This is a more a question of moral obligation, rather than legal obligation; I’d like your opinion because this may have happened to you in some form.

In short, here’s the story: I sold my 68 Chevelle and, 24 hours later, the new owner is unsatisfied with the car. He claims there is something wrong with the engine (possibly main bearings) and wants me to pay for the repair. The car was sold as is.

Here are the details: Three weeks ago a man, his wife and son looked at my car. They learned of my car via my web site ad ( www.classiccarlot.com/68Chevelle.html (http://www.classiccarlot.com/68Chevelle.html) ). The ad talks in **great** detail about my Chevelle.

The father and son kick the tires and test drive the car. They like the car but decide to shop around. Three weeks later, the man and wife decide they want the car and I agree to sell it for $11K, which is $750 below my asking price. They pay in cash, sign a bill of sale and drive the car home, which is approximately two hours away. A few hours later I call the new owner to tell him a few things about the car that I had forgotten earlier. In our conversation, I asked how he liked driving the car. He said that it cruised great all the way home. Everyone is happy. The car was purchased for the couple’s son as a surprise, and surprised he was. He sent me an email late that night, promising me that he would take care of the car as well as I had. No mention was made of any mechanical problems.

The very next night I receive a call from the wife of the owner saying that the engine makes a very loud knocking sound and that a friend (a mechanic) guesses that the main bearing has gone (or is going) bad. She asks if I am willing to “stand behind the car” and thinks that I should pay for the repair. She plans to schedule the car to be looked at by a local Chevrolet dealer, who is also her friend, and will get back to me in a few days with a diagnosis.

Now, legally I’m not obligated to do anything. The bill of sale clearly states that the car is “sold as is, with no warranty whatsoever.” Both the new owner and I signed the bill of sale. He has the original; I, the copy. I misrepresented absolutely nothing about the car or its engine. He never checked the oil, crawled underneath the car, etc., before purchasing the vehicle, and went strictly on my word. I had no reason or desire to lie about anything.

My dilemma is that I’m not sure what to do from an ethical point of view.

The vehicle is in show car condition and has won a half-dozen trophies. Mechanically, the engine ran fine and had about 48K miles. When the new owner test drove the car, it ran fine. When he drove away from my house with pink slip in hand, the car ran fine. When he got home, he heard a knocking noise but didn’t mention it when I called later that day about the car. Knowing there was a knocking noise, but assuming it was nothing major, he let his son drive it around town and over to a friend’s house the next day to show it off. The friend asked about the knocking noise and the friend’s father (a mechanic) guessed that it was a bad main bearing. Shortly later, I received the call about paying for the repair.

Let’s assume that the main bearing is bad, and let’s assume that no one drove the car hard. (I never did.) Let’s also assume that chance and nothing else caused this problem to happen on the new owner’s watch instead of mine. What should I do? At very best, I’d consider paying for half the repair assuming that it was only the replacement of the crankshaft bearings and not the crank itself. (What’s a main bearings repair run these days? About $500 for parts and labor? Just a guess...) Because the new owner knew of the problem and continued to drive the car the next day, I suspect the problem may now be possibly worse than it was 24 hours earlier. But who'll ever know for sure?

The cause of this situation may be one were no one is at fault; it may be simply a case of bad luck for the new owner. If so, what do you think my moral obligation is?

This maybe the longest winded post in the history of this site! Sorry about the length. Thanks in advance for your replies.


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Robert

www.classiccarlot.com (http://www.classiccarlot.com) (15% discount for my fellow Chevelle owners!)

[This message has been edited by rstoltz (edited 06-25-99).]

It's a tough call. I sell all my motors" NO
Warrenty" Unless I personally install them.
avarage 2-3 a month and I have a 3 month waiting list for the last 10 years. However
in that time there have been two failers both cam related. I replaced the entire engine in both cases. Reasoning goes like this: You replace an entire engine when you didn't have to your are a hero ( I live in kind of a small town and don't advertise so word of mouth is important). 350s are comparitivly cheap for me to build and you can't put a price tag on good will and honor.
You can be known as honorable man that did the right thing even when he didn't have to
or you can be known as just another money gruber.
Personally in the case you described and your situtation ( running the carlot) I would call his local chev dealer order and pay for a crate 350. Then call the kid and tell him when and where to pick it up. I can almost gaurentee that you will get the price of the crate engine back many times over in one form or another sooner or later and most importantly you will sleep better.
Harley

I know that it's a tough pill to swollow but the "right thing to do", IMHO, is to participate in the cost of repair.

tough call,
hate to hear that a nice car like that has problems.Check out this story.My very first car was a 66 Chevelle.when I bought it I was 16.My dad was standing there and said "don't buy it" there was evidence of severe engine wear,in the form of oil leaks and a pecking noise.I just figured the noise was a common chevy lifter rattle.Being a kid and not knowing any better I bought it anyway.3 days later the rods were flying out the side of block.Needless to say I had run this motor wide open throttle every chance I got for three days.Just because it was too much fun.
I never thought to ask someone else to pay for the motor since I bought it "asis".Like all the other lessons in life, this one was expensive.I can guarentee you that teenager had his Chevelle doing burn outs to show off to his friends.A strong motor can perform this many times before failure though.this really a tough call! I guess it really boils down to how well are you going to sleep at night.I agree with the earlier post that doing the honorable thing will pay off in the long run.Maybe you and this kid can rebuild the motor together,sharing in the cost.this would be a compromise.Sharing our knowledge and time is what we need to do to keep this sport alive and healthy. good luck

If the engine wasn't knocking when you sold it and it was sold "AS IS" I personally don't think you shold feel bad about it.
It sounds to me like it was most likely abused after the fact when you had no control of how the car was being driven.
If it were me I might agree to have him bring it back to me and I would pull the engine out and supply the labor if he supplied the parts and machine work. Or I might agree to pay half of the cost to have new crank and bearings installed.
It is a tough call but if someone buys anything with the "as is" stipulation, it should be just that and they should accept it or pass it buy.

------------------
Dean Call
Overland Park KS
Gold member #3
A.C.E.S. # 00235
N.C.O.A. # 4350

macc.chevelles.net (http://macc.chevelles.net)

Very tough call. Obviously you cared for the car, but things happen. Legally, you owe nothing, but as Harley mentioned, a little goodwill can go a long way. And you might sleep better too. You might consider meeting the purchaser half-way on the repair cost, or split the cost of a new engine and they pay for the install. That way, they have a new warranteed engine and you have made a reasonable and not-legally-required gesture to fix the problem.

Once again, you don't have to do any of this as they test drove the car and purchased it as-is. Who knows, the son may have done some serious high reving out of sight of the parents. The teenage kid next door (16years old) drives his mom's Taurus like Mario Andretti. That thing won't last long.

If I were in your shoes, I'd offer to pay for half the repairs (so they feel it too) up to a certain limit. Then make sure they understand this was not required and you will not participate in any further repairs.

Good Luck.

Last Oct when I drove from Okla City to the Dayton OH area and bought the 70 conv for my wife, I previously ask the guy about the condition of the engine. He said it used a little oil, so just for extra measure, I took 2qts with me. Well by the time I got to Indianapolis the 2qts were gone and I was looking for a Walmart so I could buy a case of oil. It took 8qts to get it home, and the entire time I was trying to come up with a way to get home with it when the engine blew. I bought the car as is and I knew as soon as I gave him the check that it was my responsibility after that.
Well, the conv has a strong SB400 in it now and I sold the original 307/Saginaw 4sp as a unit for $500. as is, I wrote it down that way and he signed it.
If you sold it as is, then it is a tough call. If you agreed to stand behind anything about the car, then stand behind it.

Call me a hardass, but I wouldn't feel obligated to pay for the repair. I do feel obligated to correctly represent the status of any car I sell, service records, collisions, quirks, if any. Then I sell the car AS IS, no warranties implied. Once that car leaves the driveway it is no longer my responsibility in any way. Suppose a tie-rod fell off and the car was totaled, would you feel responsible for the damages and injuries? What if after you fix the motor, the transmission is blown the next day? You've set the precedent that you would fix the car. Now who's honor is in doubt. The kid could swear up and down he never ran it over 5000 rpm. These are the risks of buying used cars, everyone rolls the dice, sometimes you lose.
John Walker

Robert,
Re-read jmw post about 5 times. He really is right. But it is still your call.

------------------

I can tell that you are still attached to the car since you still feel some responsibility for its well being. If it were me, first I would make up my mind that this situation would be settled with a compromise and neither party would lose (always try to look for a win/win solution).
At this point I would offer to help depending on what the damage is, but I would not offer a specific amount or percentage to protect myself from being taken advantage of. You might want to take the car to someone you trust to trouble shoot, estimate the cost of the problem, then make your offer.

Next, get youself unattached from this car. This kid that got the car as a gift, chances are he has no idea of what these cars mean, the upkeep or the effort that you put into making this car what it is, no matter what he promised. There are exceptions to this, some visit this site, but ya-da-ya-da.
but

I'm with JMW here. Call me the devil's advocate or whatever, but you have no clue as to how the car was driven. I mean, who is going to buy a hot rod and not "test it out"?
Let's face it, all of our cars are considered performance cars whether they are stock or not. I feel for your moral obligation and I too would feel badly for the purchaser but I wouldn't allow it to make me pull my wallet out. Just my .02 Bob.

Don't promise anything until you have the facts.
You are taking their word about the guess of one of their friends about what MIGHT be wrong with it. Thats a LOT of "IF"s in my book...All you know is that they have asked you to commit to giving them some money.

It is in the buyers interest to make this an ethical issue. (since ther is not a legal one) It is in their interest to get you to pay them money. Be cautious.

I know I am preaching from the book of CYA but...
If you acted in good faith, why are they contacting you? Why not assume that it was just bad luck and leave you alone? Why are they asking for you to commit to this without knowing the repair costs?
Why did dad let jr take the car out to show it off with an engine knock?
If dad heard a knock and assumed nothing was wrong, then... He also assumed responsibility for whatever the result was.

Would you have bumped the price of the car up if this had happened earlier? (in order to pay for the fix?) I would have just taken that loss as part of the hobby. Why should others be held to a lower standard of responsibility?

If you WANT to do them a favor, offer to buy it back at the same price. Do not pay to have their car fixed. see above posts. They can then legally expect you to fix everything on the car from that point on.
Giving them money will not solve your dillema.
Get the car back, fix it, take it on the chin, and sell it to someone else with a clear mind.

------------------
Robert H. Byers
1969 396ss
rbyers@purdue.edu
Clan Byers Racing
FTY



[This message has been edited by RobB (edited 06-25-99).]

I think it's a very easy decision, and it all boils down to a simple question:

Did you know there was a problem with the engine?

If yes, then you pay.

If no, then you don't.


While this may seem a bit hardline, you need to draw the line someplace. Let's say you do ante up for the bearings. What if they find out the next day that there are some other problems. Are you going to pay for that too? A week later? A month?

It comes down to the fact that you sold the car 'as is', and you disclosed all you knew about it. What happens after that isn't your problem.

Besides, who here really believes that the kid didn't totally lay into it on his first run with the car? c'mon, we all know he did.

Kurt

------------------
The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
A.C.E.S. #1352

Ok being a young guy I know how hard I can be on cars. And to tell you the truth I'm suprised I have never blown the engine in my Chevelle or the old tired 100K plus one in my truck. But in this case thats likely exactly what happened someone abused it. You sold a car you belive was free from defect and its been out of your hands for a time who knows they could have played Dukes a Hazard with it. You should feel no obligation what so ever to fix it. Like you said it was sold as is. When I bought my Chevelle the guy neglected to tell us it had no key that would work in the doors. So there me and my dad are in the motel parking lot during a Nebraska snowstorm with a coat hanger.

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JT
71 SS 350 soon to be Vortec 355 then a 454
www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports (http://www.angelfire.com/co/KellyMotorsports)




[This message has been edited by L6571SS (edited 06-25-99).]

Hi Robert:

You have a true dilemma on your hands. Here's what I might suggest. Decide if you feel that you want to help these buyers. That is a decision you must make. If the answer is no, point out to them that they "assumed risk" by buying the car as is, and further, they heard a knocking and continued to drive the car. It may be cold hearted, but those are the facts.

If you want to help them, get the car to a mechanic YOU trust. Of course their "friends" are going to say the worst about the knocking at this point. After YOUR mechanic has looked at the car, then you can make an informed decision on whether you will kick in $ or not. I would also ask them point-blank if the car was abused since you felt the car was in good shape before they drove it. Their answer may be interesting.

Hope this helps.

------------------
Morris "moepoe" Porter

Aces 2674
'70 L34 Chevelle SS396

Well Robert, your problem has certianly generated alot of opinions so here is my .02

If my dad had bought me that car when I was a teenager and even now (33) I would have run it wide open as long as physically possible. That is probably too much car for any kid to handle unless he built it from scratch with his McDonalds paychecks.

But,11K is a heavy chunk of dough and one probably would expect a strong motor for that price. I would be inclined to split the cost of the repair, only after talking to the mechanic who pulled the crank out, if he felt the motor was revved to 7000 rpm etc I wouldn't feel so bad for the kid.
I personally would have never in a million years have called you expecting any money.

Frank

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I don't think you should have to pay. When you had the car you had never noticed any problem with the engine, correct? I think it sucks for the guy who bought the car but, I think someone drove the hell out of the car.
It just seems that for it to get that bad so quick, someone was running the hell out of it.

"AS IS"

Here's my harsh reality $.02...
This spoiled brat of a kid gets a "gift" of a $11k classic Chevelle, mommy & daddy let him take it out, he beats the *****out of it to show off to his buddies with no responsibility, respect and complete disregard of the consequences, because mommy and daddy will most likely pay for whatever happens to it. He does something to the engine because he probably has no clue on how to drive it right anyway (ie. redlines the hec out of it and spins a bearing or whatever!) and his mommy calls you and wants you to help pay for the repairs!!? Bull&^%$!
Tell the spoiled brat to take some responsibility for his actions for once in his life and save those McDonald's paychecks and maybe he'll learn to treat things with respect!
Excuse my negativity, but I see way too many kids getting life handed to them on a silver platter lately.
I along with probably some of you had to scrimp and scrape for our toys and thus we treat them like gold...sure we'll beat on em every now and then but we don't turn to mommy and daddy when our toys break or start making the innocent seller feel guilty about it! We swear, *****& moan and get out the wrenches.
ok, I'll get off my box now.

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Bob
Email: bob70@chevelles.com
My Chevelle: members.aol.com/rdcnh/70index.html (http://members.aol.com/rdcnh/70index.html)
Team Chevelle Gold Member #169
New England Chevelle & El Camino Assoc. #085

I agree with JMW and Byfield. I can tell by your write-up and concern that you were not aware of any problems with the engine.

This may not be a factor but why did the wife call vs the husband??? My gut tells me he knows you are not responsible but the wife doesn't want to eat the cost, besides it doesn't hurt them to ask now does it??? What the heck, they may get a free engine!!!
I also question if they really heard a knocking sound on their ride home. I think he would have mentioned it during your follow-up call and why did he let the son task it. Wouldn't you have mentioned it ???

You have no way to know how the car was driven in the 24 hours. I believe the son had some fun...

The car was sold "as is". They could have had it checked out by a professional. Tell them you are sorry something has gone wrong with the engine but you will not pay for it.
Besides, could be as simple as a bent push rod.

This discussion is another good reason to never sell a car to a friend or relative.

Bill

If you acted in good faith, "as is" means "as is". Will you also be expected to pay for the rubber ripped of the tires? As is means that, not as it may be in the future.
kevin d

Bob70 pretty much summed it up for me too. I'm only 20, but I have spent every damn cent on my Chevelle out of my own pockets. It ain't easy when you're a college student. I hate to assume that the kid beat on the car, but I have seen it all the time with very few exceptions. Back in high school, there was this kid who lived in the rich part of Milwaukee whose daddy bought him the most beautiful 1969 LeMans I've seen. It was a frame-off, beautiful red lacquer, black buckets, 350, matching-number-everything. He used to come down to the city to race people -- it was pretty pathetic since I could dust him no problem in my Caprice (305-4bbl at the time). Since he couldn't do burnouts in the thing, he would throw it in reverse and floor it. Wow..cool. We'd always tell him to go home, but he couldn't resist those reverse-gear burnouts. Seeing someone abuse such a beautiful car like that makes my blood boil. Anyway, every time I'd see the car it would have a new ding in the paint, and eventually the door panels were hacked up for some speakers (didn't we learn anything from the seventies?). Grrr. So...I guess I would tell this family to take a walk. That's it. Hey, another interesting addition to the story....I bought some rally wheels off a guy a few years ago. He tells me he has a Chevelle he bought new -- an LS5 car -- and he tells me he's selling it. I asked if he had a buyer yet, and he says that some kid in Bcookfield wants it. Uh-oh. A few more questions and I knew it was the same guy who abused that LeMans. To make a long story short, I persuaded him to sell it to one of my friends who treasured the car. And what a beautiful original car it is. So I saved a Chevelle from destruction. And if I was RStoltz, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Hopefully the motor troubles will encourage the parents to get rid of the car. That happens pretty frequently too. Hope he ends up with a Civic.

70L34: just a guess, but the kid's from Whitefish Bay, right http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

Kurt

------------------
The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html)
Email: Kbyfield@terracom.net
A.C.E.S. #1352

well Robert i think you have already made up your mind.either way you go i don't think "YOU" lose.everybody has made a good point.but seriously,where do you draw the line.regardless if the kid ruined it or not it was sold as is and agreed to by three adults.remember they drove it two hours to get home.maybe the reason the dad didn't call is because he burned it up on the way home.

:elc66

I bought a Lemans Sport from a fellow knowing that it was wounded. The price was right also. One rotor and both rear drums were metal on metal and chewed to death and the engine had a broken piston. Guess who drove the car. It was his son. Don't ever give a kid a 400+ cubic inch engined car or you will probably have similar results. Let him buy his own and he will look after it. If I buy as is then that's the way it is. I think these people have a lot of nerve. 48K engines just don't die without a reason.

Hey guys, thanks for all the replies. I need to clarify a couple of things though.

Some people emailing me privately think that I run a carlot and that the car in question was one of many on the lot. What I have is a web page design service where I create web page advertisements for private parties around the country selling their cars. The car is question was my own vehicle. Paying for and installing a 350 crate engine in order to keep the integrity of my "carlot" is not going to happen because the true quality of the cars (other than my own) is nothing I can control. The integrity of my "carlot" lies in the quality of the web page ads I create and the advertising I provide. My making the repairs needed to the car is not a happening thing. Who knows if more damage was caused to the car since it left here. I don't need to open a can of worms!

Rob B made a couple of valid points. He wrote: "Why did dad let jr take the car out to show it off with an engine knock? If dad heard a knock and assumed nothing was wrong, then... He also assumed responsibility for whatever the result was." "Do not pay to have their car fixed. see above posts. They can then legally expect you to fix everything on the car from that point on. Giving them money will not solve your dilemma." Those are arguments that I hadn't clearly thought through. Thanks.

If I buy back the car to repair it and sell it again, my wife will murder me in a very slow, painful manner. I'm not up for that.

If I were the new owner, I think I'd just bite the bullet and tackle the repair solo. I been in that position before. If the something went bad in the engine and it happened to the new owner instead of happening to me a day or two earlier, is that my fault? I'm inclined to think not. I have no way of causing things to break on demand. If two people are standing on a mountain and lightning strikes one and not the other, there is no one to blame. One guy got lucky and one did not. It's called life and sometimes it sucks. I don't think I can place blame on the new owner anymore than he can place blame on me, knowing that there was no knocking sound when he took possession of the car.

After reading everyone's responses, I still have to give the dilemma some thought. The humanitarian side of me says to help out these new owners by paying for part of a repair (within reason). The cautious side of me says to let them be so that I don't set the stage to be expected to repair anything else down the road. The shrewd businesman inside of me says, "Buyer beware." (Gee, three different personalities. Just call me Cybil.)

I just wanted to check in and say thanks to everyone for taking time to reply. I'll post an update when the problem is "solved."

------------------
Robert

www.classiccarlot.com (http://www.classiccarlot.com) (15% discount for my fellow Chevelle owners!)


[This message has been edited by rstoltz (edited 06-25-99).]

Real world situation for me. I sold a car, it had some problems the next day so I got it back. It was a father/son deal just like this and I felt obligated. Well, after fixing a pile of bent pushrods my buddies ask what I was doing in the next town racing everyone in sight! Kid and his dad swore up and down they just 'drove it to a friends'. BIG lesson learned for me.
The last car I sold, I very specifically told the guy to check out anything he wanted to but when the signal light came on leaving my place, it was his.

Easy answer ; what would you expect someone else to do if it happened the other way ?? DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. I bet you would expect some kind of $$$$ help.I suggest some good will $$.

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Gotta have a Chevy !

What would I expect from someone else? Probably nothing. You can tell if someone is lying if you talk to them long enough and you can examine the car to see if they are lying about it. I wouldn't buy a car from someone I didn't trust and I wouldn't buy a car that didn't check out okay. If the engine messed up on the way home, but I trusted the seller, how could I honestly go back to them and tell them they lied and that they owe me some money. If they didn't lie, then I have no business asking for $$. If they did lie, maybe I am to blame in part because I didn't check out the thoroughly enough.

I'm a firm believer in sticking to the "as is" agreement. They had a chance to check the car out, and if they weren't mechanically inclined, could have taken it to a mechanic to have it inspected (I would have for that kind of money). I was a teenager once myself (long time ago) and know how much fun it was with a new car and showing it off (still do). I'd say "you bought it" and let it go. I guess that's the reason I have a policy of not selling cars to friends or relatives - the obligation seems to last forever.

I'm with Bill T SS70 here, why DID the wife call and not the husband?! My money is on the father knowing that the first thing the kid did with the car is light up the tires. Hey I tried doing it my first day driving with a 4cyl Muskrat II. I say "as is" is exactly that...AS IS! Where was this knocking during the test drives? Were you present(in the car) when they "test drove" the car? Once she was out of your sight, and a pink slip with her, she is no longer yours. Any and all obligation are on the new owners. The car is over 30 years old and they handed it to a kid half the car's age. What did they expect? Just fodder for thought.

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Fred
Madness takes it's toll, please have exact change.
'70 Chevelle
www.geocities.com/motorcity/shop/9385/1970Chevelle.html (http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/shop/9385/1970Chevelle.html)

I'm with the "As is" folks on this one. I've sold many cars over the years and always held up that attitude. I can see why you feel somewhat the way you do about it though.

I was tending to agree with someone who posted about buying it back for what it was sold for, but then Al's post woke me up.

Be strong, let it go, and don't feel obligated to do or pay for anything



------------------
70 & 1/2 RS Camaro
SB406 & M20 4spd
70 Malibu
SB350 & TH400

rstoltz, I read through all the post, wow this baby caused a stir.

I guess I lean toward the as is deal.

These cars are like the race motors I used to build, how much warranty do you think you get with a pure race application? Baring total stupidity on the part of the builder, how would you warranty something like this?

These cars have parts in them that could be 34 years old. Man by any stretch of the imagination that is way beyond normal life expectancy.

You never mentioned what motor was in the car, but judging by the price, the car must have been super nice or one of the big block cars or both. Some gift for a young kid!

I agree with you, if the father let him drive the car with a noise coming from the bottom end, he sealed his fate right there for me, actually he owed it the nano second it crossed the threshold of my driveway and eased out on that public street.

Here is the short version, tell them to pound sand!!!

Wally
Gold #67

AS IS IS AS IS.

How about this?

I was "thinking" about buying your car, but didn't. The car I bought instead took a dump a week later. So I think you should fix mine too! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

If you won't buy that, then "AS IS"!

Oh, I didn't look at your car.

>>>Rod<<<

The Kid did it!! Keep the cash!!

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Nick P.
Team Chevelle Gold #36

Okay, I read all these replies and I just gotta add my .02.

It sounds like you really loved that car and probably didn't really want to let it go. So why would you sell it, knowing it was going to a 16 year old kid?!? He has no idea what he has or what it means, or how much time, effort and love you put into it. Somebody said it perfectly...let the kid learn the ways of the real world! If he wants to play, he's gotta pay.

I recently heard a car racing around my neighborhood...sounded like a strong runner. After listening to this moron tear up tires going around corners for a few minutes, I suddenly heard a loud crash. When I checked it out, here was a kid in (what had been) a beautiful '69 Camaro, which now had it's front end wrapped around a tree. All of seven kids piled out of that car, laughing!! (Made me want to puke) Later found out daddy and mommy had bought it for him too. He had no respect for that car at all, and the next week I saw him driving a brand new Camaro, also given to him by mommy and daddy. He sold the '69 for parts.

My gut tells me your situation is similar, and I say let mommy and daddy take care of it. It ain't your problem no more!

sorry 'bout the double post

[This message has been edited by DaDon (edited 06-28-99).]

I think I'm on the verge of puking after DaDon's story too. I'm glad I wasn't there at the time; me and the crew would stop the laughing real quick. Hey Kurt, the kid was from Brookfield, but Brookfield-Whitefish Bay-Mequon-River Hills -- same difference! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Hey, did I tell ya about the guy from Brookfield I went to school with -- his dad made BIG bucks as an advertising exec or something. Anyway, the dad owned a real 427 Cobra and was a real cool guy. Unfortunately, he made the mistake of buying his nimrod son a 1970 428 Mach 1 on his 16th birthday. 1 week later, I got a call from the kid (let's call him MARK) asking me if I could fix bent valves. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Well, at least it was a Ford. I didn't help him -- I guess Daddy's wallet bailed him out. If I sound bitter, I am. It's guys like that that give guys my age a bad name.

You already dropped your price $750-which will help pay for the repair. I am sure this kid beat the hell out of the car, therefore it is his problem, not yours. Besides, what are the chances of the bearings going 24 hours after you sold it without any problems? Only a fool would pay this kid for wrecking his car.

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Dave

Well since we were all kids once, I'll bet 5 bucks that the kid took toe car over too his buddies house went for a cruise saw some chicks said hey come look at my bitchen new car lit the fuse dropped the hammer layed a nice smokie burn out oversped the motor and went crying home too mom and dad, all I can say pal I gave you the stop lite guarentee. once you left the stop lite it was all yours have a nice day. End of story I woul just put the money in my pocket and walk away.If you buy a car from a dealer AS IS oh well have a nice day. been burned by these things before. Hope it all works out for you Gene.....

I am sick of hearing about spoiled kids and their "gift" of a car. Nobody gave me a car when it was my turn. Heck I had to fight just to get my license(my stepfather had to wait until he was 18 to get his license so I had to). I got my license anyway, and bought myself an old truck. I still have that truck, currently fixing it up to relive old glory. I love that thing and will never sell it.

When I have kids that are old enough to drive. I am going to make them earn whatever they get. Most kids get into accidents, its a fact. Let them pay their dues in something expendable, not a $11,000 show car.

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David Nafarrete
1965 406 6speed
(almost on the road again)

Well I have to throw in another .02. There have been some really good points brought up in this discussion. I have to agree with Byfield, If you knew of a problem and sold the car saying it was OK then you should help in a some way. But the reality is that I wouldn't trust a teenager with a classic for any reason.

The 16 year old next door was bugging the S--- out of me yesterday while I was bonding with my 69 Chevelle and all he does is whine about not having money and constantly brags about how he red-lines any car he can get his hands on. He has had a free ride and doesn't appreciate anything. I have a feeling the kid in this situation falls into this category. Sold as-is applies here.

About 7 years ago I flew from Cleveland to Houston to pick up a 67 Chevy Impala to bring back to Cleveland for my brother. It was a nice car. The seller set up an appointment to have me inspect the car at a local gas station and if the car looked good, I was going to leave a check and drive it home. I checked it out throughly, I pulled plugs, checked fluids, checked for oil burning and everything else I could test. Everything looked good and the car ran beautifully. So off I went to Ohio. Two hours into the mission, the oil light comes on. It was two quarts + low. I refilled and continued. Long story short; it took 43 Quarts of oil to get back to Ohio. No joke, I saved all the old oil cans for my brother. This car barely smoked on the road and did not smoke at all during my tests. And it had plenty of power. He must have filled up the crank case with straight STP for the inspection. As it ends up, the previous owner knew of these problems and felt bad in the end that he let me head out on a 1500 mile journey with this problem. My brother ended up splitting the cost of the rebuild due to many factors, but both parties ended up happy.

So there's my additional two cents, I hope it helps you decide what to do. If you don't help with the repairs, these buyers will learn a lesson about classics, buying used cars and maybe a little about their son. If you do help, be cautious.

Good Luck.

I think that everyone here has made very good points. AS IS is AS IS. Any 16 year old should get a 1982 Honda Civic and nothing more. The kid did it and dad knew it. Collect all the 2 cents that everyone put here and you have a new engine! It's a shame and it's too bad that a beautiful car got screwed up, but hopefully someone else down the road will get it, love it and respect it.

Some of you have asked why in the world I sold the car to a 16-year-old kid. Technically, the car was sold to his father. The father and mother both said that if their son got so much as one speeding ticket, it was bye-bye car. And I believe that were sincere about that claim. That made a good impression on me.

In all, about eight people looked at the car before I sold it. (Almost all of them were 25 to 35 years in age.) I wouldn't let a couple of the potential buyers even test drive the car because I simply didn't trust them. One guy offered me almost my full asking price but I turned him down because I suspected he immediately screw up the car. (Of course, I didn’t say that to his face; I told him I’d consider his offer and get back to him.)

In short, I trusted the kid and his parents more than any other people who came to look at the car. I even took a $750 cut in price to sell it to them, because $11K was their top offer. Having the car in good hands meant more to me than having an additional $750. It is ironic that the car now most likely needs repairs of some kind. Had I knowingly sold it to some hot rod jerk, I surely wouldn’t even entertain the idea of listening to his problems.

But I am leaning toward “as is” means “as is.” The car was fine when it left my house. And I was as honest about the car as I could possibly be. I hid nothing; in fact, I pointed out the car’s flaws before any money changed hands. What more should anyone expect from a seller?

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Robert

www.classiccarlot.com (http://www.classiccarlot.com) (15% discount for my fellow Chevelle owners!)

My opinion is this kid didn't even know what he had and was rodding it.
I sold a 72 Chevelle years ago to a what I thought was a responsible kid. A mint car, better than mint. 2 days later he calls, somethings wrong with the sound system, (he had blown the speakers). Within a week he calls, it doesn't shift right, (he had torn up the 3rd gear syns}. The last time I seen the car, 2 weeks later it was wrapped around a power pole. Amazing nobody got killed. Do I thing you are morally obligated?...........NO WAY!!
Besides AS IS means AS IS.

Sorry about your car tho.

rstoltz, to reiterate what almost everyone else said, as is means as is.. the circumstances *might* be different if this was some daily driver beater that blew up 10 miles down the road but I looked at the engine compartment and it doesnt even look like it has ever been started. if you spent that kind of time and money on a car and it was knocking while in your posession you wouldnt have thought twice about yanking the motor to fix the problem, and make it perfect.

considering the circumstances, the *only* thing I would do is offer to buy the car back at a pro-rated price!! and fix whatever is wrong with it and sell it to a new, worthy, buyer.

spun bearings, rod knock, etc are CLASSIC signs of over revving an engine.. to think that this kid and even his father didnt push this car hard after it was out of site is foolish. Dont give them a cent!

Mike
Gold #34

Robert,
You have 45 replies to your question, 46 now, and probably more to come. If these people have an email address get it and fire this off to them. If not, print it out and present it to them and show them how most people feel. The more I read the replies, the more I lean to a firm "AS IS" transaction. I bought and still drive my first car to work everyday, a 51 Chev I bought from my Grandad just before I went to Nam. It was a plain jane car but it was all I could afford, and literally not knowing if I would come back alive, I didn't want to invest in a nice car. Well, when I got out of the Army and started college I could not afford a better car and I remember the guys going to college with a fine car Mom and Dad bought and their free ride through college. Nothing has changed. Those kids tore up nice free cars and the kids in my neighborhood still do it. If you honestly represented the car and they agreed, too bad, so sad! The only reason I don't say anything to the dumbass parents on my street is because I will catch hell from my wife, and I have to live with her.

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As is, simply put. How do you no they didnt over rev the motor. If they were looking for warranty they should of purchased a car with a warranty. I would offer to by back the car sale price less damages. I wouldnt even loose sleep on it except for the fact they're abusing a nice piece of iron. If you ask me there in over there head buying a car like this for there son. You dont just drive early iron like a 78 caprice. A car like yours requires care and maintenance whenyou let the ponys out. If it wasn't this bearing situation you would probably get calls on things like broken window crank arm, leaking valve cover gasket, things they can't fix or even attempt too. Sounds like the chevelle will always be an expense for these people because a shop has to fix every little thing. The way I see it, consider it a lesson learned for these people buying a car they really shouldn't have purchased. Maybe you'll get your car back for 9,000 and its a loose flex plate bolt or something simple. He He He....

AS IS. Dad or the kid hammered the car. If you pay anything they will be back. The old man knows whats going on, mom's just trying to get you to pay for it. I always emphasis to the buyer what As Is means to me before I take their money. Don't loose any sleep over it.

you sold it in good faith, giving them all the details of the car. all i can say is id tell them out of the question, no way would i give them any money. let the kid learn

Anyone who hasn't already, click on the URL Robert gives in his originating message. The pictures and description of the car give an additional dimension to this episode. The car is beautiful!

This is a great jounalism---the intersection of the story of a great car with a morality play.

I endorse what Dzauto said. Do your best to assure the buyers have an opportunity to read all the responses recorded above.

It's unlikely the whole truth will ever be known; however, I'd bet the damage is the result of misuse by the buyer.

There are lots of facets to this issue, including some very personal ones, and in the end only Robert can evaluate them. However, if it were me, I'd give the buyer the choice of either accepting the fact that he bought the car as is or I would agree to give his money back and take the car back. I bet you can sell the car again for your selling cost plus the cost of repair, especially considering all the free publicity youv'e got from this debate.

Great story!
Larrym

For 11K it ought to be a 454 SS convt all original and run like new.

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Mike

Just like many other things in this world-somebody is passing the buck. "It's not my fault" has infected this nation all the way to the presidency. It sounds to me as it does some others that this spoiled unappreciative teenager rodded his beautiful new '68 into its first problem. If this kid keeps the car-which he will because the parents have him spoiled as hell to begin with and they're too pathetic to suck it up and deal with the problems they have made for themselves, then the car will turn into a pile far less valuable than the beautiful piece of machinery it was. I'm so sick of hearing about people like this I could scream . TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN DAMN SELF!!!!

Robert -

I think its pretty clear from the feedback so far that you shouldn't sweat this. You already know that legally you have no obligation. Morally, you should not lose any sleep over this unless you had some idea that there were problems with the motor, which doesn't sound like the case. These people test drove it and had no problems. They drove it home and had no problems. They didn't even bother to call you right away when they started hearing noises.

You have no idea what these people did in the next couple days after they bought the car. Maybe the kid beat it, maybe the old man beat it, maybe nobody beat it. It ran fine before and after they bought it. Absolutely do not offer to take the car back or pay for any repairs. You will not be a ******by doing so, and should not feel bad in the least bit. Be diplomatic about it with these people, but be firm. The fact that you feel bad shows that you have some decency, but don't pay for someone else's abuse or misfortune as a result. As indicated in other posts, where does one draw the line? Again, if it was something that was broken when you sold it, I'd say you should feel compelled to make it right. Good luck!

PS to Mike: If you're lucky, $11K will get you a basketcase SS454 convertible with the wrong motor that needs a complete restoration.

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Rainer - Team Chevelle #50 - Gold Member
'68 SS396
'70 LS3 400 Malibu
& the newest - '70 Malibu convertible!
rseitz@chevelles.com

Many years ago I bought a 58 ford for an outragus price of $15.00 . It turns out it had a LOUD rod knock. I drove that car for 3 years & finly junked it just in pity of the neighbors. it is possable to baby a car & have it last. How many times have we seen a grandmas car that has never seen 2600 rpm in it life given to a teen who now has never seen under 6000. Good buy rings.

He wont get a dime from me.