My brother has a 69 GTO with the 400 engine. He was told that it is a small block and that the 396 in my 67 SS is a big block. Is this correct?

Pontiacs use the same block basically.301,326,350,389,400,428,and 455.They all look the same.It's like a small block Chevy,they all look alike externally.Hope this answers your question http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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1970 Chevelle SS396/L78/M21/4.10
1972 Olds 442 convertible(455,W25,M40)
1982 Oldsmobile Cutlass 350 Olds,TH350(daily driver)
"Be aware of the possible ramifications of the potential outcome"

[This message has been edited by mr 4 speed (edited 08-29-2000).]

I never have figured out why the Pontiac guys insist on calling the 455 a big block and the rest of them a small block ? Like you say, they are all the same size ! Must be an ego thing !

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Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

1971 Heavy Chevy - original owner
Team Chevelle #100

The pontiac never had a big block or a small block. They are all the same engine.
I believe the problem began when pontiac started putting small chevys in their cars.

Corey McConnell
Comax Racing
Comax @home.com

The pontiac never had a big block or a small block. They are all the same engine.
I believe the problem began when pontiac started putting small chevys in their cars.

Corey McConnell
Comax Racing
Comax @home.com

Just wondering guys does this hold true for Buick and Olds as well?

To hear someone refer to a Pontiac 350 as a big-block is just wrong. If you want to annoy a true Pontiac fanatic, look at his motor and call it a big block. If they roll their eyes, you know why.

They're just Pontiac. The block from 1955 got poked and stroked all the way up to a 455. Same external dimensions all those years. Mouse motors have well exceeded 427 cubes, but you don't hear anyone calling them a big-block. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Yes, it is vertually the same block. Most of the external pieces like heads, exhaust manifolds, intakes are interchangeable. In a way I like the chevy big block because you can tell it is............ like my friend SS540 says "it's a biGGer block".

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All throttle......no bottle.

I always thought there was something different about the 301 though (different deck height maybe?). I used to have one in a Firebird and it was tough to find aftermarket parts for it. Applications for parts always seemed to start with the 326 and worked their way up from there.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 260:
Just wondering guys does this hold true for Buick and Olds as well?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buick-Not sure.Oldsmobile "big blocks" are wider than their small block counterparts.260,307,330,350 and 403 are small blocks and the visually wider big blocks are 400,425 and 455 CI displacements.
Any takers on Buicks here ? http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif


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1970 Chevelle SS396/L78/M21/4.10
1972 Olds 442 convertible(455,W25,M40)
1982 Oldsmobile Cutlass 350 Olds,TH350(daily driver)
"Be aware of the possible ramifications of the potential outcome"

Huh? Buick made muscle cars? j/k http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif

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Justin
A.K.A Moloko
kman1@fast.net

Lets see now, me being a closet poncho fan, the 455... I've always heard that refered to as the "Mega-Cube" and the rest refered to a "Small Pontiac".

The Olds "W" motors are real W I D E.

Buick made this thing called the GSX 455 Stage 1... looked like a skylark on crack. I've heard that they could move... But since only grandpa bought Buicks I doub't it ever did.

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Francis Taracido Gold# 201
sniper0666@aol.com
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of man.
Oh No! You Know She's Got To Go!
Go Go Quadzilla! &lt;oo=+=oo&gt;
http://members.aol.com/sniper0666/page/intro.html

Yeah guys watch out for those Stage 1 GS 455 and GSX cars they can run even with or beat a LS-6 bone stock to bone stock, even was avail with a M-22 tranny.

Buicks started out with the "nail head" till mid 60's dont know much about those motors the 401 was the first GS motor, also a 330 and others. Also they had the 225 ( 3.5 l)aluminum V8 which was sold to Rover in the early 60's and still lives on in range rovers

then had two series of motors, the 307 /350 was a small block, the 400 (425?? may be a nail head) and 455 were a big block.

The olds is technically the same motor from 265 - 455 but the old 400 425 and 455 have a taller deck height, heads swap over different intake and distributor etc. Kinda like a 302 vs a 351W The 403 is a short deck with the same stroke as the 307 and 350.

And yes virginia the pontiac 301 uses a different block with a shorter deck height, plus they are totally junk. Gotta love those cast iron connecting rods in all pontiacs except for the imfamous SD-455

Just give me a rat or mouse thank you non adjustable valve trains bite

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Frank W
Arlington MA
74 Laguna S3 !! 305 Crane Blazer 284 Cam
73 Malibu Coupe Organ donor living on in my Laguna and other cars

hometown.aol.com/folingo/ (http://hometown.aol.com/folingo/)

[This message has been edited by 73Malibu (edited 08-31-2000).]

OK Frank, I'll give you the 10 ft-lb torque advantage for the 455 Buick. But what was the horsepower rating? I'm 99% sure it was less than 400, probably 375. But let's give it the benefit of the doubt and call it 390 hp. Do you really think the 60 hp it gives up to the LS6 won't be evident in the 1320? I'd love to have a GSX. But I wouldn't feel very confident running one against an LS6.

Markcord, in a recent Pure Stock Muscle Drags featured in Musclecar Review, just that race took place, with the LS6 only winning because of driver Randy Miller's quicker reaction time. The cars were dead even! The buick is a torque monster, and torque moves mass, not horsepower. The GSX embarrassed many an unsuspecting driver.

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Dan Orgill

Why run? You'll only go to jail tired.

Pontiac except 301: same external dimentions, but the "big" ones have larger main journals. You could call 'em "big journal" Pontiacs, but that never caught on. A "big...whatever" Pontiac is a 421, 428, or 455. Everything else is a "small...whatever" Poncho.

The 301 truly is doo-doo. Shorter deck height and they only supported the crank with three main bearings! Total junk.

Okay, Mr Buick here! According to Motor trend magazine tests...the "old mans" Buick GS Stage I came in at number three fastest muscle cars of all time at 13.50/105.3 behind the Zl-1 (not even a "real" prodution car for God's sake) and the 427 Cobra (another "sort of" production car!). The LS-6 Chevelle ran a 13.8/97.5 by the way, almost exactly the same as my '65 Gran Sport with a stock single four cast iron manifold 401 (13.88/99.9) As for the 10 Ft pounds torque..the 455 has 510 stock, what does the 454 have? And the 425 is a nailhead, along with the 401, 364, and 322 back in 1953, oh ya, on more thing...Buick won more NASCAR races in 1955 than Chevy. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 08-31-2000).]

I forgot the GSX is just a bunch of stickers and spoilers, the GS Stage I is the Buick you need to hide from. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Remember the HP rating in the early 70's is very conservative the '70 Stage I 455 produced more like 425 HP (the 1/4 mile times proves this)not the 360 advertized. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/smile.gif Nothing like blowing the compitition away with the A/C on! Buick...FAST WITH CLASS.

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T

Mr. Buick, if I recall correctly the LS6 had 500 ft-lbs. That's the 10 ft-lbs I was referring to. Also, what about Super Stock's LS6 test (with the photographer driving supossedly) of 12.65 at something like 113? I'm sure someone here ("260" where are you!) can confirm the numbers. Anyhow, I will not dispute the Buick 455 as the king of torque. But I'll take the LS6 any day. Just my humble opinion.

Kinda too bad they didn't put the RAM AIR V in the GTO's. It really would have spanked everything out there. The Royal Bobcat 69 GTO with the RAM AIR V ran a 12.20 in FL during a CARS road test. Anyone ever see that?
MarkCord, if you ever want to see a nasty Stage1, my buddy has one in Taunton. Car is MEAN. Anyone ever see the grudge match between the Stage 1 and the Hemi? That makes the Slowpar guys nuts!

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99 Ram Air TA, 66GTO

MarkCord, I understand the different times on these cars, if for no other reason the equipment on the cars could be different. In a '65 Motor trend they have the SS, GTO, 442 and the Gran Sport. The SS had a 327 (sorry, out of it's class) the GTO and 442 were stripos with steep posi gears (410 or so) the Gran Sport was fully loaded with A/C and a 3.08 one legger! Needless to say the Buick was the third fastest car that day.
mrgto, I wish I had a copie of the GSCA news letters on the StageI/Hemi shoot out, it is a gas to read! For those of you who aren't familiar, here it is in a nutshell..After the Buick won in the GS/Hemi shoot out from the previous year, the Mopar boys brought out the big guns. They trailered in a Cuda, as I rememember, with a 426 that was basicly a superstock motor with exhaust manifolds. It had a two four crossram and was very impressive. This "stock" car cam with a 12 man crew! It was trailered in with many spare parts and tools. The GS DROVE to the track with the slicks in the trunk! It had a "crew" of one and the motor still had the stock iron intake complete with Quadrajet carb! After the Buick beat the Hemi in two of the first 3 out of 5 runs the Hemi was trailered and left in disgrace! They were running around 12.60s, and were a tenth or so apart. If I have missed some facts or given any wrong info, please understand this is from memory.
Here is another site were the "baby Buick motors" are displayed. http://www.fastbuicks.com/ How about a non innercooled 231 CI V6 in a 3500 lb car that turns 11.91 at 111.40 !!!! OR the fastest superstocker in NHRA history running 8.29 @162.87 !!! These are V6s guys.
They are all fast when the right people get ahold of them! Chevy, Ford, Buick, and even Studebaker (I know of a 289 Avanti motored '52 Starlight coupe that runs 12.00 all day long) Just don't underestimate the "other guys" you may be surprized. http://www.chevelles.com/forum/biggrin.gif

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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T

Yep, I hear ya on that one Mr. Buick. In fact my problem is probably opposite. I usually overestimate everybody's rides and therefore never shoot my mouth off. Got a friend with a 74 340 Duster that runs 10s. Talk about a sleeper! No matter what, somebody out there is always faster. And you're right- they were all pretty fast. Who knows, with all this retro stuff taking the automotive world by storm (PT, SS/R, etc.) maybe, hopefully, we could come full circle and see cars being built that resembled their 60s and 70s counterparts. Ok, Ok, I know that's pretty off the wall but just allow me this one fantasy please.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARTINSR:
Okay, Mr Buick here! According to Motor trend magazine tests...the "old mans" Buick GS Stage I came in at number three fastest muscle cars of all time at 13.50/105.3 behind the Zl-1 (not even a "real" prodution car for God's sake) and the 427 Cobra (another "sort of" production car!). The LS-6 Chevelle ran a 13.8/97.5 by the way,

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes that LS6 test was bad(auto with 3.31 gears)!But how about Car Craft july 70 with a GSX stage 1 test 14.36 @ 99mph. Seven months earlier Car Craft ran a LS6 to 13.12 at 107mph.Basicly its who can get it to launch without roasting the tires.I love the stage one Buicks and dreamed of owning a 70 diplomat blue GS stage one for a while.They are awesome rides!!!


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Dean Ciampi
Team Chevelle Gold #52
Aces #3094 MY LS6 CHEVELLE (http://community-2.webtv.net/SS454chevelle/1970LS6CHEVELLE/)

Do I need to discuss W-30s, or shall I just leave it alone? (I think I will leave it alone, unless someone is in need of being seriously embarassed).
Someone did mention the Olds engine, and even though there is a SB and BB Olds, they really are the same, sort of.
There is the 260-403 dimension blocks,
and the 400-455 dimension blocks.
The difference is that the BB Olds have had the cylinder decks raised about 1in. The ONLY real thing which changes is the intake manifold because it is wider for the 400-455. EVERYTHING else is the same. You can PHYSICALLY bolt a 350 Olds head onto a 455 block because the bolt pattern is the same, the ports/valves are where the differences are in the heads.
If you have a Chev with a SB and want to convert to a BB, YOU HAVE TO CHANGE EVERYTHING!
With an Olds SB, such as a 350, you just unbolt the exhaust manifolds and accessories, lay them over to the side, install the 455 and bolt everything right back on and install longer belts (because the ac and alt are now up a little higher). Start the engine and drive away. Too easy. Now, there are some internal differences. For example, the mains of a 455 Olds block are considerably different from a 350 because the journals of a 455 crank are larger. But if you stand the 350 and 455 Olds cranks on end, they are the same. As I say, really, only the intake manifold is wider for a 400-455. THE DISTRIBUTORS ARE THE SAME. In fact, that is the only thing about SB/BB Chevys that is the same.

By the way, just like a Stage I Buick, you're a fool if you screw around with a W-30 Olds (especially a W-30 Hurst Olds). You don't have that much lunch money.

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Tom Parsons

[This message has been edited by DZAUTO (edited 09-01-2000).]