Here is a little survey for you Chevelle guys. If you were to build a Chevelle from ground up, would it be a 4 speed or an automatic and why? I am faced with this predicament and am trying to weigh the pros and cons (i.e. cost, availability of parts, fun factor, etc.) Just curious as to what you guys think. Thanks in advance.

For "fun" factor, the 4 speed can't be beat. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif For simplicity and consistancy, the auto can't be beat. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

I have both and enjoy both for different reasons. But for all around use I prefer the Auto.

Autos are much easier on parts and less expensive to maintain. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif IMHO.


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Mr. D
72 454 El Camino
68 RS/SS Camaro
73 RS/LT/Z28 Camaro
99 Firebird TA WS-6 A4

First of all, as everyone now knows, federal law has mandated that ALL performance vehicles, such as early Chevelles, be equiped or retrofitted with a manual transmission, "similar to a Muncie, Super T-10 or equivelent".

In addition to the above, my cars have 4 or 5 speeds for several reasons. First, I have never learned to drive a car with an automatic, I just can't seem to get that coordination right.
I like the total torque control that a 4sp provides, when I put the tranny a particular gear, I want it in that gear until I am ready to select another gear. I don't like for a transmission to shift, up or down, when it decides to shift. If I want to lug it around at 15mph in 4th gear, that's where I want it. If I want to start out on the ice or snow in 2nd gear, that's where I want it. If the engine is still cold and sluggish when the traffic light turns green and it needs to be throttled a little to make it go, I like to be able to feather the clutch, rather than have it cough and choke and die, then slip it in neutral (or like some dummies, stop, put it into park and restart it). If I want to slip it into or out of gear, when the car is parked, without going to find the key, I can. If I want to roll down hill or push the car because the battery is dead and then pop the clutch to start the engine, I can. If I am trying to get the timing mark to an EXACT location, I can put the tranny in 4th gear and rock the car gently until the crank moves to EXACTLY where I want it (try that one with an automatic, you almost never can bump the starter and get the timing mark just right).

AND, there ain't NOTHING like hammering 2nd gear at 6000-7000rpm!

Otherwise, I guess I can't come with any good reasons for having a 4sp.


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Tom Parsons

I have never heard of the law you mentioned... I have a TH350 with a shift kit (no decent converter, though http://www.chevelles.com/forum/frown.gif). It's great on the street, and consistent on the strip. But for fun you can never beat an M22.

Well, I prefer the 4 speed for just plain FUN. An automatic is the most pleasant to drive but if you are going for performance then you need to figure what converter you need. Also the automatics benefit from a trans cooler so factor that in with respect to price and locating a cooler.

You asked for opinions and that is mine.

Dan


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Central Illinois
69 Cortez silver SS 427
69 azure turquois Malibu 250
ACES #02351
Team Chevelle Gold #35

4 speed. I don't care what anyone sez, four speeds are faster unless your using a powerglide with a 6000 stall converter. Even nhra stick shift stockers are faster than the auto stocker and those guys use crap like titanium clutch hubs with 6 inch diameter stall converters and trans brakes. Jesus, the jerico 4 speeds stockers use are easier to drive than normal stock four speeds.

I dont think you can say a 4speed is faster, you cant shift faster than an automatic. And with the right converter, shift kit and shifter, hitting second at 6500 is no problem, I do it all the time..only difference is I can keep my foot to the floor with no worry of scattering the engine. I dont see many people power shift like that with a 4speed without sweating or wondering which shift will blow the trans. Lastly, another great advantage of the auto with converter is torque multiplication. No room to get into major math, but most 4 speed cars need a steep rear gear to equal what an auto can do with a milder gear and good converter...I like 4 speeds for driving around and cruising but not for everyday fun. I can shift my auto like a 4 speed or just leave it in drive, best of both worlds!

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70 chevelle ss396 conv
66 chevelle ss396 hdp/conv
55 chevy prostreet

I would go with the stick but I would definetly spend the extra and go for a 5 speed with some high gears. That way you will have the best of both worlds with out of the hole pull and great top end cruising.

Manual Labor is the only way to go!

Nothing like rowing the gears to get your blood flowing!

Jake

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Black 66 SS396 www.chevelles.com/feature/september99.html (http://www.chevelles.com/feature/september99.html)
Tubby's Drive In
members.xoom.com/Pgh_Knights/ (http://members.xoom.com/Pgh_Knights/)
Pittsburgh PA

DZ For President ...if he is going to get laws like that passed !!! Nothing like pulling the lever on a slick shifted Muncie. You automatic guys dont know what you are missing http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

1971 Heavy Chevy - original owner
Team Chevelle #100

I heard that law called the DZ transmission act of 2000 is going to lead to new driver's license road tests where a manual transmission is required to be used! If you can't shift you can't drive. When Drptop70ss says you can't shift like an automatic (not lifting your right foot from being firmly planted into the carpet on the shift) without worrying about scattering your engine or tranny he isn't speaking for everybody. I have a bad habit I'm trying to break, it's power shifting 1-2 EVERY time I get next to someone who wants to stop light drag. I got so used to doing it when I was younger, that I really have a tough time not doing it now. I know that my 402 can not take the rpms and the crank can not take the shock that my old LT1 could! As someone else refered to, there's nothing like the look on face of the driver of the car next to you when you bust loose a big patch of rubber, do a little fishtail, and lurch ahead at 45 mph! I know that an automatic is much easier on the drive train and car in general, but if you can't understand the love of a 4speed or how they can be shifted DARN CLOSE to as fast as an automatic, you need to have someone take you on a clutch dumping, shift banging, wake up the neighbors hell ride! If you lived anywhere near me I'd be happy to show you what I'm talking about. Hey Tom Parsons, why don't you change your user name to DZMANUAL?

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Steve

72 Chevelle SS402/4sp

Well I think 4 speeds are cool <in a Honda or Toyota> but when you have 300+ HP under the hood why bother .. nothin like barkin 2nd gear in a auto trans and haveing the near 0 maintanance of a auto trans

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John
Catapiller Mechanic
Salinas,Ca
70SS 454 Clone {in construction}

well my chevelle is the first AUTO i have ever owned as my driver ( my wife has a town car butnshe drives that)

i definitely compromised when i settled for an auto..but the rest of the car was so overwhelming i simply had no choice...someday ($$$) a 5 or 6 speed would sure do her justice!!

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Rich
Cocoa Beach, Fla
Team Chevelle #380
wa3men@aol.com
www.chevelles.com/showroom/70_SS_454.jpg (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/70_SS_454.jpg)

Sorry for the repost but I wanted to mention that I used a V-gate inline 4 speed shifter when i was seriously into racing and I NEVER missed a gear!!! But i did waste two transmisions and one rear end!!!
4 speeds are a blast, but autos are allaround tough!! http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

I think DZAUTO hit it on the head. Go with the manual tranny! I like to be able to rev it up and then upshift, save you brakes and down shift to slow down. Best of all rev it up at a light and POP the clutch, blow away all the rice burners!

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Coolest car at school!

65 Malibu, 4 speed, 350, 12" JBL woofer, sony deck, JL mids

Thanks for the great responses. The arguments regarding each gearbox are strong on both sides. The project at hand is a long way from completion, so I've got plenty of time to decide. So far though, I'm leaning more toward the 'stir it yourself' side. The big block backed by a 4 speed sounds like unlimited fun. Thanks again.

We went with a stick AFTER we had decided months previously that we were gonna go auto. It's just fun, that's all. We'll probably trash the trans next summer at the drags, or maybe the rear, dunno, but it'll be FUN!

SSteve L, I'll take you up on that offer. Can we meet halfway between WI and IN? I need someone to show me a good power shift. Heck, I need someone to show me good shift technique. Never had a performance car with a 4spd and the time to learn is NOW.

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Tom H.
Member #259
Indianapolis,IN www.iquest.net/~bharold/chevelle/ (http://www.iquest.net/~bharold/chevelle/)

DEFINITELY MANUAL - 4 speed for fun, 5 speed is better if you have the $$

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Gotta have a Chevy !In Durham N.C.
Make it look the way you like it, forget what the other guys say!

Yeah DZ!!!! ALL performance cars SHOULD have manual transmissions. If all I wanted to do when I drive my cars is just sit there and let the car do everything I would just drive my wifes Corsica. Is nt the idea of the older cars is to have fun with them? Why bother if the fun factor isnt there?
By the way, Yes you can shift a manual as fast as an auto with practice. And you can launch them also, the key is PRACTICE. When I was younger and did a lot of racing everyone called me "HOLESHOT" because I did practice.
All of MY cars have manuals, 70 Chevelle SS396 4 speed, 66 Nova SS 4 speed and 95 Z28 Convertible 6 Speed

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70 Chevelle SS396 soon to be ZZ502, 66 Nova SS, 95 Z28 Convertible. Aces 3081, TC #54 Gold

alrighty, if automatics are so much faster shifting than manuals why did the nhra pro stockers ditch the lencos? How did Billy glidden open a can of whip ass in super street against nick scavo and the other racers with a smaller engine, no fuel injection and a plate nitrous system( fuel injection guys get to use a fogger type system)? Like a racer once said "if it ain't got a clutch you ain't racin".

If you're going to do any amount of racing go with the automatic. You'll have the consistency neccesary for brackets and you'll go easier on the driveline parts.

If you're building a car for show and go, there's only one way to go. STICK IT. This is mandatory with RATS. Frankly, the mouse likes the extra torque multiplication of the auto, the rat don't need it or care.

So I'd go with either a manual T350/400 or manual of your choice. For stock 4 speed stuff The ST10 with a 2.88 1st, 1.90 2nd. The M20 and ST10 have much better gearing for acceleration, than the M21/22. Whine Schmine.

And I can also confirm the too cool feeling of boardshifting 2nd at 6500 and feeling your front end trying to go AIRBORNE!!

All my Chevy's in the 70's were 4 speeds, didn't get another till 1990 when I bought my Chevelle. After the engine and trans overhaul I babied it for the break in period and then let her rip. I guess it is like riding a bicycle, started slamming gears and never broke it once in 9 years. My wife asked me once why I chirped the tires when I shift I simply said "cause I can". I have 2 autos sitting here, but will buy a Muncie to put in the 64. One day at work Jayne drove up in the Malibu and as she was leaving one guy commented that she probably can't shift that thing, well he ate those words as she drove off shifting gears faster than some of them could. Go manual and less people will be able to drive your car also.

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Philip Valentine
Lakeside, AZ
Member #42 GOLD
"Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another."
philip@chevelles.com

the first stick i drove was last year when my parents had me drive my brothers truck they repoed from him. it was a ford with a five speed. I used to swear by automatics until i went through 2 in my 70 chevelle with a 370 horse 350. one was a rebuilt th350 with shift kit that lasted about 3 months. number 2 was a th400 i got used for 150 bucks have hammered it as hard as the 350 for 2 months and it still works,but i miss driving the 5 speed in the ford. automatics are boring.And they go out when you dont want them to. Go with the stick. I regret buying this chevelle because it doesnt have a stick and i cant afford a stick setup. Old chevy iron isnt complete without a 4 speed. Anybody have a complete 4 speed setup for cheap. ill give ya my th400.

Well its gotta be a 4spd why because i like'em
and the 2nd reason is my wife can't drive one so that means she's not driven my car http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Tom
Belleville, IL
67SS Yellow right now:(
Member #409

It is 0445 in the morning.
Your rushing out the door because your going to be late for duty(in my case) or work.
You have the Elky warming up in the driveway and HOT cup of coffee in your hand.
Jump in and your ready to go.
But wait what do I do with my REAL HOT cup of coffee? Set it between my leg, yeah.
I push in clutch and shift. OUCH M@!#$!F@#$

Gee,I never did THAT shifting an Automatic.

I guess there are PRO's and CON's.....





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JR
70 396SS El Camino #'s Matching.
69 396SS Chevelle, project "Street Bruiser"
H-D Ultra Classic E-Glide
I live to own toyz...

All those replies and not one mention of a manual shift valve body auto.If you think an auto with a good shift kit shifts good drive a car that has a manual valve body in it, we are talking whiplash here. I have had mine in my 70 Chevelle with th400 for 15 years mostly street driven to work and long trips from CA to CO and others. These only shift when you do it manually up or down,Watch full throttle shifts as the rearend likes to come around

Bob, that was my thought. Gonna race sometimes, manual T350/400, mainly street`some strip = ST10 with 2.88 1st. I never owned a manual, but have driven a few. Very nice.

With loud exhaust, the sound between shifts is way cool too. 4 speed definetly.

Chris R.

Well, i got a th350 given to me for free so my 66 has a auto now but after I get it on the road, passes safty and so on, I am gonna look into getting a 4 speed. my sb350/350 combo will be pulled and the bb396 i'm building will be put in with i hope a 4 speed, think it is something about doing all the work yourselve and when that is done you know it is the right way. DZ hope they impliment that law here is canada.....

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OWNER OF 66 CHEVELLE MALIBU
Check out page dedicated to resto of my chevelle. still being made.
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/9801/ (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/9801/)
Team Chevelle # 424
Canadian Classics Chevelles and Beaumonts #393
Fav Quote: Second place is the first loser...

I'm going against the general consensus and vote for the auto crowd. Diddo Bob, that is exactly what I use combined with a rachet floor Megashifter. I can bang all three gears at 6K rpm's all day long without worrying about parts breakage or worn clutches. Besides, automatics behind enough power will break the tires in all three gears and hot spilled coffee in the lap at 4:45am is an absolute nightmare...who's got time for that mess? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/wink.gif

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1970 Malibu - 383 'Fog Fed' Stroker! Houston, Texas...Gold Member #39
Now looking for a 70' ragtop to... "Drop a Gear and Disappear!"

One small question....who NEEDS coffee when you have a Chevelle with a manual??

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71 Ragtop, under construction and over budget!
MCC #347, TC (Gold) #174

I'm not up on all this air shifted delay box BS, but just got a briefing from a client who wheeled a 70 Chevelle and bought a total drag car ( 83 Camaro ). Came with the air shifter powerglide, delay box so I asked him to 'splain it all to me. When complete I asked ghime, " So I can put your effin dog in the drivers seat and she'll run the 1/8 right?". Yup. BTW, he's tearing all that out so he can actually work the car. But brackets are brackets so you never know.

Sometimes it's too automatic.

Crazy,
I have an M20 for sale its out of a 69 SS 396
complete with flywheel, clutch, bellhousing, hurst shifter for 600
email me at kroq22@sprynet for details
Dan

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69 Chevelle
69 Mach 1( For Sale )

Great thread! And I agree with Madmax - my wife can't drive my 4-speed!

After going from a '70 SS with a TH400 to a '70 SS with a 4-speed and now a '66 SS with a 4-speed I will NEVER buy another auto. They just aren't nearly as fun to drive. And with the proper clutch (like a Centerforce Dual-Friction) that pedal-pushing can be almost effortless!

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Stan Hanek
'66 SS - 396 4 sp.
haneks@wdni.com

I'm kinda on both sides of this debate here.
Some cars without the power of a rat(sadly i don't have one) can use the get up and go of a manual to get going. Some of us are in the predictament though that swapping is expensive/lot of work.
I personally would love to install one in my car, but haven't the foggiest idea of how to go about it yet. But I do have a newer 4 cylinder car i drive every day while i'm working on getting my 68 chevelle going again.(Don't shoot me, I gotta get to work somehow). I specifically went looking for a car with a manual, cause they are slow with autos. I'm assuming the same kind of logic applies to the older muncies too.
I'll probably go over to manual too, so guess I'm leaning that way. As long as she goes tho, it's always fun http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

lucky,

As you see opinions vary, mostly because this is not really a performance related decision, it's a human personality decision. Decide yourself, If you've never experienced a gear jammer...you need to experience it...

There's nothing permanent about your choice either, so if you don't like it, just swap it out.


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68 El Camino...Slow, Much Work Required
98 Z28...Fast, No Work Required
Goodfellow AFB, San Angelo, TX -- Where? That's what I said..