Hi,
What is this head worth? The school has one and I asked about it. It is assembled. I took out the valves and the valves are good and ground, but the seats haven't been ground. The springs look to be stock double springs. I was guessing that these heads were supposed to have 2.02/1.60 valves. I measured, just with a tape measure not a mic, and these valves are either 1.94/1.50 or 2.02/1.50. Anyone have an idea of what they flow? I've got some 487's sitting around and am wondering if the 487X's would be worth getting just to have around. Also, can someone recommend a good factory SBC 64cc casting for a hi-po SBC?
Thanks

Trever


http://www.mortec.com/castnum.htm

Look em up !!! In our prior discussion I don't think you put the "X" on the end


Rick

PS: If you want to sell the 487's e-mail me !!!

Hi Rick!

I've found some places that say that the 487's are 1.94/1.50 heads and the 487X's 2.02/1.60 heads. Maybe I measured wrong??? Maybe they're smaller from grinding??? Maybe I proved everyone else wrong??? :D Wish I would know.

I do know the guides need replacing or sleeving on these because I could wiggle the valve around a little. Also i'm sure that they need hardened keepers for unleaded gas. I also just bought a porting/polishing/deburring kit off the SK Tool truck yesterday so i'll have to try that out sometime. I believe it's a four piece kit in a red pouch.

But if anyone can clarify the valve and port size of these heads please let me know.

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

P.S. Rick, you've got mail!! graemlins/hurray.gif smile.gif

Hey Trever,

Can't say for sure about the original valve sizes, mabe somebody else here will

Usually valve seats are ground/cut for larger valves not smaller,

And it's the valve "seat" on the exhaust which is usually cut out and a "hardened" seat installed for unleaded gas.

Rick

Did I say keepers? redface.gif graemlins/clonk.gif I meant seats. I was thinking about keepers and retainers at the same time as I was writing. The retainers are different styles on the intake and exhaust valve for some reason. Thanks for clarifying that about the valve grinding.

487X is a 74cc head instead of the regular 76cc. A little more compression but not much.

Thanks Larry!

I was also reading that not all of them have 2.02/1.60 valves and the intake ports flow 10 more cfm than the regulars. I just found that. Anyone know what the smaller valve 487X heads are worth a piece assembled?

I cleaned the 487X head up and let it sit in the parts cooker for while to try to clean off the carbon. Took it out of their and did some more cleaning with a die grinder and a wire wheel. Found a crack between an intake and exhaust seat. It looks to be deeper than the surface. I talked to a guy that says a guy could repair it though. I also miked the valves. They are 1.94/1.50 valves.

I also found out some more info about the 416 58cc heads that I bought off ebay. I emailed the guy and here's what he wrote. "They flow about 4 CFM less than a set of camel hump castings right about 205 cfm @ .525 lift. chamber size is 64cc, intake runner size is about 175 to 180 cc. These heads are not in stock form after all the work has been done to them. They have been modified extremley compared to stock form. Stock HP was from 195 to 250 depending on application. They can far surpass this HP with the modifications done to them. They came on many cars and trucks so to give you a specific would not help any."

How can they make a bigger chamber on a head?

416,s are a 305 head I am pretty sure. If they have 1.94 valves installed they were hogged out. Not a very good performance head really. I would pass on them.

Thanks Larry!

Yes they are 1980-85 305 heads. Just took a look at my cousins 1981 305 that i'm getting for free, it's got the 416's on it. These heads have 2.02/1.60 valves, they have been unshrouded and bowl hogged, etc. No porting at all. So far I can't tell if they perform well on my car because the exhaust and carburetor is choking the engine as well as the high gears are putting an excessive load on the engine. Hopefully tomorrow I can figure out which rearend I have so I can find some lower gears to put in it. 3.55's would be nice but you can only get them for a 10 bolt if you have the 8.2 ring gear. It look like the cover on my rearend is for a 8.5 10 bolt.

Just got another reply back from the guy. "They start out as 58cc heads. To put in the larger 2.02/1.60 valves, you have to deshroud the chamber(take material out) this makes the chamber bigger. It averages 63 to 64 cc when all said and done. Like I said, these are no where near what they were in the begining after all the machining is done. They are a totally different head." The guy seems to be pretty proud of them but it doesn't seem like anyone else has ordered any from him besides me. You never see any bids on his auctions for these heads; he sells them in dutch auctions.

Do you think that I should keep them and throw them on the 305 or sell them and use the money to get some Camel Humps, Vortecs, or SR Torquers? I've been watching over the camel back auctions lately so I might go that route. Anyone know what I could get for these heads if I would sell them? I paid like $365 for them and i've only put 300 miles tops on them.

I've mentioned this before, and I'll point it out a gain. The 1974 and earlier SB Chev heads are the ONLY good heads in regards to PRODUCTION heads. This DOES NOT include the over-the-counter performance heads (i.e. Bowtie heads). In 1975, Chev began cutting corners on their SB heads by casting them thinner is some areas and completely eliminating metal in some areas. And by 77, for practical purposes, they were nearly papershell castings. The 487 castings fall into the 74-earlier catagory. They were among the "good" heads. Also, ANY casting which was produced with 1.94/1.5 valves could easily be opened up with 2.02/1.6 valves. On some of the 71-74 open chamber (76cc) heads, which DO NOT have the factory induction hardened ex seats, hardened seats can be installed. BUUUUUUUUUUUUUT---------BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!-------------IT IS VERY POSSIBLE THAT EVEN THE VERY BEST AND MOST EXPERIENCED HEAD MACHINIST MIGHT ACCIDENTLY CUT INTO THE WATER JACKET WHEN CUTTING FOR THE INSTALLATION OF A HARDENED SEAT!!!!! It's a 50/50 proposition.
Now, if you have one of these 30+yr old heads, AND IT HAS A CRACK, it CAN be repaired, but, your money would be better invested in a pair of aftermarket heads such as Dart/World.
TRUST ME, if you have ANY 75-later heads, EVEN IF THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY CRACKS when you take them to be machined, you will be skating on thin ice by spending your money on fixing them up-------------especially for performance purposes. AND PARTICULARLY IF YOU PLAN TO USE THEM ON A SB400!!!!
ANY factory, production 70-74 Chev head which will be used on a SB400 (remember, they are now 30+yrs old) is possibly going to also be marginal. In 35+yrs of building engines (30+ with SB400s), I have built 25-30 SB400s. All but 3 of the 400s got production heads. Two of the others got iron Darts and one got alum Trick Flows. But in the future, any SB400s which I build for myself will ONLY get aftermarket heads.
From my personal perspective, a well seasoned block is great for building a good engine---------------------------but NOT well seasoned heads (this strickly pertains to SB engines, BB heads don't seem to develop cracks as bad as SB heads do).

Thanks for your advice Tom! I know that you know what your talking about. And I plan on coming to you for advice when I build my next engine after i'm done with this engine. ;) Thought about another stroker combination, but this time going down in stroke instead of up. Maybe like a 377 instead of a 400 or a 327 instead of a 350. Heck, maybe i'll be able to find a 454 to rebuild or anothe big block. But I won't go to the dark side to stay. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I have nothing against aftermarket heads, it's just that they are so spendy. Granted they may help but I don't know if a guy would get their money back out of them. :D They're not figured in the budget right now. smile.gif I wouldn't feel so bad if you could buy a set of aftermarket heads and swap them around on each engine whenever you need it. That would be very time consuming and stupid though, so why did I even bring that up. :confused: I've been eying the Iron Eagles for awhile now, actually ever since I started getting into building engines. Maybe I should sell my antique tractors and buy a top-dollar pair of heads. But basically, this engine isn't about performance anymore. Heck, it never was. Or else I would have gotten some better brand name parts with better materials like forged instead of hypereutectic, 5340 instead of 5140, almuninum w/ tin and nickel instead of cast, and so on. It was basically a training aid for me to help me understand how stuff works and how to modify engines. That's why I want to build another engine. This engine can be my sort of dyno or toy engine and my next one can be a race engine that will take several years to build so that I get it right.

Another thing that I always wondered was why do some different types of racing classes only allow certain heads or parts?

The certain race classes which you mention, are some of the "stock" classes whereby the rules are making an attempt to keep the engine within a reasonable form of what was actually stock when built (ya, right!). An example of this, is the 2 1/2in Rams Horn ex manifolds which are still availale from Chev to allow some cars to comply with rules which require that cast iron manifolds to be used instead of headers. UNFORTUNATELY, these manifolds won't clear the Chevelle front cross member!
Based on what you have just mentioned, I would use a good set of stock 70-74 heads with 1.94/1.5 valves and 76cc chambers. Then open them up to 2.02 valve size and roll the dice and have hard ex seats installed. Now, here is where you have to make the call as far as how much you want to spend on them. If you want to run a cam with a lift bigger than .450, then you need to go the expense of screw-in studs. Guide plates would be an option, but not absolutely essential. Also, you could have the intake ports port matched with your intake manifold and have the bowls cleaned up (NOT a full port/polish). I would really recommend using stainless valves (shop the mail order houses for the best deal) and someone's in-house brand of roller tip rockers (such as Summit's). If you should put these heads on a SB400, don't forget to drill the steam holes. I personally have 2 SB400s with all these mods (the 70 conv and the 56 Vette) done to stock 71-73 400 heads and they have been great heads. My other SB400s have aftermarket heads.

Thanks Tom!

So would a 76cc head on a 377 to get 12:1 CR be better than a 64cc head on a 377 to get 12:1 CR? Just some numbers, nothing planned yet.

I also would like your opinion on which engine would be better for a race vehicle, a 327, a 377, or a big block? Keep in consideration the rpm range for the vehicles to get power.

Also what would be better for a pro-touring type of vehicle? Bored 350? 383?

Thanks