Here's a pic of the new EFI system installed on my Vette. We got it off the dyno Friday before last, dropped it in the car on Sat, did all the minor fab work due to some other changes plus install the EFI on the car. Fired it up at 3am Tuesday night/Wed morning. Slept a few hours and hit the road for a 2500 mile road trip from Ft Worth to Memphis, to Alabama, to North Carolina and back to Texas last night. Trip went great and the system worked well!

JIM

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm436/540Hotrod/DSC02327_edited.jpg

Here's Doug playing with it on the dyno!

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm436/540Hotrod/Doug1.jpg

Jim,

I'm sorry, but did you mention what the dyno numbers where? I'm lazy tonight and didn't want to reread your other post on the Performance forum.

What made you decide to go with the Distributorless Ignition System? Did Doug talk you into it, or did you really want to try it? There are many different choices for ignitions, and I still don’t know what I want to go with. DIS is kind of pricey, but if it really works well, the added expense might just be justifiable. I know it runs well with DIS, but a small cap HEI will also work, I think.

What did you do for fuel delivery? Did you already have a sump? What changes did you make or plan to make? Did you use 48lb/hr Holley injectors?

Another question, did you have a chance to rest yet?

Enjoy your posts! Thanks!

No...I didn't tell all yet. Gotta save some for the magazine articles.

I will say that they are right with a GOOD Dominator with better manners...and better than most out of the box carbs would do.

The DIS is a neat system. Yes you can use regular stuff....but this opens the door for a lot more tuning ability as I progress. Really seems to work well so far.


I already had a sump and a return system with a Aeromotive A1000 pump. I had a -10 line feeding it with a -8 return. Doug likes -8 overall...so I just had to use a -10 adapter fitting to a -8 *Y*, some new short lines and a regulator to plumb it all up. It has 2-8's feeding it, one on each rail and 2 returns from the other ends.

I used 66 lb injectors.

JIM

but this opens the door for a lot more tuning ability as I progress.


I agree, but what do you have in the works that the DIS will assist you with? Are you going to squrt anything into your 555 other than gasoline? If I recall, you did stop in a distillery during your adventures. :)

I put it together this time with an eye towards enhancers if I get all excited. But even without them, the ability to hack around with timing curves and cylinders a little easier will be neat. More to come!

JIM

Thats looks sweet. If I could afford it our new stroker would have EFI.

Look forward to reading more about it.

Dave

It only hurts for a little while!!

JIM

im interested in the throttle cable bracketry. one-off piece, or available to the public?

do you have a link?

It's the same one I used with the Dominator. I think it's CVS..CVR??? I just turned it sideways and mounted it to rear throttle body bolts. I did have to do a little tweeking on the cable mount piece..but nothing a little work with a grinder and a file didn't handle. I drilled holes in it and mounted the MAP sensor and then drilled and tapped it to screw IAT sensor into it.

JIM

Jim do you have a controller on that pump? i have heard that you need that to run the pump or it will burn up. Thoughts, comments?

It's the same one I used with the Dominator. I think it's CVS..CVR??? I just turned it sideways and mounted it to rear throttle body bolts. I did have to do a little tweeking on the cable mount piece..but nothing a little work with a grinder and a file didn't handle. I drilled holes in it and mounted the MAP sensor and then drilled and tapped it to screw IAT sensor into it.

JIM

thanks for the info.

No controller. That pump has been under my car for years and has run quite a few long distance trips. I run a relay so that I get full battery voltage to it at all times and no voltage drops. That pump has always been the least of my worries. I think having a return system helps a lot with keeping it cool.

JIM

I have a A1000 also but was told that it needs to run a fuel controller for EFI pressures running it that hard will cause it to over heat.

11101 - A1000 Fuel PumpSKU: 11101
This is the pump that started it all. Durable, reliable, good looking and it supports high horsepower. Perfect for the daily driver that doesnʼt run like a daily driver.

Fuel Injected Engines:
up to 1300 HP – naturally aspirated
up to 1000 HP – forced air induction

Carbureted Engines:
up to 1500 HP – naturally aspirated
up to 1200 HP – forced air induction

• ORB-10 inlet and outlet ports.
• For EFI applications use regulator P/N 13101 or P/N 13109.
• For carbureted applications use regulator P/N 13204.
• Fully submersible for custom, in-tank placement.
• Perfect for “blow-through” carbureted engines up to 1200 HP.
• Billet Speed Pump Controller (P/N 16302) recommended for EFI street applications.

If this is not true that will help me a lot

I dunno.....worked perfect on my road trip. And it's not new by any stretch. For sure it's putting out more pressure for EFI...or at least not returning as much....but again...I had no issues. Might call them and see what they say. Let us know....

JIM

I remember seeing your '67 in BG for Corvetteforum Cruise In a few years ago and always enjoyed keeping up with your project along with ML67's?

I'd like to see how much mileage you can get out of the efi BBC. I had decided to go with LSx power in my Chevelle as I wanted a hydraulic roller, EFI and the mileage. I have thought about a hydraulic roller 427 or 454 with efi.

Keep up the good work.

There's a lot left in it for mileage. We haven't even scratched the surface. Of course my cam isn't conducive to good mileage..but we'll get what we can.

A few years ago Marcus (Zwede) was getting 20+mpg out of his 454" C-3 with a TKO and 3.08's using the earlier Holley EFI.

RPM and fuel management is the trick.

JIM

Steve, I think they're warning about overworking/overheating the pump while idling around on the street. Not much fuel being used, heavy on the by-pass regulator. cutting the voltage to the pump would lighten the load under this usage.

Steve, I think they're warning about overworking/overheating the pump while idling around on the street. Not much fuel being used, heavy on the by-pass regulator. cutting the voltage to the pump would lighten the load under this usage.


right but that is what i do LOL i have a bypass regulator and everything but don't want to kill my pump if/when i go to EFI

The regulator also has a vacuum port that reduces pressure at high manifold vacuum to help some.

Man....what do those little OEM pumps have that the big Aeromotive ones can't handle??? I know the race type pumps have trouble...but these aren't so bad.

I have heard of folks running around with stock OE pumps and then bringing in the big ones at WOT...but seems like a lot of extra stuff to me.

JIM

well atleast you and i are on the same page....... these are the reasons i bought the A1000. I figured it was going to be the pump i was going to run no matter what i was going to do, boost, efi, nitrous, whatever. then i hear people saying it need a controller to make it last and didn't want to spend another $350. I'd like to use what i have and go EFI.

Jim
my question is this the -8an return is what is recommended correct? I was looking into EFI and I have -10an feed lines and right now I have a -6an to 3/8 to -6an return it is a replacement 3/8 fuel line run in side the frame to the rear where it goes into an adaptor that runs to the cell with -6an line. I wonder if that would flow enough for the throttle body style like the fast EFI kit? would you know? or is this not in line with what you did the reason I ask is I have to get a pump and reg for the EFI as the one I have now only supports carbed applications its a mallory 140 and holley reg. I was looking at this pump here and reg.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-4060FI/
or this pump
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-5110FI/
along with this reg
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-4305M/
or this reg
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PFS-10670/
thanks
Jeff

The lines depend on the pump. For the pump you'd need for the FAST, a 3/8 return is fine. If you a huge pump on it, you need a return line with a lot of flow capacity.

Luckily I already had the -10 feed and -8 return on mine with the Aeromotive pump assy. from the carb combo.

Welcome back Doug!!


JIM

Luckily I already had the -10 feed and -8 return on mine with the Aeromotive pump assy. from the carb combo.

Welcome back Doug!!


JIM

Thanks Jim,
Ya have enough plumbing on to add some of those round thingies or maybe mr frosty...

More is better than not enough right?????

Got to have room to grow!

JIM

Jim is that the Holley intake on there, or one that you had fabbed up?

That's the Holley intake. Straight out of the box.

That's my old Super Vic on the left with a 1" spacer. In the middle is a new Brodix race intake...and on the right is the Holley.

http://i318.photobucket.com/albums/mm436/540Hotrod/DSC02230.jpg


JIM

The lines depend on the pump. For the pump you'd need for the FAST, a 3/8 return is fine. If you a huge pump on it, you need a return line with a lot of flow capacity.
hey Doug I sent you a PM with the link to the type of EFI Iam looking at so once you get that could you tell me what pump and reg you would recommend?
Jim
Sorry about the high jack
your car is just so sweet I want it. maybe someday my chevelle will have that kinda power. keep up the good work.
Jeff

what type of harness connectors are on the box?

The whole thing uses OEM style sealed connections. Good stuff.

JIM

what type of harness connectors are on the box?

They are Tyco brand sealed automotive/marine.

Just an update....I think I jinxed my Aeromotive fuel pump by bragging on it.

I was playing around with tuning stuff in the shop the other day and headed out to drive around. I live about 3 miles from nearest gas station....and I ran it out of gas. Oops!!

Now this is definitely not the first time I've done this...call me dumb..I know!

So anyway, after about 8 years of use, running out of gas quite a few times...and really low other times and running into gas stations on fumes....and I'm sure the added EFI fuel pressure didn't help...it finally died!

But guess what.....just put another one just like it right back on! Counting on some more good years out of it!!

JIM

Jim, have you been able to spend anymore time driving the car with the EFI system? Wondering if you were noticing more and more if it runs alot better/same/worse than in did with the carb?

It drives really nice. VERY crisp. But with Father's Day and my work travel schedule I haven't driven much more since I got back from the road trip. After changing the pump on Sunday and talking to Doug last week, I decided to play around with letting it self tune even in the lower ranges. Previously we had it locked out down there. It did a great job averaging A/F ratios to whatever I told it to do. I started playing with adding in some timing like you would have with vacuum advance. As you know...that changes the whole picture too.

I'm in Chicago this week...so I plan on going driving more this weekend and seeing what I can do in the cruise ranges. WOT is easy...you just tell it what you want. Light throttle stuff right now is really nice and clean...but with all that tuning ability and so easy to play with....I can't resist doing some tweaking.

This is where people get hooked on this EFI stuff right??

Friday is National Drive Your Vette to Work Day....so I plan on "profiling" a little bit!!

To your original questions,...the best I can describe it is....I had spent a lot of time getting my Dominator to drive around like a pickup truck. It never loaded up, it could idle all day, it could cruise, it could race all on the same tuneup...not even a jet change between street and race.

This EFI was dead even with it in about 10 minutes and it's getting even better as it goes.

JIM

That's amazing how fast that thing self learns. I figure us stick guys are a little more sensitve to how smooth a motor runs since there's no convertor to mask alot of the running irregularities. And considering how large your cam is, its great that the ECU can tune around it.

Keep us posted.

You have to recalibrate your thinking Vince...

At 6000 R/M (RPM) you have 100 R/S or about .1 R/ms.
Invert that and you rotate the crank about 36* every millisecond.
And this is on the top of the range, we usually run the engine at less than half this speed.

Now let's look at the numbers for a microprocessor...

One published example (MS-II) uses a 24MHz CPU. If we use a semi-arbitrary guess that it takes 4 CPU clocks per instruction we get 6,000,000 instructions per second or 16,666 instructions for every degree of crankshaft rotation.

I would say it learns rather slowly :D

Framing the problem another way, at 6000 RPM you have 24000 firing events per minute and every one of those is a learning opportunity. How well could you figure something out if you did it 24000 times?

Learning would be even faster if we did not have to do special processing to filter out the weird and strange that happens in the real world.

huh?

LOL

Suffice to say that the electronic systems operate several orders of magnitude faster than the mechanical systems. And they have lots and lots of data and attempts to get the right answer. So yes they can learn fast :yes:

The challenge is in interpretting all the data... you do not want a single cylinder misfire to mess up your tuning. So you have to be able to ignore and forget about some things that don't make sense. Like that one really bad run at the strip when you are tuning. Was it because of the tune (nope) or the driver (yep) so it is not applicable to the tune.

Just kidding Steve - I kinda knew what you were getting at :thumbsup:

Interestingly though, I had a nice talk with Doug F., and his testing has shown how some cylinders were running 10:1, some at 18:1. That must make tuning very interesting. Even though my AFR meter is showing 14:1 on that one bank, its just an average. - who knows what's really going on. Short of 8 AFR sensors, we just have to do the best we can with what we have. Wonder if that Dominator ECU can handle 8 AFR/EGT sensors and self-tune? Talk about unleashing the true-potential!

Just kidding Steve - I kinda knew what you were getting at :thumbsup:

Interestingly though, I had a nice talk with Doug F., and his testing has shown how some cylinders were running 10:1, some at 18:1. That must make tuning very interesting. Even though my AFR meter is showing 14:1 on that one bank, its just an average. - who knows what's really going on. Short of 8 AFR sensors, we just have to do the best we can with what we have. Wonder if that Dominator ECU can handle 8 AFR/EGT sensors and self-tune? Talk about unleashing the true-potential!

The problem with engines that have very poor cylinder to cylinder distribution is that even changes based on RPM, Load, and throttle angle. It moves all over the place. One cylinder might be the leanest at one point, than ok the next. It is truly amazing many engines run as well as they do. The best defense for distribution is a good offense, meaning have a very well designed intake manifold and throttle body. The GM LSx engines are very good. Another good design, which I run, and I run it for the reason of distribution is a tunnel ram. An IR manifold is inherently very good since it has isolated runners. That is also why I try to steer people into multiport EFI vs TBI on healthy performance engines. TBI works well seat of the pants, don't get me wrong, but if you want best distribution, you have to run multiport and even then air distribution is a huge deal.

Kidding eh? Well :beers: to ya!

This is where it gets fun... you do not need 8 sensors :D

Some of the EFI systems are synchronizing the sensor reads with cylinder operations. That way you literally can read the AFR on each cylinder (or mostly) with a single (or dual) WB sensor. This kind of thing only makes sense with independent (aka sequential) injector firing systems though. This is a distinguishing feature on the more recent and higher end EFI ECUs: the ability to run sequential mode rather than batch fire.

Currently some folks have stretched MS-II Extra to do this kind of thing but only on smaller 1-4 cylinder engines. The CPU package they used is a minimal pin count version and thus does not have the input/output needed to run sequential on a V8. But coming very soon (some parts are already out) is the MS-III which switches to a high pin count version of the CPU and adds a lot more input/output capability. So in a few months it will be possible to roll your own sequential V8 EFI system.

That said, I would not be surprised if the latest top of the line systems from Holley and FAST provide this capability already as well.

The other factor you touch on with the variance of AFRs is the individual cylinder AFR depends highly on the airflow balance which is why intake manifold design is SO important. In aircraft engines they will spend a lot of time and energy tweaking each individual injector to get AFRs to match on every cylinder. These guys are working to run air cooled turbo engines with lean mixtures at high power for extended lengths of time. And to think there are people on this forum who believe you must run rich at a low power cruise to avoid detonation :clonk:

Some of the EFI systems are synchronizing the sensor reads with cylinder operations. That way you literally can read the AFR on each cylinder (or mostly) with a single (or dual) WB sensor. This kind of thing only makes sense with independent (aka sequential) injector firing systems though. This is a distinguishing feature on the more recent and higher end EFI ECUs: the ability to run sequential mode rather than batch fire.

That's awesome.

Doug, can the Dommy ECU self-tune in squential mode?

It will self tune in any fuel injection mode, it just doesn't tune cylinder per cylinder which is pretty much an impossible task.

It will self tune in any fuel injection mode, it just doesn't tune cylinder per cylinder which is pretty much an impossible task.

I thought that was what sequential was???


I think we need a sticky...EFI 101!!!! And I know just the guy who should write it ;)

Like to see an explanation of all this stuff, benefits/negs, req'd equipment and such.

Yeah, but Doug already has a job....

I would suggest starting a list of questions thread that could be "distilled" into a 101 thread.

Of course it also is possible that such material already exists out there and could be leveraged.

Note that one challenge is the "moving target" syndrome. Todays limitations become tomorrows features :yes:

I thought that was what sequential was???


I think we need a sticky...EFI 101!!!! And I know just the guy who should write it ;)

Like to see an explanation of all this stuff, benefits/negs, req'd equipment and such.

Sequential is when you injector fuel into one cylinder and control the timing at which the injector event starts/ends.

WHere you are getting confused is individual cylinder fueling trims vs closed loop control. With sequential, many times (Holley and FAST can do this among many others) you can program in individual cylinder trims (% offset on a single cylinder) which are applied all the time. What isn't done is closed loop control (ie have the ECU change the actual A/F ratio of indivual cylinders). To to do this correctly you'd need 8 wideband 02 sensors.

Sequential is when you injector fuel into one cylinder and control the timing at which the injector event starts/ends.

WHere you are getting confused is individual cylinder fueling trims vs closed loop control. With sequential, many times (Holley and FAST can do this among many others) you can program in individual cylinder trims (% offset on a single cylinder) which are applied all the time. What isn't done is closed loop control (ie have the ECU change the actual A/F ratio of indivual cylinders). To to do this correctly you'd need 8 wideband 02 sensors.

Thanks Doug. Sounds like you need some sort of data aquisition to even use the seqen...how else would you know if a particular cyl needs to be trimmed differently?

Thanks Doug. Sounds like you need some sort of data aquisition to even use the seqen...how else would you know if a particular cyl needs to be trimmed differently?

Read plugs on a serious nitrous car.

Or I'd move the 2 widebands around to each cylinder.

8 wideband would be the cats meow.

Or I'd worry about 100 other things I'd consider first. 99% of people have other things to look at before they'd even get there other than some of the typical problem engines that have some typically lean holes which you'd only even consider worrying about on an engine with a ton of nitrous.

interested in pictures of the actual unit itself, especially the back.

they are conspicuosly absent from the web

There's really nothing on the back. It's flat...the plugs all come in from the end. I've got mine mounted on right firewall inside car with wiring plugs all along the bottom edge.

You can see the plugs on the harness pics and you can download the wiring diagrams to see how they are setup. Plus you can download the program to play with it to see how it looks.

Not sure if I crawled under there and took a pic it would show you much?

What do you need to know/see about the harness connections?


Maybe Doug can help here...

JIM

There's really nothing on the back. It's flat...the plugs all come in from the end. I've got mine mounted on right firewall inside car with wiring plugs all along the bottom edge.

You can see the plugs on the harness pics and you can download the wiring diagrams to see how they are setup. Plus you can download the program to play with it to see how it looks.

Not sure if I crawled under there and took a pic it would show you much?

What do you need to know/see about the harness connections?


Maybe Doug can help here...

JIM

actually, I already downloaded the software, and it looks REALLY full featured( I could not find any analog gauge page though), thats why Im very interested in it.

I think the main harness and injector harness both use a weatherpak connector, but what Im interested in is the nitrous control, fan control and boost control inputs and outputs. how is this implemented?

also, for tps, iat, clt and those sensors, how do they connect to the unit.


another question I have is dual fuel implementation. I didnt play with this in the software last night, but say I have a race car with 160lb injectors but I want to add another set of 28lb injectors to be used just for the idle area. is it possible to switch off one set at a predetermined rpm/map range?

thanks