When I got my car it had an electronic ignition in it (unilite), on the way home a pos (+) wire touched the body, and blew the ignition...when I got it i put points in it, I drove it around for about 2 months, then the points burnt up (actually the points looked fine, i think it is the condenser that went bad)...I put new ones in, but I am afraid to drive it around, i dont want to get stuck somewhere. The new points are working, but i dont know for how long. Anyone have any ideas what burnt the points so quick?

Someone probably eliminated the resistor wire when they installed the Unilite. The wire that supplies voltage to the positive terminal of the coil is a resistor type that reduces voltage to prevent the points from burning. Actually, there are two wires on the positive coil terminal, but one feeds voltage only when you are cranking the engine (the one from the starter solenoid). Most electronic ignition systems require a full twelve volts to operate efficiently. All you need to do is to install a ballast resistor in the wire that feeds voltage from the ignition switch run circuit. A two terminal Chrysler type will do the job. Just install it in series.

Wow i am very surprized you went back to points any how my self i just put hei on my 66 396 because i was afraid points would let me down i guess different stroks for different folks.

In 40+ years driving, points have never let me down. Driven points cars to electronic cars 10:1 miles. Electronic has left me sitting at the side of the road several times. Not averse to progress or change--just my experience. For what it's worth. My $0.02

here is my setup...

http://bootleggers.hypermart.net/ignition.gif

Is HEI reliable?, is it expensive?, and do you get the same preformance vs. points or electronic?

[This message has been edited by 69_Malibu (edited 06-25-2000).]

69_Malibu,

That's a not a good set-up.

You want the wire leading from the solenoid (R terminal) to go directly to the positive terminal on the coil. That way when you start the car, the solenoid contacts engage giving that wire a full 12 volts that should go to the coil to aid in starting. You have "the full 12 volt line" wired into the ballast resistor. Not good, this will drop the voltage during cranking which is the opposite of what you want.

It's during the running of the engine you want the voltage drop to the (+) terminal on the coil. If you have the resistor wire, why do you need the ballast resistor??? The ballast would only be needed if the resistor wire was NOT there or something was wrong with it (giving a full 12 volts the whole time).

What voltage are you meausuring when the engine is running at the + terminal on the coil. It should be less than 12 volts to make the points last longer. The ballast resistor is only needed if you have a regular wire from the ignition circuit, as it drops the voltage just like the factory resistive wire would have done to prevent point wear.

I'll post a pic in a little bit.

Joe

http://home.netcom.com/~radiojoe/ignition1.jpg


Hope that helps.

You see you only need the ballast if you are constantly getting 12 volts (during the normal engine running) at the (+) side of the coil. This is what burns up the points. If you have the factory resistor wire and it still works, just connect it back to the (+) terminal of the coil.

In my picture, I show a regular wire going from the ignition on circuit (I'm assuming that's what the former owner might have done since electronic ignitions require a full 12 volts all of the time). Don't short your solenoid wire and resistive wire together before the ballast.

BTW,

Nothin' wrong with points, I love modern technology but also fear it as well. I'm not going to be stranded in the middle of nowhere because a small silicon-based semi-conductor decides to crap out!

The '70 always been run on points!
http://home.netcom.com/~radiojoe/restore.html
http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif
Joe

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"Yes, I'm still workin' on those Chevelle radio pages!"

[This message has been edited by Coppertop (edited 06-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Coppertop (edited 06-25-2000).]

Ok, I should have mentioned a few more things, I have a Ford starter solinoid (the guy who owned it before me put it in). Also it is the factory installed resistor wire, however, at some time some one cut it about 10 inches before the coil, it is re attached, but does this affect the resistance? My friend masured it and said that i still need the ballest resistor. What should the Ohms and Voltage be before and after the ballast resistor? ohh and the (-) wire from the coil is attached to the points.

[This message has been edited by 69_Malibu (edited 06-25-2000).]

69_Malibu, you are Ok until the yellow wire at the resistor, move it from the ballast resistor to the coil plus terminal, and you will be OK.

What I am saying is the yellow wire from the I terminal, Ford solenoid goes directly to the coil plus term, not through the resistor wire. The way you have it, the bypass start wire (yellow, I) is resisted, doesn't want to be, wants to supply a full battery voltage to the coil for easier fire up with point systems.

Coppertop's system is correct for GM starter mounted solenoid only systems.

Ford I term and GM R term do the same function on each-other.

GM soleniod has to be bridged from large battery cable terminal to R term for Ford solenoid useage.

BTW, for those systems that have no ballast resistor in line (wire changeovers/retro-fits and new point systems), the NAPA ICR13 is the proper in-line ceramic resistor to use for GM point ignition systems.

[This message has been edited by IgnitionMan (edited 06-25-2000).]

I-Man,

Have a question for you,

What kind of voltage should I be seeing at my coil (+) terminal when the engine is running normally (not cranking).

I'm getting 11.63 volts at the (+) terminal, at 1000 rpms (batt. voltage approx. 14).

That seems kinda high? What is considered okay to prevent point wear?

This is a stock '70 Malibu with points/original coil and wiring.


Joe

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"Yes, I'm still workin' on those Chevelle radio pages!"

[This message has been edited by Coppertop (edited 06-25-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JJ'65:
In 40+ years driving, points have never let me down. Driven points cars to electronic cars 10:1 miles. Electronic has left me sitting at the side of the road several times. Not averse to progress or change--just my experience. For what it's worth. My $0.02<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Im with you JJ. I would take points over electronic anyday.

If anything is going to let you down, it would be the electronic, not points.

And for everyone that likes electronic, you just haven't gotten stranded yet when the module decides to take a crap leaving you God knows where with your thumb up your...

No offense guys, http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif but better carry a spare module.



------------------
Bob (Pa.)

1963 Impala 283
1966 Chevelle SS 409
1969 Malibu 307
1972 Malibu 307
1969 Chevy stepside 350

Check out my website:
Bobs 409 Chevy Page (http://members.spree.com/entertainment/mr409/bob_s_409_chevy_page_index.html)

Looking for Chevelle or Impala parts? Click here:
Chevelle parts for sale (http://members.spree.com/entertainment/mr409/items4sale.html)

Coppertop, the idle voltage can be as high as you see on your application. Remember that the idle speed lets the coil saturate with more voltage per event than higher rpms do, so as the coil is re-charged, the time it to do so is longer, uses more current, voltage.

As engine rpms increase, time between charging events shortens, and the current, voltage need is reduced as well.

When I look at one of my HEI conversions on the distributor machine, the voltage stays constant at about 14,60 volts, but the amperage draw is up around 4.0 at idle, from coil saturation time. As I rev the distributor machine up, the volts stay same, but the amperage drops to 1.70 at full rpms.

Remember, HEI has no resistor, so voltage will stay same. In a point system, it all comes down to what the coil needs to fill it electrically. I would think you would see a lowering of voltages as rpm increases, to maybe arouond 9.50 to 10 volts or somewhere near there.

Check it out and see if I am correct, it's what I found on point distributors I have messed with over the years.

IgnitionMan: Your information on current draw is really interesting. With a max draw of about 4 amps and a high speed draw of less than 2 amps I become puzzled why GM used such heavy gage wiring to power the HEI's. Is there something different that you are doing with your conversions to make them use less current? I had assumed that if GM was using such a heavy +12 wire that the HEI must really be sucking up the amps. Got any ideas on why they did what they did?

I use stock point caps and rotors, so all my conversions use a remote out-of-cap coil. I recommend oil-filled coils for all applications, and won't use an epoxy coil for my conversions, no matter who says they are better. It has NEVER been proven to me that an epoxy coil has ever been better than an oil filled one.

The stock GM coil in cap coil is epoxy filled, uses more current than an oil filled one, needs bigger load carrying ability as coil gets hot and makes it's own greater internal resistance = bigger wire.

Look at the stock coil in cap HEIs, the module power supply feed wire isn't 10 or 12 guage, only the one going to the unit is, for the coil they use.

I use a 14 guage wire for all my conversions that need a converted or new feed wire, and haven't seen any loss of revs from smaller than GM feed wire size. I also test all my systems before they leave here, with a 16 guage feed wire to both coil and HEI module on my distributor machine/tester, and test to 8,500 rpms, without spark fall-off. I have a see-through thick plastic pressure chamber to view the firing ends of the plugs I built and scope to test system under pressures encountered in the combustion chambers, for accuracy and output.

I have one guy who refuses to change his 20 guage feed wire from them run side of the ignition switch to the coil in his shoebox Nova with very hopped-up 283, and revs his small-body HEI to 7,400 rpms a lot. Scares me, but it works. He has a MSD Blaster II coil and one of my every day driver, performance small HEI setups, spiral core wires, gaps plugs at .045. The feed wire doesn't get any hotter than ones I have felt for large cap HEIs. Strange.

Here's a little electronic theory for everyone...

The ignition coil can be thought basically as an inductor.

If the voltage stays constant across an inductor, but the frequency increases, the current decreases. The frequency has an inverse relationship to the current thru an inductor.

What I-Man says is totally correct and a great real life example of this. As RPMS increase, so does the frequency of the "on/off" of voltage thru the coil. As the frequency increases, naturally the current draw will decrease.

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif


Thanks I-man.

Joe


------------------
"Yes, I'm still workin' on those Chevelle radio pages!"

Ah lykes lektcty, nawh I are wun!!

I had an engine on the dyno several years ago and we compared distributors with HEI to points, coils with epoxy vs Elmers glue vs oil and let me tell you what..... http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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-Mark TC# 717
ACES #1641
1967 Chevelle SS396/375
1964 Chevelle 283/195
1971 Vega 350/400

Actually registered 10/98

Oh...I see you brought your little boy dyno crud over here as well.

Let's not make this personal, there, 1SadRat

Nothing personal, Igman. But it is you who has made it personal by your attitude and name calling. And it is not welcome here on TC. Your posts have been fairly well respected here but you have now lost much of that respect. You had no reason to take the tone you did in the intake/head thread. And your comments on this thread is what TC is NOT about. I only hope, my friend, if you are still my friend, and I hope so, that you will not take this attitude and tone again. I think I can speak for other TC members when I say we don't need that. This is a class site and what you have said is not classy. Call me anything you like, it doesn't bother me. I'll just feel even more sorry for you. But just don't do it to anyone else.

------------------
-Mark TC# 717
ACES #1641
1967 Chevelle SS396/375
1964 Chevelle 283/195
1971 Vega 350/400

Actually registered 10/98

Yes, dear! Just go play with your dyno toy.

Okkkkkkkkkkkkkk.....
Well, I'm not speaking for TC, and not speaking as a moderator for TC. I'm speaking simply as a regular reader of the forums of TC. Please take your little tit for tat fest offline and in the form of emails or whatever. This is certainly not the place.
I am making no judgement towards either party, and not pushing my opinion on either one of you. I simply do not see the need for this inane bickering to go on in the forums. To hash things out between yourselves try other ways please.

Fred

Odd, 1 sadrat, you started the crap with the 'whine, whine, whine' stuff, not me, little kid.

As far as i am concerned, you haven't proven anything, and simply will not just get my respect just given to you, as you have demanded on the other posting, you have to earn that, and I didn't dee you do that.

Sorry to everybody else, but as you all painfully know, when I get fired on for disagreeing and being fully right, I dig in and go directly to guns. Isn't pretty, but one does have to stand firm on the right answer. I do that.

Once again, very sorry to the rest of you. I really shouldn't have responded to 1deadrat's dragging this thing here, but it was him, not me. As far as I am concerned, it's done and over.

This really is not going to be tolerated - Fred made a pretty wise request.

----
edit: Ok, I just seen the other post and that "Dyno, shmino" reply was certainly not necessary and it just fell apart from there. How about respecting some opinions here?

[This message has been edited by Al (edited 06-29-2000).]

I rest my case.

Glad to see the big guy (Al) step in! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

The "whine, whine, whine" bull started it, I don't care anymore, I'm sick and tired of getting bashed when I post a truthful answer, by people like 1badrat, so I just won't post anymore. I know that will make him and his pals happy, and I guess that is all that really matters, making him happy.

End of it.

Ignitionman, I have heard none here that wish for you to stop posting. I for one respect your knowledge and opinion on the topics that come up here, and I'm sure that there are many more that do, and no one wants anyone else to leave. We could just rather do without any offhand remarks towards each other, and it doesn't matter who starts it. We are all here to help and learn from each other, not to argue and call names like children. That is beneath all of us here. The message boards provide a great forum for everyone to show their knowledge about different subjects, and this allows all opinions to be shown and to let the person who asked the question be shown the different opinions and make up their own mind. There is no need for name calling and such, just let your opinion be khown and that's that. A little ribbing of each other is ok, but when it is taken too far, it becomes personal and it is best just left alone. I also realize that Team Chevelle is the class act of the internet, and hate to see members argueing with each other, and I'm sure it bothers Al more than anybody. We should all be thankful that we are allowed to participate here, and that it only takes a few bad turns to destroy it all. Anyways, sorry for rambling on, and I hope to see you to continue to post your thoughts here.

------------------
Justin Earnhart
TC member #657
#'s matching 67 502SS
"Sure, it's just a 396...heh, heh,"

I'm sorry guys, Iman does not post his email address so I must say this.

I at no time bashed or intended to bash your replys. Please go back and read my post on rect/oval. Your "dyno shiymo" bashed mine and started it all. I think you thought I said dynos were the final answer. I did not. Never thought that. The subject matter in my post was not even about dynos. It was about a huge rect port flowing into a smaller oval port. On a high HP engine it does matter. Not on "regular/stock" engines. I've done the swap too! I can't tell a differece either. And maybe the dyno can. I don't know that either. But I don't care. I do know it makes a difference on a 500+ hp engine. Why do people spend $$$ on port matching? If you don't agree, then lets agree to disagree and move on. Please don't leave TC. That would not make me happy or anyone else. The joke http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif, and I did intend it to be a joke, on this thread was to smooth things over. But you took it wrong and I'm sorry if you thought I was bringing our spat over here. I was not. If you want to email me personally that will be ok.

Let's agree to disagree and move on. Nothing wrong with that. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

------------------
-Mark TC# 717
ACES #1641
1967 Chevelle SS396/375
1964 Chevelle 283/195
1971 Vega 350/400

Actually registered 10/98

[This message has been edited by 1BadRat (edited 06-30-2000).]

Sorry, folks, the poster just above here made the last case for me not getting involved anymore. I am just flat sick and tired of getting hammered when I post a truthful answer and get told I am a "whiner' or what ever, I don't need it, and it is now over. Thank 1badrat for the last straw, and the end of me here.

Once again, sorry to everyone else, it is just too much of a load anymore, I have other things to spend my constructive time on and haven't been doing them in favor of here, has to stop, and like I said, weary of the fights when I post what is full-on right.

99 percent of you won't even know I'm gone.

Everyone has their opinion of what is and isn't the best or right method of accomplishing their goals. You feel you are 'full on right', well, others feel the same way about their methods.

If we all did engine building and performance tuning the same, then what's the point of having a race?
It would all be a tie.

We would be sorry to see you leave, but don't blame it on Mark. He is the one with the olive branch.

No one wants to see you leave, Dave. I won't tell you to be more tolerant of different opinions and of people with different ways of doing things, because I don't think it's my place to do so. Plus, I've never met you in person, so who am I to pass any sort of judgement? Your experience has been extremely valuable here, and there's no such thing as having too much experience. Too many opinions, maybe. But experience is priceless.
Remember, about four weeks ago I put out the call to no one other than IgnitionMan on Kevin Barry's post, the one where he's had nothing but holy hell with a Qjet that wouldn't idle right. Kevin had posted three seperate posts with hundreds of replies cumulatively and we had exhausted every possibility. There was a lot of experience in those posts trying to help him figure out why his carb was sucking fuel through the main jets at idle, so who did I call on when we all ran out of answers? That's what mechanics do when we're stumped. We try to tap someone else's brain when we're up against the wall. And when it was time for a fresh perspective on Kevin's problem, you were the first person I thought of.
You have become one of the familiar names on this site. So you and 1badrat had a disagreement. These things happen, even on this site from time to time. I know you've had your disagreements with others in the past and the best example is on the use of Pertronix Ignitors. And the points (no pun intended) you made in your arguments were valid ones, the most valid point being the one about the lack of availability of replacement parts out in the middle of nowhere. Or even in the middle of the big city for that matter. It's true, if the Pertronix burns out, you're stuck until you can get another one in the mail, unless you're lucky enough to have a distributor in the area like myself. Even then, good luck on weekends.
There are two schools of thought used by individuals when building engines. Some guys like to stick with what's worked in the past. That's OK, if it's not broke, don't fix it. Some guys, like myself, like to experiment, sort of like a mad scientist. You made some excellent points in favor of your HEI conversions. On the next 350 I'm wanting to build, I was planning on contacting you about one of your stock looking distributors. Even though I'm running a Pertronix in my engine now and have no complaints, like the mad scientist, I want to experiment a bit on the next engine I build. I'm not kissing arse either, I'm genuinely intruiged by the description of your system, and the widespread availability of replacement parts is a definite plus. So whether a person likes to stick with what's worked or whether they like to experiment in search of something that works a little better, it doesn't really matter because neither way is right or wrong.
People who know me know I'm not saying this to this to you to be an a## kisser and they know I'd never try to sweet talk you or anyone into doing something they didn't want to do. No sir. I try not to say anything to anyone unless I'm sincere. Besides, I don't think you're the kind who would respect a butt kisser. The point I'm trying to make is, I always try to keep an open mind, even when someone tells me something that contradicts a fact I've believed for a long time.
Your opinions are valued here. But there's always going to be those who disagree and those who have had different experiences. That's just the way it is with people. Whatever you decide to do is up to you. If you decide not to post here anymore, that's your decision and I will respect it. I would hate to see it happen, but I will respect it.
I've made this same pitch to several others who said they no longer intended to post here. In those cases they got bashed pretty bad in some posts and got some hateful emails. Basically I just told them to focus on the positive things about TC. With the number of registered users here, there will always be some dissention. So far, they have all continued to frequent this site. I hope you and 1badrat can move on and put this behind you. You're both good guys. Don't ask me how I know, I just know.

[This message has been edited by Randy Mosier (edited 07-02-2000).]

Confounded @#& damn double &*# post!!!! I can't wait for that new computer to arrive.

[This message has been edited by Randy Mosier (edited 07-02-2000).]

I'm sure no one wants to hear it, but never confuse arrogance with knowledge. I'm not going to mourn him.

You know.....I just broke up a fight in the sand box between my 4 and 6 year old. It was a sort of "is so....is not....is so....is not...did so....did not....etc" http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif. Guys, just end it!!!!
Your big grown ups and I don't need another sand box, life is to short.
I hope that we can all get back to playing nice and maybe we can have some cookies and milk later (or beer and pretzels) http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif. Your all 'correct', if you want to discuss the details and subtle aspects of your posts take it off the board.
Man do I feel better!!!!
Thanks for the therapy session.

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------------------
Mark
Team Chevelle #741
"But honey, I bought it because it's "fast, loud and it stinks".
69 chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/69SS_4541.jpg)

[This message has been edited by 69SS_454 (edited 07-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 69SS_454 (edited 07-03-2000).]

Yeah, I just don't get it. But I'm a selfish SOB and don't give a ratsass about ego, I just want to learn.

Takes two to tango for sure. Never one party at fault.

Anyway, Thnx Dave for all the help, assistance and knowlwedge you gave to the site. And all you guys that were terminally embroiled in the pissingmatches with Dave Ray, you all better step up to the plate and fill his shoes. He dished out one helluvalot of help - well worth the trouble IMO.

Of course, not being an ego guy and still learning about auto tech, I never thought Dave Ray was trouble. Touchy. Yes. But maybe that comes from years of slogging through BS to find truth. Suppose you might become intolerant. But who effin cares if its the truth you seek.

IMHO the brouhaha had nothing to do with folks seeking the truth, which is really Randy's point.

Some of you may get your way, and make Dave leave. So I expect you to pick up the slack and help where he left off. Or isn;t your goal to provide the best help we can to fellow members?

Y'all will realize someday that you can be a much better person if you discard your egos.

The three T's if you recall are;
TRUTH
TEMPERANCE
TOLERANCE

And they should guide our activities here at all times.



[This message has been edited by Gene Chas (edited 07-04-2000).]

That's a nice speech, Gene. But to me there's a difference between always being right--and just being convinced you are. A big difference. I can do without the "because I say so" routine. I come here for enjoyment, not to be beat over the head. If you wish to be someone's punching bag, that's your prerogative. I'll pass. As for egos, you got it backwards--we'd all have been better off if he had discarded his.



[This message has been edited by Larry (edited 07-04-2000).]

I don't want to get off topic about I-man, but I have to comment about the amps thing. At low speed HEIs don't draw alot of current because it is regulated by its circuits, and the dwell is variable. At high speed a HEI does run out of time to saturate the coil, but modern multiple coil computer controled cars cand acutally increase the current at high speed.

Thank you Steve!!! And that gentlemen, is the reason this site exists, for the sharing of information and resources to preserve and maintain the Chevrolet Chevelle, Malibu, El Camino, GMC Sprint and the Canadian Beaummont. You didn't get off topic Steve, you actually helped right the ship!!

OKAY,

I think just about everything has been said. This thread is no longer a technical information source, but opinions on disputes.

Let's give it a rest. Let's put opinions aside, and just give out technical information,---and for those seeking it, take in all information carefully as many of the replies are both based on actual experience, and sometimes personal thoughts. Sometimes the two can be hard to differentiate, but please no more "blame game".

If anyone would dispute one of my posts, I'm certainly not going to get enraged, I will simply post diagrams, explanations, etc, whatever it takes. If someone still disputes, and I know for a fact they are incorrect, I will simply let it be knowing in my mind what is correct and not worry about it as a personal attack.

Thank you.

Joe