Mild "budget" 350 cam ... suggestions [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: Mild "budget" 350 cam ... suggestions


brimac
Oct 23rd, 11, 4:54 PM
I'm putting together a mild .060 over 350, that's going into a '70 El Camino, that will be sold. 8.5-9 to 1 (probably closer to 8.5), 882 heads, headers, Performer manifold, 1850 Holly. Vehicle will have a 3.36 rear end, and a stock converter. The CC 260 ,12-206 cam, ( 260/260, 212/212, .440/.440, 110, 1200-5200, .... and lifters have met their life expectancy, judging by the very noticable concave surfaces of the lifters.

As noted, this a budget, and also unplanned, rebuild. I'm hoping to find a cost effective cam with similar characteristics, from a source other than the highly promoted cam companies. Any suggestions? Thanks

grovey
Oct 23rd, 11, 6:29 PM
how about the isky 264 mega cam ? i think it would work well with what you have.

sschevellefan
Oct 23rd, 11, 7:12 PM
you can get the Elgin copy of the crane 274HO6 from several places for about $100 for cam and lifters. with the 106LSA it will have a nice choppy idle. might help the sale if it sounds hotter than it really is.

hferris
Oct 23rd, 11, 8:56 PM
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-K1102/

Cheap, tons of low end, and not from a major cam company....

Slick71ss
Oct 23rd, 11, 9:20 PM
you can get the Elgin copy of the crane 274HO6 from several places for about $100 for cam and lifters. with the 106LSA it will have a nice choppy idle. might help the sale if it sounds hotter than it really is.

Good advice right there. Elgin cam/lifter kit, part # E1785PM. It's $113.95 at Competition Products. Also sold under Summit Racing part # SUM-K00172 for a little more.

sschevellefan
Oct 23rd, 11, 9:42 PM
Good advice right there. Elgin cam/lifter kit, part # E1785PM. It's $113.95 at Competition Products. Also sold under Summit Racing part # SUM-K00172 for a little more.

northern has it for $99 cam/lifters but with shipping to me at least ends up being about $115. The summit cam hferris linked to would be good also.

kettbo
Oct 23rd, 11, 11:33 PM
are the heads off?
if so, get a GMPP shim head gasket in there, build a tad more compression.
Then cams should have a little advance ground into them. Consider advancing the cam a tad more for more low end power

brimac
Oct 24th, 11, 12:34 AM
are the heads off?
if so, get a GMPP shim head gasket in there, build a tad more compression.
Then cams should have a little advance ground into them. Consider advancing the cam a tad more for more low end power

Yeah, I've thought of that and I like the idea. It's evident that the block has been decked, at some point, but that was before I acquired it, 25 + years ago. Maybe it's still straight. Block is at the machine shop currently, ... I'll have them check it for straightness. The heads going on it, have been surfaced, but not milled. What's the part number of the GMPP gasket you're referring to?

kettbo
Oct 24th, 11, 12:53 AM
my pal Greg bought some from the local Chevy dealer a year ago...
pretty sure it was this one
http://www.streetperformance.com/part/gm-performance-parts/head-gasket/713030-10105117.html

steelcomp
Oct 24th, 11, 1:17 AM
Not sure wht the specs were, but the 300hp 327 cam worked pretty well in a mild 350.

brimac
Oct 27th, 11, 4:31 PM
I still have not yet decided on a cam. Maybe a few more specifics would help. Given my combo, what would be the most duration allowable, ... that still produces good vacuum, and works with a stock converter? Think I'll end up at 9 to 1 after all. Thanks

Highway Star
Oct 27th, 11, 4:52 PM
Voodoo 60102
Almost any of your "256", "262" or "268" cams.

badrad
Oct 27th, 11, 6:19 PM
My high school DD had a 350 w/specs like yours. I put a Crane Fireball 290 in it, had a great sound and lots of low end TQ. It was .454" lift I/E, 216*/216* duration and110 LSA.

It looks to have been replaced with the Energizer 272.

Slowpoke70
Oct 27th, 11, 7:23 PM
Major cam company, and specifically the same one you're using now, but may I've talked to have told me the Comp Cams 268AH-10 is a great street cam for a mild 350. Not to be confused with the standard single-pattern 268H.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-318-4/

222/226 268/276 .464/.464 110LSA

There's also the 260AH-10 which is closer in size to your current cam, with a little more exhaust duration.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-312-4/

212/218 260/268 .444/.444

Change the -10 to a -8 on either cam to get it on 108LSA for a little more lumpy idle and light-switch-like-response when it gets into its groove.

brimac
Oct 28th, 11, 4:54 AM
This "budget" cam caught my eye. Lunati Bare Bones 10001lk. Description is: Good idle for daily usage or towing, Good low end and mid range. 1500-5000, .443/.465, 214/224, 280/290, 112/107 LSA. It appears that this combination of lifts, durations, and LSA's produce, a friendly cam. However, the longer durations, have me wondering. Any thoughts? Thanks

Monte Carlo
Oct 28th, 11, 5:57 AM
If your doing a budget rebuild that your going to sell anyway, why not put a stock cam in there?

mr
Oct 28th, 11, 10:33 AM
Not sure what the specs were, but the 300hp 327 cam worked pretty well in a mild 350.
Just for the record, here's a few other GM camshaft's from the 1960's & 1970 for the SBChevy ...

1.) stock 327/300HP camshaft specs = (195/202 @.050 duration w/.390/.410 valve lift @112*) ....

2.) stock 327/350HP camshaft specs = (221/221 @.050 duration w/.447/.447 valve lift @114*) ....

3.) stock 350/350HP camshaft specs = (222/222 @.050 duration w/.450/.460 valve lift @114*) ....

4.) stock 350/370HP camshaft specs = (234/246 @.050 duration w/.459/.485 valve lift @116*) ....

5.) stock 327/365HP camshaft specs = (246/246 @.050 duration w/.484/.484 valve lift @114*)
(note) = 302/290HP/Z28 camshaft used the same specs (246 @.050 duration w/.484 valve lift)
.... A mild Erson TQ40 cam specs = (218/228 @.050 duration w/.472 valve lift), using/1.5:1 rockers ....
If your just looking to add 50-60 HP+, I'd look at a camshaft & kit, to get the most bang for your money.

Change Cam - Gain 77 HP ..... "article on page 22, in the magazine"

A few years ago there were claims by a magazine of adding 77 horsepower to a wimpy 8.6:1 compressioned 355 sbc equipped w/"the usual hot rodding parts" headers, 750 Speed Demon carb, Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap intake, 2.02/1.60 Summit aluminum heads, MSD, ect.

[b]Just using an Erson TQ40 cam kit [218/228@.050 duration][.472 valve lift, w/1.5:1 rockers]
instead of the stock [195/202 duration] factory type [.390/.410 lift] camshaft ...

Using this Erson TQ40 cam, it showed gaining a maximum of 77 hp @ 5,600 RPM = [403 hp/maximum] .....
and gaining 20 pounds of torque, @ 4,400 RPM = [418# torque/maximum] over the stock low lift camshaft.

Oddly enough, from 2,000-to-3,900 RPM, results were [-1 horsepower] and [-4 pounds of torque].

Average gains from 2,000-to-5,900 RPM, were 44 horsepower & 35 pounds of torque .....

This Erson TQ40 cam showed gaining 78 hp & 78 pounds of torque, from about 4,000-to-5,900 RPM.

novadude
Oct 28th, 11, 1:08 PM
Oddly enough, from 2,000-to-3,900 RPM, results were [-1 horsepower] and [-4 pounds of torque].



Read that part carefully. A TQ40 cam would be a TERRIBLE choice for a heavy El Camino, stock converter, 3.36 gears IMO. Think about it... on the street and during a 1/4 mile pass, that car will spend a LOT of time in the 2000-3900 rpm range. If ALL torque gains are above that RPM range, any real performance improvement will be minimal, and the car won't feel much stronger SOTP when screwing around on the street. You want to keep the duration much smaller IMO (< 215 @ 0.050).

Isky 262 Supercam or 264 Megacam would be a good choice.

BigEd36
Oct 28th, 11, 2:50 PM
This "budget" cam caught my eye. Lunati Bare Bones 10001lk. Description is: Good idle for daily usage or towing, Good low end and mid range. 1500-5000, .443/.465, 214/224, 280/290, 112/107 LSA. It appears that this combination of lifts, durations, and LSA's produce, a friendly cam. However, the longer durations, have me wondering. Any thoughts? Thanks

There's been a lot of GOOD suggestions here, but for "bang for the buck" I really like that grind. The Lunati 10001lk is their copy of the cam GMPP uses in the 350HO 330HP crate engine, and the 350CI 350HP "Street Stock" circle track crate engine, both 9:1 CR engines with Vortec heads, and they're considered "torque monsters" by many of the guys who run them. It's a very popular grind, and can be bought from SpeedPro, Elgin, Lunati, Summit, and others. Pace Performance uses the same grind in their Pace Pac 350CI 300HP (http://paceperformance.com/i-6237688-gmp-10067353-4-chevy-350cid-300hp-brand-new-crate-engine-no-intake.html) which is a Goodwrench 350 with the cam upgraded, tho I have no idea who they actually use as their supplier. I believe Pace's version is a better combo than the GMPP 350 290HP version, for less $$$$. With EVERY cam company having the same, or a nearly identical grind, I believe that says something for the popularity/usefulness of the grind in engines that guys are running. It has good street manners (plenty of vacuum for power brakes, will work well with a stock torque converter and differential gears), a wide power band, pulls strong to 6000 rpm, and a bit of "rumpety rump" at idle, which we all love. Here's a YouTube video of a Monte Carlo with the Summit K1103 version: 1986 Monte Carlo SS - Hedman 68311 Headers, Cats & Pypes SGG12V - YouTube

Here's the SpeedPro version cam/lifter kit for .94.99 at Northern Auto Parts: http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=18649

Here's the Elgin version cam, lifter, valve springs, locks, seals, ass'y lube for $139.95 at Competition Products: http://www.competitionproducts.com (http://www.competitionproducts.com/Elgin-Hydraulic-Flat-Tappet-Complete-Cam-Kit-Chev-SB/productinfo/E922K/)/Elgin-Hydraulic-Flat-Tappet-Complete-Cam-Kit-Chev-SB/productinfo/E922K/ (http://www.competitionproducts.com/Elgin-Hydraulic-Flat-Tappet-Complete-Cam-Kit-Chev-SB/productinfo/E922K/)

The Lunati cam/lifter kit for $99.95 at Summit Racing: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-10001LK/

The Summit K1103 cam/lifter kit for $99.95 at Summit Racing: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-K1103/

brimac
Oct 28th, 11, 11:13 PM
Mark, ... my Elky's exterior needs some "attention" to be nice. A strong running/sounding engine would be a good selling point, I believe

Ed, I think you've talked me into it!

Rubeng442
Oct 29th, 11, 12:17 AM
This "budget" cam caught my eye. Lunati Bare Bones 10001lk. Description is: Good idle for daily usage or towing, Good low end and mid range. 1500-5000, .443/.465, 214/224, 280/290, 112/107 LSA. It appears that this combination of lifts, durations, and LSA's produce, a friendly cam. However, the longer durations, have me wondering. Any thoughts? Thanks

I have used that same cam in a super-econo 350 build. Very little lope, good vacuum and excellent street manners. Do not expect a lot of HP though, especially with the stock 882 heads. My build used 096 Vortecs.

The durations on this cam are rated at .004 which adds about 6-8 degrees over what Comp Cams rates their cams at.

sschevellefan
Oct 29th, 11, 10:57 AM
This is what the crame 274HO6 sounds like is a stock 350 with headers. You can get the summit version and elgin has a version as well,

Crane Energizer 274 H06 Cam Rough Choppy Lopey Idl - YouTube

brimac
Oct 29th, 11, 2:16 PM
I have used that same cam in a super-econo 350 build. Very little lope, good vacuum and excellent street manners. Do not expect a lot of HP though, especially with the stock 882 heads. My build used 096 Vortecs.

The durations on this cam are rated at .004 which adds about 6-8 degrees over what Comp Cams rates their cams at.

I expect whoever buys this El Camino, will probably swap out the heads, if more power is needed. This engine is a replacement for a 385 stroker, that I'm keeping

69cam
Oct 30th, 11, 12:34 PM
Check out my build. I have about $500 total in the build and it runs great.


http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=189821

brimac
Nov 1st, 11, 5:26 PM
There's been a lot of GOOD suggestions here, but for "bang for the buck" I really like that grind. The Lunati 10001lk is their copy of the cam GMPP uses in the 350HO 330HP crate engine, and the 350CI 350HP "Street Stock" circle track crate engine, both 9:1 CR engines with Vortec heads, and they're considered "torque monsters" by many of the guys who run them. It's a very popular grind, and can be bought from SpeedPro, Elgin, Lunati, Summit, and others. Pace Performance uses the same grind in their Pace Pac 350CI 300HP (http://paceperformance.com/i-6237688-gmp-10067353-4-chevy-350cid-300hp-brand-new-crate-engine-no-intake.html) which is a Goodwrench 350 with the cam upgraded, tho I have no idea who they actually use as their supplier. I believe Pace's version is a better combo than the GMPP 350 290HP version, for less $$$$. With EVERY cam company having the same, or a nearly identical grind, I believe that says something for the popularity/usefulness of the grind in engines that guys are running. It has good street manners (plenty of vacuum for power brakes, will work well with a stock torque converter and differential gears), a wide power band, pulls strong to 6000 rpm, and a bit of "rumpety rump" at idle, which we all love. Here's a YouTube video of a Monte Carlo with the Summit K1103 version: 1986 Monte Carlo SS - Hedman 68311 Headers, Cats & Pypes SGG12V - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hurUUTnGcTM)

Here's the SpeedPro version cam/lifter kit for .94.99 at Northern Auto Parts: http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=18649

Here's the Elgin version cam, lifter, valve springs, locks, seals, ass'y lube for $139.95 at Competition Products: http://www.competitionproducts.com (http://www.competitionproducts.com/Elgin-Hydraulic-Flat-Tappet-Complete-Cam-Kit-Chev-SB/productinfo/E922K/)/Elgin-Hydraulic-Flat-Tappet-Complete-Cam-Kit-Chev-SB/productinfo/E922K/ (http://www.competitionproducts.com/Elgin-Hydraulic-Flat-Tappet-Complete-Cam-Kit-Chev-SB/productinfo/E922K/)

The Lunati cam/lifter kit for $99.95 at Summit Racing: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-10001LK/

The Summit K1103 cam/lifter kit for $99.95 at Summit Racing: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-K1103/

I see Summit's 1003 version shows 272/282 advertised durations. Lunati's Bare Bones 10001lk is a 280/290. Everything else looks identical between the two. Would the characteristics of these two cams, be noticably different, or not? Thanks

Slowpoke70
Nov 1st, 11, 7:10 PM
The durations on this cam are rated at .004 which adds about 6-8 degrees over what Comp Cams rates their cams at.

Likely explanation why Summit's version has slightly lower advertised duration numbers.

BigEd36
Nov 1st, 11, 8:46 PM
I see Summit's 1003 version shows 272/282 advertised durations. Lunati's Bare Bones 10001lk is a 280/290. Everything else looks identical between the two. Would the characteristics of these two cams, be noticably different, or not? Thanks

Brimac, I doubt there is any real difference in the 2 cams. I would almost bet my lunch money that they came from the same grinder. As Rubeng442 has pointed out, companies measure the advertised duration at different lifts to make their cams sound different than those of other sellers, even tho most of the popular grinds are made by the cam manufactures, and packaged for the seller.

This is a copy and paste of a post from www.nitromater.com (http://www.nitromater.com) a few years ago.

Re: Who makes the best cam and valvetrain parts? I bought a Summit cam for my AMX after reading this. $74.95 w/lifters.


Camshaft Machine Company (CMC) located in Jackson, Michigan was established in 1942 and is probably the largest designer and manufacturer of automotive camshafts in the world. CMC produces cams for GM, Ford, Chrysler, Comp Cams, Lunati, Edlebrock, Crane, Wolverine and many others.

Most (but not all) of the automotive camshafts produced today are produced at one of the “Big Three” cam manufacturers all located in Michigan. CMC of Jackson, MI., Engine Power Components (EPC) of Muskegon, MI., and Waver Bartel Cam Company, of Grand Haven, MI.

CMC purchased Wolverine approximately 1990/1991.

Crane Cams purchased CMC around 1995 and Wolverine was included in this purchase. During this period Crane owned both Wolverine and CMC.

Crane sold CMC to Federal Mogul about April or May of 1999. Crane did not sell Wolverine to Federal Mogul and Crane still owns Wolverine. Federal Mogul also owns the Waver Martel Cam Company.

CMC was the OEM supplier for most of the muscle car cams for GM, Ford, Chrysler and others back in the muscle car era. This included the infamous 9779067, 9779068, 9779041 etc. CMC currently supplies many cams to the OEM manufacturers and holds copyrights for many OEM grinds. If you purchase a Pontiac “original” muscle car grind like the 068 for an example, no matter whom you purchase it from it will be made by CMC.

Another interesting tid bit is that some time prior to 1990 when Crane and Wolverine were competitors Crane developed their own version of the Pontiac 9779068 (and maybe others) but advertised it as a computer enhanced version and not an exact duplicate. The reason that Crane did not produce an exact duplicate is because CMC still holds copyrights to this cam and many others.

Wolverine does not have their own cam grinding shop. CMC supplies most of the grinds to Wolverine. Crane also grinds some of Wolverine cams.

Even though Crane has their own cam grinding shop CMC still grinds some of the cams sold under the Crane name. Crane currently has the contract for the Summit brand cams. Crane also grinds some cams sold under the Wolverine name. Those Summit cams could be produced by CMC or Crane, hence the rumored Wolverine Summit connection.

It has been rumored that Crane makes all Wolverine Cams and this is not true. Most of the cams sold under the Wolverine name are produced by CMC. It is true that a small percentage of cams sold under the Wolverine name are produced at the Crane manufacturing facility. To complicate things further it seems that certain grinds could be purchased under the Crane or Wolverine name that are the exact same grind, and CMC or Crane depending on the grind could have produced the cam.

It’s interesting that most people have not heard of CMC, EPC, or Waver Bartel even though they have been around for a very long time, longer than a lot of us have.

Not much will change now that Federal Mogul owns CMC. They will still produce the same cams and will pretty much supply them to the same customers sold under various nameplates. Federal Mogul recently acquired the TRW automotive products division also. The infamous TRW forged pistons that are so popular with we Pontiac folks are still produced at the same factory as when they were owned by TRW. Federal mogul also now owns seal Power. Federal Mogul also purchased the Clevite Bearing company. This gave Federal Mogul an almost airtight grip on the automotive bearing industry. This created an unfair marketing advantage and the Federal trade Commission (FTC) required Federal Mogul to sell Clevite, which they have done.

So the next time you buy your new Comp Cams, Lunati, Ultradyne, Iskenderian, Engle, or other cam there is a good chance it was actually made in Michigan at one of the top three cam makers. What the cam companies do is have their proprietary grinds (design, lob profile etc.) and have them ground by one of the big three. Very few cams are actually ground by a name brand cam company, Crane is one exception but they don’t grind all of theirs either.
__________________
Some very interesting facts there. As far as I know Crane is still making the Summit branded cams. But, for the Summit version of the Crane 274HO6 recommended by sschevellefan (another of my favorite cams) the summit part for the cam is Sum-1785, and the same cam from Elgin is a E1785P. I WOULD bet my lunch money that they come from the same grinder.

Geoff1200
Nov 4th, 11, 10:22 AM
Voodoo 60102
Almost any of your "256", "262" or "268" cams.

x2:beers:

Lilracr
Nov 4th, 11, 12:14 PM
As far as I know Crane is still making the Summit branded cams
Is Crane back in business? Last I knew they closed the doors.

Highway Star
Nov 4th, 11, 12:46 PM
They are operational again, Bobby.

matt2491
Nov 4th, 11, 1:12 PM
I know absolutely nothing... but I love my Comp Cams 268H :) This is in my 350 with Vortec heads, but otherwise stock, daily driver.