OK guys... Here's the deal,

I took my car out for a little romp last night. About five miles away from the house, I lit em' up and as I was slowing her back down I had a sudden loss of power. I immediately thought the distributor moved on me because it has happened before. I then glanced at the oil pressure gage... it read 0! :eek: I pulled off the road and shut her down. I popped the hood and looked at the distributor - yeah it had moved a few degrees big deal.

I started thinking... Must have twisted off the oil pump intermediate shaft. Well, I call a flat bed (thanks to AAA) and get her home. When I got home, pulled the distributor and check it out. No damage to the shaft end. Took a flash light and peered down in the hole I had just left in the intake. Sure as hell, there layed both ears off the top of the oil pump shaft. I fished them out with a magnet and they were broke clean. This shaft wasn't an ARP model but did have the metal bottom sleve so I assumed it was a stout shaft. WRONG!!! graemlins/clonk.gif

Next step - I drained the oil to check for sparkly items. None found! graemlins/beers.gif I even strained the oil through a paint strainer - not a single particle of anything.

First question: Can I get the remaining shaft out through the distributor hole? If so, any tricks to accomplish this?

Second question: Do you think I did any damage? I don't know exactly when the oil pressure dropped. If it was during the 5500 RPM blast I gotta think I would find some bearing glitter in the oil. Should I pull the engine and check the bearings or just replace the shaft with a good one and fire her back up and see how she runs and what kind of pressure I have?

Sorry so long but wanted all the info in place for a good assessment.

Thanks,

Troy.

Troy,
You might get the old shaft out, but you will not get the old one back in from the top :(
That being said, the next thing you need to do is find out why it broke. I bet almost anything that something caused it. I doubt it was a "weak" shaft. Either something bound up, or the shaft was in a bind from the beginning ? Or maybe the distributor is not going down far enough and not engaging the shaft enough ?? Or going down too far and making a bind ?
I would pull the filter and cut it open and see if there is any metal in the paper. You are going to have to pull the motor, or at least the pan, to change the shaft....it would not hurt to pull a couple of main caps off and take a look while you are there.
Hope this helps,

Well Bill, It's not what I wanted to hear but unfortunately what I expected to hear. As far as why the shaft failed, I believe it to be the combination of the HV pump and 20/50W oil. I was seeing 60+psi at idle and 100+ at 5000 RPM. I have never had it happen before with my stuff but I've seen it happen in the Alcohol motors I help crew for. We have to use a oil pan heater to heat the oil before starting the engine when we unload from the trailer or we most-certainly will lose the shaft. Have you seen it happen to street motors? Anyone else?

I think I will change to 10W40 and perhaps lose the HV pump. Comments?

I hope that is all it is, but I will look for signs of binding or rubbing. I will lift the motor enough to get the pan off and change the shaft and inspect the bearings. I will report back and let you know what I find.

Thanks,

Troy.

Troy,

What Bill said.

If the old shaft has a steel sleeve pinned on you won't be able to get it out the top. Definitely won't get a steel sleeve one in from the top.

Lose the HV/HP pump and the thick oil, you don't need this stuff unless somebody really botched the bearings and crank when your engine was built. Also, since the use of the bake and blast approach to cleaning blocks has become common I see more deals where a loose, leftover bead gets into the pump and locks it. Might want to inspect the old pimp carefully for signs of that. If you do find that, I'd still lose the HV/HP pump and 20W-50.

Last but not least, it's easier to pull the engine to do this. Dropping the pan on a BB Chevelle is no fun at all and getting it back together right is even worse. I recommend you bite the bullet, get a hoist, do it the easy way.

Tom

Troy,
I think you will definitely find something lodged in the pump. Although I am certainly not a proponent of thick oil, I don't think the thick oil and HV pump are responsible for the pump failure. Tom is right, you are well-advised to pull the engine to remove the pan on a Chevelle. Even with the engine raised, it is very hard to keep the pan gasket in place while reinstalling the pan.

Thanks guys,

I have done the pan before with the engine in. With the one piece gasket it makes it a little easier. I can always pull it if I see something ugly. I will pull apart the pump and check it for any particles. I will also go to a M77 and 10W40. I ran the 20W50 in there before the rebuild with the old M77HV and the oil pressure was much lower (20psi on avaerage). Did I just get a tighter pump this time?

Troy.

OK guys here's the scoop,

You were all correct, I did find something in the pump and then some. The pump was destroyed on the inside. It appears that a spring clip of unknown origin (looking at it I can't remember seeing anything in or on the engine that used this clip) broke and a piece got in the pump. This piece was in there for some time. Enough to wear a grove in two of the teeth on the pump gears. Anyway, the pump eventually broke a piece of one of the teeth off and it snowballed from there.

It twisted the intermediate shaft and sent pieces of metal through the system. I pulled one main cap to check bearing staus. Two grooves in the bearing from a piece of metal that had been running around in there. graemlins/sad.gif I suspect all the bearings are going to be this way. The only good bit of information is it looks as though the crank wasn't even scratched.

When this thing locked, it stopped so violently before it snapped, it broke both counterweights in the distributor and slung them aside. :eek: It does not appear to have damaged the distributor beyond that.

I didn't find much metal in the pan but I'm sure any is too much with this type of failure.

My plan is to finish removing the engine, clean everything thoroughly and install new bearings, pump, shaft and pickup then reassemble.

I can't imagine where this clip came from. The roller rockers use a different type of C-clip and it doesn't look like a clip from a lifter but I'll inspect them as I tear it down. It's curious that the clip is the same exact diameter as the pickup tube :confused: .

Do you have any suggestions, ideas or comments? I am totally perplexed as to where this thing came from or how it made it's way throught the brand new pump screen. Anyway I will keep you informed.

Thanks for your help,

Troy.

Wow, whattabummer. But, it's good that there was at least something to find.

I recommend you inspect the gear teeth on the cam and distributor gear carefully. This is the first time I've heard of one of these deals breaking up stuff in the dist, must have been a nasty hit to the gears.

Can you post a picture of the clip? I'd like to see it if possible.

It's possible it was already in the pickup when you put it together. I found a long curled drill bit chip in a new one once. Also, if you pull the cover off a pickup you'll see a bypass valve, protects against the screen getting plugged up.

Does your engine have full-floating wrist pins?

Tom

Troy,
All I can say is OUCH !! I would have the crankshaft polished while it is out. Cheap insurance. I would also like to see a picture of the culprit.

I've had this happen to me before. It was in a Bronco. Some of the rubber valve seals had hardened up, broke off and made there way back down to the pan. Sucked a piece up into the pump and BAM! It stopped the motor instantly. Luckly ther wasn't any major damage other than a new pump and new valve seals.
Good thing,..I was young with a mediocre job. Extra money was needed for girls and beer. graemlins/clonk.gif

The distributor gear looks OK other than some minor wear marks. I'll let you know how the CAM looks as well. I'll get some pictures of the rest of the stuff as well including bearings by Monday after I get a chance to go through it all.

I really down over this. I spent such care in putting this all together cleaning everything and checking all clearances and specs like it was going into a CUP car. What a slap in the face! I hope I don't discover it's something I overlooked. I might have to jump off of the shop roof!

Anyway - thanks guys and I'll update this thread as I have more info.

Troy.

Guys, I will try to post some pictures tomorrow. I worked on this till 1:00 this morning and didn't think about taking pictures until this morning on the way to work.

My pistons are pressed pins so there's no clips on them. The only thing I can think of is lifter snap rings but I won't know that until I get further into it. It really doesn't look like it's from a lifter but I can't think of anything else that uses a snap ring in this motor. I'm leaning toward it was already in the pickup like you mentioned unless I discover otherwise.

This post was supposed to go first. I guess I'm tired 'cuz I have no idea how I got them reversed.

Thanks,

Troy.

Yep, I would like to see pics of this too. Very interesting.

Sorry for your troubles. Bummer.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

One more question,

Should I consider blocking off the bypass in the filter adapter this time? Seems like my troubles would have been less had I done it last time. I purchased the standard pump and will be using 10W40 oil. If so, what is the preferred method for doing so?

Troy.

I had a piece of a spring clip from a lifter get in through the pump pickup screen. Locked up the pump and sheared the drive. Heard the lifters clattering from lack oil press. and shut it off before it hurt the bottom. The wire piece was about a half in. long with a bend in one end. About .030 in diameter.

Other than the clips in lifters, some cam buttons have some odd looking clips, snap rings, etc. (If you're using one)

Troy,
Blocking the bypass would not have helped anything. The pump get oil before the filter. I personally do not think blocking the bypass is a good idea on a street engine. The benefits are few, and the chance of a problem such as blowing a filter apart internally, is too great.

OK Bill, I know it wouldn't have helped the pump but I would have saved the bearings perhaps? I have heard mixed opinions on that but I guess I should probably chalk this experience up to bad luck and leave it alone.

I took some pictures and will get them posted as soon as I can get them on my website at work. Should be there in the morning sometime.

Thanks for all your help.

Troy.

Originally posted by Troy70SS:
One more question,

Should I consider blocking off the bypass in the filter adapter this time? Seems like my troubles would have been less had I done it last time. I purchased the standard pump and will be using 10W40 oil. If so, what is the preferred method for doing so?

Troy. I know how you feel Troy.
You could spring for a full flow oil filter.
These are re-useable and will handle all of your oil volume. They are around 100 bucks though.
The replacement elements are around 10 bucks.
I am considering one after my engine mishaps.
They have certainly cost me more than 100 bucks.

I saw these in a Dragster newspaper. If you know someone who is a member of NHRA, they should have a copy. If not, I can get specific info for you.

Dave

Thanks for all your support guys. The pictures are up on my site. Let me know what you think. Especially what you think this wire is. I will know for sure after this weekend it it came from my lifters.

Let me know if you can view these or not. I am logged into the network and haven't tried accessing them from off-site.

Pump Failure Pics (http://www.cfifl.com/twg)

Troy.

SS_Dave,

I have a friend who runs Top Alcohol Dragster and that's what he wants me to do but I'm a little apprehensive. I'll have plenty of time to think about it before I button it back up. I just put this thing in the car a month ago so I'm bummed about having to do this again.

Troy.

I think the 'woodgrain' lines are a fingerprint on your lens. And you might lay a dime or something next to the wire for size reference. Sorry to see the trouble..........

The wire loop is roughly 5/8" in diameter. The wire gage is about the same as a large paper clip. Just about the size to be used as a cup retainer in a lifter. We will see if that's what it is.

Troy.

Troy, try and buy replacement weights for your distributor. If it is an HEI Mr. Gasket sells the kit for 5 bucks at any speed shop and some auto parts stores. The weights need to be the same weight as the old ones, or else your advance curve will be completely off.

Just a thought...

Yeah - I have a set of Mr Gasket weights. No offense but - They're junk. :rolleyes: They weigh half as much as the stock weights. If the stainless weights are too heavy, I can reshape them. I usually end up grinding a set of weights to get the curve right when I'm messing with a distributor anyway so I might as well have something top notch. If it doesn't work I haven't lost anything but if it does, I will have the nicest set of counterweights this side of the mississippi. graemlins/beers.gif

Troy

A couple of people emailed me saying they could'nt see the link. It is in one of the posts I made on the second page. I'm also trying to add a link from my signature. Just click on the link for the "1970 454 SS". I hope it works OK.

Troy.

I looked that over pretty good, nice pics. I'm having a hard time placing that clip in a Chevy motor.
i haven't seen a lifter clip like that, the ones I'm familiar with have straight sides or are a tru-arc type, flat with holes for snap ring pliers. I think it'll turn out not to be an Chevy internal engine part.

Tom

Originally posted by Troy70SS:
If the stainless weights are too heavy, I can reshape them. I usually end up grinding a set of weights to get the curve right when I'm messing with a distributor anyway so I might as well have something top notch. If it doesn't work I haven't lost anything but if it does, I will have the nicest set of counterweights this side of the mississippi. graemlins/beers.gif

Troy :cool: Just a thought that came to my mind when I looked at your pics.

Wish I could help you determine where that clip came from

Good luck to you!

Sheesh, thats ugly ! ( pics view fine ) Hope it all goes back nice and SCREAMS when you're done.

Not being an experienced engine builder, that thing looks "foreign" to me. Not a spirolock, lifter lock...????

Is the clip from your relief spring on the oil pump?

The only way that clip could have gotten in there is from the oil sump or the relief valve.
You have a screen on your pickup, right?
Unless the clip was in the bottom of the pan and the spacing in your pickup screen was large enough to let it through eventually.

It still looks like a wristpin clip.
I know you said you don't have floating pins, so maybe someone dropped it in the pan and did not want to pull the engine apart to get it out.

Dave

OK guys - here's the scoop.

I tore the engine down last night and discovered where the clip came from. It's not from rockers or lifters. It's from the valve stem seals on the intake valve on #6. The heads are the only thing I didn't assemble myself so I didn't pay that much attention to the valve seals. I had seen the narrow umbrella seals he was putting on the exhaust valves because I was there when he put in the last few exhaust valves. I never looked that hard at the intake seals.

Any it's ggod to know that it wasn't inadvertantly dropped into the engine when I was assembling everything. smile.gif It's not good that these seal clips failed. I'll try to get some pictures today or Sunday to post showing the seal in question.

Obviously I'm changing all of these seals to something else. In thinking about it, the clip either was cracked or broken during head assembly or it wasn't seated correctly on the seal and came loose and the valve spring broke it. Otherwise, it couldn't have come off of the valve stem and through the spring. Should I ask the machine shop to replace the seals at his cost? Should I just leave him alone and chalk it up to bad luck? He did a beautiful job on the heads and I don't think he was negligent - I like the guy.

What seals should I use? The Speed shop recommended Comp's white seals with the flat keeper sleeve. What's the concensus on these? I want something that isn't going to destroy my engine again. There's no graemlins/angry.gif way the existing seals are staying in there!

Oh BTW, I checked and the wire from this clip just does fit through the holes in the screen of the pickup. Damn the bad luck! :mad:

Opinions on seals please......

Troy.

Troy,
I think you need to really check the heads out. First of all, make sure that there is plenty of room between the spring and the seal. Most double springs do not have enough room to use the type of seal you are describing. Also, make certain that the retainer is not coming down and hitting the seal at full lift. If you need a seal that is smaller od...either use the teflon seals, or EngineTech makes a nice metal cased seal with a rubber insert. Your machine shop should be able to get them for you.
Hope this helps,

I think you are right Bill. I have some pictures to post of the actual seal and of the springs and their clearance to the cup. I will post them Monday at work and let everyone know they are there. I am so disgusted with all of this! graemlins/angry.gif

Troy.

Please discuss this with your Mechanic, but to me, it appears to be just one of those things unless the springs are too small, I.D.-wise and are getting to the seals.

Guy's, are the base of the springs located by their I.D.??? So they can't get to the seals..

I'm using Comp. Products Manton singles which have a big I.D., so I never even considered this to be a problem. I am using the rubber locked-on type on the intakes and big red or orange umbrella type on my exhaust... pdq67

PDQ - Thanks for the feedback. I'm hoping I can use these springs with some other seals because they are matched with the CAM and I've purchased the retainers and locks to match. I'm the mechanic but I'll talk to the shop about the head assembly as soon as I'm sure I have my facts right. The heads are the only thing I didn't assemble myself. I have always let the shop perform this work in the past but I will be scrutinizing it closer in the future.

I didn't see any evidence of the springs hitting the seals but with so little time on the engine, I'm not sure I would.

Follow the link on my signature for some actual pics of the seals and springs installed. Let me know what you think.

Troy.

Troy,
I use the WHITE Teflon seals for all the high performance engine that I build. Have never had a problem with them and they fit inside most springs. When using Teflon seals the guide/stem clearance must not be fitted too tight, especially with cast iron guides. The clearance should be at the middle to the high side of the spec range. Even at the high side, the valve does not have any valve face to seat runout.
The guide OD for big blocks must be machined to .531" or .500". If your guide is already machined to .525", you will need to machine it to .500". Most automotive machine shops should have the correct tool for machining the heads for Teflon seals.

EG,

Those are what I was thinking of using. Why would they have been .525. .530 is a common size for cutting the guides is it not? I don't understand what this shop was thinking.

Should I consider using the spring locators as well to help center the spring?

Troy.

has anyone tried the seals that are the PC type that competition products sells that are supposed to let a little oil thru for lubrication?

Originally posted by ratuned:
has anyone tried the seals that are the PC type that competition products sells that are supposed to let a little oil thru for lubrication? I just put them in.
I have 75 miles on the motor and about 3 hrs running time. I'll let you know if I sieze a valve or start smoking.

Dave

OK guys - I now know why it happened. The other night I started checking the heads over real good. I have the bottom end back together and wanted to make sure this didn't happen again. With the spring off and the retainer installed with keepers, I measured the distance between the retainer and the top of the seal -> .495". This is a real problem when the intake lift is .560". I'm sure that's what popped the ring off. I'm also sure the the machinist should have checked this dimension and I told him so without being an ******* about it. He is now redoing the heads and paying more attention to detail.

SS_Dave - I would like to hear about those seals myself.

Troy.

Troy I was just gonna type that as well. samething happened to me only mine took out 2 cams and eventually the whole motor. I suggest checking your cam lobes as well. Best wishes.

Thanks for the reply Milan.

I checked my CAM and it is OK. It only had about 25 miles on it so it really hadn't had time to destroy the lobes yet but I'm sure it would have. I hope he gets them right this time. You can be sure that I'll be dis-assembling them and checking everything myself this time before they go on.

Troy.