How strong is a super T-10? [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: How strong is a super T-10?


Meatball
Feb 28th, 11, 9:05 PM
I see them with two cases too, aluminum and iron, is one stronger? will a Super T-10 live behind my street 489? is it as strong as an M22 like I saw somone claim?

MEJ1990TM
Feb 28th, 11, 11:00 PM
From what I understand an iron case (stronger) with the 9310 gears are comparable to an M22. But a run of the mill OEM Super T-10 with an aluminum case will not take the abuse an M22 would all things being equal. Sure you take a brand new Super T and compare it to an M22 that's been abused for thirty years the Super T might last longer. But if you take two brand new transmissions the Super T will not hang with the M22 for very long behind a big block with a lot of torque and sticky tires.

whitey70ss
Mar 1st, 11, 5:46 PM
I would have to disagree with you about the M-22 being stronger. I think if your gonna run street tires and NO slicks you'll be fine with either one. What rear gear are you gonna run?

70GS455
Mar 1st, 11, 5:58 PM
Also get the iron mid-plate, it's stronger

MEJ1990TM
Mar 1st, 11, 6:52 PM
I would have to disagree with you about the M-22 being stronger. I think if your gonna run street tires and NO slicks you'll be fine with either one. What rear gear are you gonna run?

If that is the case then why didn't they put the 1st design Super T behind the LS5/LS6 Chevelles, L88 Vettes, and cars of that nature? Why was it the Super T-10's weren't put into GM cars until the power levels had dropped off so severely? I like Super T's, they are good transmissions. I ran a couple in my '71 for a while. But to say a Super T is stronger than a Muncie is laughable at best. I'm sorry, but when you are dealing with OEM stuff it just isn't so. I've heard of/seen several Super T's absolutely blow apart when they were being beat on. I've yet to see a Muncie do that. Sure they break, but I've yet to see one scatter it's guts like I've seen Super T's do.

Euell Florett
Mar 1st, 11, 9:51 PM
An iron case/9310 ST-10 has a major performance advantage over the M-22:

Available wide-ratio gearsets w/decent first gear ratios! :hurray:

mr 4 speed
Mar 1st, 11, 10:11 PM
You know what is stronger than an M22? A833 !!
Nice first gear ratios too

MEJ1990TM
Mar 1st, 11, 11:14 PM
You know what is stronger than an M22? A833 !!
Nice first gear ratios too

So is a Toploader. That's why I want to eventually put a Toploader in my Chevelle. But weren't talking about Mopar and Ford transmissions here. ;)

MEJ1990TM
Mar 1st, 11, 11:17 PM
An iron case/9310 ST-10 has a major performance advantage over the M-22:

Available wide-ratio gearsets w/decent first gear ratios! :hurray:

That may be true, but the severity of the close ratio Muncies 2.20 first gear is really over blown. Unless you are a drag racer a healthy big block with 3.31's out back will work just fine on the street with a 2.20. Anything above that is just icing on the cake.

65 Imp SS
Mar 2nd, 11, 10:25 AM
I would think that the iron case super t-10 would be an improvement over the non here is specs on the super t-10 http://www.richmondgear.com/07pdfs/RG25.pdf
PART NO. DESCRIPTION 1ST 2ND 3RD 4TH REV. TORQUE
1304000070 2.43 “S” Ratio 2.43 1.61 1.23 1.00 2.35 375 Ft. Lbs.
1304000069 2.64 “W” Ratio 2.64 1.75 1.34 1.00 2.55 325 Ft. Lbs.
7021090 2.64 “X” Ratio 2.64 1.60 1.23 1.00 2.55 325 Ft. Lbs.
1304000072 2.88 “CC” Ratio 2.88 1.91 1.33 1.00 2.78 300 Ft. Lbs.
Notice the tq ratings?
As for diff gear options Auto gear does make an m22w that have gear set ratio that is similar to the m20
http://www.5speeds.com/racing/m22ratios.html

Auto Gear M22 Derivatives for Muncie Transmissions
Designator
1st Gear
2nd Gear
3rd Gear
4th Gear

M22
2.199
1.640
1.274
1.000

M22W
2.559
1.752
1.366
1.000

M22X
2.199
1.506
1.174
1.000

M22Y
2.199
1.506
1.000
0.859





and also they have a new release of an m22z
http://www.autogear.net/whatsnew.php

AUTO GEAR COMPANY, INC. of Syracuse, New York is pleased to announce their latest alternative gearset for General Motor's iconic Muncie four-speed. The 'M22Z' (ratios 2.984/2.043/1.468/1.000) was designed to provide 'cruisers' an alternative to expensive overdrives. According to the company's Chief Engineer, George Sollish, "Now Muncie drivers can have the highway rpms of a fast axle without changing their gearbox. In addition, when paired with a 3.08 axle the M22Z gearset provides the same 1/2 punch of our successful M22W/3.54 combo, so there's no embarassment leaving a light, either. And like all our gearsets, the M22Z can be used in original equipment cases. We're also looking at older Jeeps -- they've used Muncies for years but have never had the 2.98 low we offer before now."

I would sure like to know more about the top loader conversion and the A833 converion
Steven

Meatball
Mar 2nd, 11, 11:53 AM
Great discussion guys! I have to ask though, what's an A833?

Randy 67EC
Mar 2nd, 11, 12:56 PM
A833 is the Mopar 4-speed from the 60s-70s, pretty stout cast iron case transmission.

mrpaticular
Mar 2nd, 11, 1:49 PM
I ran S-T10's for years in my chevelle with a 440, centerforce dual friction, 456 gear, and sticky tires. I broke a few. The weak point for me was where the main shaft and the first gear come together. The needle bearings would mess up resulting in a new input shaft and first gear. These parts are getting hard to find. Just for cruising with treaded street tires one could live a long time.

dreis454
Mar 2nd, 11, 5:24 PM
BUT.....which trans SOUNDS cooler?YouTube - 68 Chevelle M22 (audio) WHOA!! I though I was driving my car for a second!:D

MEJ1990TM
Mar 2nd, 11, 8:05 PM
BUT.....which trans SOUNDS cooler?YouTube - 68 Chevelle M22 (audio) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWjcgP-MeaI) WHOA!! I though I was driving my car for a second!:D

The funny thing about M22's is I've driven cars with three different Rock Crushers. They all sound just a little different. But they all three sound equally as sweet. :hurray:

MEJ1990TM
Mar 2nd, 11, 8:09 PM
This makes me kind of wonder. Are the M22's so valuable mostly because of the noise they made, or is it indeed the applications they were used in? The A833 and Toploader are both stronger transmissions, but they don't bring the money an M22 will. Obviously the big block Toploaders ,and Hemi A833's, are exceptions.

Euell Florett
Mar 3rd, 11, 7:22 PM
Rather use a wide-ratio ST-10 over a M-21/M-22 any/every day of the week, hands down, a million-to-one. :yes:

That being said, wouldn't want to use any of these three, period. :noway:


But, if forced, it'd be the wide-ratio (w/iron case/9310 gears) ST-10 by far, for sure. They can withstand a fairly potent SBC. :thumbsup:

MEJ1990TM
Mar 3rd, 11, 8:52 PM
That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. That does not change the fact the Muncie platform is quite a bit stronger than your average Super T-10. Super T's can live behind potent big blocks, Muncies were put behind potent big blocks. I don't understand how the strength can be drawn into question. That being said with how a lot of people drive these cars it really doesn't matter as long as the tires remain the weak link. Have you seen the input gear on those 3.42 Super T's? The thing is tiny.

novadude
Mar 4th, 11, 9:56 AM
I think there was a good disussion on this a while back. It seems that the ST-10 has some inherent weakness in the way the midplate attaches to the maincase. From what I recall of ST-10s, the Muncie has a few more bolts holding the mid-plate to the highly stressed rear section of the case, which helps stabilize the whole deal and keep it from spreading.

Iron case ST-10 w/ iron midplate is probably a bit stronger compared to factory aluminum Muncie stuff. The aftermarket Muncie case w/ iron midplate seems like it might give the Muncie a slight edge.

MEJ1990TM
Mar 4th, 11, 6:51 PM
The Muncie has all six bolts going through the tail housing into the main case. The Super T-10 only has three that do this. There are two bolts that go from the tail housing into the mid plate.

MEJ1990TM
Mar 4th, 11, 7:12 PM
OK I'll give my opinion and facts.. Based on stock Muncies and ST10's.



Its hard to compare units that are old. So don't run out and purchase one over the other because there is no way you can measure the life factor of one used trans over another used trans regardless of what is deemed stronger. Also Iron cased ST10 units purchased over the counter or built by Tex Racing with 9310 Nickle gears where very strong boxes and would be stronger than a Muncie comparing new to new.. You can no longer get these any more.



Muncie M22's never came with 9310 gears. The factory prints state a variant of 8620. Yes I have factory prints.



T10's in production GM cars both T10 and ST10 where used during years where HP levels were significantly lower than years where the Muncie was used.. Forget torque ratings. GM used transmissions based on intended use. The ST10 was used from 1975 to 1982 and then in the 1984 to 1988 Corvette. What was the highest Horse power car used during those years?



Structurely the ST10 is a piece of crap. Don't believe me? If you are an experienced rebuilder I am sure you have seen many ST10's blow 1st gear AND split the case wide open. Don't believe LOOK at the rear section. A Muncie has 6 bolts that fasten the tail to the midsection and case. The ST10 tail has only 3 thru bolts and 2 bolts that bolt to the bottom mid section. The mid section has a bolt to the case.



The Muncie gearset is on the same center as the T10 set and is bigger. A Muncie cluster is about 1/4" longer than an ST10 piece. The 2.20 ratio gearset has almost a 1 to 1 head set ratio ( 1.03 ). Read up on your theory to understand that.



The M22 semi Helical gears - stronger



The Larger shift cones of the Muncie = faster shifts.



The rear mainshaft bearing of the Muncie FYI was the largest rear bearing used in ANY production 4 speed. The Hemi A833 used a similar one but was slightly narrow.



The new Spec25 Muncie style boxes I build for road racing have replaced many ST10 boxes in 600HP applications because they just don't break and are used where synchros are needed for class rules.

Here is the post Paul made in a thread I made a while back about this very same topic.

Meatball
Mar 5th, 11, 12:20 PM
Great information here. In reality, it sounds as though a ST-10 iron cased would work out for my application. I havent 'raced' on the street in about 20 years and dont plan to, I dont plan to drag race with the car I just want a 4 speed. I dont plan on using anythign other than maybe Radial T/A's or the current Cooper's nothing uber sticky. I do like the occasional burn out but I think the lack of traction will be the weak link in the chain. I am hoping the engine makes ~ 450 horse but looking for more like 500Tq, Seems very reachable with the information I have gathered in other threads. Thanks for all the time and effort you guys put into hashing out the good and bad points of the more common trannies available.

One question I didnt answer in the beginning is rear end ratio, it is a 3:31.

MEJ1990TM
Mar 5th, 11, 6:38 PM
With a 3.31 gear I think you should be safe with a 2.64 box. Its stronger than the 2.88/3.42 transmissions and still gives a decent first gear. The only thing I will say is Super T's were not designed for that kind of power. Even without sticky tires there is still a chance to scatter it if dropping the hammer and doing a lot of speed shifting.

TD509EFI
Mar 7th, 11, 6:38 PM
" Structurely the ST10 is a piece of crap. Don't believe me? If you are an experienced rebuilder I am sure you have seen many ST10's blow 1st gear AND split the case wide open. Don't believe LOOK at the rear section. A Muncie has 6 bolts that fasten the tail to the midsection and case. The ST10 tail has only 3 thru bolts and 2 bolts that bolt to the bottom mid section. The mid section has a bolt to the case."

From what I see on my St10, the tailhousing has five bolts that go through the rear main bearing retainer from the tailhousing, and a total of four bolts that go from the bearing retainer / tailhousing to the main case. One is hidden under the rear idler gear.

John

1967ragtop138674speed
Mar 7th, 11, 6:42 PM
i have early design super t-10 that is cast iron with 3:44 low gear. Nobody takes me out of the hole! A 2:20 was only available with 4:10 or lower, they suck to drive on the street trust me have had 2. my t-10 has nickle gears but 7/8 pin. the m-22 have a 1 inch pin which helps them

MEJ1990TM
Mar 7th, 11, 8:03 PM
i have early design super t-10 that is cast iron with 3:44 low gear. Nobody takes me out of the hole! A 2:20 was only available with 4:10 or lower, they suck to drive on the street trust me have had 2. my t-10 has nickle gears but 7/8 pin. the m-22 have a 1 inch pin which helps them

Uhhhhhhh, no. The '70 came from the factory with an M22 and 3.31 12 bolot posi. For a street car it drives off just fine. So which would you take, a 2.20/3.73 combo or a 2.52/3.08?