It looks to me like the Wilwood 2285 kit for a 67 Malibu is a good deal (as far as kits go). Only thing seems not to be there is the hard line, MC and booster. At around $650 shipping free, prop valve and stainless hoses it sounds like a good deal. Since I need to buy a complete hard line kit anyway, they're no big deal. An MC and booster isn't that much is it?

SO what's the trade off? Are these good brakes? Are there hidden cost downstream, like expensive pads, etc. Are the aluminum hubs ok?

Not at all good for street use. These are drag kits. Anytime you are looking at brake kits that include 11X.810 solid rotors you can be assured they were not designed for repeated use in daily driving enviornments.

Wilwood does have some very nice brake kits, they typically run about 1400 for a nice front kit.

Sounds like it's about time for another Baer group purchase.

Darn! Thanks again Dennis. I thought I found something that wasn't a budget buster.

Hey Clint, sounds good, count me in. How do we do it?

the 2285 kit uses vented rotors, Here's the description of the kit: http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Pages/06/index.asp

My apologizes, .810 VENTED, worse yet. The entire rotor, all 11" of it(no bigger than stock brakes on an early A body) is only .810 thick and 1/3 is the vented gap between planes. Way too thin for durable street use pulling down over 3500lbs. The 12" tall spindle conversion provides 12"X1.125 wide vented rotors and the 13" C5 conversion provides 12.75"X1.125 wide directional vented rotors, even they have heat problems during hard braking.

Brakes are not the components you want to buy based soley on price. If you ask Wilwood they will tell you the drag kits are not designed for street use, even thought the description advertises it as "heavy duty".

So you meen that there`s no difference between original mounted 67-rotors/caliper and the 2285-kit?
I have drums in the front and i feel the it would be safer with discs.

Thanks Dennis, So you feel one of the kits offerd by GU, NPD or OPG, with one piece rotors and steel hats is better? I know the 11" rotor is only stock but isn't an 11" pwoer disc on the front a better brake system than the 4 wheel manual drums on a 67? I guess "383" in Sweden is asking the same thing.

No the OE disc brakes are better than the 2285-kit.

I like the kit offered by True Connections, drop spindle option available and 12" brakes....I think they sell for about 700.00.

Actually I prefer the Wilwood/Alcon 6-piston/14" rotor kit but that might be overkill on a street car.

Overkill on my wallet too. The problem with 12" brakes is they don't seem to fit well inside 15" wheels.

Check with True connections, I think their 12" kits may work with 15" wheels.

Originally posted by dennis68:

Actually I prefer the Wilwood/Alcon 6-piston/14" rotor kit but that might be overkill on a street car. Don't we all Dennis ;)

Not to steal this thread, but how's the spindle project coming along?

Joe

Steal away. I'm learning good stuff. Besides, Dennis is driving me to the poor house. :D

Hey Dennis, I looked at that kit. I agree, it looks interesting. One question, what happens when you need pads or rotors in the future? If TCn's is not around, are you scr--'d?

I'm quite sure their kit uses everyday available parts. They will tell exactly what you need. I'm guessing the pads are standard D52's.

Joe, you talking about the new project....it's going. Finally got the numbers I would like to see finalized. If I can pull these numbers off without going broke paying for one-off spindles I WILL have the best handling A body on the planet.

This seems like a good buy at $550.00 http://www.classicperform.com/product-pages/chevelle/6472SWK-D.htm

It appears to have all the OEM style equipment, but with 2" drop spindles.

Check the rotor size...11" is OK. A lot of the drop kits require the use of 10" G body brakes...NO GOOD.

They don't list any specifics of the drop spindle kit on their site http://www.classicperform.com/chevelle.htm

Even if they do use 10" rotors, I would think it would still be better than drums, although obviously not as good as the stock discs.

I would prefer GOOD working drums to 10 G body discs.

Dennis68....Donīt look only at the size of the rotors, much of the performance is in the design of the calipers.
Have you actually driven a chevelle with 2285 combo on it?

I believe Dennis is correct. Every tech write up I've read says rotor size is a critical factor in disc brake performance. Floating (single piston)vs fixed (multi-piston) calipers does not appear to be as critical a factor for a daily or occasional driver. Those factors come into play on road courses and tracks.

However, I have no desire to drop my car 2" so I'm looking at std height disc solutions. It does bother me that CPP doesn't provide more specifics about their products, at least the rotor size. Without that info, why would I buy from them.

These people do:

http://www.ssbrakes.com/products/detail/355/?make=Chevrolet&model=Chevelle&year=1967

Well it looks like i have to buy the 140-7019 kit then?

Brake calipers have very little to do with stopping performance. The rotor acts as a lever that pivots at the spindle pin, the larger the rotor swept area, the longer the lever is that the caliper acts against. Granted the caliper needs to have enough clamping force to slow the rotor but putting bigger calipers on an already properly designed system will not improve stopping performance. My pedigree includes 15 years as a journeyman brake and suspension tech.....I have a prety good understanding of how brakes systems work. A clue as to what affects braking the most might come form the fact that nearly every major brake manufacter offers upgrade kits and in every case it includes larger diameter rotors.

The G body 10" brakes are not even optimum for that platform, they would perform miserably on an A body.

Call Wilwood, they will have no problem telling you that their "heavyweight" drag kits are not designed for daily street use, and for sure not designed for any kind of auto-x/open track events as you indicate you are looking for by posting over at P-T.

Hey Dennis, while I've got you here, what do you tink about the Edelbrock adjustable upper rear control arms?

Do a search Herb.....We have discussed them at length not long ago. I love them as far as upgrades to the OE design goes.

Dennis,

I'd have to take issue with your statement that calipers have little to do with stopping power. Yes, it's true that a larger diameter rotor offers a bigger lever and thus greater stopping power with same size caliper.

However, a larger caliper, one with more pistons and thus more brake pad area will likewise provide more braking power. It's the same as putting on larger tires for more traction. If you add a six piston caliper you will have more stopping power on the same size rotor. Quite a bit more.


Later...

Wally

Quite a bit more right up until the rotor explodes from the added heat build up from clamping force it wasn't designed for. Calipers should never just be thrown on to a rotor, 1st rotor size is determined then a caliper is matched to the rotor followed by a master cylinder that has the correct amount of fluid displacement vs. pedal stroke and effort.

It's not as simple as to just say adding bigger calipers will improve stopping performance. Stopping performance is not simply a measure of how short a vehicle will stop from speed but how consistently will it do it and what is the longevity of the parts. Quick stops mean nothing if you experience brake fade during commute conditions or if pads/rotors prematurely fail.

That you would have to dissipate the additional heat is a given. That's the way brakes work. The amount of heat given off is proportional to the amount of stopping force applied. That's the case with any braking system. I also agree that it probably isn't a good idea on stock rotors. It's pretty common practice on wilwood rotors though (most nascar cars are limited on rotor size due to the wheel size) and yes it is as easy as adding a bigger caliper. We've had our wilwood rotors glowing red for 50 laps and they haven't cracked, let alone exploded. Of course they aren't providing optimal stopping power at that point either :) Talk about your brake fade!

Don't get me wrong Dennis I'm not dissing you. I've read a lot of your posts and have gotten a lot of good info. I'm just pointing out this one thing. Just trying to help get the best info out there. You can upgrade calipers and get noticeably better stopping power and still manage the heat issue. Especially on a street car that isn't driven too hard, usually :)

Later...

Wally

OK, I will agree to a point but it's VERY important to point out to our viewers that the Napa or Autozone rotors are NOT going handle that kind of heat. Upgrading calipers is fine as long as the rest of the system can handle it. I tend to shy away from offering advice/opinions that require use of parts not easily obtainable i.e. It takes a lot of work and contacts to get Wilwood rotors adapted to a stock Chevy spindle on a street driver.

You bring up another good point Denny. It would seem that it is difficult but it's just that most people don't know the good sources. Speedway Motors (http://www.speedwaymotors.com) and AFCO Racing (http://www.afcoracing.com) have everything you need to completely redo the suspension on an A-body. This chassis (and the newer metric frames) are used in thousands of IMCA type modifieds and hobby stock classes in circle track racing. These guys have tweaked these suspensions out completely. They've got the bump steer issues worked out, the brakes, all of it. I've raced modifieds and street stocks (crew chief, not driver) for quite a few years and have done quite a bit with these suspensions.

Turning the rotor off of the stock hub or getting aftermarket hubs and putting on a brake hat and rotor along with a caliper bracket adapter is pretty common stuff for impala spindles (pinto spindles are used too along with spindles off of monte carlos and such). We also fix the bump steer by using a different drag link (86-88 IROC Z) and using heim ends as the outside tie rod ends with a bolt through the spindle steering arm to allow adjustability up and down (you have to drill the hole out so it's not tapered). There are also lots of ball joint options to get the right roll center and probably the biggest thing is that AFCO tubular upper A arms are only $45 each, pretty much any length you want. Of course you need different springs with these mods and the car is quite a bit lower when it's done.

Also, you can abuse the stock rotors pretty heavily. We have to use them on the mods and even with stock calipers you can make them work pretty well and they will take a lot of heat but a mod only weighs 2200 - 2400lbs. I'd go aftermarket if I had a choice.

Later...

Wally

Some of us know all about those sources... springs (http://www.jackazzmotorsports.com/images/springs_001.jpg) and steering/suspension (http://www.jackazzmotorsports.com/images/fendoverhaul109e.jpg) . :D

Yeah, the circle track wharehouses have lots to offer including brake kits but most enthusiats want some simple and that they can buy parts for at the local part store.....not wait a week for UPS, good point though.

Yep, that's it. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say....

I really like those ride height adjusters. They're great for that application.

BTW, do you have any more specs on those spindles you're thinking about making? Are you making tubular type spindles like a late model?

Wally

Have not decided between modular units or not. I would prefer to be able to change steering arms at will but price of machine labor will dictate ultimate construction.

I would like al. but that is probably going to be to pricey, so steel it is. No cast spindles for me, seen enough of them break/bend/othrewise destroyed. Give me until next month(Feb) and I will have all the deatils.

Sorry to just pop in here, but Denny I really like your Vette brake swap and would like to talk to you more about it when I am ready. I don't live to far from you, maybe one day I can shoot over and check out the swap in person.

BTW, do these brakes require larger than 15" wheels?

Yep, Craig they require 17". Even some 17's will require minor some clearance work to fit.

Shoot me an email and I'll give you my cell. I'm almost always around.

Originally posted by THORSS70:
Sorry to just pop in here, but Denny I really like your Vette brake swap...

BTW, do these brakes require larger than 15" wheels? Oh no...another one suckered in ;)

Craig,
You can also check out my website to answer some of your questions on the swap.

Dennis has been very helpful with the swap and getting it done 'just right' graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Joe

Oh boy, you 2 are definately sucking this A-body owner in on this swap.
The wife keeps pestering me to upgrade the brakes/suspension on the old beast and this will fit the bill nicely. I am one for the 'alternative' budget route, and this is definitly it.

OK, I see Joe is using stock upper a arms, is this swap you did with the B-body spindles or is this with the stock A-body? I also see Denny's car with tubular uppers, I would think that would be the way to go but is more expensive. The tubular uppsers is most likely the route I will be taking and want to make the best choice here.

17 inch wheels? Oh boy, time to start looking for some billit rims and tires. This alone will be the most $$ I will be spending here, but man will it look nice :cool:

This is killing me here, I still need my poor truck running and driving to tongue.gif

Stock uppers will work fine. I am using tubular uppers for a different reason (added negative camber and positive caster).

The 13" C5 swap is probably the single best brake upgrade out there, Baer's track series is the exact same thing and even the Wilwood high end 4-piston kit is barely better. When you get into the 14" Alcon kits...well that's another story and over 2500 for front's alone.

Craig, I have some extra C5 rotors laying around too to help save a buck or 2. You're welcome to them. Also, check the Centerline "deals" section of their website...they have nice looking 17" wheels for around 600/set.

So one can use the stock uppers with the B-body spindle? I thought a longer arm was needed, or an offset mount/arm was needed. I don't mind spending the extra cash to get uppers, what is an ideal arm to run?

Also, Denny I will be calling or mailing you when the time comes for this swap, which if nothing else weird comes up will be this month. Thanks so much for the help.

Now to plan the rear disk, or stay with drums...

If you want the best buy a pair of G.W. I won't spent that kind of coin on tube arms but they are pretty and will last forever.

Again, stockers will work, depending on how much it's lowered will determine how thick of a shim pack you will need....more lowered, less shims.

Give a shout when you are ready.

Originally posted by THORSS70:

Now to plan the rear disk, or stay with drums... Craig,
You can also take a look at my webpage for some rear disc ideas.

I would personally run the LS1 rear disc setup. You can get brand new parts from GM and slap them on the chevelle for a lot cheaper than what the parts houses charge for their kits.

My webpage has the part numbers.

Joe

I will plan on lowering the car a bit, right now it's in the air with stock replacememnt BB springs. I would like to buy some lowering springs, as Denny said even a couple of inches will help with the shim pack when I need to get it aligned. Don't know what brand yet, I imagine there are many to chose from on the market. The only problem I see is my 3.5 inch header collectors hang low, I will scrape now on occasion over speed bumps on the rebound.

LS1 rear brakes? Nice, I will brouse your excellent website, great work. Both of you have very helpful sites, thanks very much for the detailed info smile.gif

BTW, I do have a friend with a cnc machine, is there any blueprints I can access on this caliper bracket, or I can obtain one from one of you two?

Joe is the master with the brackets, he can set you up very reasonably....probably less than you could make them yourself.

Awesome, I will ask him about those brackets. Also, am interested in the LS1 rear disks, wonder if I can locate a donor car in a junk yard?

You 2 have me motivated, I am eyeballing the Budnik Famoso 17 inch wheels, now I am in deep ;)

The wreckers know about the LS1 rear swap and they price accordingly. You will find that most will not seperate peices.....all or nothing. Ebay has some complete kits once in a while, usually go for around 250.00 or so.

Craig,
www.car-parts.com (http://www.car-parts.com) sometimes comes in handy for finding 'yards online with the parts you need.

I saw last week a used LS1 rear disc setup with a buy it now for $200...so keep your eyes open.

Also, rock auto ( www.rockauto.com (http://www.rockauto.com) ) has rotors for the C5 that go as low as $16 a rotor. Pretty cheap.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Joe

Fat fingers!! graemlins/angry.gif

Joe

Well shoot, I will try the local yards, you never know? If not a GM salvage yard in Sacramento will have what I need, I have had decent luck with them in the past.

The only thing scaring me away from this is the cost for some decent billit rims :eek: I will be spending $1600 JUST for wheels if this goes down. Well, for the wheels I really want to run anyway.

The brakes will be the easy part, I may have to break up the cost of the wheels/tires into a few budget periods. The car is so infrequently driven, it does not really matter ;)

Hey Craig....how about running some 17" rally's for the time being. You can always keep a couple around to mount slicks on after you buy what what you really want.

Hi guys, hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I want to put 13" brakes and tall spindles on my 68 SS. I have searched old forum posts both on this site and the protouring site, but can't seem to find a clearcut direction to go. I cannot use the C5 conversion due to the American Eagle 17" 211 rims that I have. I printed out templates from Baer and Touring Classic's websites. The Baer 13" Track system will work but is somewhat pricey. The Touring Classic Hybrid (C4 rotor/C5 caliper)kit will just barely fit but uses the stock spindle and hub. It looks to me that the Baer system is a C4 Corvette rotor and caliper with the caliper machined off with the Baer logo added.
Since Baer offers their track system with the tall spindles, my question is: has anybody out there used the C4 rotor/caliper on tall spindles?What type of bracketry does it require?
Joe and Dennis, I haved gained a lot of info from your posts and websites, thanks.

Cheers
Steve

Yeah, quite a few guys are running C4 H/D rotors with C5 calipers. Not sure if anybody besides Touringclassics is doing the bracketry, I am pretty sure they have the conversion brackets for tall spindles.

heres my C5 conversion webpage;
http://geocities.com/codybouc/caliperpage.html

my centerline 17" thrusters wouldn't fit with teh C5 calipers......So i got 19's!!

Dennis/Joe/anybody...

Whats your opinion on the "circle-track" style adjustable upper A-arms... Using the tall spindles...

With my BB and headers, it would be nice to have NO shims at all... About 1/2" to 3/4" with the stock arms, but the arms have "clearanced" the headers as needed...

You don't mean like these (http://www.jackazzmotorsports.com/images/fendoverhaul109b.jpg) or maybe like these (http://www.jackazzmotorsports.com/images/fendoverhaul109e.jpg) . You are talking about the Pole Position arms correct. Great idea. I think they are a great alternative. You will never find 400 control arms on my car or one I spec parts for.

I don't think less of GW or DSE or Spartan or [insert supplier here] for charging that outrageous amount of money for very basic parts that anybody with access to a MIG could build on their own, I just won't use the parts.

The circle track arms built by any number of suppliers are steel bushed so there is some maintenance and the possibility of having to replace them 10 years down the road. I can live with that, especially for the handling improvements of having solid bushed arms. :D

I would recommend the pole position.

Though I have to admit, I have never used these arms. But from looking at the $$$ for the alternatives I would go that way with the next swap.

Or if I really wanted to get off my duff and do something I would make my own. We'll see if that happens later on down the road ;)

Joe

Dennis,

Any potential issues with alignment shops and those "Pole Position" type arms? I just picture the local shops refusing to align my car because they don't know how to adjust it, or taking along time and charging (though it seems to be a straight forward adjustment to me)...

The High dollar parts look nice, but I am in a severe budget crisis, and with wheels/tires/brakes and control arms, etc, every bit helps (especially since it all has to be done at the same time)...

Not that I procrastinate :rolleyes: ...

I think I'll be ordering the Pole Positions arms in about a week :cool:

Actually most will be very pleased with how easy they are to adjust compared to shims. Any front-end tech worth his ASE patch will figure out how to align it in about 30seconds.

Is there a good price on the pole postion arms compared to the alternatives? And or quality/durability issues?

No durability issues and PP's site sells them direct for 189.00/pair I think. Marcus at SC&C also sells them.

I recall from last year (2003 or 2004), that Pole Position might have a 10% Team Chevelle/Chevelles.com discount... I think Pete (FO_FDYFO bought these a while back)...

If not Craig, let me know when you are ready to order and I'll see where I am at... Someday I will again have time to work on the Chevelles...

My question on the Pole Position adjustables ia what length "arms" to buy. If someone could measure they're GW/Spartan/whatever tubular "tall spindle" UCAs, we'd have an idea of the range we need. Measurements from center of the pivot bushing to the ball-joint would get us in the ball park, though a measurement from mounting surface of the pivotshaft to center of the ball-joint, plus offset of the ball-joint from the center-line of the pivot shaft would be more precise for those building their own.
I though I had the info somewhere, but I can't find it.

Oop, found it.
I saw it on Pete Lohr's (FO_FDYFO) site: http://home.comcast.net/~petelohr/einstyn1/einstyn-09.htm
He used PP arms with 5" and 6" adjusters.

When I look up C4 or C5 parts online at Kragen or Rock Auto etc., they ask/list the rotors and calipers as Heavy Duty or Standard. What's the difference? I know the C5 rotor was 1.25 and the C4 rotor is 1.10. but what is a HD C4 rotor and a Standard C4 rotor? Both are listed as Raybestos Brutestop parts. (the crossdrilled ones).

Originally posted by 1966_L78:
I recall from last year (2003 or 2004), that Pole Position might have a 10% Team Chevelle/Chevelles.com discount... I think Pete (FO_FDYFO bought these a while back)...

If not Craig, let me know when you are ready to order and I'll see where I am at... Someday I will again have time to work on the Chevelles... Anything to save a few bucks is good with me. When I am ready (don't know exactly when) I will ring you up. I expect it to be next month, maybe March if funds are needed elsewhere. I like the PP arms, nice peices for the cash. Either that or just run the stock uppers and lower it a bit.

Scott, C4 rotors are 12" except for the H/D versions which are 13". They are all 1.10" thick.

Denny, I need to ask you about your rear wheels when it comes time to buy mine. I like the 17x11's, need to fit them on my ride...

Craig,

email: denny@onrails dot net

Denny, I e-mailed Centerline and they said those wheels are olny available in a 17x9.5 so I might have to settle for them.

I see that Craig, I must have gotten one of the last sets.

17X9.5 will still allow a nice pair of 285/40R17's out back, that's 11 1/4" of rubber per side.

Denny, if I did go with the 9.5's, to keep the wheel and tire towards the outside of the quarter wonder (just for looks) if I should go with a 5" offset instead of a 5.5? Or should I say a 5.25" instead.

Oh, also since we are on the subject of brakes. I was always under the assumption that one really did not need rear disk brakes for an efficient street oriented ride. I was going to origionally install the 11 inch drums in the rear, but the disks do look better than drums through nice 17 inch wheels smile.gif The 11 inch drums would seem sufficient to me :confused:

Yeah Craig, 5" b/s should work and look great.

11" drums will be more than adequete unless you want the discs for the "cool" factor.

Well, I am trying to budget this thing together so maybe I will wait on the rear disks until I see a 'need' for them. Do ElCaminos run the 11 rear, or do I need to go to the B bodies for this upgrade? Also, if you know can I get aluminum drums or am I going to use the iron?

When the time comes for the wheels, I will order the 17x8 and 17x9.5 in the 5 inch offset for the deeper rear dish look. Do I have to run a special offset for the front as well because of the B body spindles?

75 to 77 Monte Carlo had 11" rear brakes. Haven't seen any 11" aluminum Chevy drums though.

Originally posted by dennis68:
Check with True connections, I think their 12" kits may work with 15" wheels. Yes! This kit will fit 15" wheels. I have them behind a set of 15" Rally's.

Speak with Dick at True Connections (http://www.true-connections.com) I seem to remember him saying that he was able to get the non-drop spindle versions behind some 14" wheels by machining some boss off the front calipers.

The Drop spindle set up will only fit 15" and up.