Hey guys,

I must not be good at the search function because I sure cant find anything on this.

I am specifically looking for someone who has taken a Muncie 4 speed out of a 69-72 and replaced it with a Richmond 5 speed. I need a question answered :)

TIA

What do you need to know?

Did you have to cut the floor pan ?

Lots of stuff in here http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271952&highlight=bellhousing+alignment

Plus at least one other member here OMAN has put a 5 speed Richmond in a 70 Monte and a mid 60's vette, no floor cutting.

If I can be of any assistance, please let me know. :D

Fred,
Thanks for the links ! I will have to look at them this evening at home where I have something a little better than this slow ars dial up connection :( I might be calling you. I am complicating the job even more with the LS1 engine.

Hey guys,

I must not be good at the search function because I sure cant find anything on this.

I am specifically looking for someone who has taken a Muncie 4 speed out of a 69-72 and replaced it with a Richmond 5 speed. I need a question answered :)

TIA

If your question involves floor clearance and a 5 Speed Non OD Richmond running a Hurst I have the solution. The LS1 might complicate things but if the crankshaft centerline is located at the same height as the stock engine crank centerline it should work. Fore and aft positioning of the trans will obviously be an issue here. If the engine sits further rearward of course there could be more complications. If it sits forward of the stock position it makes all this easier.

A simple mod to the mounting plate that attaches to the tailshaft, a little ball peen hammer surgery on the C-Member and you can lower the shifter 1.5 inches. This negates the need for any floor pan surgery around where the shifter comes thru the floor if you have the correct hump.

It has been a while since I did this and I seem to recall massaging the floor pan just a bit but that was not related to the shifter mechanism. The massage was needed at the rear of the trans at the uppermost corners of the case where the tailshaft and the main case bolt together. The massage was short and sweet one or two hits and I was good to go.

Last point on the swap. I cut the pad off the crossmember and lowered it a bit below stock position. Not sure how far I dropped it. I lowered it more than needed figuring that would give me some room to lower the tailshaft to get the right angle with the taishaft and pinion. The massage mentioned above was necessary when I got to the shimmed heiight under the trans mount pad that I had to have to get the angles where I wanted them. These angles apaprently differ from car to car so my experience might not necessarily be what you would need for your car.

I don't run a console so I don't know what happens in the case of the console equipped cars. I think this mod could work but it would be trickier.

Also as Chicken Coupe said earlier: I have done this on a 66 Vette and I got the shifter dead nuts into stock position without cutting the floor at all. The A-body was a walk in the park compared to the Vette. BTW same equipment set on the Vette as the A-Body...non OD Richmond and Hurst.

I have pictures of the mod to the plate that goes on the tailshaft, three simple cuts and a couple of welds. Believe it or not no drilling or tapping is needed. If you want the PICS just let me know. I don't know how this might work with an OD trans or on a non OD trans with a Long Shifter but it worked for me with the equipment outlined in the first paragraph. The Long shifter is IMHO somewhat easier shifting but the Hurst has been an old stand by since I was 16.

If you want the pictures contact me at HPEXPATRIOT@yahoo.com and I will attach pics to an E-mail reply.

Let me know if you want to follow this up further. Glad to help.

oman,

I am getting ready to look at all of Fred's pics. I dont have a problem modifying the crossmember, I just will not cut my pristine 53k mile floor pan. The car was a factory stick car so I am hoping it will work somehow. I have the Nash 4+1 non od trans with the Hurst shifter.

The one think I am not 100% sure of is if the LS1 is located correctly front to back. I did some measuring and it looks like the Edelbrock mounts should position it within 1/8" of the original small block, so it should not be a problem. I have a couple of people trying to get some measurements for me from cars with "regular" engines. If not, I will pull the LS out and stick a small block bare block in the car to make sure, that might be the way to go anyway.

Thanks,

I made the switch in my '72. The floor pan clearance was fine but I needed to modify the crossmember and the shifter hump to make it work. The real problem with the switch was that the shifter on the Richmond is mounted on the side of the trans instead of the center making it impossible to use a console. The shifter was also too close to the drivers seat making it necessary to fabricate an offset bracket for the shifter arm to move it over. If I had it to do over again I would not use the Richmond. Tremec offers a trans with a center mounted shifter that would go in much easier with the shifter more in the stock location.

Tom

Tom,

The shifter on a Muncie is also mounted on the side so I dont see how that is any different ? My car is a bench seat car so I may have to get creative with the shifter handle. When you say you had to modify the shifter hump, what do you mean ? Was your car originally a 4 speed ?

oman,

I am getting ready to look at all of Fred's pics. I dont have a problem modifying the crossmember, I just will not cut my pristine 53k mile floor pan. The car was a factory stick car so I am hoping it will work somehow. I have the Nash 4+1 non od trans with the Hurst shifter.

The one think I am not 100% sure of is if the LS1 is located correctly front to back. I did some measuring and it looks like the Edelbrock mounts should position it within 1/8" of the original small block, so it should not be a problem. I have a couple of people trying to get some measurements for me from cars with "regular" engines. If not, I will pull the LS out and stick a small block bare block in the car to make sure, that might be the way to go anyway.

Thanks,


Some added background data. I have somewhat confused what was done on my Vette with what was done on the A-body. The A-Body was done in perhaps 1985 and the Vette was done about 7 years ago. things run together a little so I need to be sure you don't go astray using my info.

My car was a floor shift automatic when the conversion work started. It had first been converted to a Muncie but I moved to the Richmond later on. Modifications to the floor are as follows: I DID modify the floor. After I got the shifter mods and what not mentioned here done I cut a floor section from a donor car and fabbed up a sheet metal hump of my own. Essentially what I came up with was a sheet metal hump that resembles a non console car hump. My pictures might be valuable..it MIGHT be that they would help but then again the fact that you have a factory hump in there now could change everything as far as clearance requirements. I cannot say for sure how closely my fabbed hump dimensionally resembles the factory hump.

All this means what to you? I think the mod I made to the mounting plate might be a good idea for you if you want to see what I did. The fact that the A-body was a conversion from automatic with a home made floor hump lestens the value of what I could add somewhat. In point of fact I guess it might seriously dimninish the applicability of my information.

The Mod to the mounitng plate was a necessity in the Vette there was no other way to do it w/o havng the Hurst way up above the console. The mounting plate mod in the A-body might still be of value but considering my work on a custom Hump I cannot be sure.

If you want the info on the mod let me know.

Good luck

Tom,

The shifter on a Muncie is also mounted on the side so I dont see how that is any different ? My car is a bench seat car so I may have to get creative with the shifter handle. When you say you had to modify the shifter hump, what do you mean ? Was your car originally a 4 speed ?

The Hurst must have the kickover at the bottom of the lever to get it centered in the console. I think the Poster who mentioned the shifter issue he had must have had a straight shifter lever w/o the kickover to get the verticle part of the lever aligned with the console center line.

The Hurst I bought for my Richmond came with a straight lever, no kickover at all. I don't know if Hurst made a shifter KIT for the Richmond that had the kicked over lever specific for the Chevelles. I think if you were working on a 70 / 72 car that was a stick from the get go you needed to buy a Chevelle specific shift lever and bolt it onto the Hurst shifter mechanism that was made for the Richmond 5 Speed. Again, this swap I did was almost back far enough in time to be described as being done "back in the day" so memory fades a little !!!

Tom,

The shifter on a Muncie is also mounted on the side so I dont see how that is any different ? My car is a bench seat car so I may have to get creative with the shifter handle. When you say you had to modify the shifter hump, what do you mean ? Was your car originally a 4 speed ?

Bill,

The Muncies did have an offset bracket that placed the shifter handle in the center of the trans. The problem with the Richmond is that the shifter is so large it interferes with the hump as well as the console if you use one. I got around the hump interference by building a new one but there was no way to get the console to fit. There are pics on my web site showing the process. I also made an offset bracket to move the shifter handle closer to the center of the car. The Richmond might be better suited for a bench seat provided it doesn't place the shifter too far to the rear. Yes, my car was originally a four speed.

Tom

Bill,

The Muncies did have an offset bracket that placed the shifter handle in the center of the trans. The problem with the Richmond is that the shifter is so large it interferes with the hump as well as the console if you use one. I got around the hump interference by building a new one but there was no way to get the console to fit. There are pics on my web site showing the process. I also made an offset bracket to move the shifter handle closer to the center of the car. The Richmond might be better suited for a bench seat provided it doesn't place the shifter too far to the rear. Yes, my car was originally a four speed.


Tom

Figbash

You are right but the problems you talk about are fixable. Outta the box the Richmond lever sticks up directly above the shifter mech. and the mech sits much higher on the trans than a standard Muncie linkage on a Muncie or a Hurst linkage on a Muncie. Once ya lower the shifter mech all ya need is the Hurst shifter lever that bolts onto a Hurst and at the same time has the offset to get the lever over to the middle of the console.

All ya gotta do is make a simple mod to the mounting plate that secures the shifter to the tailhousing. That change drops the shifter mechanism 1.5 inches and the issues with the hump go away. Minor changes are required on the crossmember as a result of the lowering of the shifter mech. but all ya need to fix the crossmember is a "Hot Wrench" and a ball peen hammer.

I have pictures if anyone is interested but I cannot post em. If someone wants to post for me I will forward the PIC to whoever is a nice guy and is willing to post / host the pics. I just never got "trained" up on posting and I am really busy right now so I cannot take any time.

Oman,
You can e-mail me the pics or if you want to post them all you have to do is replay (not quick reply) to this message and scroll way down and you will see the option to manage attachments. It will probably take less time to do that than to send the e-mail :)

Anyway after looking at a bunch of other sites, I am pretty sure that part of my problem is the Edelbrock mounts for the LS1 have it sitting too far back. I took some measurements this evening and sent them to Fred to compare with his chassis. The mounts would be very easy to modify, just not sure what that is going to do to my header availability as I was going to use the entire Edelbrock header and exhaust setup.

I think I will do some searching on Thurday and see if I can find a nice used crossmember so I dont have to hack my original. Might even get energetic and just make a nice tubular one.

Ok here are the PICs ..boy am I feeling dumb. Never tried to post a pic before. Seemed like there were lots of folks having trouble with host sites and what not. This is a picture of a trans that belonged to a guy who used my idea. He took pics of his trans, he posted them on a Vette message board and forwarded them to me just to show me how his car came out. His is a little prettier cause he painted the mounting plate!

If you look at the "Richmondbefore' you see three scribed lines that are the cuts. One scribed line is VERY faint but you will get the idea by looking at the "Richmondafter". Make those cuts then slide the upper section right down onto the lower section and weld. DONE no drilling or tapping!!!! You will have to bend the rods a bit..easy to do. Don't heat them up bend em cold. If I recall right only 1 needs to be bent...I think it was the Reverse / First rod. The required bend is VERY slight!!!

Notice how low the shifter sits on the side of the trans after the mod. I used this process in my 66 Vette and the shifter is absolutley indistinguishable from a stock Muncie lever. The console works without mods, the boot works without mods and the floor needs no mods. I have a dummy Muncie shifter on the Vette installed Richmond and w/o the shift pattern plate on the console no one would ever know.

Just remember that lowering the shifter mech WILL cause issues with the 1st and reverse lever hitting the C-member. On the Vette it hits the tunnel in the crossmember where the tail pipe passes thru the crossmember. That required some work with the Sawz-All and a grinder but no big deal. The A-body was a PIECE OF CAKE compared to the Vette. If I can get that thing in a Vette I can get it in almost anywhere!!!!!

Bill,
how far along are you on your 5 speed conversion?
I just did my 67 SS with a doug nash 4+1, and cut the the shifter bracket like Oman did
and it lowered the shifter without cutting the floor board, however the cross member had to be modified since part of the linkage interferes,it also has to be moved back.
The counsel did not have to be moved whatsoever!!
I also had to dial indicate the lakewood bellhousing with off set dowel pins.
Right now I'm running 3:55 rear gear with CF 12 dual friction and it seems to work really well. I have 3.08 gear that I will install soon. The take off seems unreal compared to my m-21. I can stay in my power band with my 496 and do 3000 rpm shifts and it just takes off. I'm still wearing in my clutch so I have not done any serious pulls. But so far I like this set up way better than any muncie. Well worth the mods!! :yes:
Fritz

Fritz,
I am still messing with it a little at a time. I have been so busy at the shop that I really dont feel like working on the car :( I think mine might be ok with just moving the bracket to the forward holes. I did some measuring and it looks ok that way. I might get energetic and try putting it back under the car on Sunday morning before it gets too hot out.

I never realized how nice it was having a lift. We had one at my last shop but I had to sell it when we moved to my present location because I did not have room for it :(

Fritz,
I am still messing with it a little at a time. I have been so busy at the shop that I really dont feel like working on the car :( I think mine might be ok with just moving the bracket to the forward holes. I did some measuring and it looks ok that way. I might get energetic and try putting it back under the car on Sunday morning before it gets too hot out.

I never realized how nice it was having a lift. We had one at my last shop but I had to sell it when we moved to my present location because I did not have room for it :(

I sure can relate to what you are saying about the lift and the heat. We are now in consecutive day 17 of over 90 degrees with fairly high humidiy here in Atlanta. I don't want to do anything outside in this heat. I don't even want to go outside to get into the car to drive somewhere let alone actually work under a car or in the yard.