OK. I swapped out my 454 for a 502 over the winter. Bought a new GM flywheel, for the 502. Bought a new 11" Centerforce clutch, pp and TO bearing. Same Lakewood scattershield. Same Richmond 4 sp. THis is not my first swap. I've done several. So... After install, I can not get the car in gear while running. Shut it off, shifts like butter. Put car in gear, push clutch, hit the starter, car moves. So...out it comes. I adjust the pivot ball back towards the tranny. Put it in. Same deal. I adjust the linkage over 1 1/2" out, still nothing. I believe that the clutch is not disengaging. I measure the flywheel vs the old Hays unit from the 454. The new GM flywheel is .282" thicker than the old one.
No, the disk is not in backward.
What am I missing?

I'll be willing to bet the new pressure plate is thicker.;)

Just a thought. If you adjusted the pivot ball away from the clutch (towards the trans) you might not be getting enough through out bearing travel for disengagement. Even though the flywheel is over 1/4 inch thicker you might need to adjust the pivot ball closer to the flywheel.
How do you like the Richmond? What gear selection do you have and what is your 12 bolt gear. What kind of shifter do you use? I am considering swapping out my 400 with trans brake.
I bought a center force dual friction set up when they first came out and used it with a super T-10. Never had to adjust it unless i pulled the engine or trans. I used a Super Shifter.

Just a thought. If you adjusted the pivot ball away from the clutch (towards the trans) you might not be getting enough through out bearing travel for disengagement. Even though the flywheel is over 1/4 inch thicker you might need to adjust the pivot ball closer to the flywheel.
How do you like the Richmond? What gear selection do you have and what is your 12 bolt gear. What kind of shifter do you use? I am considering swapping out my 400 with trans brake.
I bought a center force dual friction set up when they first came out and used it with a super T-10. Never had to adjust it unless i pulled the engine or trans. I used a Super Shifter.
Thats the second time today I've heard that. I'll try to move it back towards the flywheel in the morning.
I've had the Richmond in the car for 2 yrs with a 454. Geared 2.43/1.61/1.23/1.00 with a 4.10 rear gear. I use a Supershifter. It's been great, no issues. I am thinking of going auto just for the performance. I'd like to go to the track a few times and don't want to break this trans.

I'll be willing to bet the new pressure plate is thicker.;)
Howard, same part number as last years clutch/pp. I would hope its the same, but I'll check it againt the old one.

Larry, did you read CF's instructions for setting up pivot ball height with a scattersheild?

Larry, did you read CF's instructions for setting up pivot ball height with a scattersheild?

Yes Vince, according to that, I went the right way with the ball. :confused:
This thing is going to get straightened out this weekend or its going on the shelf and a 400 TH is going in.

OK. I swapped out my 454 for a 502 over the winter. Bought a new GM flywheel, for the 502. Bought a new 11" Centerforce clutch, pp and TO bearing. Same Lakewood scattershield. Same Richmond 4 sp. THis is not my first swap. I've done several. So... After install, I can not get the car in gear while running. Shut it off, shifts like butter. Put car in gear, push clutch, hit the starter, car moves. So...out it comes. I adjust the pivot ball back towards the tranny. Put it in. Same deal. I adjust the linkage over 1 1/2" out, still nothing. I believe that the clutch is not disengaging. I measure the flywheel vs the old Hays unit from the 454. The new GM flywheel is .282" thicker than the old one.
No, the disk is not in backward.
What am I missing?

The ball height is a number that is not set in stone. Because you are using a block plate that is .130 thick, that must be considered. Also the thickness of the flywheel. GM uses a nominal .950, Hays picked some number out of thin air, 1.080! So the deal is they need to be checked and the ball needs to reflect all the numbers. If you move the shield out .130 the ball goes deeper by the same amount. If the flywheel is thicker you subtract. The number CF gives you as well as Lakewood is the starting place.

I don't know why Hays and others decided to make a flywheel thicker or maybe the can't read a micrometer:sad::sad::sad:

Yes Vince, according to that, I went the right way with the ball. :confused:
This thing is going to get straightened out this weekend or its going on the shelf and a 400 TH is going in.

The only other thing I can offer Larry is that I remember that the ball stud was almost all the way extended out (in my case). I was actually concerned it wasnt going to be long enough. The scattersheild and block plate really changes the distance of that ballstud.

There's really nothing else left.

The only other thing I can offer Larry is that I remember that the ball stud was almost all the way extended out (in my case). I was actually concerned it wasnt going to be long enough. The scattersheild and block plate really changes the distance of that ballstud.

There's really nothing else left.

assuming you using a stock GM fork the ball stud will pbly end up extended alot when using a block saver and a lakewood ...........mine is the same as Vinces with mcLeod diaphram clutch .............FWIW if you get real serious with needing alot of disengagement airgap for the track and you have the ball out alot .........then redrill the hole on the bellcrank upperrod attatch point about 1" lower .that will give you more airgap that and ball height are only way to change the disengagemnt

Regardles of measurements I always use the old school guide of when fork on the ball with bearing tight to clutch the straight part of fork .close to the ball should be angled 5-10* toward the block

assuming you using a stock GM fork the ball stud will pbly end up extended alot when using a block saver and a lakewood ...........mine is the same as Vinces with mcLeod diaphram clutch .............FWIW if you get real serious with needing alot of disengagement airgap for the track and you have the ball out alot .........then redrill the hole on the bellcrank upperrod attatch point about 1" lower .that will give you more airgap that and ball height are only way to change the disengagemnt

Regardles of measurements I always use the old school guide of when fork on the ball with bearing tight to clutch the straight part of fork .close to the ball should be angled 5-10* toward the block

Thanks Bill. The reason I backed the pivot ball up is that the new GM flywheel is .282" THICKER than the old Hays flywheel. Same clutch, same Lakewood, same fork, so I thought (first mistake) that it needed to come out that .282. I'll try to run it out (towards the block and see what happens.
If Vince wasn't using all the same parts, I'd have swapped it out by now. But it will work once I get it adjusted properly.

The only other thing I can offer Larry is that I remember that the ball stud was almost all the way extended out (in my case). I was actually concerned it wasnt going to be long enough. The scattersheild and block plate really changes the distance of that ballstud.

There's really nothing else left.

Thanks Vince, Thats tommorrow's project. I need to get away from that black #&*$*!^ for a day. :beers:

Yeah ball stud should go towards the motor so that the fork is angled forward a bit.

You have the block plate on too?

Don't forget that through out bearings come in 2 different lengths.

Yeah ball stud should go towards the motor so that the fork is angled forward a bit.

You have the block plate on too?

Yes, the block plate is in. I've about got it apart for the 4th time. I'll move the pivot ball TOWARDS the block and reassemble. This is not my idea of fun while its all in the car. :pout:

Yes, the block plate is in. I've about got it apart for the 4th time. I'll move the pivot ball TOWARDS the block and reassemble. This is not my idea of fun while its all in the car. :pout:


If you were going the other way with the stud, that's bad. Remember, fully extended...and I'm talking ball stud here :D

Yes, the block plate is in. I've about got it apart for the 4th time. I'll move the pivot ball TOWARDS the block and reassemble. This is not my idea of fun while its all in the car. :pout:

The ball height number provided by CF and Lakewood is based on a flywheel thickness of .950. In a perfect world the thickness of the block plate would need to be factored in and ball height would be set deeper by .130. The flywheel thickness moves the ball back. I can't imagine how the hell GM made a stock flywheel over a 1/4 inch thicker than stock, how are you getting this number???? Thickness is from the crank mating surface to the face of the flywheel.

Well, I adjusted the pivot ball forward, towards the block aprox 9/16". I rechecked all my part numbers, measured everything I could think of twice, put it all back together and still nothing. Same deal, shifts nice shut off. Start it and it won't go in gear. Put in gear, push clutch, bump starter, you move. I've adjusted the threaded clutch link from one extreeme to the other. Nothing. If you'll excuse me, I have some stuff to post in the classifieds. :mad:

Don't give up Larry. If it worked before it can't be anything major that's holding you up now. If you do decide to make the swap though, I am still in need of a good stock z-bar and some other stuff to finish my swap. :D

Seriously though, does the clutch fork look like it's at the right angle to start with? Was the Centerforce t-out bearing the same height as the original? Have you been able to measure freeplay (if any)?

WOOHOO!!:hurray:
I got it. Well actually, 69CHVL, VINCE got it. You are THE MAN! :thumbsup: Had you just been in my garage you'd have seen a fat man dance. :disco:

For all those that were trying to help....the new pilot bushing was grabbing the input shaft. Clutch was working, but we were in "direct drive" mode.30 seconds on the jackstands.... Fixed! Thanks guys. :thumbsup:

Hey Larry, the transmission package in the classifieds - still for sale :D

WOOHOO!!:hurray:
I got it. Well actually, 69CHVL, VINCE got it. You are THE MAN! :thumbsup: Had you just been in my garage you'd have seen a fat man dance. :disco:

For all those that were trying to help....the new pilot bushing was grabbing the input shaft. Clutch was working, but we were in "direct drive" mode.30 seconds on the jackstands.... Fixed! Thanks guys. :thumbsup:

Who made that pilot bushing???? Don't want to get one of those things!

Hey Larry, the transmission package in the classifieds - still for sale :D

Ummm.......I think its spoken for... ;)

Wally, the pilot bushing came from Napa. After the fact, I'm hearing that the tolerances on pilot bushings aren't what they used to be. After installing/removing the driveline 5 times in three days, yeah, I'll go with that theory.

Ummm.......I think its spoken for... ;)

Wally, the pilot bushing came from Napa. After the fact, I'm hearing that the tolerances on pilot bushings aren't what they used to be. After installing/removing the driveline 5 times in three days, yeah, I'll go with that theory.

I've hear of people either reaming them out a little or buying a dozen & finding the best one of the 12:yes: