wire that connected to the “R” terminal on the original starter
(on part nos. 10001-03, 10020-22 and 10040)? In vehicles originally equipped with a breaker
point ignition, the wiring harnesses “R” circuit was a ballast resistor bypass. This terminal is “no connection”
when the starter is at rest and is +12VDC while cranking. This circuit provided +12VDC to the ignition coil
during cranking for easier engine starting. Cars that do not have a ballast resistor
(ie: HEI, MSD or other aftermarket ignition systems) should not need this
connection. In most cases this wire will be eliminated. However, cars equipped
with a ballast resistor (ie: Breaker Point or Mallory Unilite) may need this harness.
If the engine has no ignition during cranking, then the wiring of the coil is going to
require an “R” terminal signal. To accomplish this, install an “R” Terminal Diode Kit,
part number 555-10038, sold separately.

I AM using a Mallory Unilite so I guess I need that Kit. This is what the kit looks like:


http://zumaz.com/images/diodekit.jpg

Is there something special about that wire? WIth the exception of that black shrink wrap it looks like a plain old 14ga wire.

Just got off the phone with Jeg's, they said it is just a regular wire. Will post the results...off to my car!!!

It's say it's a diode kit. Probably whats under the shrink tube. May be designed to send 12v to the coil while starting but prevent voltage from going from the coil to the starter once the car is running?

I think you're right. I would sure love to crimp one in myself to get up and running. Running a straight wire didn't work either.

Here is what I have found out:

My (stock) coil has two wires on the + side. One is from the distributor and the other is from the firewall (ignition switch). The - side only has 1 wire connected, the green wire from my Unilite distributor.

With a voltmeter the + side reads nothing till I turn the ignition switch to on where it gets only 6 volts. Cranking the engine gives me the same 6 volts. I do not get spark this way. I assume the coil does not have enough juice. I assume this is what they call a "resistor wire" setup.

With the extra "diode-less" wire I ran I get nothing at all on that wire alone UNTILL I crank where I get a full 12 volts. Here is the scary part. When I hook up the "diode" wire to the + on the coil with the other 2 wires I get 0 on the meter in both ignition on and off positions. Worse yet, if I leave the ignition in the on position it starts to smoke!

Obviously I disconnected that wire and ran right back to my computer.

Help!

Hmm , I see that a diode is a unidirectional device. I really think I need one now. Does anyone know what value diode is in this wire?

I'm curious as to why there is a wire from the distributor connected to the coil's + terminal.

I'm not familiar with a Mallory Unilite, does it require a hot wire?

{edit}
Never mind I see that it does.

Originally posted by dizzyzuma:
Hmm , I see that a diode is a unidirectional device. I really think I need one now. Does anyone know what value diode is in this wire? Yes it is unidirectional, if you have 6v at the coil it has to be rated at 6v, you'll want to go higher. Also has to handle the current demand of the coil while cranking, don't know what that is. It doesn't hurt to oversize it, like 20v 20 amp or 15v 15amp should handle it. You don't want something too big in size.

Ha! I found this page:
(http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/faq_s_-_starters.html#starter6)

The key text is as follows:

If the engine has no ignition during cranking, then the wiring of the coil is going to require an ‘R’ terminal signal. To accomplish this, connect a 3A/400PIV diode (or Powermaster part # 600 ) in line with the MOTOR SIDE of the solenoid. (Note: This is the terminal on the solenoid which has the cable from inside the starter motor connected to it. It is opposite the BATTERY terminal on the solenoid. The cathode or banded end of the diode goes toward the starter. This allows current to go from the starter to the coil and yet not from the coil to the starter.)

I found the diode at radioshack. Here are some relevant links:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F002%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=276%2D1144&hp=search

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/1N/1N5404.html

It's amazing what a simple starter replacement can turn into. Believe me, I kicked myself for not just buying the stock replacement earlier today. Oh well, I am hopeful now.

I will post the results tommorow!

Originally posted by dizzyzuma:


It's amazing what a simple starter replacement can turn into. Believe me, I kicked myself for not just buying the stock replacement earlier today. Oh well, I am hopeful now.

I will post the results tommorow! Dude, go buy a car in boxes and piece's and try to restore it. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Dude, go buy a car in boxes and piece's and try to restore it. I don't have that kind of time OR raw talent but I am into learning new things. An occasional challenge like this is enough for me thank you! :D

Well looks like you have it under control now.

I learn from people asking questions here myself.

I didn't even know you could use a stock coil with that distributor and I didn't know that a newer style distributor needed a ballast resister rather than a full 12 volt supply.
The last Mallory distributor I had was on one of my old flat head Fords many years ago I think.

Yeah, it seems like everyone runs an HEI around here. I almost gave up and got one myself.

Another way around the problem is to use the Unilite with an ignition control box like the Hyfire series, MSD, Accell, etc. Apparently that would do away with the need for that extra diode wire.

The PDF I downloaded from Mallory states that the ignition module in the distributor will burn out if you don't feed it from a resistor wire or ballast. It does seem odd that you still need full power to crank but a reduced power for regular operation.

I'm going to buy the tech book from M.A.D. and try to educate myself some more.

Originally posted by 71metbu:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dizzyzuma:


It's amazing what a simple starter replacement can turn into. Believe me, I kicked myself for not just buying the stock replacement earlier today. Oh well, I am hopeful now.

I will post the results tommorow! Dude, go buy a car in boxes and piece's and try to restore it. graemlins/thumbsup.gif </font>[/QUOTE]What's that mean? This site is about trying to help people? I've learned a lot here and I'm willing to share what little I know. I don't know everything and never will. dizzyzuma is trying to learn, did you start out knowing everything?
dizzyzuma graemlins/thumbsup.gif good luck.

Originally posted by Finally:
What's that mean? They way I interpreted it, 71metbu was comparing what he, himself is in the process of doing to replacing a starter.

Originally posted by Dean:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Finally:
What's that mean? They way I interpreted it, 71metbu was comparing what he, himself is in the process of doing to replacing a starter. </font>[/QUOTE]Then I apologize to 71metbu! I read it differently, sorry! graemlins/waving.gif

Okay guys, I installed the diode and still no luck. I'm thinking I might have shorted something out when I first tried the wire with no diode (because the brainiac at Jeg's told me I could!).

As a review... The only thing I changed on my car was from a dead starter to a Hitachi ProPlus. Since all these high torque minis lack a dedicated R terminal I realized that in my case I needed a diode wire. The Mallory Unilite distributor had already been working for years. This distributor must use a ballast resistor or resistance wire as a points type system does hence the need for the extra juice at ignition via the R teminal.

http://zumaz.com/images/3wires.jpg

This is where I stand:

Major problem #1: Whenever I hook the R terminal (yellow) wire to the ignition wire I get a short IF the ignition is on the "ON" position. No short occurs if the ignition is off. I tested this with the wires both on and off of the coil.

If I leave the yellow wire disconnected there is NO short.

Possible problem #2: With the igniton in the "ON" position the voltage of the ignition wire by itself is around 11 volts. If I hook the ignition and the ditributor wire to the coil together I only get about half that voltage, 5-6 volts. (In this test the R terminal wire is completely disconnected.) Is that normal? Does the coil dampen the voltage like that?

Other observations:

My car cranks really nicely but I have no spark.

The yellow R terminal wire does not have juice unless the car is cranking.

The only thing hooked up to the coil negative terminal is the green wire from the distributor harness.

My headlights are nice and bright and my dash gauges, etc. seem to be working just fine.

-------------------------

If I went to HEI or a Mallory igniton box I wouldn't need that R wire BUT would I still have this problem?

Is there another way to get the coil the juice it needs? A relay directly off the battery maybe?

Where's that red "distributor" wire go to?
Maybe your wire to coil (-) is green (normally black) but it should lead under the distributor cap to the points.
EDIT
I see what they are. Leave the yellow wire off. The car should fire without it by attaching only the resistor and Mallory wire.

#1 Did you buy a diode wire or make one, is the diode installed in the proper direction.
#2 Resistance wire is supposed to drop the voltage to the coil, a voltage drop only occurs in a complete circuit, not an open one with no current flow.

The red wire probably feeds the ignition module.

EDIT, I see John remembered this is an electronic ignition. Without the R wire will there be enough voltage to start? Depending on the current draw of the starter the battery voltage will drop while cranking. Which means the voltage out of the resistance wire will be even less. Don't know just wondering.

Originally posted by dizzyzuma:
Okay guys, I installed the diode and still no luck. I'm thinking I might have shorted something out when I first tried the wire with no diode (because the brainiac at Jeg's told me I could!).

Possibly blew the Mallory module

As a review... The only thing I changed on my car was from a dead starter to a Hitachi ProPlus. Since all these high torque minis lack a dedicated R terminal I realized that in my case I needed a diode wire. The Mallory Unilite distributor had already been working for years. This distributor must use a ballast resistor or resistance wire as a points type system does hence the need for the extra juice at ignition via the R teminal.

http://zumaz.com/images/3wires.jpg

This is where I stand:

Major problem #1: Whenever I hook the R terminal (yellow) wire to the ignition wire I get a short IF the ignition is on the "ON" position. No short occurs if the ignition is off. I tested this with the wires both on and off of the coil.

The "R" terminal should not have any connection to anything at all when the starter is not operating, but that's on a stock GM starter.

I would think the diode would not allow power to flow back into the new starter when the resistive wire became "hot" from the ignition.
Maybe that's the first clue?


If I leave the yellow wire disconnected there is NO short.

Possible problem #2: With the igniton in the "ON" position the voltage of the ignition wire by itself is around 11 volts. If I hook the ignition and the ditributor wire to the coil together I only get about half that voltage, 5-6 volts. (In this test the R terminal wire is completely disconnected.) Is that normal? Does the coil dampen the voltage like that?

Yes the resistive wire should lower the voltage but only when a load (coil) is applied.


Other observations:

My car cranks really nicely but I have no spark.

The yellow R terminal wire does not have juice unless the car is cranking.

The only thing hooked up to the coil negative terminal is the green wire from the distributor harness.

My headlights are nice and bright and my dash gauges, etc. seem to be working just fine.

-------------------------

If I went to HEI or a Mallory igniton box I wouldn't need that R wire BUT would I still have this problem?

Is there another way to get the coil the juice it needs? A relay directly off the battery maybe? According to Mallory all three wires should be on the coil's + terminal like you had it.

I think just as a test I would try connecting the Yellow and red only and see if it has spark while cranking. If not I'd guess the module is probably toast.

If I were you, I would probably drop in a 20.00 junk yard HEI distributor, especially after I read how often those 90.00 Mallory modules have left people stranded.

One last thought. The original problem may have been caused by a bad ignition switch. A switch that doesn't power the coil in START but only in RUN. The original starter masked and hid the problem.
If Dean's idea doesn't work, try hooking uo everything except for the yellow.
Run a jumper from battery (+) to coil (+). DON'T LEAVE THIS ON LONG BEFORE YOU START THE CAR. The coil and Mallory won't like it while the car is off. If the car starts problem is a bad switch and a HEI won't fix that. Remove jumper to shut down car.

Ahhh!!! Almost there guys!

The PowerMaster site I got my info from was wrong!!!
http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/faq_s_-_starters.html

The correct info should be (this I pulled off the Mallory site):

Solution:
If you use the 1 post on the starter solenoid for 12 volts under

cranking you will need to install a directional diode on that wire. If

you don't the starter will still get 12 volts from the ignition coil

and it will run on. The diode should be rated at 2 amps 200 volts or

so. The diode will have a wide band at one end with a upside down

triangle. The wide band goes toward the coil.

You see, I had the diode backwards. As soon as I made the correction the weird short ceased to exist! After a little gas in the carb it fired right up!

Points or Unilite distributors without an ignition control box absolutely need this R terminal wire! HEI ignitions don't need to worry about this obviously.

So, in review, a car with a Mallory Unilite or points with a mini starter needs three wires at the positive side of the coil: ignition (with resistive wire or a ballast hooked up), red wire from distributor and the "diode" wire from the starter's "R" terminal. The negative side only needs the green wire from the distributor. The last brown wire from the distributor just goes to ground.

Thanks for all the help and the suggestions! I am so relieved but I am not out of the woods just yet.

One last problem. I am getting a ticking noise. It is very noticeable especially when I drove down the block. It sounds like when something rubs on a header or exhaust pipe. It goes up and down with RPMs. Do you think I need to shim the starter away from the flywheel? I did stick a feeler gauge and found a .035 barely fits when the starter gear is DISengaged. I read .100 is where it should be. I don't have the right gauges to test for the backlash when I pull the gear out of the starter to mesh with the flywheel. Anyone had a problem like this?

P.S. John, I had the same thought as your last suggestion but I was too nervous to go through with it!

and Dean, the "R" terminal on my Hitachi does function like a stock GM one. It is only hot when cranking. You figure they should just wire the diode in the starter or give you the freakin 50 cent cable in case you need it!!! Jeg's is the only place that even mentions you might need this cable when you order a mini from them. I just made my own.

Just got back from putting in a shim! The noise is gone! I'm just guessing the shim is about .020 tall. There is another shim identical to that one left. I still hear a strange, one time, "tick tick" after the motor fires up and I bring the key back to "ON." Think I should put in the other shim?

I'll keep checking the teeth on both ends for the time being. I could just be being paranoid. tongue.gif

graemlins/hurray.gif I'm so glad to have my Chevelle up and running. Just wanted to say that without this forum I wouldn't have the courage to dive into my car and learn. Thanks to all of you that make it happen!

graemlins/hurray.gif This post ran longer then most of the ones in bench racing. Glad you got it running.

dizzyzuma,

Where did you buy the part from and what was the part number? I have the same problem your having?

Thanks!