After reading some of Jim's (540Hotrod) posts about the Holley HP EFI System, I have been contemplating a move to the Dark Side for the Baby Rat. Something about being able to reach in and turn the key to fire up a stone cold performance motor has peaked my intrest along with the fact the computer does all the tuning in different climate conditions and altitudes. My problem is I don't know where to start with what I would need (total NOOB to EFI).

Can someone school me on where to start (cam, ignition etc.)?
I was looking at this based on some of the posts I've beed reading.
http://www.holley.com/550-835.asp

Current specs (99% street driven):
408 Cu. In. (.060 over 396)
2 bolt mains w/ ARP studs
Comp. Cams custom Hyd. Roller (billet w/ cast gear)
292/300, 242/248, .621/.615, 108 lsa
Morel Hyd. roller lifters
Brodix RR Oval Port heads 270.0 Int. w/ CNC option angle milled 10.3 comp.
2.25 Int. / 1.88 Exh. Stainless Valves 10* Titanium retainers
Comp. 977 Springs
Jesel Sportsman Shaft rockers 1.7 / 1.7
Edelbrock dual plane Air Gap intake
ProSystems 780 DP w/ 1.0" Wilson open spacer
MSD Pro Billet dist. w/ GM gear & Didgital 6 box
1.750" primary headers
Aeromotive A1000 Fuel Pump
Aeromotive Pump Controller
1/2" Feed & Return Hard Lines
18 Gal. Fuel Safe Sportsman Cell w/ surge tank

Holly crap dude I thought you meant you were getting a Ford. You scared me!:D

I thought the dark side was a black turbocharged Buick :confused: ;)

Holly crap dude I thought you meant you were getting a Ford. You scared me!:D


LOL..... No, for me the Dark Side is a scary unfamilliar world of EFI :confused: I've always been Old Scool and thought I was to old to learn new tricks but some of the guys here are starting to have a bad influence on me :D

as indicated by the price, that's a fairly elaborate system. I sort of doubt you need all the capabilities for a 99% street car. Unless you're planning to get into NO2, other power adders, racing a lot with different configs, etc.

And another ones comes over! Hey...it took me a long time too!

How much vacuum does that cam hold? It's a pretty stout one. But I don't think it's a problem really.

As mentioned, just depends on how far you want to go with it later on. That is the HP system. The regular Avenger can do a lot..but the HP really allows you to have some fun.

I'm sure Doug F will jump in here and give some guidance.

JIM

And another ones comes over! Hey...it took me a long time too!

How much vacuum does that cam hold? It's a pretty stout one. But I don't think it's a problem really.

As mentioned, just depends on how far you want to go with it later on. That is the HP system. The regular Avenger can do a lot..but the HP really allows you to have some fun.

I'm sure Doug F will jump in here and give some guidance.

JIM

Thanks for chiming in Jim. Like I mentioned earlier I'm unfamilliar with the different EFI packages out there. The HP system is the first one I looked at and I liked all the features for future growth on a bigger motor. Haven't had a chance to look at the lower end Holley stuff yet. I like to start by looking at the top shelf stuff first then work my way down to reality.

What Vacuum :D It's right around the 6'' range @ Idle 900. I had told Mike when he built the motor I wouldn't need vacuum for the brakes (running a Hydoboost). Motor runs really, really good now with a carb, just seriously looking at what EFI may do for me based off some of the comments you've made about your combination.



Hope Doug will jump in and offer a NOOB some advice.

as indicated by the price, that's a fairly elaborate system. I sort of doubt you need all the capabilities for a 99% street car. Unless you're planning to get into NO2, other power adders, racing a lot with different configs, etc.


I disagree. Having gone from a Carb to EFI some time ago (almost 10 years now) and using a FAST EFI first Gen I can tell you that I can do things like use a single plane high rise manifold and have zero problems starting in cold weather. The drivability is much better with more radical cams than you would have with a carb too.

Tuning on a dyno through a keyboard is a lot easier than changing jets.

You don't get more peak HP but better broad band performance.

Ron

Mike, what kind of trans do you have? With that big of a cam, it might not have good low speed drivability with a stick.

Jim, does your Vette buck at low speed high gear driving?

Depends on how you define low speed? I've got 3.07 gears and 28" tires and it will lug down to 2000 rpm in 5th gear pretty well. But that's about 54 mph!!

So to keep in the 30-40 mph range I'm in 4th usually which is underdrive on my trans. 2000 rpm in 4th is about 37-38 mph.

Not too many stick guys use 3.07 gears!!

It's a still a pretty thumpy cam, but most folks are amazed at how smooth it is really for the size of it. Bob (540 Olds) was over the other day and was surprised at how it idled.

If I took 10-15* of timing off the cam it would sound like a pickup truck!

JIM

Mike, what kind of trans do you have? With that big of a cam, it might not have good low speed drivability with a stick.


Currently running a TH400 but the new configuration I am planning is a 200R4.


I disagree. Having gone from a Carb to EFI some time ago (almost 10 years now) and using a FAST EFI first Gen I can tell you that I can do things like use a single plane high rise manifold and have zero problems starting in cold weather. The drivability is much better with more radical cams than you would have with a carb too.

Tuning on a dyno through a keyboard is a lot easier than changing jets.

You don't get more peak HP but better broad band performance.

Ron


Ron, I think Tom was refering to the Holley HP system's extra capabilities VS. the Holley Avenger System. As I understand it, the HP system is more taylored to it's racing capabilities and has a lot more features I probably wouldn't need for the street. I'm thinking about future needs as I'm looking into whats available though. I tend to go overkill on most everything I do on my Chevelle though.

The HP and Avenger ECU's themselves are the same. The difference being the Avenger comes with a handheld tuner (no laptop needed) and doesn't allow access to the deeper features and more detailed tuning. Designed for the person "scared" of a laptop.

All you need to do is plug a usb cable into the avenger and you have an "HP" ECU and access to finite tuning and the extra features.

Currently running a TH400 but the new configuration I am planning is a 200R4.




You should be good then.

Other than the height of the intake, you should love it!

man, keep it simple and keep your carb. I have efi but only because Im forced induction.

if I were building a healthy NA motor, I would throw a carb on it

The HP and Avenger ECU's themselves are the same. The difference being the Avenger comes with a handheld tuner (no laptop needed) and doesn't allow access to the deeper features and more detailed tuning. Designed for the person "scared" of a laptop.

All you need to do is plug a usb cable into the avenger and you have an "HP" ECU and access to finite tuning and the extra features.


Hi Doug, Thanks for chiming in. Sounds like the HP system is the one for me based off your comments. The only scarry thing for me is if I would loose power based off what I am already running. Can you reccomend a complete system based off my combination in my first post? I'm thinking I'd like to go with a distributerless ignition and I'd like to stay with my current cam if possible. I'm also ready to re-wire the entire car and I'm looking at a AAW Classic Update Kit.

Questions:
* Injector size
* Ignition & wiring requirements needed
* Can I stay with my current cam
* Will my current fuel system componants work
* Does the HP System run off 1 or 2 O2 sensors (my exhaust is already set up for 2)
* Does the HP ECU trigger duel cooling fans or do I need to run a seperate controller

Motor runs really, really good now with a carb, just seriously looking at what EFI may do for me based off some of the comments you've made about your combination.







Ahh, never mind

Answers

*48lb injectors would be my choice (est~550hp)
*Holley DIS kit includes the ignition adapter harness and ecu to coil harness. You will need the 60-2 Crank Trigger Kit and Cam Sync to complete the conversion.
*Yes, your camshaft does not change with EFI
*HP utilizes 1 WBO2 sensor...may be installed in either bank...plug the other.
*Yes, the HP ECU is setup to trigger (2) fans and different temperatures if desired.

As for a complete kit. The system your looking at is a good choice but, the intake should have quality porting to make it a good fit for your application. Let me know if you have any addtional questions.

Thanks Dennis, I have been reading a few other posts with guys running the Holley system and I'm VERY impressed with the results everyone is seeing. I'm really close to pulling the trigger on this. Just need to start price shopping and digging up specific part numbers for everything I need at this point. Are there any fuel system changes that I would need based on what I am currently running?

Thanks Dennis, I have been reading a few other posts with guys running the Holley system and I'm VERY impressed with the results everyone is seeing. I'm really close to pulling the trigger on this. Just need to start price shopping and digging up specific part numbers for everything I need at this point. Are there any fuel system changes that I would need based on what I am currently running?

Any reason for the DIS? It is a nice setup, but for a mild engine like yours, you could run your digital 6 with a small cap HEI for a simple setup. As Dennis said, you'll want to port the intake. We are getting the tooling changed on it, but it will take a bit of time to complete that.

Your current fuel system is way more than you'd need even. Just need an EFI return regulator.

Any reason for the DIS? It is a nice setup, but for a mild engine like yours, you could run your digital 6 with a small cap HEI for a simple setup. As Dennis said, you'll want to port the intake. We are getting the tooling changed on it, but it will take a bit of time to complete that.


Hi Doug,
I've been comparing the differences between using my Digital 6 w/ small cap GM HEI and the DIS. I'm leaning towards the DIS because of it's simplicity (no extra box to wire in) and for future expandability when I decide to build a 555 as well as all the other advantages it offers. Are the ports on the manifold really that rough or mismatched? Not really a deal breaker but it does kinda lower my expectations :(

They're definatly on the small side and most people get in there and open them up to a port match.

One thing you'll like about crank triggered igntion is the timing accuracy. It's rock steady. When we switched from distributor/msd 6 to Holley's DIS...the plugs looked abit cleaner.

IF you need to look up pn's... http://mooreracecraft.com/fuelinjection.html

They're definatly on the small side and most people get in there and open them up to a port match.

One thing you'll like about crank triggered igntion is the timing accuracy. It's rock steady. When we switched from distributor/msd 6 to Holley's DIS...the plugs looked abit cleaner.

IF you need to look up pn's... http://mooreracecraft.com/fuelinjection.html (http://mooreracecraft.com/fuelinjection.html)


WOW, Thanks for the link and advice on the porting. You guys are awesome for taking the time to educate me :beers:

Dennis or Doug, couple questions for ya.
* What comes in the 556-101 DIS Kit and should the Trigger Wheel be the same size as the Damper?
* Does the 550-835 EFI Kit include the O2 Sensor?

The 556-101 kit includes the coil packs, cam/crank igniton harness, ecu to coil harness and hall effect sensor. The trigger wheel is 8 1/2" and is provided in the 556-103 BBC Crank Sensor mounting kit.

Yes, the 550-835 EFI system includes the Bosch WBO2 sensor.

The 556-101 kit includes the coil packs, cam/crank igniton harness, ecu to coil harness and hall effect sensor. The trigger wheel is 8 1/2" and is provided in the 556-103 BBC Crank Sensor mounting kit.

Yes, the 550-835 EFI system includes the Bosch WBO2 sensor.


Dennis, I noticed that there are different size 60-2 Trigger Wheels listed on your site and was wondering what size I needed for a 6" Damper. I need the extra clearance if it's possible to go smaller.

The mounting kits for SBC/BBC are designed to work with the 8 1/2" trigger wheel diameter. Anything smaller would require a the sensor mounting bracket to be fabricaticated and a wheel roughly 1/2" larger than your balancer to ensure the pickup can read the teeth properly.

There are 6 1/2 wheels available...just need to do a little searching. They usually require machining the -2 missing teeth into them. The bracket needs to be very sturdy aswell. Also...you can run a typical 4-0 Magnetic trigger if you find something in a suitable diameter.

The mounting kits for SBC/BBC are designed to work with the 8 1/2" trigger wheel diameter. Anything smaller would require a the sensor mounting bracket to be fabricaticated and a wheel roughly 1/2" larger than your balancer to ensure the pickup can read the teeth properly.

There are 6 1/2 wheels available...just need to do a little searching. They usually require machining the -2 missing teeth into them. The bracket needs to be very sturdy aswell. Also...you can run a typical 4-0 Magnetic trigger if you find something in a suitable diameter.


Thanks Dennis, I think I can get by with the 556-108 (7-3/4" 60-2 Trigger Wheel). The 8-1/2 " would cause me a couple problems.

The smaller trigger wheels are predrilled with 1" pilot hole and require the remaining mounting pattern to be finished. A very solid sensor mounting bracket must also be fabricated. We maintain ~.030 sensor to pickup clearance.

The smaller trigger wheels are predrilled with 1" pilot hole and require the remaining mounting pattern to be finished. A very solid sensor mounting bracket must also be fabricated. We maintain ~.030 sensor to pickup clearance.


Thanks for the heads up on that. Drilling the Trigger Wheel mounting holes and fabricating a solid Sensor mounting bracket should not be a problem. I can get that done at a freinds machine shop. Any other tips for the sensor and trigger wheel mounting I need to know? I will try to stay close to the mounting design that comes in the 556-103 kit that I will order as well. I really appreciate all your help Dennis. Thank You :thumbsup:

I've got the big wheel on mine and it clears a PS pump, short water pump etc. There are a couple of different brackets available from Holley. One mounts sensor a little lower than the other. Might take a little grinding on the brackets, but they are nice. In my Vette, the sensor was very close to the frame (Vette's are weird). I used a couple different screws that mount sensor bracket to main bracket and allowed me to move it upwards a little more. The Holley software allows for a little *offset* in case you aren't able to align things perfectly in the static condition. Mine now uses a 7* timing offset and works perfect plus gives me plenty of clearance.

Remember, you'll need something like an 1/8" washer behind some of the brackets to move things out to align with the pulleys with the wheel behind the crank pulley.

JIM

I've got the big wheel on mine and it clears a PS pump, short water pump etc. There are a couple of different brackets available from Holley. One mounts sensor a little lower than the other. Might take a little grinding on the brackets, but they are nice. In my Vette, the sensor was very close to the frame (Vette's are weird). I used a couple different screws that mount sensor bracket to main bracket and allowed me to move it upwards a little more. The Holley software allows for a little *offset* in case you aren't able to align things perfectly in the static condition. Mine now uses a 7* timing offset and works perfect plus gives me plenty of clearance.

Remember, you'll need something like an 1/8" washer behind some of the brackets to move things out to align with the pulleys with the wheel behind the crank pulley.

JIM


Thanks Jim. Actually I have a thin machined spacer between my damper and bottom pulley to get things lined up now. I'm hoping that the Trigger Wheel thickness won't be much different than the spacer but you know how things like that go.:pout:

Are there any photos anywhere of spark plug wire routing with the DIS system?

Which DIS? GM coils or Holley? I have my coils mounted on the splash pans behind the front tires (55 Chevy). I ran mine underthe headers (turbo car) and the ones that had to crossover to the other side are run across my crossmember below the oil pan. They're a tad on the long side but, MSD wires are only 50 ohms/ft so they work perfect.