Wanna start by thanking Doug F., been very nice to me answering all my questions and steering me in the right direction. Thanks Doug!

We'll, it's partially installed ;). Been pretty busy, so I can only do a bit at a time. The ECU is pretty small, gonna mount it up front in the driver side fender as there's a nice little "pocket" pretty much under the heads lights. Kinda like where the battery is, only on the other side. This kit comes with everything including 48lbs injectors, fuel pump, w/b sensor, and best of all, a small littl hand held controller that can make basic adjustments, shows some of the engines vitals, and can make changes to rev limiter, idle speed, AFR for idle/cruise/WOT.

This is a self-tuning system. Can hook up a laptop and really make adjustments if you want. Hope to have her running with in a week or so. Waiting on a small cap HEI and coil from a salvage yard, as this system has a plug and play feature for it.

Tell you what, I'm just impressed with the fact that I can adjust the idle speed from the drivers seat!!!!

Hood clearance is tight with my 69. Will use my modified drop base air cleaner base that sits lower, should be able to still run a 3" filter, if not, something like a 2.75" filter will clear easily.

Will post updates.

PS - this all started b/c I bought a wideband AFR meter for use with my carb!!!

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2723.jpg?t=1280403662


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2725.jpg?t=1280403690

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2726.jpg?t=1280403719

Vince I must have missed a few post because the last I read you were on the fence.....:yes:
Looking forward to how this progresses....Would your new controller handle a 4L85 as well?

Bill, definitley off the fence now. No, this wont control transmissions. You would need the Dominator ECU for that, and its a little more pricey. Being that I have a manual trans, was a non-issue for me.

Good stuff Vince....There is something to be said for instant starts. Ask any Harley guy what it did for them......:thumbsup:
Every time I began to look into heading that direction myself in the future, the fuel tank issues cropped up and overwhelmed me.....Being able to talk with Doug has to be a huge plus as well....Again I look forward to following this.......:beers:

Looks great, Vince! I'll be following this thread as well.

Interesting to hear your progress on this. All started with that AFR purchase, eh? Hmmm... Maybe I should just remove my sensor, although I'm finally getting my SV1 tuned in pretty close now.

I'm assuming that specific intake isn't required, right? I'd bet you could mill 1/2" off the top if it became absolutely necessary for hood clearance. Are you using an Extreme K&N lid? 2.75" filter might be a little on the small side.

Saw it first hand. Looks nice. Took a good look around, had an ice cold brew, got the full in-person tutorial on all the functions and tuning capability. Knowing how Vince works, a lot of positives will come out of This conversion the EFI in terms of do's and don'ts.

Looks good. Vince, how much taller is that intake than Eddy rpm airgap? In the picture the throttle body looks a bit shorter than a 4150, is it?

Interesting to hear your progress on this. All started with that AFR purchase, eh? Hmmm... Maybe I should just remove my sensor, although I'm finally getting my SV1 tuned in pretty close now.

I'm assuming that specific intake isn't required, right? I'd bet you could mill 1/2" off the top if it became absolutely necessary for hood clearance. Are you using an Extreme K&N lid? 2.75" filter might be a little on the small side.

Best thing you can do is get rid of that AFR meter as soon as possible...look where I ended up b/c of it :D. Milling the intake would be a little tough as there is a manifold air temp sensor in the intake, almost into the carb pad. It would have to be removed, hole welded-up, then milled. Not much carb pad to begin with anyway, so the shorter filter (if even needed) is MUCH easier. Being that the throttle body is pretty smooth, I doubt it will have much impact on total flow anyway on the street. Race day, can always remove the filter.


Looks good. Vince, how much taller is that intake than Eddy rpm airgap? In the picture the throttle body looks a bit shorter than a 4150, is it?

Alot taller! Its taller than the Victor Jr. The only saving grace here is yes - the TB is about an inch shorter than a carb. If it wasnt, I'd have major issues.

Interesting to hear your progress on this. All started with that AFR purchase, eh? Hmmm... Maybe I should just remove my sensor, although I'm finally getting my SV1 tuned in pretty close now.

I'm assuming that specific intake isn't required, right? I'd bet you could mill 1/2" off the top if it became absolutely necessary for hood clearance. Are you using an Extreme K&N lid? 2.75" filter might be a little on the small side.

Intake can not be milled. Mounting flange is only about 1/4" thick. It's either a raised hood or a drop base air cleaner.

I knew you'd bite! You were too close not to.

Come on Vince, a small cap is only $150 & a coil shouldn't be too much more. Everything else is new...buy all new stuff. Joe came over, you gave him a beer and he talked you into some used stuff...geez! :)

Why the Avenger over the HP?

What are your fuel delivery plans?

He talked himself into the used distributor. Only thing I bartered into was a beer!

I knew you'd bite! You were too close not to.

Come on Vince, a small cap is only $150 & a coil shouldn't be too much more. Everything else is new...buy all new stuff. Joe came over, you gave him a beer and he talked you into some used stuff...geez! :)

Why the Avenger over the HP?

What are your fuel delivery plans?


Too late! I bought a used distrib and coil for 50.00 shipped from a salvage yard. Reason being is that #1, I'm cheap. #2...I need the wiring pigtail from the distrib to the coil itself, and whatever mounting brackets, screws, etc come with the coil. I have no idea how to get those items w/o going to the dealer...which in itself is a PIA.

Dirty secret is, the Avenger an HP are the same ;). The Avenger comes with this nifty handheld that gets you going by asking basic questions, allows some basic adjustments, and engine running statistics. Seems to be some paranoia regarding the word LAPTOP evidently, so the Avenger eliminates that need. But ulimately, you can hook up to a laptop/desktop and "get in there".

Fuel system...probably gonna sump the tank and look into a surge tank. Still deciding on that one.

Still trying to decide where to mount the ECU. Would like it in the car, but dont think I have enough wiring. Need to do some more mearsuring.

I'm thinking of doing the same EFI kit. A few questions Vince?
1. Can the fuel path on the rails be reversed so that the input and return are at the front of the engine?
2. Is there a port on the TB for the brake booster?
3. If you mount the ECU on the core support, is the wiring harness long enough to hide in the left fender or does it need to route forward from the TB?

I'm thinking of doing the same EFI kit. A few questions Vince?
1. Can the fuel path on the rails be reversed so that the input and return are at the front of the engine?
2. Is there a port on the TB for the brake booster?
3. If you mount the ECU on the core support, is the wiring harness long enough to hide in the left fender or does it need to route forward from the TB?


Good questions Mike, and I'm dealing with each of those issues right now.

1 - Yes..in fact (hope Doug sees this and confirms), you can flip these around. There's a shradder valve on the front... I'd like to move it to the rear and mount the fuel sending unit there rather than the front, just dont think it looks good up there.

2 - NO!!!!! ARGGGGHHHH!!! I realized right after I installed the intake there is no power brake port!!!! I will have to drill and tap or press in a nipple. Wish I caught this before hand. Not a big deal...just need the shop vac handy. The TB does have a port in the front for a PCV or PB...you can see it in the pic.

3- Core support...if you run the wires straight to the MPI unit..it will make it. The problem is that if you want to run the wires along side of either fender to make it look nice...this is where I'm running into issues as the harness is just a little short to "square-up" nicely. Gonna look out for other mounting points. Think today I'll look into the glove box, or behind it.

That's why I've been waiting. The knowledge from people is more valuable than any sales brochures. Dirty secret is right! I hate when companies do that. The company that I used to work for played those little games with its customers. The customers couldn't trust our company after playing little games with its product offerings, and as a result, they lost their main customer and my company was forced to close its doors.

I can see trying to use the laptop with certain features blocked because of purchasing the less expensive Avenger. Now there is an aspect of trust with Holley, but it's still probably the best kit out there IMO.

So...you get more with the Avenger? Is the available I/O the same?

Now I have to look at the Avenger instead of the HP. Thanks for the heads up Vince!

Mark

Its not that Holley has a hidden agenda or anything with the "Avenger" line, there's just a market need. I bet there was some round table discussions at Holley regarding this whole laptop "problem". For some reason, that word must scare people off from getting in EFI. Yet, these same folks are on the internet doing things that are much more complicated. In the end its a good thing for us, b/c they developed this handheld that we get to play with for basic things rather than drag a laptop out to see some of this stuff :thumbsup:

I'll probably do a Youtube video of the handheld.

I mean really, adjusting the idle speed from the drivers seat, come on :hurray:

That's why I've been waiting. The knowledge from people is more valuable than any sales brochures. Dirty secret is right! I hate when companies do that. The company that I used to work for played those little games with its customers. The customers couldn't trust our company after playing little games with its product offerings, and as a result, they lost their main customer and my company was forced to close its doors.

I can see trying to use the laptop with certain features blocked because of purchasing the less expensive Avenger. Now there is an aspect of trust with Holley, but it's still probably the best kit out there IMO.

So...you get more with the Avenger? Is the available I/O the same?

Now I have to look at the Avenger instead of the HP. Thanks for the heads up Vince!

Mark

I'll comment on this. Vince summed it up but here is the deal. I'm very well versed in the total EFI marketplace, having dealt with EFI for almost 2 decades. FAST came out with the EZ EFI, a product I've wanted to do for quite a while since I saw the need, but never had the resources to do so until we've released this Avenger product along with the HP and Dominator systems. The TYPICAL (not all but trust me most) "EZ EFI" or Avenger customer is very scared of EFI tuning, many are very scared of computers, but there are those that want to enjoy the benefits of EFI. For this customer the word "laptop" is a dirty word they run from. They want an "easy" to use system with NO laptop.

The Avenger and HP systems use the same ECU. The harnesses are the same, everything. The differentiating factor is the handheld tuner that comes with the Avenger. It replaces the need for a laptop with a very simple to use device anyone can be successful at using. However you are much more limited to what you can tune vs a laptop. This keeps most people out of trouble.

The HP systems are marketed as laptop tunable. This will completely turn off and eliminate a sale to the TYPICAL Avenger customer.

Hence the need for two "different" systems marketed to different targets.

If you marketed the Avenger product such that it can be laptop tuned, trust me, that will scare off many of those customers.

There are customers that find that to be a benefit. I'm not hiding that fact, but you have target markets you go after with product design and marketing.

The pricing is close, nothing is "trick or hidden there". The Avenger comes with the handheld increasing cost, also a fuel pump. The HP systems have no fuel pump and the MPFI HP systems have no injectors. These are for people that may have these components or want something different. The Avenger units are "complete".

So trust me, there is no hidden agenda. Just product targeted for specific markets.

The Avenger has LESS features (can't do nitrous, user programmable inputs/outputs, water meth injection, and more). The HP has more that are used via the laptop software.

Vince,

A follow up to your answers with more questions:
1. Looks like a port is also missing for vaccum advance? I suppose if one is going with EFI, might as well do the ignition control too with the small HEI disty and separate coil.
2. I looked at the cable harness and connectors shown in the manual. Seems like fairly standard automotive connectors with removable pins. Can't see the construction of the ECU mass connectors. Think it's possible to rebuild the harness with longer wires?
3. Another harness routing alternative is to go forward to join with the alternator harness, span over to the left inner fender and then to the core support. Think the ECU harness is long enough for that route?

BTW, thanks for posting your work.

this is very cool, and i have been thining about doing some sort of "cheap" junkyard EFI hybrid set up for my SB for a while now..

so im guessing there is no crank sensor? just uses the distributor? is this distributor like the crab style 96+ vortec ones, or the 80's TPI?

cant wait to see your results

aaron

So trust me, there is no hidden agenda. Just product targeted for specific markets.

The Avenger has LESS features (can't do nitrous, user programmable inputs/outputs, water meth injection, and more). The HP has more that are used via the laptop software.

Sorry Doug, I didn't think about the laptop scaring people. To me it's second nature to use a computer.

If the Avenger doesn't have programmable I/O, I think I'll stick with the HP. I was thinking that since the controller has a temp signal, I could turn on electric fans through the controller when the temp reached a certain set point. That’s doable isn’t it? The fans would shut off with the key then wouldn’t they?

Why doesn’t the intake have a vacuum port for power brakes? Is there a boss or some other place to install one?

Again, sorry for the misconception, but I’m a little sensitive to deviant marketing ploys since I lost a good job because of it.

Mark

Sorry Doug, I didn't think about the laptop scaring people. To me it's second nature to use a computer.

If the Avenger doesn't have programmable I/O, I think I'll stick with the HP. I was thinking that since the controller has a temp signal, I could turn on electric fans through the controller when the temp reached a certain set point. That’s doable isn’t it? The fans would shut off with the key then wouldn’t they?

Why doesn’t the intake have a vacuum port for power brakes? Is there a boss or some other place to install one?

Again, sorry for the misconception, but I’m a little sensitive to deviant marketing ploys since I lost a good job because of it.

Mark

The HP's I/O is fully user programmable to do anything you want with it. The Avenger has the I/O pre-configured for 2 cooling fan outputs and a WOT A/C shutdown. So you can do those features with it.

There is a larger vacuum port on the throttle body for brakes. You could add one to the intake if you wanted.

this is very cool, and i have been thining about doing some sort of "cheap" junkyard EFI hybrid set up for my SB for a while now..

so im guessing there is no crank sensor? just uses the distributor? is this distributor like the crab style 96+ vortec ones, or the 80's TPI?

cant wait to see your results

aaron

The Avenger can control timing via a small cap GM HEI. If not controlling timing you connect to the output on the CD box or if no CD box the negative side of the coil.

The HP software allows you to configure the ignition for a wide variety of options. You can run LSx COP, or other various systems with different crank and cam input options.

so im guessing there is no crank sensor? just uses the distributor? is this distributor like the crab style 96+ vortec ones, or the 80's TPI?

Its not the crab-style, although I was looking at it, but I didnt know enough about it. I know I'd have to change plug wires with that one though, so I just kept it simple.

Also, sequential may be an option for me at some point, so I didnt want to drop a whole lotta coin on this for the time being.

The HP's I/O is fully user programmable to do anything you want with it. The Avenger has the I/O pre-configured for 2 cooling fan outputs and a WOT A/C shutdown. So you can do those features with it.

There is a larger vacuum port on the throttle body for brakes. You could add one to the intake if you wanted.

Doug, only port I see is on the front, and I'm using that for the PVC. Is there another - I dont see one. Not a big deal either way.

Also Doug, the Holley site says that teh Avenger ECU is upgradeable to the HP...true? What involved - a laptop ;)

Its not the crab-style, although I was looking at it, but I didnt know enough about it. I know I'd have to change plug wires with that one though, so I just kept it simple.

Also, sequential may be an option for me at some point, so I didnt want to drop a whole lotta coin on this for the time being.



Doug, only port I see is on the front, and I'm using that for the PVC. Is there another - I dont see one. Not a big deal either way.

Also Doug, the Holley site says that teh Avenger ECU is upgradeable to the HP...true? What involved - a laptop ;)

You're right, if you use that for PCV there isn't another. Personally what I would do is remove the intake air temp sensor from the port in the back and use it for brakes. Then I'd mount the IAT sensor in the air cleaner or somewhere in engine compartment.

You're right, if you use that for PCV there isn't another. Personally what I would do is remove the intake air temp sensor from the port in the back and use it for brakes. Then I'd mount the IAT sensor in the air cleaner or somewhere in engine compartment.

THATS GENIUS! THANKS :thumbsup:

That issue is resolved. Will need to drop off that spun alum drop base. If it clears everything, there's more than enough metal in it to install the IAT sensor.

Got the ecu mounted, next to the batter actually, on the inner fender. Wire length was about perfect Biggest hassle here is going to be dealing with the aircleaner drop base. It hits the throttle bracket. Will have to fab something up to get the bracket lower than normal. The kit comes with a spacer thats about 3/4" high that lifts the air cleaner base up to clear. Man, between the real tall single plane intake and this spacer, you almost need a cowl hood to fit everything up as designed.

Hope to at least get her fired-up this weekend. I REALLY want to here this thing run...at least idle!

Wow...cool to see you took the plunge!

You're about to have some real fun! I have no doubt you're going to like it a lot!

JIM

That issue is resolved. Will need to drop off that spun alum drop base. If it clears everything, there's more than enough metal in it to install the IAT sensor.


can you also use a tee fitting on that one port?

can you also use a tee fitting on that one port?

As far as IAT goes...not sure. But, easy enough just to thread it into the base of an air cleaner.

not sure exactly what you're asking but you don't want to Tee the PB line and the PCV. tough to Tee the IAT off because you want it to be in the moving airstream entering the engine.

Doug F,

I live in Az, what do you think about the possibility of mounting C950 computer under the hood? I'm really having a tough time cutting a 2" hole in the firewall of my virginal Az car. It could go in the pocket in front of the left inner fender. That's a protected area, and I could seal up the box a little too.

Doug F,

I live in Az, what do you think about the possibility of mounting C950 computer under the hood? I'm really having a tough time cutting a 2" hole in the firewall of my virginal Az car. It could go in the pocket in front of the left inner fender. That's a protected area, and I could seal up the box a little too.

Tom,
It isn't "designed" for underhood applications due to the unsealed connectors. It isn't potted inside either. That being said we had one underhood on a car that did power tours, etc, with no problems. There are components rated for max of 85c in there. After 85c it doesn't mean they don't work, just may go out of tolerance.

Personally Tom if you mount it how you say, it is probably fine. I'd get some non-conductive grease meant for the purpose and stick some on the connectors (although I've never done that). So I'd probably give it a shot, just point the connectors down and make sure no water gets there.

Don't completely seal it, etc, you want heat to escape as I'm sure you know.

Doug, thx for answering up on this. I think I'm going to try it.

Doug,

How would you upgrade the Avenger system to the HP version? Is it a software flash to unlock the features?

From the Holley website:

"•System can be upgraded in the future to a Holley “HP EFI System” if desired "

We'll, got the wiring done today, and the fuel system. The biggest PIA is hood clearance, I'm having problems actually. This intake is HIGH, and 69's have LOW hood clerance. I've cut and bent the throttle cable so its sits lower, but still needs more work. with a drop base air cleaner and 3" element, it slighlty rubs the hood. I dont think I will run a shorter filter b/c the lid and base are pretty tight to each other internally as is...no way will I make that tighter. I'm considering possible cutting a section of the hood bracing a but...but need to sleep on it. K&N offers a ~2.83" filter...maybe that's the way to go. Hope to hear this run tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Not sure if the throttle bracket is in the way of the air filter, but on mine I was able to mount the bracket crossways on the rear bolts and free up some room on the side of the throttle body. I also drilled and tapped the throttle bracket to hold the air temp sensor.

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm436/540Hotrod/555EFI.jpg

JIM

Jim, your not running any sort of drop vase aircleaner are you? Cowl hood?

Vince, take note, he's running with twin breathers and no PCV. Doing so, you could just leave the IAT where it is, and use the front port for the PB.

Alreay taken care of...

Front will be PCV, where the MAT/IAT sensor was is now the PB port as Doug suggested. Will probably thread the sensor into the air cleaner.

She's alive :hurray:

Damn thing started up in about 10 secs, and rested at a 875 idle right off the bat. I went through the "wizard" setup function on this hand held, took all of a minute, and the motor was ready to go! All I had to do was set the timing, and put the timing light away forever. Couldnt have been any easier. When I wing the throttle, aw man, its sounds evil.

Best part part is, she's idling at 875, 25* of spark, 14:1 AFR. Being that it wants to idle more like 950, I raised the idle through the hand-held :cool:. Got the same vacuum - about 10-11", but this was with 10* less timing. Gonna go back in there and add more timing at idle - through the hand-held of course :D. Will post a video.

cant drive it till I get the throttle bracket figured out, which is proving to be the hardest part of all of this.

Big thanks to Doug F :beers:!!!

Are you going to play with it using a laptop? Wait...what am I saying...it's Vince! If Vince won't, Joe will sneak in and play.

Make sure that you password protect it!

Glad to hear you got it running!

Mark

No chance - old school here. I even did some fiddling today - bolted on a different "carb". Back to Vince, car does sound good. Very healthy. And, as I told him, it is apparent to me, that he may have an even a bigger problem with traction to face now. JMHO, he is now way past the threshold of drag radials and ET Streets.

Vince, FYI, per the calculator. 2-3 shift at 6500 rpm with 3.42 gears occurs at 97 mph.

!!!!UNFRIGGIN BELIVEABLE!!!!

Went for a drive. This thing is so responsive that I need to adjust my driving style a bit, as there is more power/response even as I let the clutch out. When I hit WOT...I KNOW I picked up mucho power over the 850 Holley I was running. This is so much more responsive than a carb that its scarey. My heart was racing a couple of times. This is from a guy who ran Prosystems/Holley HP carbs, so I know how a good carb runs. This is MUCH more responsive than ANY of them. These poor rear tires are just pleading for mercy.

Anyway, took me several hours to get this hood to close. This by itself was an accomplishment - a stock 69 SS hood with a VERY high single plane intake and 3" air cleaner. Had to make my own throttle cable bracket, and had to use my modified air cleaner base that I used to run a Victor Jr intake. Had to cut a small window in the base so the throttle arm will clear. Will need to fiberglass over this hole. The air cleaner is actually clocked a certain way. Hey, you gotta do what you gotta do. Perhaps a better way to go would of been to use a Victor Jr EFI intake, as it sits lower than this.

Anyway, the hand held unit is sweet, all the vitals are available as you drive. So nice to adjust idle/spark/AFR from your seat, but honestly after you get these set, no real reason to have to keep messing around with it.

To think I spent years trying to get my carbs to idle, cruise, and WOT AFR #'s where I wanted, and never did quite get them and or the response to my liking. This handheld asked me the AFR's I wanted to run for idle, cruise, and WOT. Driving around its 14.0, WOT 12.5, and idle 14.0. Just did in minutes what I tried for years - amazing. From the drivers seat no less! Eventually will try 15:1 for cruise.

Car was a little choppy at first, and by the time I got back from a 10 mile drive I could tell it was running smoother. Car idles like a dream. Nice to see how the idle is stable...even turning the headlights on prior would drop the rpms by 50 to 75, now turning on the lights does nothing - the ECU adjusts. Lets not forget this thing data logs, has rev limiters, start retard (cranking rpm actually), electric fan controls, a/c control, a wide band meter, and a bunch of other stuff.

Good stuff here folks. Now I know why the EFI guys love EFI.

***Again a big thanks to Doug F*** thanks Doug!


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2733.jpg?t=1280709687

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2736.jpg?t=1280709687

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2738.jpg?t=1280709687

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2763.jpg?t=1280709687

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2772.jpg?t=1280709880

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2766.jpg?t=1280709687

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2767.jpg?t=1280709687

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2768.jpg?t=1280709687

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2770.jpg?t=1280709687

that is awesome to hear and you never know its there!

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Are your brakes as good as before?

Do you suppose that the performance boost came from the larger 1000 cfm and/or taller intake?

Doug, does the intake make a big difference in performance on MPFI? I know you run a tunnel ram and Jim's 540 is running a Domintor MPFI intake, so I guess the answer is yes, but is there a significant difference?

That was my thoughts also. Would guess, Vince's motor is pushing 700 HP if dyno'd. Between the long runners and MPFI, the motor is now getting consistent fuel distribution along with all CFM that the motor needs. Now all he needs are some 10" rims and as much of a slick as he can get under the wheel wells.

Are your brakes as good as before?

Do you suppose that the performance boost came from the larger 1000 cfm and/or taller intake?

Doug, does the intake make a big difference in performance on MPFI? I know you run a tunnel ram and Jim's 540 is running a Domintor MPFI intake, so I guess the answer is yes, but is there a significant difference?

Thanks guys!

Mark, hard to say what makes it so much better. So far, the biggest thing I noticed was the better idle and WOT hits harder. I guess the MPFI is not waiting on air velocity like a carb does to get the metering going. The power is instantaneous...not waiting on a accelerator circuit of a carb to catch up. When you think about, when you wing open a carb, you get a gulp of air that goes down first, then the accelerator pump comes in right after. With EFI, the injector is below the plates, and the mixture hits right on time. I'm sure the 1000cfm throttle body and tall single plane are just what my 509 wants anyhow.

Keep in mind, I only drove for 10 miles. Need to get more time on in before I can come to complete conclusions. Speaking with Doug, WOT learning occurs very fast - and I beleive it b/c it felt SUPER strong right off the bat up top. Its the low rpm driving stuff that takes longer to learn. Just wanted to post my initial findings for now.

Intake can not be milled. Mounting flange is only about 1/4" thick. It's either a raised hood or a drop base air cleaner.

Not so. I milled mine 1/2". The steel plate under the TB will seal against a milled intake, even though the pad has been milled off. I used some RTV so the plate stays on the intake and then a gasket between plate and TB. I had what was left of the IAT hole TIG welded shut and put the IAT sensor in the air cleaner.

http://www.imagesup.com/usr/84/IMG_0628.JPG

Zwede,

What year is your car, and what's the airfilter system consist of? I contemplated milling the intake, but I think dropping the TB down lower closer to the rails would of made things worse for my particular situation. The drop base aircleaner just makes things tough. Did you clearance the throttle arm at all? The throttle arm hit my rails with just the metal spacer/gaskets not installed.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q116/VGIORDANO_2007/IMG_2763.jpg?t=1280709687

That's good to know. So the mounting bolt holes were drilled and tapped deep enough? 1/2" wouod have made a big difference with both the air cleaner and the throttle linkage.

Stellar.

This is pushing me slowly but surely toward an EFI BB. Please keep the thread going, its invaluable to guys like me who wobble on the fence, HAVE to go with a BB and still havent built the motor yet so can go either way. I didnt want to putz with the laptop so what you are doing is PERFECTO for me to watch as well as others, I am sure.

VERY - VERY COOL

The car is a '71 Corvette, so not quite apples to apples. But we share a lack of hood clearance. :)

I'm using an L88 air cleaner setup where the filter is in the cold air chamber attached to the hood.

I have an earlier TB where the throttle linkage was billet aluminum rather than the steel linkage you have. Yes, I did cut mine to clear the fuel rail and also the top to clear the air cleaner. The linkage had two holes, I cut it right above the first hole.

If you need pictures from other angles, just let me know.

Zwede, I figured you had the earlier TB with the different linkage. In all honesty though, I could of easily ground the bottom of this throttle arm off so the TB could sit lower. But in the end, just much easier to do what I did as far as modifying the air cleaner base and throttle bracket - its done.


Anyway, took her for another drive, she's running like a top. Power is just right "there" all the time. Spinning wheels at part throttle. Took the Mrs. along, and even she could tell the difference...especially at idle. It idles so smooth that if feels like its idling lower, even though the tach says 1000 rpms like it did with the carb. No hesitations, no hick-ups, nothing except razor-sharp power. I feel compelled to hit the track asap :D

Will do another update after a couple more drives, but cant imagine it running any better than it does already, but it will.

Good stuff people :thumbsup:

Good stuff. You keep getting those bugs worked out.

Vince, what did you end up with for a fuel system? I have a couple intakes with throttle bodies and injectors, just need to figure out a fuel system and get a harness and ECM........ Jim

I had run -8 Aeroquip socketless hose for the feed and a return for the prior setup. I have a bunch of reducers here and there to reduce the -8 to 3/8 barbed fittings throughout the system. The inline pump supplied by Holley, the filters, all use 3/8 barbed fittings...that's all you need for this system. Over the winter, I will get a tank sumped, and change everything to -6 socketless for a cleaner install. The -8 is just too big to route nicely through the car...it has a .75 OD IIRC, and you have two of them.

This all sounds familiar! When we converted mine it was on the dyno initially. We had been making dyno pulls with the carbed setup and Judson, the owner of the School of Automotive Machinists was listening through the walls up in his office as we made pulls. When we got the EFI fired up... he came back and wanted to know what we had done because he said it sounded like we had *taken 20 of cam out of it* from the way it was idling.

As soon as it cools off a little I'll be hitting the track also to get some runs in. I think it's going to be good!

Great to hear how it's working for you!


JIM

Here's where it gets confusing for me. EFI works best with a single plane intake where you get far superior mixture distribution cylinder to cylinder over a dual plane. Is it possible that the intake design contributes to the efficiency in the entire rpm range, and the EFI helps it in the lower rpm range?

I would say most healthy motors *want* a great big single plane anyway...it's just that a carb has a hard time keeping response strong at low RPM with cams that prefer a great big single plane. Dual planes help carbs do *un-natural* acts.

EFI just does what it's told to do. It will add whatever fuel it needs regardless of airflow. I've got 1 to 1 linkage on my TB which really provides a lot of area increase when you touch it. The EFI makes it instantly respond without the need to dump a huge pump shot right off idle into a big open plenum and hope it gets to the right cylinder as needed.

I love carbs, but the Holley EFI is amazing on big nasty street toys!

JIM

I went for a drive again, and it blows my mind how good this runs. I was fully expecting some issues here and there, but there's really none! The response is phenomenal, and the car is somewhat violent...if that makes sense. I have to refine my driving style a bit now as it is hard on the passengers and myself. B/c the EFI made the response so razor-sharp, and any movement of the pedal translates into a jarring motion of the entire car, which makes my foot move more, which means more jarring, etc. May need to detune it a bit....on second thought - nahhh!!!

I'd have to say whatever Holley's goals were with this system have been acheived in my application, in terms of getting up and going w/o incident. Went through the setup in 1 minute, and the damn thing runs excellent right off the bat. Stick car let's not forget!

I would like to add (that's a suprise huh?) that my alternator is keeping up with the demands as far as I can tell. I have whatever alt. the car came with, probably a 55A unit? Holds over 13.6 volts with the EFI, fuel pump, and the highbeams going.

Vince, what size of injectors did you use?

This is the kit I'm running - includes 48lb injectors. All you need if you want computer-controlled timing is a small-cap/external coil HEI from a ~90's V8 pickup. Got my distrib and coil for 50.00.

http://www.holley.com/550-831.asp

YouTube- MVI 2779

YouTube- MVI 2781

It does look simple to tune.

Do you have before/after idle videos, or doesn't it sound that much different?

Mark

Nothing really before/after. One of the most noticeable things right now is the solid idle...just doesnt vary like it used to, even though the timing was locked. Idle used to dip a bit depending on temp, headlights on, and the ocassional hard braking going down hill...no more. Doesnt sound a whole lot different though.

The ECU manipulates the timing at idle to make it smoother/more constant.

Awesome.

I've been following along on this kit since it was released and to be honest your post, feedback and videos have done far more to sell me on it than anything else.

So Doug - when I purchase maybe send Vince a thankyou for the sale because for me it was sold in this thread and with vinces info and posts.

Thank you, Vince!

Man I am jealous. VERY cool.

Stay tuned. Vince will be doing an Avenger TBI swap very shortly on another big block Chevelle. This other swap will be limited to replacing the carb and mech pump fuel system with a TBI, ECU and related fuel system. Won't be swapping intakes or even pulling the HEI for this next one.

Sweet!

Thanks for the pics and video...very helpful to those of us on the fence.

Very nice, Vince. Sounds (and looks) great!

Way to go Vince.....:thumbsup:
Need new tires yet?........:D
Vince your not one to let things alone for long....Whats next?.......;)

Way to go Vince.....:thumbsup:
Need new tires yet?........:D
Vince your not one to let things alone for long....Whats next?.......;)


Nothing just yet. Gonna try and experiment a little with the EFI, but really liking how she's running. Very linerar power, rather than the double pumper "hit". Going to make a ~100 mile loop tomorrow, see what kinda MPG we can get.

Vince your not one to let things alone for long....Whats next?.......;)

I'm thinking Anti Roll Bar & slicks. He's going to need traction now.

Mark

Believe me, I needed slicks and a ARB before this, but my racing days are numbered. Will probably hit the track again when it cools off a bit around here. Wondering if I can maybe pull some timing out of the motor so it hooks a little easier??

We'll, found something I'm dissapointed in with the conversion to EFI - the fuel milage, or lack thereof. Cruise RPMs are 2000-2400, avg 2200 = ~72mph. Previous MPG was 15.4 with a Holley 4781-7, running 12:1, and 34* of timing. Now, with the EFI holding a steady 15:1, 32* of timing, d#mn MPG is only 16.0 on a 105 mile trip!!! What's up with that???

I guess this thing is just a pig - no matter what is feeding it. For some reason, I have the cruise timing set to 41*, but it wont add anymore than 32* when I checked, so I need to look into this. Possible my cruise rpms are just too low for the additional timing to come in.

Can that little bit of timing make THAT much difference in terms of MPG???

Well Vince...

A) You spent a fair amount of time tuning your carb setup so it may not have been that far off.

B) Your cruise RPMs are still too high for best MPG, there is a lot of difference in that range. I would look for cruise in the under 2000 RPM range personally. Note that there is a huge difference in noise to be found here as well.

C) You are being much too conservative on your AFR for cruise. Contrary to popular belief exhaust temperatures and CHT drop as you lean things out. Peak temperatures are around the 14.7 AFR which is why todays cars run there: they have to keep the catalytic converted lit with exhaust gas heat. Lean that sucker out until it stumbles a bit then back off. You should be able to get up around 16.5-18 and the real limiter is getting the mixture lit in the cylinders. Ignition gets unstable as the mixture leans out. Multi-spark can mitigate this a bit.

D) Yes spark advance can make a big difference. Consider how much your idle vacuum changes when you add the vacuum advance. That is a direct indication of how much more efficiently the engine is running: it is needing to be throttled back more to maintain the same RPM.

BTW congrats on going over to the EFI side. You are making me want to get out into the garage and get busy ;) :beers:

Thanks Steve. Actually almost seems like I could use a little more OD on highway, does kinda feel like she's reving pretty good at 2200.

One of the joys of EFI is the ability to tune on the fly. While the car was running a steady 2200, at 15:1, I could feel a very light surge/miss. Leaning to 15.5-16:1, car began to lose forward motion, I could feel it sputtering. It actually felt pretty nice at 14.5:1. Now, possible that I just need all that extra timing at 15:1+ to get it to run right. Problem is (as I mention numerous times) is that with a manual trans, you can feel every surge/miss., wheras a convertor would cover it up. The spark timing has me concerned, I'm down close to 10* from where I set it, down maybe 20* from ideal (52* cruise timing). But at least I got a pretty good comparison between the 2 systems.


Anyway, 12:1 to 15:1 didnt make a difference - this in and of itself is very interesting. Makes you wonder if going through all the trouble to lean carbs out is worth it.

Anyway, 12:1 to 15:1 didnt make a difference - this in and of itself is very interesting. Makes you wonder if going through all the trouble to lean carbs out is worth it.

that's where I am at with my 4150.....been tuning it the last month or so and got it to cruise at 13, and I am done with it. Runs and idles really good, great response and just messing with it more to gain maybe 1 more mile to the gallon it's not worth it.

If you want more freeway mpg, you'll have to gear it to run around 1,500 rpm in 5th at 65-70. That means 1,300 at 55-60 mph. You've got plenty of torque down there to maintain speed, and you should be able to creep up on 20 mpg if you get it right.

My experience was I got about 2x more affect from the OD reducing cruise RPM than I did out of the carb tuning.

I also wonder about the absolute reliability of the AFR numbers... I think some WB O2 controller/display units may not be absolutely correct. Mine did not stumble until it hit 16+. Note also that the stumble will be caused by the worst case cylinder. With the EFI there should be a lot less difference between best and worst cylinder than there is with a carb.

that's where I am at with my 4150.....been tuning it the last month or so and got it to cruise at 13, and I am done with it. Runs and idles really good, great response and just messing with it more to gain maybe 1 more mile to the gallon it's not worth it.

Anyway, 12:1 to 15:1 didnt make a difference - this in and of itself is very interesting. Makes you wonder if going through all the trouble to lean carbs out is worth it.

My carb set up is looking better all the time. Jet is for 13/1 WOT (or whatever nets best mph) and just let the cruise end up where ever it does.

My experience was I got about 2x more affect from the OD reducing cruise RPM than I did out of the carb tuning.

I also wonder about the absolute reliability of the AFR numbers... I think some WB O2 controller/display units may not be absolutely correct. Mine did not stumble until it hit 16+. Note also that the stumble will be caused by the worst case cylinder. With the EFI there should be a lot less difference between best and worst cylinder than there is with a carb.

As I mentioned, it was starting to missfire and stumble above 15:1, real bad at 16:1. Actually even 15:1 has a slight miss. Question is though, is it possible that too lean will decrease mpg? I mean, there is a point of inefficency isnt there? The cam in this equation - 248/254 .654/.660 110lsa is probably just wasting fuel and not efficent in this range...lotta overlap. I do have a 234/236 .600 112lsa cam sitting on the shelf...hmmm

As I mentioned, it was starting to missfire and stumble above 15:1, real bad at 16:1. Actually even 15:1 has a slight miss. Question is though, is it possible that too lean will decrease mpg? I mean, there is a point of inefficency isnt there? The cam in this equation - 248/254 .654/.660 110lsa is probably just wasting fuel and not efficent in this range...lotta overlap. I do have a 234/236 .600 112lsa cam sitting on the shelf...hmmm
Not disagreeing with your observations at all Vince. I was trying to suggest that your 15:1 may read 16:1 on my WB O2 setup.

I think you will be unable to light the mixture way before hitting the bad part of the curve. Anybody recall the Honda CVCC engine of the 70's? It was originally designed to allow Honda to avoid adding catalytic converters. The basic setup was two combustion chambers: a small 14.7:1 chamber with the spark plug in it fired through a hole into the main combustion chamber. The main chamber was ignited by the resulting torch flame and ran up in the 20's for AFR. Those suckers used to be able to pull 35 MPG around town and 40+ down the highway. They hit just at the fuel crisis and became mileage kings TOTALLY by accident. One of those happy coincidences :D

It would be interesting to see what kind of difference that cam made... but I would guess not much. But then you also get into port and valve sizes and air velocities there too so it might be more than I think.

Gee...Vince changing cams...Where have I heard this before?

Vince, how does your car run down in the 1700 rpm range? Does it seem to run pretty smooth? I'm going to run a T-56 magnum, and I can get either a .5 or .62 DOD. 70mph cruise will be either 1700 or 2100 RPM respectively. I am just wondering if mine would cruse well down that low with the cam I'm going to use below.

My plan is to use EFI to cruse well with my 4.10 gears, a DOD T-56 and a large duration HR cam. 1700 RPM cruse at 70 MPH seems too low to me, but if the Avenger MPFI will fuel the engine well that low, then the .5 OD may yield better fuel economy.

Not disagreeing with your observations at all Vince. I was trying to suggest that your 15:1 may read 16:1 on my WB O2 setup.

I think you will be unable to light the mixture way before hitting the bad part of the curve. Anybody recall the Honda CVCC engine of the 70's? It was originally designed to allow Honda to avoid adding catalytic converters. The basic setup was two combustion chambers: a small 14.7:1 chamber with the spark plug in it fired through a hole into the main combustion chamber. The main chamber was ignited by the resulting torch flame and ran up in the 20's for AFR. Those suckers used to be able to pull 35 MPG around town and 40+ down the highway. They hit just at the fuel crisis and became mileage kings TOTALLY by accident. One of those happy coincidences :D

It would be interesting to see what kind of difference that cam made... but I would guess not much. But then you also get into port and valve sizes and air velocities there too so it might be more than I think.

Interesting Steve. Since this EFI thing is all new to me, I have some learning to do. Think I'll take another long drive, and try 13:1, 14:1, 15:1. Curious to see what the TPS values are, along with some other values. Can enough info be ascertained with the current system's sensors to determine what the best MPG setting is? Car runs great, just trying to take advantage of every little bit of everything :D

Gee...Vince changing cams...Where have I heard this before?

Vince, how does your car run down in the 1700 rpm range? Does it seem to run pretty smooth? I'm going to run a T-56 magnum, and I can get either a .5 or .62 DOD. 70mph cruise will be either 1700 or 2100 RPM respectively. I am just wondering if mine would cruse well down that low with the cam I'm going to use below.

My plan is to use EFI to cruse well with my 4.10 gears, a DOD T-56 and a large duration HR cam. 1700 RPM cruse at 70 MPH seems too low to me, but if the Avenger MPFI will fuel the engine well that low, then the .5 OD may yield better fuel economy.

Mark, hard to say, I need more time on it. Having some issues below 2000, primarily below 1800. My cam may be a little more aggressive than yours, worsening the problem. I decided to create an "around town" file, which has the motor running 13:1 all the time down low and cruise, and so far, so good. It just needs more time to learn in this area. I think it going to be better though, as the EFI system will maintain the target AFR in the area. My 850DP would cruise somewhere around 12-13:1 on the highway, but in OD around town under 2000 (say 1600-1700), AFR would lean-out to 15-16-17:1, car would start to buck/surge. Feels better so far. Just need more time.

The .50 OD will basically 1/2 the rpms...so that's gonna be tough, for me it would. But I was hitting 2400 rpms today, so I could of probably used it! I guess if you will be on the highway exclusively, I'd say go for it.

Looks like we were all out fuel mileage testing today!

JIM

I can't wait to get this system installed. Your not happy with 16mpg!
I think I get 3 in town , maybe 8-9 hway. If I get anywhere near that I will have a grin I can't wipe off till Christmas! I should have my system here in 2-3 weeks. How long did it take you to install it? I have a road trip in 5 weeks and don't know if it would be wise to try to get it installed before????? If I need any major parts I'm screwed. One of the few downfalls to living in Canada ,slow shipping across the border and maybe if I'm lucky 5-6 months of cruising.

I can't wait to get this system installed. Your not happy with 16mpg!
I think I get 3 in town , maybe 8-9 hway. If I get anywhere near that I will have a grin I can't wipe off till Christmas! I should have my system here in 2-3 weeks. How long did it take you to install it? I have a road trip in 5 weeks and don't know if it would be wise to try to get it installed before????? If I need any major parts I'm screwed. One of the few downfalls to living in Canada ,slow shipping across the border and maybe if I'm lucky 5-6 months of cruising.

Went pretty quick actually. Figure one day for the intake swap, another day for the ecu/wiring mounting/connections, another day for fuel system (if not setup). B/c I had the return line already, it took me 2 days to install.

You will be happy to know that this system runs every bit as good, maybe better, than your 950HP, but will run MUCH cleaner at cruise right of the bat.

The .50 OD will basically 1/2 the rpms...so that's gonna be tough, for me it would. But I was hitting 2400 rpms today, so I could of probably used it! I guess if you will be on the highway exclusively, I'd say go for it.

I'm a huge fan of the Gear Vendor, even on a manually tranny. Thumb switch, only when you want it and you'll cut your rpm's by 22% IIRC. Much better than a 50% cut for your combo, and you can choose to do it in any gear.

Just throwing something else out there for you to contemplate swapping. :D

No trans swapping for me Mark...not yet anyway!

Vince excellent post.
Looks like a great system.
If you already have a good intake I was wondering why you didn't go with the FAST EZI EFI?
I imagine the Multi port injection makes more power?

Dave

Vince excellent post.
Looks like a great system.
If you already have a good intake I was wondering why you didn't go with the FAST EZI EFI?
I imagine the Multi port injection makes more power?

Dave

Good question, cause I was liking the EZ EFI.

Yes, multiport is much better once the HP starts getting up there - just better cyl to cyl distribution. But most importantly, spark control, which EZ doesnt have. May not seem like a big deal, but when you consider the mulitple rev limiters, start retard, datalogging capabilities, hard to pass that up. Not to mention that ultimately, this can be connected to a computer and you can really start to dig and totally rework everything if needed. So in my mind, this system was the clear choice. Holley also uses this ECU for the TBI systems...very powerful stuff. Not to mention NO2, meth, boost, LS motor control...to name just a few.

http://www.holley.com/550-412.asp

Great thread !! Loved your video. I am surpriced about the mpg not being better, was kind of the big reason for me on why I should go EFI.
The system seems to work great. Not regretting on going with prosystems 1000hp, but if you get that mpg up close to 20 i´m buying EFI too !

If someone can get 20mpg in a big cammed BBC that weighs 3600+ lbs with any gear, you'll have to prove it to me.. :). That means "real" driving going 65+ MPH driving "normal". I just don't think that is realistic.

16mpg IMO is great whether EFI or a carb.

We'll, got the wiring done today, and the fuel system. The biggest PIA is hood clearance, I'm having problems actually. This intake is HIGH, and 69's have LOW hood clerance. I've cut and bent the throttle cable so its sits lower, but still needs more work. with a drop base air cleaner and 3" element, it slighlty rubs the hood. I dont think I will run a shorter filter b/c the lid and base are pretty tight to each other internally as is...no way will I make that tighter. I'm considering possible cutting a section of the hood bracing a but...but need to sleep on it. K&N offers a ~2.83" filter...maybe that's the way to go. Hope to hear this run tomorrow. Stay tuned.


If you haven't already solved it check out the pm I sent you a while back, those part numbers worked perfect on mine. :yes:

I actually didnt go with EFI for mileage or more HP...just better overall performance. But I'd be lying if I said I wasnt expecting a bit more mileage ;). What I have been pleasantly suprised with is the increased midrange tq and sweet top-end pull, not to mention razor-sharp throttle reponse that I'm still trying to get used to. I used to nail the throttle in 2nd gear, and as the motor got up in rpms, the tires would start to break loose in the upper rpms. What I'm finding now is that there is more tq right off the bottom, the motor starts spinning the tires off the bottom. Its quite remarkeable. And I'm really digging the idle quality.

The biggest challenge will be whether or not I can get this cam to run totally smooth at very low rpms, there could be such a mismatch here in terms of cam selections vs actual operating range that there's not much that can be done. But at least I have the tools now to try and tame it.

I know I'm new here and this isn't the best spot to suggest it but when does "efi" get its own heading instead of that dinky little sub heading? lol. There seems to be enough interest.
This thread has cost me more then I care to tell my wife!
Keep up the testing.

When is the next track date???

Probably in a month or so...still kinda making sure everything is OK, and let the air temps come down a bit. I run a 180* stat in the car, and dont really want to stage at 190*.

Need to get my tank sumped too...that's just sort of on the backburner as its not absolutey necessary at this point...easier just to fill-up when the tank hits 1/2 way :D

Probably in a month or so...still kinda making sure everything is OK, and let the air temps come down a bit. I run a 180* stat in the car, and dont really want to stage at 190*.

Need to get my tank sumped too...that's just sort of on the backburner as its not absolutey necessary at this point...easier just to fill-up when the tank hits 1/2 way :D

Let me know when you are headed to the track Vince. I want to check this out. I think that 16 mpg is pretty good for a car that should be able to dip into the 10's when you get it to hook.

Vince,

How much gap is there between your air cleaner lid and the drop base? Does there seem to be a big enough gap for sufficient air flow?

Where did you get your spark plug wire looms?

Mark

Let me know when you are headed to the track Vince. I want to check this out. I think that 16 mpg is pretty good for a car that should be able to dip into the 10's when you get it to hook.

Yes, let me know also. I wanna go and "watch" !

Yes, let me know also. I wanna go and "watch" !

You should have a real good view sitting in the other lane :p

Vince,

How much gap is there between your air cleaner lid and the drop base? Does there seem to be a big enough gap for sufficient air flow?

Where did you get your spark plug wire looms?

Mark

Not a whole lot, but no different than running this setup as if it was on a carb. Probably just fine for the around town blasts. Race day - just take it off.

Forget where I got the looms from...I can check.

You should have a real good view sitting in the other lane :p

Don't forget...he is a "retired racer" now.....:D

You should have a real good view sitting in the other lane :p

I'll have to run the right hand lane though. Only have a rear view mirror on the driver side and I've had a problem with the inside rear view mirror dropping after the launch.

PS : Did young grass hopper forget? We put one solid roller in mine too!

PSS: And fixed the suspension

PSSS: And (maybe) gonna have EFI on one said '69 automatic car.

PSSSS: Is Gary in this thread?

I'll have to run the right hand lane though. Only have a rear view mirror on the driver side and I've had a problem with the inside rear view mirror dropping after the launch.

PS : Did young grass hopper forget? We put one solid roller in mine too!

PSS: And fixed the suspension

PSSS: And (maybe) gonna have EFI on one said '69 automatic car.

PSSSS: Is Gary in this thread?

Be a heck of a race! I think Vince has the power advantage, but can he get it to hook? I think my money would be on the automatic....sorry Vince....

Be a heck of a race! I think Vince has the power advantage, but can he get it to hook? I think my money would be on the automatic....sorry Vince....

I think your bet would be well-placed.

Looks like you have transformed Frankenrat into the well behaved beast.
Vince did I ever mention I went on a 1000 mile trip in April and got 17.2 MPG doing 80mph with my 750 DP? That swap sure does look nice. I also think that cam on your shelf is your ticket to 18+ mpg. But is it worth the trade off in power?

PSSSS: Is Gary in this thread? l:)I got it......

Little over my head....could be a function of my young age???

Gary GOFAST!!


He hehe heh he.....


PS- (You had to have been around here for awhile)

PSS-This is funny......

Where has Gary GOFAST been - I miss him!

PS - I dont think that's who Joe is referring to...

I'm going out on a limb here....:D and may be wrong.......:p
But I think the comment was directed at me due to a post I made directed at Gary our TC used car salesman in a recent 67 thread....It was a behind the scene type of deal that could be misconstrued if one did not know the whole story. In the future I'll try to keep things a bit more along subject lines and not joke around.....So I'm officially retiring.........l:)

Don't worry...Gary GOFAST has nothing to do with you. Gary from New York used to come around a lot....see him every once in a while now. His trademark was that every post had at least 1-4 PS, PSS and PSSS's.....etc at the end of it.

JIM

Yes, Gary GOFAST.

Hey Joe, suppose to be pretty cool tomorrow night...

17.5 MPG :hurray:

2100-2200 cruise rpm = 70-75mph

Ok guys, another 107 mile loop. Basically, ran 15:1 again, pretty much like last time. But, added apprx 16* of timing to my cruise, from 34* to 50*, and man did she want it. Broke out the laptop (oh nooooo :D), and as I was driving, found the timing "cells" that the motor was currently operating in. Highlighted those areas, and changed them all at once to 50*. Damn car just about leaped forward! Interesting - one "small" change resulted in a 1.5 mpg increase.

16:1 felt pretty good actually, slight missfire maybe, but the rough roads around here make it tough to decern. 17:1 = little more missfire. 18:1 = audible pinging. I just decided to keep 15:1 b/c that audible pinging was with the windows both fully opened at 70 mph+. Who knows what you can hear if the windows were closed. But I think 16:1 would be pretty safe. Maybe 16:1 would work perfectly with more timing.

Its so nice to just highlight these areas and all at once change from 14, 15, 16, 17:1, with just a key stroke, and you can immediatley and directly feel the impact that change had.

What do you think guys 20mpg possible if I lower the rpms to 1900-2000, and 16:1?

Some stats for folks who like this sort of thing:

lbs/hr at cruise = ~32
kpa at cruise = ~55 level ground, 65 slight incline
pulsewidth at cruise = 2.9 to 3.0


Side note, its idling so smooth that I lowered it to about 950 from the previous 1000. Lost my powerbrakes a bit!!!!

So far, I'm up just over 2 mpg with the swap to efi.

EDIT - in all fairness to the carb, I only had the vac advance hooked-up for about 55 mile for its mpg testing, then I un-hooked it on the way home. Possible it coulda done a bit better with it on, but the car just didnt seem as smooth with it connected.

i some how got 23.5mpg with my carb on my chevelle cruising at 13.3 AFR.. but in the last trip in my gto i only got 17.7 lol.
damn over rich, no timing LS1's lol

aaron

I'm eating this up! Your killing me.
Hydraboost is an option for brakes. One of the best decisions I made. It was a pain free install.
How can you do these mpg tests without nailing it? I couldn't do it... Maybe if I had a string around my big toe connected to my n*#s.

17.5 MPG :hurray:

2100-2200 cruise rpm = 70-75mph

Ok guys, another 107 mile loop. Basically, ran 15:1 again, pretty much like last time. But, added apprx 16* of timing to my cruise, from 34* to 50*, and man did she want it. Broke out the laptop (oh nooooo :D), and as I was driving, found the timing "cells" that the motor was currently operating in. Highlighted those areas, and changed them all at once to 50*. Damn car just about leaped forward! Interesting - one "small" change resulted in a 1.5 mpg increase.

16:1 felt pretty good actually, slight missfire maybe, but the rough roads around here make it tough to decern. 17:1 = little more missfire. 18:1 = audible pinging. I just decided to keep 15:1 b/c that audible pinging was with the windows both fully opened at 70 mph+. Who knows what you can hear if the windows were closed. But I think 16:1 would be pretty safe. Maybe 16:1 would work perfectly with more timing.

Its so nice to just highlight these areas and all at once change from 14, 15, 16, 17:1, with just a key stroke, and you can immediatley and directly feel the impact that change had.

What do you think guys 20mpg possible if I lower the rpms to 1900-2000, and 16:1?

Some stats for folks who like this sort of thing:

lbs/hr at cruise = ~32
kpa at cruise = ~55 level ground, 65 slight incline
pulsewidth at cruise = 2.9 to 3.0


Side note, its idling so smooth that I lowered it to about 950 from the previous 1000. Lost my powerbrakes a bit!!!!

So far, I'm up just over 2 mpg with the swap to efi.

EDIT - in all fairness to the carb, I only had the vac advance hooked-up for about 55 mile for its mpg testing, then I un-hooked it on the way home. Possible it coulda done a bit better with it on, but the car just didnt seem as smooth with it connected.

What did I tell you??? :hurray::hurray::hurray:

So at idle my own vacuum jumped from 7" up to 11" when I bumped idle timing from 18* up to 30*. That is a pretty serious indication of a happier motor. No reason to expect it to be any different at cruise.

You are only 2.5 MPG from breaking the 20 MPG barrier... I got close to 2 MPG gain when I swapped in the TKO transmission. So I think it IS possible to get a BBC to run over 20 MPG down the highway :yes:

On that idle reduction... this is actually a pretty good idea to improve efficiency around town ;)

I'm eating this up! Your killing me.
Hydraboost is an option for brakes. One of the best decisions I made. It was a pain free install.
How can you do these mpg tests without nailing it? I couldn't do it... Maybe if I had a string around my big toe connected to my n*#s.
ROFLMAO
Haven't I seen that "economy device" sold on Ebay? l:) Well maybe not...

Actually enough traffic and the tests get a lot easier :sad:

Hydraboost is very cool. I have big rotors with Brembo calipers and a hydraboost on my Mustang Bullitt and it is a fantastic combination. One of the best aspects is the quick take up of the system. You think "brake" and it is right there right now with no delay. I think I read once that the power boost kicks in on hydraboost systems with 1/2 the movement required by vacuum boost systems.

Now with access to the EFI code... and multi-port sequential injection... one could play with "planned misfires" and suppress fuel to cylinders in some kind of periodic rotation. Might be able to coax a bit more economy out.

Never doubted you for a second Steve :thumbsup:

I'm a firm believer in timing...so much so that I locked-out my distributor and ran ported. The big cam was causing some tuning issues with the distributor too.

Good point about the sequential..forgot about that for now. Just costs alot of money to get into it, and not sure just yet if the benefits are worth the cost. Would need a distrib, ignition box - about $550.00 between the 2. Or, the nice way to do it would be with Holley's DIS system, and GM cam-sync distrib, about $650.00. Very strong ignition system there. Might be able to cruise even leaner.

The combination of raw horsepower, and economy you guys are squeezing out of these old cars is impressive. wow. talk about putting a lot of production cars to shame.

I actually decided to create 2 separate tunes, a "highway" and "town" tune. The highway tune, with multiple 15:1 cells on the fuel map, create a little bit of roughness when driving around town, usually at the "bottom" of each shift. Around town, I hit these 15:1 cells, and she doesnt like it at low rpms. So I created the "town" tune that basically operates at 13:1 (aside from 15:1 idle, and 12.5 WOT). Much smoother all around. The handheld stores these tunes (as many as you want pretty much), and can quickly load the one you want.

Although its a PIA to have 2 tunes, its kinda better b/c now I'll likely run the highway even leaner, probably 16:1 and add a bit more timing.

If this was an auto trans, tuning would be real easy (this is easy as it is)...you wouldnt have to do anything as the operating range is very narrow. Stick cars - different story altogther. My range is from 950 all the way to 6500, and I use everything in between. Not to mention the cam is rather large, worsening the situation.

So, maybe an easy 18 mpg is around the corner!

Ironic, you settled in on 13/1 around town. That's right where I ended up at after playing with the carb and using the LM-2 this past weekend. Even with the automatic and a 3000 comverter, you'd be surprised at how sluggish it feels when goes any leaner. By same token, going fatter than 13/1 for general lite - mid throttle doesn't seem make it any worse or any better. Probably just wastes more gas.

Usually once you are into the laptop tuning mode you have a 2 dimensional table to work with... so you can select 13:1 in the cells under say 1500 RPM and the 15:1 in the cells above 1500 RPM and below 3000 RPM and finally 12.5:1 for everything above 3000 RPM. This way you do not need seperate tunes, you just tune for the different conditions you actually hit.

Usually once you are into the laptop tuning mode you have a 2 dimensional table to work with... so you can select 13:1 in the cells under say 1500 RPM and the 15:1 in the cells above 1500 RPM and below 3000 RPM and finally 12.5:1 for everything above 3000 RPM. This way you do not need seperate tunes, you just tune for the different conditions you actually hit.

True Steve. I need to learn about this a little more. But lets say I set 15:1 for highway use above 2000 rpms. We'll, if I let the clutch out taking off from a stop, I get into that zone. Going through the gears, you get into these zones again. I just need to tinker a little more I guess and get one good tune, that way the ECU can once and for all learn all these table rather than me change them all the time.

Around town, 14:1 actually feels pretty peppy going through the gear. Its just the bottom of the gear changes, decel, that like richer.

Looks like I have a bit more work to do...but this kinda work, I like :D

Ok... yes you do run through 2000 RPM as you go through the gears. However you go through that RPM with a different MAP which puts you into a different set of cells in the table. The typical table is indexed by RPM on one axis and MAP on the other axis. This is how you get to 12.5 AFR for all conditions of WFO --> you have high MAP under these conditions which select the 'go fast' rich cells in the table for all RPM points. It may not seem like much that you only have say 16 RPM tune points or 16 MAP tune points... but together these make for 65,535 seperate tuning cells. Enough to take a LOT of time to visit and tune.

Remember that it is a combination of engine load and speed that determine both fueling and ignition requirements. It really does not matter how you get to that combination, the situation in the engine is the same so the requirements are the same.

BTW on most EFI controllers you get a fixed set of RPM or load points to index the tables with. You might be able to specify the minimum and the maximum points for example. There is a tendency to specify for a wider range than needed which reduces tune resolution in the middle where you need it. There is at least one EFI controller however that lets you specify the values of each row/column on the table so you can cluster values in the critical areas and increase tuning resolution there.

The other area you may need to tweak is the "transitional" fueling. Early EFI units actually labelled this as an acceleration enrichment because it works somewhat like the accelerator pump on a carb and it triggered by TPS change. Newer units may have different names for it because the OEMs have discovered some complicated interactions. Basically during each cycle some fuel is deposited onto the port walls and some fuel comes off proportional to port air flow. Ideally the amount deposited is equal to the amount stripped off and you have an equilibrium. However under changing conditions like both acceleration AND deceleration these two can get out of balance. The net result is you need some extra anticipatory fuel during accleration and an anticipatory reduction during deceleration. This phenomenon is referred to in part as Tau fueling.

BTW while it might seem like a good idea to cut fuel flow to zero under extreme low load conditions... you have to consider the operation while in the transitional zone with interpolated (read: averaged) values.

Steve, I'm aware that there is different Kpa values even at say 2000rpms, but I still visit the same cells during cruise and light acceleration. Interestingly, my cruise and idle cells are pretty close together in certain circumstances, separated by only one row of cells! Now, I'm taking about the AFR table, there is a fueling table also, but this is auto-filled during the learning process, and its alot bigger this table.

I actually do think I need a little more acelerator enrichement - just a touch.

Ooops... was not trying to imply you were "stupid" Vince. :noway:

I understand that the range of MAP values can get pretty compressed with big cams and low RPM. That is where being able to "zoom in" on an area can be helpful. As an example, depending on the particulars of your system you can sometimes configure the tables to only go up to something like 5000 RPM even though your engine runs up to 6500 RPM. Above 5000 RPM the system will either maintain the same settings on up or extrapolate on up. This can sometimes be a decent tradeoff for improved resolution down where you need it.

What size is the table you are working with? What range is it covering?

I still believe that if the engine is running well "here" but not "there" some condition is different between the two :beers:

It's a 31x31 table.

Ooops... was not trying to imply you were "stupid" Vince. :noway:

I understand that the range of MAP values can get pretty compressed with big cams and low RPM. That is where being able to "zoom in" on an area can be helpful. As an example, depending on the particulars of your system you can sometimes configure the tables to only go up to something like 5000 RPM even though your engine runs up to 6500 RPM. Above 5000 RPM the system will either maintain the same settings on up or extrapolate on up. This can sometimes be a decent tradeoff for improved resolution down where you need it.

What size is the table you are working with? What range is it covering?

I still believe that if the engine is running well "here" but not "there" some condition is different between the two :beers:

Hey Steve, I know you werent implying anything and sorry if I led you to think I thought you were...if that makes sense.

Just want to say that I appreciate the time you and Doug take to write all this stuff up. You guys are the go-to EFI guys :thumbsup: :beers:


Just to refresh everybody on the situation - the car runs EXCELLENT, no issues other than me trying to force a large cam to run at very low rpms. Its just a little bucky down low, and trying to see what I can do with EFI about this. The truth is, probably nothing b/c this is really a mechanical issue the way I see it. The instructions even say, your motor must be in good mechanical condition for this. Well, it really sorta isnt by the way I'm driving it. Its just my driving style, and maybe I need to just keep the revs higher and learn that's the consquences of a larger performance cam on a narrower LSA.

Biggest issue is this:

If your just coasting or using the throttle very lightly in any gear, feathering the throttle to maintain speed...the car start to buck/surge from about 2000rpms and down. BUT. If you give it gas, it "clears out" and the SOB does fine even down to 1200rpms :confused: Obviously, things gets worse in 5th/OD.

This is what I believe is reversion pushing back up into the intact tract at low rpm. Over 2000rpm - smooth sailing. Last time out, I had the laptop hooked-up, and when the engine was bucking, I was looking at the AFR table to see where this was happening. I just fattened that area up to 13:1, and this was in a high vac area of the table. I'm gonna play with it some more...its just too fun.

Steve, did you check out the Holley EFI software? You can d-load it from Holley.

Vince I have no idea if this would effect anything or not....But in your other post you mention a vacuum leak in your booster....Do you believe that could be creating any issues?

Vince I have no idea if this would effect anything or not....But in your other post you mention a vacuum leak in your booster....Do you believe that could be creating any issues?

Bill, funny you mention that. I changed that thing out today, and yes it was leaking. Only difference was when I hit the brake pedal I almost went through the windsheild :D. The ecu compensates for air leaks. Made no difference in how the engines runs.

But I will say this. I focused a little more on my tune (and what Steve said) and yes, got a tune that I like...13:1 under 2000 rpms, and 15:1 in the cruise zone. The 15:1 is a rather small group of cells, 9 of them in a sea of 13:1. Its a beautiful thing...watching the little circle float over the the 15:1 zone, then just drift to the 13:1's when the rpms get lower or load increases. I like the way the AFR gradually transitions from 15 to 13, ist not like an abrubt change. You get alot of 14's and 13 automatically down to the 13.0. I would love a screenshot of this, and frame it, and hang it on my l/r wall :D

On decel, I was also getting some herky-jerky. Found out that the motor didnt like alot of timing on decel. Took it from 50* (cruise timing) to 34*, and she smoothed out.

Couple of other interesting tidbits. Gotta love tuning the idle. The ecu will hold the motor at a steady RPM - this is a good thing, so you can really see the impact the changes have made. Went to the AFR table, tried 13, 14, 15, 16...she likes 15. She also likes 40* of idle timing. I was just going by the lowest map reading, which is about 62.

Good stuff folks!!!!

I understand what the engine likes with a carb at idle. Give it more/less fuel or timing and the rpms reacts letting you know which way to go. If the ecu holds the rpm and you make changes at idle, how do you know the engine likes it? (remember I have only been learning about efi for a few weeks!)

I understand what the engine likes with a carb at idle. Give it more/less fuel or timing and the rpms reacts letting you know which way to go. If the ecu holds the rpm and you make changes at idle, how do you know the engine likes it? (remember I have only been learning about efi for a few weeks!)

I look at the MAP reading (manifold absolute pressure). I like a vacuum gauage in reverse. The lower the #, the better.

What Vince said... remember that the computer is opening and closing the throttle to maintain RPM. So lower MAP is higher vacuum and less throttle needed to hold that RPM.

Would the MAP reading also help with tuning cruise?

Would the MAP reading also help with tuning cruise?
Did we cover that earlier in this thread? Or am I recalling a PM exchange?

Yes the MAP reading can be used in all the same ways you might use a vacuum gauge. The better the engine runs the lower the load which maps directly into reduced MAP for the same constant speed.

When you have several indicators available you want to select one to use as primary based on sensitivity and corellation to what you are measuring. Directly related indicators are favored over secondary affects for example. Sometimes you may choose a less sensitive indicator to reduce noise in the measurement.

Applying that theory to the MAP indicator for cruise... MAP is not bad but may not be quite as sensitive for fine tuning as fuel flow. Also when you get lower in the RPM band it is possible to get more noise on the MAP indicator. This is actually a good thing to check for as it can drive the EFI computer nuts trying to sort it all out. Kinda a computer "will the real MAP please stand up" (for those of you old enough to remember a certain television game show - To Tell The Truth). This problem is why some folks believe you cannot run Speed/Density with big cams and have to run Alpha-N. There are tricks to make it better - like damper restriction orofices and damper chambers. This may also be a factor of where MAP is tapped in.

So MAP would be my second choice for tuning cruise.

If you want to have tuning sucess with EFI, you have to know how to tune a motor in general. Instead of looking at MAP, lbs/hr, etc, I focuus on AFR. Run the leanest AFR you can till you feel the car sputter, and then back off a bit. Then, go to the spark table, add a bit more spark in that area, and try leaning out the AFR again.

Once you get the AFR leaned out as far as you can, the lbs/hr will be minimized.

Target AFRs:
IDLE - anywhere from 13 to 15.5:1 = I'm at 15:1
CRUISE - anywhere from 14-16:1 = " " 15:1, and will try 16:1 again
WOT - anywhere from 12-13:1 = " " 12.5

Target spark:
IDLE - alot, depending on cam = I'm at 40*
CRUISE - alot, = I'm at 50*
WOT - 34*, gave me best times at the strip last time out, so I left it here. Probably pays to mess with this again since some things changed (new induction, different ignition).


At idle, I did use the map reading and looked for the highest/most stable value there = sorta like using a vac gauge. See where the engine is operating, and change the AFR at this points, then add/remove some spark. Easy and fun to do.

Keep in mind, your starting with a file or "tune" to begin with that is likely about 90% "there". Could just leave it here and it will run great. But, you paid for EFI, and you need to get in there and learn IMO. I'm still learning, and will be for a while. The last 10% is for your motor, why not take advantge? One small change last time out netted 1.6 mpg's. I wonder how many other small changes are still available for more mpg's.

This all said, the self-tuning feature is what makes this all a pleasure. Self-tuning means that you input the desired AFR, and the computer does what it takes to get to that target AFR. Prior systems required YOU to go to the fuel table and manually input the lbs/hr to hit the desired AFR. I dont think I would of had the patience or skill to do that, so I never would of even have gotten involved. But, even the older systems like the Commanders had base tunes that are almost there anyway...so maybe I would of gotten involved anyway - if the price was right :D

500 mile update.

Idles so smooth that it feels like a different motor. Got me thinking if I upgraded to sequential it would be smoother still, but cant imagine it any better as is. Top-end feels super strong. Drives excellent, and seems to be getting better and better. I've been doing too much highway, which hasnt allowed the system to learn all the other areas it needs to learn. Did alot of backroads, and to my suprise its beginning to pull 5th gear excellent at low rpms (1500). I think it will get smoother as time goes on. Wonder if sequential would help down here???

Ironically, you know what really smoothed things out and made a real big difference in performance? Timing control! I learned that my motor liked 40* at idle, it NEEDED 50* at cruise vs the 34* I was running. And most interestingly, I needed to cut the timing WAY back on decel. It was causing alot of the bucking/bouncing on decel in gear. It was 50* on decel, which would simulate vac advance on manifold. Well, it was the cause of that roughness. She wants about 30* on decel. Never would of guessed it. Looking back, this is why I didnt like vac adv on my prior setup...I thought the motor ran smoother w/o it hooked up - it did!

Its all good fellas. Loving the way this thing runs. Looks like I may be keeping this cam in there for a while, cause I was concerned for a while that it may of needed to come out. I will be looking into sequential - why not right, other than the cost. Not sure if I like the idea of running a MSD box though, just dont want excess stuff than can leave me stranded. Not sure if my alt. can handle the additional load either. Think an alt. upgrade may not be a bad idea, although it's putting out 13.6-13.8 - any suggestions???

Would like to see what #'s this will turn out the track. My guess is that the motor will like this high-rise intake and the additional cfms. Will try and get down there within a month or so.

Yup, amazing what a constant fuel supply that is not dependent on particular pressures and flows will do isn't it? And not only constant but well atomized under all conditions too.

Not to mention even fuel distribution to all cylinders.

Then there is the ability to roll timing in and out and fuel in and out using relationships that are not exactly simple linear functions.

Gotta love EFI :yes:

I strongly second your prior comments about knowing how to tune in general. I put a carb and HEI on my engine as a "temporary" solution until I can go EFI. That was a number of years ago and I am still running them. But the learning that has taken place in the meantime will be priceless when I finally do install the EFI and start the tuning process.

Quite interesting your observations about timing and deceleration.

that alt is weak. the range is supposed to be 13.8 to 14.2. If you're running an Optima battery you might leave it though. they do not like being overcharged.

Have you noticed lower engine temperatures with the timing so far advanced? Is there a down side to that much advance other then possible detonation under load?
I did an idle test today and also found my best idle and highest vacuum was around 38-40 degrees advanced. I had never gone past 32 before at idle.
X2 on the decel/timing correlation. Interesting for sure.

Would assume that decel issue is more prevalent with a stick car. Never really noticed anything like that with the automatic.

that alt is weak. the range is supposed to be 13.8 to 14.2. If you're running an Optima battery you might leave it though. they do not like being overcharged.

I actually do have an Optima battery. Voltage will occassionally drop to 13.5 and then go up. Not sure if this will cause a problem though. Definietly dont want to add more load to this.

Have you noticed lower engine temperatures with the timing so far advanced? Is there a down side to that much advance other then possible detonation under load?
I did an idle test today and also found my best idle and highest vacuum was around 38-40 degrees advanced. I had never gone past 32 before at idle.
X2 on the decel/timing correlation. Interesting for sure.

Didnt notice anything...car always ran cool. I've had so much timing for so long I honestly cant remember how the motor(s) ran with less timing.

We once ran a test just to see how much timing was needed at idle... IIRC the RPMs kept increasing up to about 40*. Increasing it further did not seem to make any difference.

What would be *really* cool is to have a fast pressure transducer in the cylinder so we could track pressures against engine operation. Then we could tune the timing to achieve max cylinder pressure at the optimal 20* ATDC. That is what we need to achieve, the rub is getting there depends on how fast the mixture burns which is far from constant or linear (it changes with pressure, mixture strength, mixture turbulence, and effectively engine operating speed).

that alt is weak. the range is supposed to be 13.8 to 14.2. If you're running an Optima battery you might leave it though. they do not like being overcharged.
Maybe... the voltage numbers did not grab my attention as being very off.

What I would do is perform a test:
1. Engine running at idle
2. Turn on head lights, heater fan, and engine cooling fans (if electric)
3. Measure voltage at supply bus point to ground
4. Increase engine RPMs to 2000
5. Measure voltage at supply bus point to ground again

If the measurement in #5 is greater than in #3 your alternator is not keeping up with demand at idle and needs to be upgraded. Otherwise you probably just have a normal under load voltage drop if you are not getting the expected 13.8-14.2v.

I started another thread in electrical, but with the headlights on and blower motor on, voltage drops to 12.8 and pretty much stays there even when revving. Not that I drive alot with the headlights on AND the blower, but it shows that the current system is marginal.

Vince....

Even if the voltage is abit low....maintaining consistent voltage is just as important. I didn't read the entire thread but...have you checked voltage at the battery and back of the alternator with a DVM?

Dennis, I've been going by the voltage readings through a voltmeter that I have hooked-up to the fuse panel, and the voltmeter in the EFI system which is hooked directly to the batter. Both read the same.

Havent put a meter on the back of the alt, but will do that.

I agree with Dennis 100% you want "consistent" voltage, but what you are seeing, if it is not doing anything odd you can see, is probably fine. Meaning not ideal, but if it isn't causing any problems you can see, it just being compensated by the EFI voltage compensation.

Cool - the ECU has "closed loop" for voltage too??? :D

12.8 is not enough. That alt is dead or undersize.

I'm going to do a pictoral thread on a home alt rebuild soon. DB Electrical and others have kits and it ain't rocket science if you know what I mean.

he he he

In a manner of speaking yes it does. What it really does is tweak the injector opening time a bit to compensate for the slower speeds caused by the reduced voltage. It is all really very technical ;)

12.8 is not enough. That alt is dead or undersize.

I'm going to do a pictoral thread on a home alt rebuild soon. DB Electrical and others have kits and it ain't rocket science if you know what I mean.


Yea, something is wrong. The system voltage sould be 14V (about). A good question is how much the ECU can compensate for the change in system voltage.

Not that the ECU can calculate it's way out of an injector that can't build enough current due to lack of voltage. It is after all volts times seconds that count in the injector.

So which dies first, the compensation table or the injector?

Ron

That 12.8 wasnt even with the high beams on...think an upgrade is in order for sure.

One other thing I want to hear your guys input on. Need to get the tank sumped. Gonna try a Comp. Eng. sump, forward mounted towards the front of the tank, with the connections facing the differential. Just think it will look better, and reduce the amount of needed fuel line. Will only cut a single ~2" hole into the main tank, rather that swiss-cheese it as the instructions suggest. Going to try and create a "pocket" to hold fuel. I would do a surge tank, but the idea of 2 electric pumps doesnt sit well w/me - one is bad enough!

See any reason why one 2" hole would not be sufficent? Should create the nice "pocket" that I'm looking for.

Hah! Did it, rebuilt my own alt. It wasn't even very hard. Now charging at 14.0 with the A/C on Max and the hi beams on. I took a bunch of pics, see if I can get it posted in the next couple days.

Putting the sump to the front will definitely look a lot cleaner. One 2" hole should do it. The minimum amount is best. Less opening for the fuel to leave the sump.
Are you thinking put the 2" in the center of the sump? That way accel, decel, and through the curves will have an equal opportunity. I like it. I think the larger the sump the more forgiving it will be. Do you know what the capacity is of your proposed sump?
Squido

Kinda think the smaller holes might offer better slosh control. As for area removed.

2" hole = 3.142 sq in
1" hole = .7855 sq in (4 holes equiv)
3/4" hole = .4418 sq in (7 holes equiv)

Putting the sump to the front will definitely look a lot cleaner. One 2" hole should do it. The minimum amount is best. Less opening for the fuel to leave the sump.
Are you thinking put the 2" in the center of the sump? That way accel, decel, and through the curves will have an equal opportunity. I like it. I think the larger the sump the more forgiving it will be. Do you know what the capacity is of your proposed sump?
Squido

I was thinking of the hole in the center of the sump, for "equal opportunity" as you say. Maybe put the hole a little more forward actually, as that will keep more fuel in the pocket. The more rear the hole, the easier it will be for fuel to escape.

Hell, why not just a single 1/2-3/4-1" hole? I would think even better fuel control as less fuel will enter/exit. Have to also remember, when the car accelerates, all the fuel in the tank will go backwards for about a sec, then all come forward again immediatley. No way can a motor drain that sump out in that sort period a time.


Looks like about a 1/2 gallon maybe?
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/cee-4040_w.jpg

If going with a reverse mount sump, I'd think about drilling the fill hole biased to the front. That way, on acceleration, as fuel rushes back, area between tank and sump will act as a baffle to capture fuel.

so you're going to install that on the bottom front of the tank with the fittings facing forward? how much ground clearance will you have?

...One other thing I want to hear your guys input on. Need to get the tank sumped. Gonna try a Comp. Eng. sump, forward mounted towards the front of the tank, with the connections facing the differential. Just think it will look better, and reduce the amount of needed fuel line. Will only cut a single ~2" hole into the main tank, rather that swiss-cheese it as the instructions suggest. Going to try and create a "pocket" to hold fuel. I would do a surge tank, but the idea of 2 electric pumps doesnt sit well w/me - one is bad enough!

See any reason why one 2" hole would not be sufficent? Should create the nice "pocket" that I'm looking for.
So by now it should not be a secret that I really don't like the idea of sumps :yes: I would bet you cannot find an OEM EFI solution using a sump sticking out of the bottom of the tank.

And I don't much like having multiple electric fuel pumps either.

...Have to also remember, when the car accelerates, all the fuel in the tank will go backwards for about a sec, then all come forward again immediatley. No way can a motor drain that sump out in that sort period a time.

Ummm... think about this one again. Is the driver only pushed backwards for a second? Neither is the fuel. The fuel will slosh back and stay there so long as the car is accelerating.

Many of the OEM solutions use a basic plastic tray on the bottom of the tank. This tray utilizes concentric channels around the outside for the fuel to flow into the middle where the pickup is. So fuel enters on one end and runs through a walled passage all the way down and around the other end back up most of the way to the end it entered on to get to the inside. Think of it as circular flow with interlocking left/right elements. Sort of a fuel tank 69. This solution probably works for basic street applications and drivers. You could probably cannabilize one from a wrecking yard and wrangle it into your tank if you wanted.

Next up on the scale of functionality is the fuel pump module. Think of this as an integrated surge tank inside the tank. The OEMs avoid a second electric pump by using a jet pump. This works the same way basic paint spray guns work. They shoot a jet of fuel across the intake of the module and it pulls fuel from the tank into the module. This type of setup can also be worked into the stock tank, especially with the right fabrication of a sealing lid replacing the original sender setup.

You can see what I did for a module by searching here on TC for "MU-2021". Jason (ss396boy) was working on building his own module setup using an external fuel pump and got pretty far. Last I heard his project had taken a back seat to home projects though.

If you do go the route of adding on an external sump... the hole size is probably not that critical. It's location should be centered in the *volume* of the sump. Think of it not as the hole filling the sump (even though it does) but as the lack of hole controlling slosh. Note that the fuel pickup location is still just as critical on the sump because fuel is still moving around. Especially since the type of sump you are proposing is still relatively wide and flat and thus perfect for sloshing.

That is true. If you pull 1 g (which on a 10 sec car wouldn't be for long, but anyhow) and had half a tank of fuel, the fuel would be in the back half of the tank vertically (in theory). Which is why a drag cell has outlets towards the back.

So as Steve says, the position is still important.

OE's have many stringent requirements they have to meet for everything, so their solutions have to work well and be all-encompassing. If you can integrate them in, that is always a neat thing to do.

For a 10 second old musclecar, making 10 second passes with a 1/4 tank of gas isn't something I'd do as a matter of practice, but the better you make things, the less problems you'll have.

I used to have a small forward feeding sump like you are looking at (smaller volume even) and never had a problem but I was running 12.0's with that and didn't run with a near empty tank.


As an aside, I was dynoing someone notable's 555 on the dyno and the dyno shop let the tank run out of gas during a WOT pull. Pressure went from 45 to about nothing. The EFI immediately added 100% more fuel closed loop and the learning which was enabled added a ton too, in a matter of 1-2 seconds. Might have saved his engine. Not something you want to do on a regular basis..

I dont really "like" most of the options proposed either, just have to do what I think will give the best overall results. I looked at the MU-2021, but was under the impression that arrangement was good for maybe 400-500HP??? I'm probably around 625-650. If it wasnt for having to run a 2nd electric pump, I'd look into the surge tank deal. A $1000.00 + aftermarket tank/solution is out of the question, especially if it doesnt work any better than what I'm thinking of doing.

Tom - the sump is only 3" deep...no where near the ground. Diff will still be alot closer to the ground.

Point is that if I were considering a solution in the higher power regions... I would fabricate up my own version of a module setup. Part of my thinking is if GM uses this pump concept to get fuel from one tank to a totally different tank on Corvettes, then it can probably work for me in my A-body.

My bet is you could leverage hardware from any number of OEM module setups just with a bigger pump and feed lines to make higher HP work. The MU-2021 for example would accept a 255 LPH pump without modifications of any sort. To go up higher than 255 LPH I might look at one of the GM setups with the bucket/rods/springs so I could fab up my own sender lid for the larger feed/return lines and hang whatever pump I wanted in the bucket. Might allow one to pick up a cheaper fuel module to cannibalize that way too.

My '93 Corvette used the plastic tray and still had fuel starvation issues while cornering if I had a 1/4 tank or less. The tray would improve pickup compared to nothing however. I am curious what a custom tank such as Rick's does to control the fuel.

I will not claim they all do this... but hot rod tanks use baffle walls with small gaps top and bottom. So they will prevent initial major slosh but still allow movement of fuel. They also will not maintain any higher fuel level in the "well" than a stock tank.

Part of what is cool about the fuel modules is they can maintain a higher level of fuel than is in the tank.

Some track time:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329397

Some track time:
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329397

But.. but... everyone knows carbs make more power! :D

Update:

Call me crazy...I changed cams!

B/c in the end, not even EFI can "fix" a cam that's too big for the street.

Out came the XR286R, and in went a Cammotion 234/236 .600 112LSA HR cam, but used my EZ-Roll SR lifters tight-lashed (.006 hot), and now we have the infamous "hybrid" setup. I tried as best as I could to get that XR286R to run under 2000 smoothly, and it just wasnt happening. I tried different intakes, carbs, timing curves, and ultimately EFI. It still wanted to buck/surge at very low rpms. Its just MY driving style isnt conducive to this cam (my typical driving rpm is from idle to 2000rpms). So I install this 234/236 cam that actually belonged to Joe (GRN69CHV), and he ran 117mph with this cam in a hurt 454 with an auto trans. He sold the cam to Gene (427L88), and I bought it back from Gene - crazy huh? I figure I should still be able to get into the 120mph range. To my suprise, I gained 5" of vacuum (15") at a 100rpm less idle speed of 900. Went for a drive, man does she drive sweet! I actually went around a slow turn in 5th gear at about 1100 rpms! I can now drive the car the way I like. I started a new tune again from Holley, and it drives unbelievable right off the bat. No surging/bucking, nothing. Now, its not new car smooth mind you, but VERY VERY street friendly. Hey, the XR286 is a great street cam also, so long as you keep the motor in a low enough gear, but I dont want to drive around at 2000-2500 rpms all the time. This would be the PERFECT cam in a auto car or even a manual car that sees fast roads compared to my slow backroads. I HIGHLY recommend this cam - it flat-out just kicks-$ss everytime its tried.

The new cam pulls to 6200 easily, but I'm guessing pk power is probably around what, 5700-5800? Probably shift around 6000. I honestly cant say it feels any slower around town at all, which includes some brief WOT blasts. But as mentioned, driveability increased exponentially. Midrange tq increased, which I think the tall 3rd gear of the TKO will like. I was real worried that taking the XR286 out of the motor would essentially cut the n#ts off of the thing, but so far it feels good.

I plan on hitting the track REAL soon. VERY curious to see the difference between a 248/254 .654/660 110LSA and a 234/236 .600 112LSA cam will have on this motor at the strip. Anybody want to take a guess?

Crazy....

Please don't tell me I have that in my future!

I started a new tune again from Holley, and it drives unbelievable right off the bat.

Do you mean that you let it relearn with a whole new map, or did you get one from Holley (Doug)?

Do you mean that you let it relearn with a whole new map, or did you get one from Holley (Doug)?

Just started a new tune, the Holley systems come with a couple of tunes that are 90% there. Yes, it will relearn the maps to the new "template" that was loaded, but its so seamless it feels 100% right from the get-go.

Update:

Call me crazy...I changed cams!

B/c in the end, not even EFI can "fix" a cam that's too big for the street.

Out came the XR286R, and in went a Cammotion 234/236 .600 112LSA HR cam, but used my EZ-Roll SR lifters tight-lashed (.006 hot), and now we have the infamous "hybrid" setup. I tried as best as I could to get that XR286R to run under 2000 smoothly, and it just wasnt happening. I tried different intakes, carbs, timing curves, and ultimately EFI. It still wanted to buck/surge at very low rpms.

With all due respect, i´m not calling you crazy but wouldn´t it been better to just change the cam in first place :p Lol

Serioulsy though, Vinny this has been a great read. I´d love to go efi myself, just the cost of it that´s keeping me from it. And my prosystems carb :D

With all due respect, i´m not calling you crazy but wouldn´t it been better to just change the cam in first place :p Lol

Serioulsy though, Vinny this has been a great read. I´d love to go efi myself, just the cost of it that´s keeping me from it. And my prosystems carb :D


Well, my EFI conversion really wasnt just to try an tame a cam. I just happen to like tuning and it was a bit frustrating with carb...including Prosystems carbs.

Honestly, I'm still impressed with just starting the car up, and hearing the motor go from a fast idle, and slowly drops to the idle speed - that in itself was worth it!

Well, my EFI conversion really wasnt just to try an tame a cam. I just happen to like tuning and it was a bit frustrating with carb...including Prosystems carbs.

Honestly, I'm still impressed with just starting the car up, and hearing the motor go from a fast idle, and slowly drops to the idle speed - that in itself was worth it!

i have all these plans of drilling and tapping my 4777 for set screws this winter.. but honestly.. i think im only going to do the HSAB's because i dont want to rely on a wire in them to keep it richened up lol. other than that. im leaving it be. im also done with screwing with fuel leaks and gas everywhere from removing the bowls. hard starts, stumbles. lol.

its in my best interest to just swap to an LSx with factory pcm and be done.

this thread is great motorvation for me to do so, so thanks!

aaron

i have all these plans of drilling and tapping my 4777 for set screws this winter.. but honestly.. i think im only going to do the HSAB's because i dont want to rely on a wire in them to keep it richened up lol. other than that. im leaving it be. im also done with screwing with fuel leaks and gas everywhere from removing the bowls. hard starts, stumbles. lol.

its in my best interest to just swap to an LSx with factory pcm and be done.

this thread is great motorvation for me to do so, so thanks!

aaron

I'm into this motor way too deep to consider an LS swap. But if this thing were to blow-up, I'd be taking a hard look at them. I like the idea of a junkyard 4.8/5.3 turbo setup.

PS - once you start tinkering with setscrews, etc, you will slowly begin to lose your sanity. For me, it ended up with EFI.

I'm into this motor way too deep to consider an LS swap. But if this thing were to blow-up, I'd be taking a hard look at them. I like the idea of a junkyard 4.8/5.3 turbo setup.

PS - once you start tinkering with setscrews, etc, you will slowly begin to lose your sanity. For me, it ended up with EFI.

i fully understand where you are at. i have a lot into my engine, so i wouldnt just scrap it, i would like to put it into another vehicle, or go another direction, well see when the time comes..

as for an lsx.. i have an 04 GTO with an LS1 in it. i love it. i love it so much, i only put 1000 miles on my chevelle this year, this time last year i had over 6000...
i am one of about 3 ppl in the group of friends who doesnt have a modified LSx.. my friends built a turbo 4.8l 2010 silverado, on 12PSI and with a crappy 4000 converter it went 12.1 @ 111 last week.. it now has a tighter converter and 15psi of boost, and is an Animal!

but EFI if definelty nice, and can be fun to tune!

aaron

69 chvl,

did you ever try to do an alpha-N speed density blend at low rpms to help with the big cam?

69 chvl,

did you ever try to do an alpha-N speed density blend at low rpms to help with the big cam?

I actually thought about that, but for whatever reason I was under the impression that you shouldnt run Alpha-N unless absolutley necessary. Maybe Doug can comment on that.

I actually thought about that, but for whatever reason I was under the impression that you shouldnt run Alpha-N unless absolutley necessary. Maybe Doug can comment on that.

I doubt Alpha-N helps this deal. It's not a case of "unsteady fueling/A/F ratio) which I think he could attest too by looking at the A/F which should be pretty steady as shown by the average 02 reading. I'd be curious if Vince ran sequential instead of bank to bank (or pair firing is his case). But I doubt that would help much either.

The issue is just reversion which unless you switch to an IR manifold, or possibly change the manifold to a very long runner design, is just there. If you want to have a manual trans run very smooth under load at 1500 RPM, there is just so much cam you can have. You have diluted, varying intake charges, and other issues.

People like Jim Moore have commented the EFI has smoothed his big cam out (relatively speaking), but there is only so much you can do. It won't make a 250@.050 cam idle like a 230@.050 cam. It won't hesitate, stumble, etc with EFI, but if you want it to be "smooth" at very low RPM with a manual trans, there is only so much you can do.

69 chvl,

did you ever try to do an alpha-N speed density blend at low rpms to help with the big cam?

The main time I run alpha-N is when i have almost no vacuum, no resolution due to low manifold vacuum. I have one race car running speed density with a cam of around 288@.050. Not for the faint of heart tuning, but runs fine. Certainly that car isn't meant to get groceries... Just make big HP.

I've heard Vince's motor (s) run in numerous forms. Current mode with the EFI and the smaller cam sounds very good. It has a distinct tuned sound to it running now when he lays into it. We'll know in a couple hours. I'd bet it will still run 121-122 on the top end.

PS - once you start tinkering with setscrews, etc, you will slowly begin to lose your sanity. For me, it ended up with EFI.

LOL, I'm beginning to hate you now. :D

I recently removed my A/F meter, and am now tuning it for driveability only. Got it real close where it feels great - but I'm sure when I hook the meter back up it will show me my faults in all their glory.

I'll let Vince give you the full run down, but street night, non-prepped track, leaving from idle : 11.62 / 123.2 on a slick track with 1.80 60' times. 234/236, .600/.610, 112 lsa cam that pulls 15" vac at idle, in complete street form including 3" air cleaner installed.

LOL, I'm beginning to hate you now. :D

I recently removed my A/F meter, and am now tuning it for driveability only. Got it real close where it feels great - but I'm sure when I hook the meter back up it will show me my faults in all their glory.

Mark, fwiw, I gave up on using the LM2 except to validate AFR at WOT.

Its all good...

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331359

That´s just great ! :-) Nice to hear your having a cake and eating it too.
Can we look forward to another post about mpg too ?

That's not a bad time and speed! The 112 LSA might help that little cam's low RPM performance quite a bit. Nice vacuum numbers, also! Brakes weren't too bad before, but they're probably really nice now.

It's really going to be interesting to find out what my cam will do. It's a less aggressive Comp Magnum on 112LSA, so it might be a little better down low than your 110LSA bigger cam.

It'll be a little while longer though because my transmission money went to another Harley and some new Pella windows. Maybe next spring.

Nice... That is truly impressive. I would never use my car with its cam as a "driver".
Next year when I'm in PA I'll have to come take a ride.

Nice... That is truly impressive. I would never use my car with its cam as a "driver".
Next year when I'm in PA I'll have to come take a ride.

Just say when...dinner is on me!

Vince, the more you tune and play with this system the more I'm thinking this would be a great setup for mine. Impressive numbers :thumbsup: Now I'm really curious to see what kind of MPG's you can get.

Vince, the more you tune and play with this system the more I'm thinking this would be a great setup for mine. Impressive numbers :thumbsup: Now I'm really curious to see what kind of MPG's you can get.

Jeff, make no mistake, the car is still a PIG in terms of gas mileage. Just no way around it. Even if the highway mileage is say 17-18-19, really useless in my case as I pretty much just drive around town. Only highway I see is to and from the track. The around town mileage would be interesting to see...I would hazzard a guess of maybe 10?

Other than that, it really does run flawless, and I couldnt be more pleased. So much nicer to be able to take a nice slow curve in 5th gear and not have to downshift!

Holley does offer a gauge that ties into the wiring of the ECU and displays any fuction you want. I think I saw somewhere that mileage is displayed. THAT would be cool, cause then you could keep the motor in that sweet spot easily - know anything about that Doug?

You need to have an E trans (4L60/80E) for the mpg to read out. You could just show the "fuel flow" on it and it serves basically the same purpose.

Just wanted to give a ~1000 mile update. Things runs so good ALL the time, its really amazing. I feel like I need to do something, but there's nothing to do! Just bolted the system on, and it did everything its self. Car has never bogged, sputtered, nothing. Just ran perfect the whole time from the moment I turned the key for the 1st time. The response is RAZOR sharp. Idle, unbelieveably stable - so much so that coming off of a 6000 rpm blast to idle, you kinda think its gonna stall, but it just goes right back to 900 rpms and purrs.

If your considering EFI - dont even hesitate on this system. I can honestly say, this was the best mod I've done to the car. Next would be the TKO.


I like the optional 5.7" LCD display Holley offers, think I'd like to get that. Will replace the mechanical gauges I have now and use this as a monitor. Other than that, guess its time to start going through the body/interior/chassis.

Still have to figure out what I'm going to do with the fuel system (module, surge, sump, etc), but that's really about it. If I had a mechanical fuel pump, I would probably use that to feed a small surge tank in the engine bay. B/c my 502 has no mechancial pump provision, I would need to run 2 electric pumps if doing the surge tank deal. Dont really like that option at this point.

Good to here your Holley efi is working great and proving itself. I hope I have the same luck. Nice to see your putting some miles on it.
So with your fuel system and factory tank you have had no fuel problems?
This has been a great thread . Thanks for all the good info.

Good to here your Holley efi is working great and proving itself. I hope I have the same luck. Nice to see your putting some miles on it.
So with your fuel system and factory tank you have had no fuel problems?
This has been a great thread . Thanks for all the good info.


Factory tank/pick-up, etc. No problems actaully. BUT - I dont run it lower than a 1/3 of a tank for now. B/c the fuel pump is mounted on the frame rail below the tank, fuel just gravity flows to the pump big time. If I take the fuel line off the pump, I have a serious -8 gusher, and I use a hose pincher to stop it. This is why I think just a sump would work pretty good, just not sure if I like the look of it.

I know I'm new here and this isn't the best spot to suggest it

but when does "efi" get its own heading

instead of that dinky little sub heading?


There seems to be enough interest.




Excellent point! :hurray:

No "crickets" or "cobwebs" on this forum's topics! :thumbsup:

i know this is an old thread (kind of) just wanted to say looks good and now i know i have someone 2 hour away from me that can help me when i figure out what the hell i am going to do..lol

You wont need any help...its just too easy to install. Hardest part for me was staring at the engine compartment for 2 days figuring out how to run the harness. If I didnt have a manual trans (z-bar mechanism), I would have had the layout done in a few minutes. Ended-up with the wiring on the pass side.

... Hardest part for me was staring at the engine compartment for 2 days figuring out how to run the harness...
Dang Vince, THAT sounds like something I would do :yes:
:beers:

Vince i need to find a motor first..lol thats why i am on the fence :)

Vince i need to find a motor first..lol thats why i am on the fence :)

If I were looking for motors, I would definitely be taking a hard look at the 6.0 ls motors out of the junkyards. I would use the factory intake or a cheap corvette/camaro intake along with some injectors, and the Holley EFI setup, even though the factory ECU can be used. By using the Holley ECU kit and factory EFI hardware, you dont need to buy an intake, carb, msd box. The 6.0's are making GREAT power for cheap.

If I were looking for motors, I would definitely be taking a hard look at the 6.0 ls motors out of the junkyards. I would use the factory intake or a cheap corvette/camaro intake along with some injectors, and the Holley EFI setup, even though the factory ECU can be used. By using the Holley ECU kit and factory EFI hardware, you dont need to buy an intake, carb, msd box. The 6.0's are making GREAT power for cheap.

All good stuff, no doubt or objection....but there is a certain cool(er) factor of a stroked EFI BB. I know, i know...the LS is a god and all that stuff....but if everyone is a god, then who is really a god...given that it seems that literally everyone is going LS and eventually, even though they make great power and are a killer engine, its going to have me rolling my eyes at car shows and I will breeze past them because they are and will continue to be everywhere. I would stop at your EFI'd BB, I would pass right by a 6.0, likely while commenting on how ugly they are (unless, like Jodys car, you have tons of custom billet work, twin turbos, custom intake and all that stuff)

If you do the LS deal....please keep your hood shut and lie. :D Its like a dude with stuffed pants with the ladies. It can be a disappointment when the hood opens and they spot that cute little thing. ;)

^ I'm with stupid

sneaky peak:

l:)l:)l:)l:) Thanks I needed that today.

If you do the LS deal....please keep your hood shut and lie. :D Its like a dude with stuffed pants with the ladies. It can be a disappointment when the hood opens and they spot that cute little thing. ;)

We'll, there is some BB's here that couldnt get out of there own way when dropping the hammer. Couple guy's LS motors here would embarrass alot of BB's.

As they say - size isnt everything.

^ I'm with stupid

sneaky peak:

:thumbsup: sickening.

Call me anything ya want, just dont call me Shirley....unless you already bought me dinner.

LS/Holley EFI :hurray:

Mega-power, Mega-heads, Mega-strength to weight ratio, Mega-affordable, awesome MPG, no more Fred Flintstone carbs...


Can't argue with all that...logic is logic...& fast is fast!! :beers:

If I were looking for motors, I would definitely be taking a hard look at the 6.0 ls motors out of the junkyards.

I would use the factory intake or a cheap corvette/camaro intake along with some injectors, and the Holley EFI setup

By using the Holley ECU kit and factory EFI hardware, you dont need to buy an intake, carb, msd box.


The 6.0's are making GREAT power for cheap.


And don't forget...great MPG! :thumbsup:

Would like to know are there any performance gains can be made with a EFI BB setup switching to aluminum heads from cast iron.?

Would like to know are there any performance gains can be made with a EFI BB setup switching to aluminum heads from cast iron.?

Sure...EFI motor respond to mods just like any other motor.

Except here, no rejetting req'd - the computer recalibrates to maintain the proper AFR :thumbsup:

Stupid is as stupid does...an EFI BBC is cool!

If all I want to do is go fast, I wouldn't own a tank, I wouldn't have a manual trans and it wouldn't be EFI. BBC's just belong in Chevelles. EFI and manual trans make them fun to drive.

Even a slow turd is better than no turd at all! I have a turd BBC in my Chevelle now, and that's why I'm going with an EFI 502 BBC. I might not even make it to the track, so my 502 will be plenty fast.

Believe me Mark, our motors are so similar its uncanny, and if yours runs anything like mine, your in for a pleasant surprise. Actually, your cam in much larger than mine, so yours should run even harder up top!

Hey Jim, I have the Holley setup as well and was wondering what you did for the fuel connections. It looks like you replaced the included hose barbs with -6 AN connections. I'm assuming -6 male on the motor side but what did you use on the other? Do you still have a hard fuel line? I have two 3/8" lines (feed/return) and am trying to work out the plumbing.

It also looks like you replaced the crossover tubes? Any specific reason?



http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm436/540Hotrod/555EFI.jpg

JIM

Great thread! Read the whole thread over the last few hours and really learned a lot. We're getting ready to order and install the Avenger MPFI on the small block in my wife's wagon. Thanks for taking the time to post it!
Tom