Does locked out timing need a start retard? [Archive] - Chevelle Tech

: Does locked out timing need a start retard?


bracketchev1221
Jun 14th, 10, 8:45 AM
After much thought, I'm thinking of trying to lock out the timing again at 40 degrees. The last time I did this I chipped both a flexplate and the starter. This was with a 25 degree start retard, and cranking with the ignition on. I have since heard from MSD to use only a 10 degree retard, so I don't know if that hurt it. I have also heard others, cranking and throwing the switch, which is how I had always done it before the start retard and after I took it out. I would like to try the locked out again with no start retard and crank and flip the switch. Am I just asking for broken parts again?

Calculated Risk
Jun 14th, 10, 8:57 AM
Do you phase your rotor? If not, then a 25 degree retard can be problematic if your rotor is already away from the terminal, especially on a small diameter cap.

The 10 degree is probably better suited, Personally i don't use a start retard. we have 2 small blocks with 14:1ish compression and locked timing at 38 degrees, the bigblock is 598ci with 14.8:1, it's had carbs an mech injection with timimg locked at 36 degree, lastly my chevelle has had compression from 9.7:1 to the 8.4:1 now and timing is locked at 35 degrees, I just crank and flip switch with all of them. They all start great that way.

bracketchev1221
Jun 14th, 10, 9:07 AM
It was a small cap distributor and no it was not phased. I know it's not very scientific, but it was more that I figured, more retard, easier to crank. The car was VERY tempermental trying to crank it. It became, stop everything else and concentrate on getting it fired. I hated it. My 540 is just under 14:1 and it seems to like 40.

fowl69
Jun 14th, 10, 9:32 AM
I hate starting issues . I had a 555 ci with 14.1 and a 496 with 13.1 and both had a start retard on them , I never had an issue starting them . I would hit the gas twice and fire it up . It seemed to work for me . 38 locked out on both . I also had a decent flex plate and starter on both . TCI flexplate and tildon starter .

bracketchev1221
Jun 14th, 10, 9:38 AM
I have a CSR flexplate on mine, and a powermaster starter on it. I hope it works. Starter's are easy to change. Flexplates aren't.:sad:

Everett#2390
Jun 14th, 10, 12:05 PM
If the above doesn't work, you might add a switch to disable/open the ign circuit then release the switch when cranking speed is up.

Bob West
Jun 14th, 10, 12:18 PM
I'm only at 10.5-1, locked at 40*, no problems starting here. I've also heard/read that spinning a motor then turning the ignition on is harder on starter/flexplate than trying to start with advanced timing. I guess its whatever works for you.

maddog71
Jun 14th, 10, 12:58 PM
mine is locked at 42 with no problems. heard using retard causes problems

ddeennis
Jun 14th, 10, 1:38 PM
my current bbc combo 10.5 compression tunnel ram set. with my hei locked out at 38. two pump sof the gas pedal and hit the key , fires right up the slpit second i crank it. i am using a stock gm starter.

i have had 11.7 bbc and 14 to 1 plus combos with same set up- locked out at 36-38 and using stock starters.

BillyGman
Jun 14th, 10, 2:05 PM
my current bbc combo 10.5 compression tunnel ram set. with my hei locked out at 38. two pump sof the gas pedal and hit the key , fires right up the slpit second i crank it. . I find this comment^ to be thought provoking and perhaps even relavent because although I haven't ever locked out the timing on any of my cars (yet) I've noticed with both the Holley 4150 and the 4500 carbs, when I pumped the accelerator ledal once before I turned the key, the engines usually fired right up, but if I don't do that, it takes the starter more turns of the engine to get it started. Might that be a factor in your combo Ray? I hope this helps.

bracketchev1221
Jun 14th, 10, 3:25 PM
I don't think it does. I crack the throttle anyway when cranking and as soon as I flip the switch it fires. But I just don't know how hard it will hit the starter. It seems great right now.

ericrickster
Jun 14th, 10, 5:03 PM
locked out at 37* here,using an msd starter saver,my research has taught me that a large dia. pro cap is what makes the difference allowing the start retard to work properly.

I only have 10.74:1 though

works flawless

69 Ratt Vette
Jun 14th, 10, 5:36 PM
I have mine locked at between 34-37 depending on a few factors. I run a 16 volt system and my 14 to 1, 565 fires right up.

One thing to keep in mind with locked out timing is it does not like low voltage. The main source of broken flex plates is from kick backs, many caused by low voltage.

oltmanjr
Jun 14th, 10, 5:53 PM
Locked out at 38* . MSD digital 6 takes out 20* till engine reaches over 800 rpm's . No problems

Iwanna64
Jun 14th, 10, 6:31 PM
I have mine locked at 35* with an MSD e-curve distributor that takes out 15* or 20*, depending on where I set it to start. Stays that way till about 800 rpm.
Here's a good read: http://www.robbmcperformance.com/news/news_v2i1.html

70SS540
Jun 14th, 10, 7:04 PM
540 12.8 to 1. Locked out at 40. Whips over hot or cold. Powermaster starter. I was using start retard anywhere from 10 degrees to 25. It seemed I would get a kick back on cold starting. I thought it was a lean backfire but it wasnt. Once I took out the start retard, seems to have eliminated the kickback.
I seen on Yellowbullet a lot of guys took out start retard for the same reason.

Tod74
Jun 14th, 10, 7:52 PM
I'm only at 10.5-1, locked at 40*, no problems starting here. I've also heard/read that spinning a motor then turning the ignition on is harder on starter/flexplate than trying to start with advanced timing. I guess its whatever works for you.


I also have heard it is a bad idea to spin and flip,but I've done it for years. Also mine is 13 to 1 BBC with the timing locked at 38 I have no issues starting it.

bracketchev1221
Jun 15th, 10, 8:44 AM
I think I'm going to go for it. Yank the distributor and turn the shaft 180. Locked at 40, crank it and throw the switch. Thanks.

yanniz
Jun 15th, 10, 12:59 PM
Locked out at 38* . MSD digital 6 takes out 20* till engine reaches over 800 rpm's . No problems

exactly same for mine....fires right up with no issues at all....

jambb
Jun 15th, 10, 5:26 PM
I have both of my cars locked out at 36* 540s and they start just fine with no problem at all

fast times
Jun 24th, 10, 11:52 PM
Man this thread is for me, I'll keep it short, 454 locked it out at 36*, wouldnt start with factory starter, bought msd 8982 start retard box cut the violet wire for 20* retard, started until car got hot, bought the baddest mini starter summit had, came out one morning sounded really rough trying to start so I shimmed the starter down 10 thou, then all I heard was wzzzzz from the starter, as of tommorow I'm trying to figure out how to go back to mech adv in the distributor and my old starter

10secBu
Jun 25th, 10, 7:58 AM
Put a large cap on and phase the distributor!!!

Buddy of mine tried running the small cap and locked out (with and without retard) and he went through a half dozen flexplates. I talked him into the large cap and phasing and hasn't hurt the flexplate since.

My setup has 15.5 to 1 compression, 7531 with 10 degree retard, crank trigger locked at 38 degrees. Knock on wood, never kicks back.

bracketchev1221
Jun 25th, 10, 8:17 AM
Rick had suggested the large cap. Never heard of that being an issue until he said it.

cream
Nov 9th, 10, 8:56 PM
i use the msd start retard with timing retard for the spray 2 pumps of the gas turn the key fires right up. My timing is 40* and the msd takes out 10* at start up.

70 SS 454
Nov 9th, 10, 10:51 PM
duh... ok ... i will ask

what is phasing the rotor and why a big cap?

BillsCamino
Nov 9th, 10, 11:22 PM
duh... ok ... i will ask

what is phasing the rotor and why a big cap?

http://www.msdignition.com/uploadedFiles/MSDIgnitioncom/Support/frm28392_tech_bulletin_rotor_phasing.pdf
A larger cap reduces the chance of crossfiring.

SSavon69
Nov 10th, 10, 12:57 AM
Locked out at 38* . MSD digital 6 takes out 20* till engine reaches over 800 rpm's . No problems

X2 except im at 33*

Ron454
Nov 10th, 10, 1:02 AM
I have a small cap and I phased my rotor. I'm not locked out, but have 32 initial and 38 total.....kind of a waste.
But....mine is a 9.5:1 496 with a 260/266 110 lobe sep cam, so it has never complained. Also has -00 bat cables, an Optima and a stock GM HD starter.
I don't need a retard although I have the ability.

It's a depends situation.


Put a large cap on and phase the distributor!!!

Buddy of mine tried running the small cap and locked out (with and without retard) and he went through a half dozen flexplates. I talked him into the large cap and phasing and hasn't hurt the flexplate since.

My setup has 15.5 to 1 compression, 7531 with 10 degree retard, crank trigger locked at 38 degrees. Knock on wood, never kicks back.

69 Malibu
Nov 10th, 10, 7:30 AM
I'm locked at 37, crank and flip the switch, works for me.

bracketchev1221
Nov 10th, 10, 7:56 AM
I never did it. Once I found the carb issue, there was no need. Mine is like Ron's, a lot of initial at idle and very little advance. I think it idles at like 30, and advances to 40 by 2500. I love the way my car starts without a locked out distributor. Never a cough or a hiccup. Cold or hot.

ToyzRMe
Nov 10th, 10, 8:06 AM
Ray, I'm running a crank trigger system locked at 40* (alcohol) on a 14-1 small block. HEAVILY modified MSD 7 box. Small dist cap, too.

I just spin it with the ignition off, then flip the switch.

No starter or flywheel issues ever. (Tilton starter).


Randy