Ike
Jul 19th, 03, 12:50 AM
Originally posted 07/11/2003, reposted here w/ updates/edits:
(Edited/supplemented again 07/24/2003)
(and again 07/28/03)
C'mon guys...add to this thread w/ more links/pics and info of finished upgrades. There CAN'T be 'that' many unfinished projects out there...but of course, mine's one of 'em for the time being...
Ok, after a lot of research on my own, reading lots of old posts, and checking up on the latest swaps going around (read 'hours-and-hours’, I’m sharing my info, and my own ‘personal’ conclusions here for all.
Firstly, you have to give credit where credit is due, and those of you know who you are, and are asked to add to this thread to help make the mess of old posts a little easier to decipher for those wishing to make the change to discs. These guys have direct experience, whereas I’m still gaining it. Some of you are guilty of not posting follow-ups until someone asks for info—I’m guilty as well. Being the practical person I am, I’m sure others will appreciate the savings in time this thread should net for you all.
Best disc brake swap for going from drums to discs, and keeping your original wheels (must have 15”, not 14’s)(not to mention least expensive), “for the least $$”:
Follow Global West Suspension’s site for info for parts, and spring for the Upper Tubular A-arms (or don’t—see notes below) they’re worth the improved performance, and you WILL get added stopping power for that beast. You 'can' use OE upper a-arm...just search the threads for the problems/successes encountered.
See links for info at bottom…
Best disc brake swap for those performance-oriented drivers who want an edge, and still want to keep wheel size down to 15” (aftermarket rally’s may not fit—my 15x10’s didn’t):
Corvette C4 rotors on turned-down Camaro disc ‘hubs’, with the Suburban calipers. This is my choice, and will post results and pics after it’s done (late ’03). Thus far appears to be a ~$500 upgrade over my 11” F-body discs.
(I formerly believed the Camaro 1LE brakes to be a good choice, but my research on aluminum multi-piston calipers from the reman market came up w/ poor results.) Feel free to add your .02, but I would recommend (NOT the 1LE) the ‘Suburban caliper/Corvette C4 rotor combo’, primarily due to the added braking from the bigger 3 5/8” Piston (be sure to use the correct MC!!…see links below)
To add Rear Discs to this setup, add the Caddy rear discs for low cost rear discs, and you’re in business. Step up the rears to the ~’94 Camaro PBR calipers/brackets, and you’re one better.
See links at bottom…
FYI, ’88-92 1LE Camaro/Firebird uses the PBR aluminum dual-piston floating caliper. Same setup as some high-priced kits. DO NOT plan on buying these parts complete new FOR THE 1LE SPINDLES from GM w/o wrecking yard spindles/brackets at the very least. Baer and others bought up all the GM caliper basket/brackets, and the LH caliper bracket is NO LONGER AVAILABLE…anywhere. Parts are hard to find. I found out Stainless Steel Brakes has replacement caliper baskets for the PBR's, but what a pain. GM no longer has the original for the LH. Calipers are rebuilt to real poor standards, and 'new' GM's are $300/ea. PBR Calipers for the C5 conversion use different caliper 'baskets' and are 'currently' available.
Best disc brake swap 13" FDB for performance, but plan on buying 17” wheels:
C5 Corvette brake conversion. More involved, but you get 13” rotors. Jury’s still out on the proper MC for this combo, but the links below should provide good information. Rear mod info included as well below.
If you’ve done this swap, post or email me to update this information.
Best discs for the ‘open wallet’:
You all know the brand names. I’m not convinced that the $$ is worth performance over the C5 conversion, but they look trick, and have some damned nice features, if you do that kind of racing. Personally, I’m more impressed by the good looking job of GM components set up right than just what money can buy. However, I do not have a car going to shows w/ discs clearly visible through custom wheels. Bottom line for the performance-minded ‘show & shine’ mechanic…Who wants to wait a week for a part you can’t get at the local parts house the next day?
Kit links: (no particular order or preference...note the GM components pictured...)
http://www.performancesuspension.com/GMMidbrakes.htm
http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/disc-brake-kit-with-drum-brake-spindles_ec-723ack.html
http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/rear_discbrake_conversions.html
http://www.chevelle.danchuk.com/page1029.html
http://magnumforceracing.com/store4/wilwood_disc_brakes.htm
http://www.goracin.com/INDEX/Chevy_Disc_Brake_Kit_6772_Drum_Brake_Camaro_Chevel le_Nova.html
http://www.mpbrakes.com/MP2.HTM
http://www.inlinetube.com/dbrake.htm
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/store/brakes/GM_brake.htm
http://www.baer.com/
http://www.precisionbrakes.com/wilwood_ld_front.html
http://www.superiorspindles.com/chevellewbrake6472.html
http://www.loderparts.com/strange.htm
http://hp.brembo.com/?AID=8053324&PID=1253973
http://www.breathlessperformance.com/NewFiles/97-brakes.asp
http://www.classicperform.com/
My conclusions:
I got the GW Uppers ‘and’ Lower A-arms, tall F-body spindles, single –piston Suburban iron caliper, picked up 2 ’82 Camaro rotors and turned them down for hubs and installed standard 7/16x ___” wheel studs, and 12” ’78 Corvette C3 directional rotors for the front. I’m using the Corvette power-4-wheel-disc MC (1 1/8"), w/ ‘no’ proportioning valve (‘T’-block only), and a Wilwood adjustable valve to dial in the rear bias.
Approx. $500 for disc hardware plus upper/lower a-arms got me there, fyi.
For the rears, I got the ’79 Cadillac Seville rear disc backing plates/mounting bracket/caliper (large backing plates/calipers) cores from a wrecking yard, ordered rebuilt calipers, new ’79 T/A rear rotors, and followed BC’s advice for cables (see post link below in ‘misc.’).
Approx. $700 for disc hardware converted the rear drums to discs, not including suspension upgrades, fyi.
In my quest for brakes, I also ended up with a set of 1LE rotors (new & hi-temp painted), and almost made the mistake of buying everything I needed for the 1LE brakes w/ the PBR calipers, but then I compared pricing, and found the setup above the best option. These 1LE rotors are for sale to someone who’s willing to pay me $50 over the new price for the PITA masking/painting. They have the metric wheel studs, but come with new lug nuts. That’s the way I was going to use ‘em…too much pita to convert to standard studs. On my ‘camaro’ hubs w/ the corvette rotors, I had to convert to standards, as I needed a longer stud, and the longer stud required drilling out the holes anyway, so I put in standards.
Regarding LOKAR E-BRAKE CABLE kit EC-80FU...as of 07/24, I have not installed, but talked to Lokar tech support today, and they tell me that the cable kit I bought for my Lokar e-brake handle is designed to terminate at the Caliper, replacing the caliper e-brake cables (hence the spring on the end). Their site does not specify this (yet) and the kit does not indicate this. I thought the cables would terminate and connect to the cable connector and utilize the stock-style e-brake cables, but that is not the case. In my case I called because the crimp ends on the Lokar cables were 1/2 the size of the OE cables, and would not work on the cable connector, let alone the lever on the caliper for direct connection. Tech support specified the cable ends are the same size as the late model Camaro (ie the '93 rear calipers), and to use a washer for the early model (ie '79 Caddy/ T/A) calipers. I'll post pics and results when things go together. As of right now, it looks like I may not use the OE cables just bought.
As I currently do not have a PB booster, and am looking at new ones, I’m considering going the ‘hydroboost’ route. This is the power-steering-assisted-braking unit off an ’86 1-ton Suburban, which replaces the booster. I’ll advise when I have more information.
Update 07/23/2003: Spoke w/ Gilbert at ABS Power Brake today (featured in Sept. '03 issue of CHP), and decided to get their hydroboost unit less hoses. I did the math, and it made the most sense. I'll keep this updated. Test will be 60-0 when mobile again...
I really want to try the C5 Corvette brakes, but I cannot justify the wheel expense at this time…something to consider.
If you wish to go STEP-BY-STEP, the best start is getting the GW or Hotchkis Tubular upper a-arm, and wrecking yard f-body spindle. This combo allows the most versatility in trying different combos of spindles/rotors/calipers on the front, as the ball joints fit up once you have the proper geometry upper arm/upper ball joint and lower ball joint for the disc brake spindle (see GW's site or search threads). You can collect the parts ‘as-you-go’ to meet budget and keep happy TWF (the ‘wife-factor’), or just order the kit from GW. Be aware that, IF you DO NOT buy an aftermarket UPPER A-ARM, you’ll use LOTS of shims on a stock frame. Be aware also that IF you DO NOT buy an aftermarket LOWER A-ARM, you must use a Camaro Lower Ball Joint, it’s body turned down to spec (see links). These ball joints can be purchased turned, but I do not have that research, as that is not what I did. FYI, I had my front lower a-arms box-welded, as well as the rear lowers, and cracks developed in ALL of ‘em under the stresses of hard driving. Hence, my long-term ‘planned’ purchase of the GW lower fronts and rears.
FYI, I am a strong advocate of the tall F-body spindle, as the performance improvement in handling is night and day. Thus, all info here is pretty much geared to such a swap, rather than to stock spindles, except where noted (when that info comes available).
My post is not going into costs on every option on purpose. Lots of variables…just plan on spending up to $500 on good parts for the 1st and 2nd option NOT INCLUDING tubular upper a-arms (add ~$4-500). A used spindle off one of the donor cars (see link for applications) will run about $50. Stock Camaro calipers are cheap, around $25. I recall the front hoses ran about $20/side. ALL PARTS-HOUSE PARTS, of course, so everything is easy to acquire. Of course, plan on new bearings/races, wheel studs/lugs, spindle hardware kit and dust cover. Once you've made the initial investment in setting up for the F-body spindles, it gets cheaper every upgrade. You can save $$ to halve that if you find good/used rotors to turn, and rebuild your calipers. No matter what I did, I couldn’t get my $$ for the rear upgrade to 11” discs below $500, not including the core assy’s I got for all the hardware and brackets that don’t come with the new calipers and cables.
Hopefully there'll be posts in this thread of 'successful' combos to compare parts/results. I don’t have to tell many of you that you should never scrimp on ‘used’ parts on your brakes. My position is this: If you can afford a dollar improvement in ‘go-fast’ parts, you can justify a quarter in improved stopping---or don’t. Just don’t ask me to ‘co-pilot/navigate’
My parts Costs to-date (a/o 07/18/2003):
(*note: p/n’s are from their respective part’s houses, where noted, and NOT GM p/n’s)
FRONT DISC BRAKES
*Spindles ’82 Cadillac Fleetwood (large .850 outer bearing) $50/pair (wrecking yard)
*Rotors ’78 Corvette C3 directional, PowerSlot PSL8210/PSR8210 $123.980/ea (Car Quest)
*Hubs, ’82 Camaro front rotor $5.00/ea (wrecking yard)
*Hot tank old grease $20.00
*Machine shop labor to turn off rotor $________
*Machine shop labor for sized holes f/ new wheel studs $________
*Install new wheel studs $________
*Calipers ’82 Suburban, ¾ ton, JD7 option, reman. 16-4122/16-4123 $46.03/ea (Car Quest)
**price is ‘loaded’, w/ pads, and new caliper hardware
**note—cores are worth $33—add that if you forgot to grab ‘em)
*Wheel Studs 7/16”x ____”, x10 p/n ____________ $______ (Car Quest)
*Lug Nuts 7/16” x10 $_______ (Car Quest)
*Front Wheel Bearings ’82 Camaro app. $23.00/complete (Autozone)
*Front Wheel Seal '82 Camaro app. p/n SLS 8871 ~$4/set of 2 (Autozone)
*Front Dust Covers “ “ $6/for 2 (Autozone)
*Spindle Hardware kit (nut, washer, cotter pin) $2.99/set of 2 (Autozone)
*Master Cylinder, 1 1/8” bore, ’76 Corvette app. 4-wheel DB NM1372 $88.99 (Autozone)
*Front Brake Hoses '69 Chevelle front disc application P/n 88466 $12.99 ea. (Autozone)
**uses ___mm Banjo Bolt, and matched copper gaskets each side, 2 bolts, 4 gaskets
*Banjo Bolt, ___ mm, p/n _____ //(need 4x copper gaskets) $_____//$
*Misc. hardware f/ brackets/axle mount/dust shield ~$5.00
*Hydroboost (no hoses, w/ brackets) $475.00 (ABS Power Brakes)
*Hoses (f/ hydroboost) $______
(complete set, including fittings, rod, custom length and ends for my PS box/pump and unit) (A1 Hose & Coupling assembled)
Rear Disc Brakes
*Rear Brakes, ’79 Cadillac Seville, used $175.00/set (wrecking yard)
**included backing plates, caliper cores (worth $30/ea), caliper hardware (did not come w/ new calipers), e-brake cable hardware (did not come w/ new e-brake cables), dust shield
*Rotors, ’79 T/A (5x4 ¾” bolt pattern) new p/n 5560 or 55008 $59.99/ea (Autozone)
*Calipers, rear, reman. ’79 T/A, P/n C250 (L), C251 (R) ('small' calipers)$105.99/ea (Autozone)
*Brake pads '79 T/A, P/n FRI BD154 $17.05/set (Car Quest)
*Bolt, guide $6.99/set (Autozone)
*Bolt, banjo p/n 82699 $4.99/ea (Napa)
*Misc. hardware f/ brackets/axle mount/dust shield ~$5.00
*Cable, drvr. P/n 3236 (old # 3095) ~31” sleeve/~41” cable (EIS) $26.73 (Car Quest/Napa)
*Cable, pass. P/n 3219 ~37” sleeve/~64” cable (EIS) $26.45 (Car Quest/Napa)
*Lokar E-brake cable kit, universal EC-80FU $87.99 (Summit)
**note: eliminates need for intermediate cable, and ‘rubbing’ cable system
(see notes on the Lokar cable installation for my rig…helpful info)
Extras!!
*GW Upper Tubular A-arm kit, w/ offset shafts/hardware $429.00/set (Global West)
*GW Lower Tubular A-arm kit, w/ Delalum bushings, $699.00/set (Global West)
spherical sway bar mounts
*POR15 SemiGloss paint $89.00/gal.
*POR15, hi-solid, hi-temp silver paint (f/ calipers/rotors) $25.00/pint
*GW Lower Rear trailing arms, w/ spherical bearings, delulum bushings $329.00/set (Global West)
*Edelbrock Upper Adjustable trailing arms $206.39 (Summit)
*Edelbrock Anti-hop bars $119.95 (Summit)
Total? Hell, I don’t wanna know. I ‘do’ know that I didn’t blow 10G’s on depreciation the last 20 years. I will eventually figure out the percentage of funds I spent on upgrading my brakes versus speed upgrades, and see if it jives w/ notes earlier.
Most links are referencing Camaro brakes and Camaro sites--necessary evil given that all the upgrades are Camaro/TA/Corvette brakes, so don't raz me. Some info not applicable to A-bodies, but the general stuff on the sites below is good to have.
Links:
12” GM Iron Single Piston Discs Front
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/brakes.htm#Converting_Drums_to_Discs
Tubular Upper/Lower A-arms, Brake kits, Trailing arms:
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20A-BODIES.htm#Front%20Tubular%20Control%20Arm%20Kits% 20for%20Disc%20Brake%20Conversions:
Spindle Applications for Yard search:
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm
12" C3 Corvette Rotor, Suburban Iron Calipers
http://www.buffnet.net/~airrj/CBB%20Construction.html
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=004691
11” GM Iron Single Piston Discs Rear
http://www.usol.com/~okfoz/modification/brakes.htm
http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/RearDiscBrakes.html
http://www.buickperformance.com/reardisc.htm
http://www.buffnet.net/~airrj/Rear%20Brakes.html
12” 1LE Aluminum Dual Piston Front
http://home.cfl.rr.com/shuhy/brakes.htm
http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/brakes2.shtml
12” C4 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Front http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/12_corvette_brakes_on_fgen.htm
http://www.weendoggy.com/brakes.htm
http://www.tccoa.com/articles/brakes/kvr_install/index.shtml
http://www.ws6transam.org/1LEbrake.html#1LErear
12” C4 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Rear http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=205049&page=10
http://www.weendoggy.com/brakes.htm
http://www.ws6transam.org/1LEbrake.html#1LErear
13” C5 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Front
http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/Brakes.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~kiszka/C5_brake_upgrade.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~smckitt/brakes.htm
12” C5 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Rear
Hydro-boost:
http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html
Misc. links f/ info:
Drum to Disc conversion instructions (reference):
http://macc.chevelles.net/drm2dsk.htm
Very well done site on Drum to Disc conversion on Chevy II/Nova (for reference):
http://www.allchevynova.com/nova/discbrake.html
http://diynet.com/DIY/article/0,2058,8466,00.html
http://www.transamgta.com/1LE/
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003058 Thanks Bill, Joe, & Roy) scroll down to see BC’s post on e-brakes cable p/n’s, which are noted in my list above.
Good sites for Parts/Technical reference:
http://chassisengineeringinc.com/brakes.htm
Hotchkis paper on Brake Parts w/ their Upper A-arms:
http://www.hotchkis.net/pdf_files/64-72brake.PDF
Update 07/11/2003: MUST READ paper on Brake Systems and Brake Hydraulics:
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes9_index.htm
Update 07/11/2003:
Info on Master Cylinders:
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/28.html
http://www.mpbrakes.com/MASTERS.htm
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes4_index.htm
Pushrod pics (thanks Joe aka 72SSAbody)
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/MyPushrod.JPG Short
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/DeepPushrodHole.JPG Long
Master Cylinder pics (re deep and shallow) *(thanks again Joe!)
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=006319
Proportioning Valve selection page:
http://www.inlinetube.com/articles/Out%20of%20Proportion.htm
Stainless Steel Lines, Cables, Boosters, Hardware:
http://www.classictube.com/frames/4/index.html
http://www.finelinesinc.com/
http://www.inlinetube.com/
http://www.brakeboosters.com/
PowerSlot Rotors:
http://www.powerslot.com/
http://www.raceshopper.com/powerslot_price_list.shtml
(above, see PSL8210/PSR8210 for '82 Corvette C3 12" FDB application)
Update 07/11/2003: Good info on tools and 'project' (ignore the F100 references)
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/plumbingbrakes/plumbingdiscbrakes.html
Update 07/23/2003: Member projects for reference
(save a little searching)
C4 12" discs (thanks 72SSAbody and Enganeer)
http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=006411
C5 13" discs (thanks 72SSAbody, 69boo307, Hot66ss)
http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=006426
I'll post my own 'list' of parts and frustrations when things get finalized. My rig's getting frame off resto and won't be mobile for a few months minimum.
Fyi, this post will be continously updated as more info/links/progress comes along...so check back for dated updates as they're edited. I personally have wasted too much time on the computer searching threads and reading repeating questions and answers. Help out, guys. Make this thread the 'bible' to disc installations
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Edited/supplemented again 07/24/2003)
(and again 07/28/03)
C'mon guys...add to this thread w/ more links/pics and info of finished upgrades. There CAN'T be 'that' many unfinished projects out there...but of course, mine's one of 'em for the time being...
Ok, after a lot of research on my own, reading lots of old posts, and checking up on the latest swaps going around (read 'hours-and-hours’, I’m sharing my info, and my own ‘personal’ conclusions here for all.
Firstly, you have to give credit where credit is due, and those of you know who you are, and are asked to add to this thread to help make the mess of old posts a little easier to decipher for those wishing to make the change to discs. These guys have direct experience, whereas I’m still gaining it. Some of you are guilty of not posting follow-ups until someone asks for info—I’m guilty as well. Being the practical person I am, I’m sure others will appreciate the savings in time this thread should net for you all.
Best disc brake swap for going from drums to discs, and keeping your original wheels (must have 15”, not 14’s)(not to mention least expensive), “for the least $$”:
Follow Global West Suspension’s site for info for parts, and spring for the Upper Tubular A-arms (or don’t—see notes below) they’re worth the improved performance, and you WILL get added stopping power for that beast. You 'can' use OE upper a-arm...just search the threads for the problems/successes encountered.
See links for info at bottom…
Best disc brake swap for those performance-oriented drivers who want an edge, and still want to keep wheel size down to 15” (aftermarket rally’s may not fit—my 15x10’s didn’t):
Corvette C4 rotors on turned-down Camaro disc ‘hubs’, with the Suburban calipers. This is my choice, and will post results and pics after it’s done (late ’03). Thus far appears to be a ~$500 upgrade over my 11” F-body discs.
(I formerly believed the Camaro 1LE brakes to be a good choice, but my research on aluminum multi-piston calipers from the reman market came up w/ poor results.) Feel free to add your .02, but I would recommend (NOT the 1LE) the ‘Suburban caliper/Corvette C4 rotor combo’, primarily due to the added braking from the bigger 3 5/8” Piston (be sure to use the correct MC!!…see links below)
To add Rear Discs to this setup, add the Caddy rear discs for low cost rear discs, and you’re in business. Step up the rears to the ~’94 Camaro PBR calipers/brackets, and you’re one better.
See links at bottom…
FYI, ’88-92 1LE Camaro/Firebird uses the PBR aluminum dual-piston floating caliper. Same setup as some high-priced kits. DO NOT plan on buying these parts complete new FOR THE 1LE SPINDLES from GM w/o wrecking yard spindles/brackets at the very least. Baer and others bought up all the GM caliper basket/brackets, and the LH caliper bracket is NO LONGER AVAILABLE…anywhere. Parts are hard to find. I found out Stainless Steel Brakes has replacement caliper baskets for the PBR's, but what a pain. GM no longer has the original for the LH. Calipers are rebuilt to real poor standards, and 'new' GM's are $300/ea. PBR Calipers for the C5 conversion use different caliper 'baskets' and are 'currently' available.
Best disc brake swap 13" FDB for performance, but plan on buying 17” wheels:
C5 Corvette brake conversion. More involved, but you get 13” rotors. Jury’s still out on the proper MC for this combo, but the links below should provide good information. Rear mod info included as well below.
If you’ve done this swap, post or email me to update this information.
Best discs for the ‘open wallet’:
You all know the brand names. I’m not convinced that the $$ is worth performance over the C5 conversion, but they look trick, and have some damned nice features, if you do that kind of racing. Personally, I’m more impressed by the good looking job of GM components set up right than just what money can buy. However, I do not have a car going to shows w/ discs clearly visible through custom wheels. Bottom line for the performance-minded ‘show & shine’ mechanic…Who wants to wait a week for a part you can’t get at the local parts house the next day?
Kit links: (no particular order or preference...note the GM components pictured...)
http://www.performancesuspension.com/GMMidbrakes.htm
http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/disc-brake-kit-with-drum-brake-spindles_ec-723ack.html
http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/rear_discbrake_conversions.html
http://www.chevelle.danchuk.com/page1029.html
http://magnumforceracing.com/store4/wilwood_disc_brakes.htm
http://www.goracin.com/INDEX/Chevy_Disc_Brake_Kit_6772_Drum_Brake_Camaro_Chevel le_Nova.html
http://www.mpbrakes.com/MP2.HTM
http://www.inlinetube.com/dbrake.htm
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/store/brakes/GM_brake.htm
http://www.baer.com/
http://www.precisionbrakes.com/wilwood_ld_front.html
http://www.superiorspindles.com/chevellewbrake6472.html
http://www.loderparts.com/strange.htm
http://hp.brembo.com/?AID=8053324&PID=1253973
http://www.breathlessperformance.com/NewFiles/97-brakes.asp
http://www.classicperform.com/
My conclusions:
I got the GW Uppers ‘and’ Lower A-arms, tall F-body spindles, single –piston Suburban iron caliper, picked up 2 ’82 Camaro rotors and turned them down for hubs and installed standard 7/16x ___” wheel studs, and 12” ’78 Corvette C3 directional rotors for the front. I’m using the Corvette power-4-wheel-disc MC (1 1/8"), w/ ‘no’ proportioning valve (‘T’-block only), and a Wilwood adjustable valve to dial in the rear bias.
Approx. $500 for disc hardware plus upper/lower a-arms got me there, fyi.
For the rears, I got the ’79 Cadillac Seville rear disc backing plates/mounting bracket/caliper (large backing plates/calipers) cores from a wrecking yard, ordered rebuilt calipers, new ’79 T/A rear rotors, and followed BC’s advice for cables (see post link below in ‘misc.’).
Approx. $700 for disc hardware converted the rear drums to discs, not including suspension upgrades, fyi.
In my quest for brakes, I also ended up with a set of 1LE rotors (new & hi-temp painted), and almost made the mistake of buying everything I needed for the 1LE brakes w/ the PBR calipers, but then I compared pricing, and found the setup above the best option. These 1LE rotors are for sale to someone who’s willing to pay me $50 over the new price for the PITA masking/painting. They have the metric wheel studs, but come with new lug nuts. That’s the way I was going to use ‘em…too much pita to convert to standard studs. On my ‘camaro’ hubs w/ the corvette rotors, I had to convert to standards, as I needed a longer stud, and the longer stud required drilling out the holes anyway, so I put in standards.
Regarding LOKAR E-BRAKE CABLE kit EC-80FU...as of 07/24, I have not installed, but talked to Lokar tech support today, and they tell me that the cable kit I bought for my Lokar e-brake handle is designed to terminate at the Caliper, replacing the caliper e-brake cables (hence the spring on the end). Their site does not specify this (yet) and the kit does not indicate this. I thought the cables would terminate and connect to the cable connector and utilize the stock-style e-brake cables, but that is not the case. In my case I called because the crimp ends on the Lokar cables were 1/2 the size of the OE cables, and would not work on the cable connector, let alone the lever on the caliper for direct connection. Tech support specified the cable ends are the same size as the late model Camaro (ie the '93 rear calipers), and to use a washer for the early model (ie '79 Caddy/ T/A) calipers. I'll post pics and results when things go together. As of right now, it looks like I may not use the OE cables just bought.
As I currently do not have a PB booster, and am looking at new ones, I’m considering going the ‘hydroboost’ route. This is the power-steering-assisted-braking unit off an ’86 1-ton Suburban, which replaces the booster. I’ll advise when I have more information.
Update 07/23/2003: Spoke w/ Gilbert at ABS Power Brake today (featured in Sept. '03 issue of CHP), and decided to get their hydroboost unit less hoses. I did the math, and it made the most sense. I'll keep this updated. Test will be 60-0 when mobile again...
I really want to try the C5 Corvette brakes, but I cannot justify the wheel expense at this time…something to consider.
If you wish to go STEP-BY-STEP, the best start is getting the GW or Hotchkis Tubular upper a-arm, and wrecking yard f-body spindle. This combo allows the most versatility in trying different combos of spindles/rotors/calipers on the front, as the ball joints fit up once you have the proper geometry upper arm/upper ball joint and lower ball joint for the disc brake spindle (see GW's site or search threads). You can collect the parts ‘as-you-go’ to meet budget and keep happy TWF (the ‘wife-factor’), or just order the kit from GW. Be aware that, IF you DO NOT buy an aftermarket UPPER A-ARM, you’ll use LOTS of shims on a stock frame. Be aware also that IF you DO NOT buy an aftermarket LOWER A-ARM, you must use a Camaro Lower Ball Joint, it’s body turned down to spec (see links). These ball joints can be purchased turned, but I do not have that research, as that is not what I did. FYI, I had my front lower a-arms box-welded, as well as the rear lowers, and cracks developed in ALL of ‘em under the stresses of hard driving. Hence, my long-term ‘planned’ purchase of the GW lower fronts and rears.
FYI, I am a strong advocate of the tall F-body spindle, as the performance improvement in handling is night and day. Thus, all info here is pretty much geared to such a swap, rather than to stock spindles, except where noted (when that info comes available).
My post is not going into costs on every option on purpose. Lots of variables…just plan on spending up to $500 on good parts for the 1st and 2nd option NOT INCLUDING tubular upper a-arms (add ~$4-500). A used spindle off one of the donor cars (see link for applications) will run about $50. Stock Camaro calipers are cheap, around $25. I recall the front hoses ran about $20/side. ALL PARTS-HOUSE PARTS, of course, so everything is easy to acquire. Of course, plan on new bearings/races, wheel studs/lugs, spindle hardware kit and dust cover. Once you've made the initial investment in setting up for the F-body spindles, it gets cheaper every upgrade. You can save $$ to halve that if you find good/used rotors to turn, and rebuild your calipers. No matter what I did, I couldn’t get my $$ for the rear upgrade to 11” discs below $500, not including the core assy’s I got for all the hardware and brackets that don’t come with the new calipers and cables.
Hopefully there'll be posts in this thread of 'successful' combos to compare parts/results. I don’t have to tell many of you that you should never scrimp on ‘used’ parts on your brakes. My position is this: If you can afford a dollar improvement in ‘go-fast’ parts, you can justify a quarter in improved stopping---or don’t. Just don’t ask me to ‘co-pilot/navigate’
My parts Costs to-date (a/o 07/18/2003):
(*note: p/n’s are from their respective part’s houses, where noted, and NOT GM p/n’s)
FRONT DISC BRAKES
*Spindles ’82 Cadillac Fleetwood (large .850 outer bearing) $50/pair (wrecking yard)
*Rotors ’78 Corvette C3 directional, PowerSlot PSL8210/PSR8210 $123.980/ea (Car Quest)
*Hubs, ’82 Camaro front rotor $5.00/ea (wrecking yard)
*Hot tank old grease $20.00
*Machine shop labor to turn off rotor $________
*Machine shop labor for sized holes f/ new wheel studs $________
*Install new wheel studs $________
*Calipers ’82 Suburban, ¾ ton, JD7 option, reman. 16-4122/16-4123 $46.03/ea (Car Quest)
**price is ‘loaded’, w/ pads, and new caliper hardware
**note—cores are worth $33—add that if you forgot to grab ‘em)
*Wheel Studs 7/16”x ____”, x10 p/n ____________ $______ (Car Quest)
*Lug Nuts 7/16” x10 $_______ (Car Quest)
*Front Wheel Bearings ’82 Camaro app. $23.00/complete (Autozone)
*Front Wheel Seal '82 Camaro app. p/n SLS 8871 ~$4/set of 2 (Autozone)
*Front Dust Covers “ “ $6/for 2 (Autozone)
*Spindle Hardware kit (nut, washer, cotter pin) $2.99/set of 2 (Autozone)
*Master Cylinder, 1 1/8” bore, ’76 Corvette app. 4-wheel DB NM1372 $88.99 (Autozone)
*Front Brake Hoses '69 Chevelle front disc application P/n 88466 $12.99 ea. (Autozone)
**uses ___mm Banjo Bolt, and matched copper gaskets each side, 2 bolts, 4 gaskets
*Banjo Bolt, ___ mm, p/n _____ //(need 4x copper gaskets) $_____//$
*Misc. hardware f/ brackets/axle mount/dust shield ~$5.00
*Hydroboost (no hoses, w/ brackets) $475.00 (ABS Power Brakes)
*Hoses (f/ hydroboost) $______
(complete set, including fittings, rod, custom length and ends for my PS box/pump and unit) (A1 Hose & Coupling assembled)
Rear Disc Brakes
*Rear Brakes, ’79 Cadillac Seville, used $175.00/set (wrecking yard)
**included backing plates, caliper cores (worth $30/ea), caliper hardware (did not come w/ new calipers), e-brake cable hardware (did not come w/ new e-brake cables), dust shield
*Rotors, ’79 T/A (5x4 ¾” bolt pattern) new p/n 5560 or 55008 $59.99/ea (Autozone)
*Calipers, rear, reman. ’79 T/A, P/n C250 (L), C251 (R) ('small' calipers)$105.99/ea (Autozone)
*Brake pads '79 T/A, P/n FRI BD154 $17.05/set (Car Quest)
*Bolt, guide $6.99/set (Autozone)
*Bolt, banjo p/n 82699 $4.99/ea (Napa)
*Misc. hardware f/ brackets/axle mount/dust shield ~$5.00
*Cable, drvr. P/n 3236 (old # 3095) ~31” sleeve/~41” cable (EIS) $26.73 (Car Quest/Napa)
*Cable, pass. P/n 3219 ~37” sleeve/~64” cable (EIS) $26.45 (Car Quest/Napa)
*Lokar E-brake cable kit, universal EC-80FU $87.99 (Summit)
**note: eliminates need for intermediate cable, and ‘rubbing’ cable system
(see notes on the Lokar cable installation for my rig…helpful info)
Extras!!
*GW Upper Tubular A-arm kit, w/ offset shafts/hardware $429.00/set (Global West)
*GW Lower Tubular A-arm kit, w/ Delalum bushings, $699.00/set (Global West)
spherical sway bar mounts
*POR15 SemiGloss paint $89.00/gal.
*POR15, hi-solid, hi-temp silver paint (f/ calipers/rotors) $25.00/pint
*GW Lower Rear trailing arms, w/ spherical bearings, delulum bushings $329.00/set (Global West)
*Edelbrock Upper Adjustable trailing arms $206.39 (Summit)
*Edelbrock Anti-hop bars $119.95 (Summit)
Total? Hell, I don’t wanna know. I ‘do’ know that I didn’t blow 10G’s on depreciation the last 20 years. I will eventually figure out the percentage of funds I spent on upgrading my brakes versus speed upgrades, and see if it jives w/ notes earlier.
Most links are referencing Camaro brakes and Camaro sites--necessary evil given that all the upgrades are Camaro/TA/Corvette brakes, so don't raz me. Some info not applicable to A-bodies, but the general stuff on the sites below is good to have.
Links:
12” GM Iron Single Piston Discs Front
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/brakes.htm#Converting_Drums_to_Discs
Tubular Upper/Lower A-arms, Brake kits, Trailing arms:
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20A-BODIES.htm#Front%20Tubular%20Control%20Arm%20Kits% 20for%20Disc%20Brake%20Conversions:
Spindle Applications for Yard search:
http://www.globalwest.net/1964-72%20disc_brake_conversion_informatio.htm
12" C3 Corvette Rotor, Suburban Iron Calipers
http://www.buffnet.net/~airrj/CBB%20Construction.html
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=004691
11” GM Iron Single Piston Discs Rear
http://www.usol.com/~okfoz/modification/brakes.htm
http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/RearDiscBrakes.html
http://www.buickperformance.com/reardisc.htm
http://www.buffnet.net/~airrj/Rear%20Brakes.html
12” 1LE Aluminum Dual Piston Front
http://home.cfl.rr.com/shuhy/brakes.htm
http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/brakes2.shtml
12” C4 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Front http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/12_corvette_brakes_on_fgen.htm
http://www.weendoggy.com/brakes.htm
http://www.tccoa.com/articles/brakes/kvr_install/index.shtml
http://www.ws6transam.org/1LEbrake.html#1LErear
12” C4 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Rear http://www.cardomain.com/member_pages/view_page.pl?page_id=205049&page=10
http://www.weendoggy.com/brakes.htm
http://www.ws6transam.org/1LEbrake.html#1LErear
13” C5 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Front
http://www.geocities.com/diels12000/Brakes.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~kiszka/C5_brake_upgrade.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~smckitt/brakes.htm
12” C5 Aluminum Dual Piston Discs Rear
Hydro-boost:
http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html
Misc. links f/ info:
Drum to Disc conversion instructions (reference):
http://macc.chevelles.net/drm2dsk.htm
Very well done site on Drum to Disc conversion on Chevy II/Nova (for reference):
http://www.allchevynova.com/nova/discbrake.html
http://diynet.com/DIY/article/0,2058,8466,00.html
http://www.transamgta.com/1LE/
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003058 Thanks Bill, Joe, & Roy) scroll down to see BC’s post on e-brakes cable p/n’s, which are noted in my list above.
Good sites for Parts/Technical reference:
http://chassisengineeringinc.com/brakes.htm
Hotchkis paper on Brake Parts w/ their Upper A-arms:
http://www.hotchkis.net/pdf_files/64-72brake.PDF
Update 07/11/2003: MUST READ paper on Brake Systems and Brake Hydraulics:
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes9_index.htm
Update 07/11/2003:
Info on Master Cylinders:
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/dcforum/DCForumID3/28.html
http://www.mpbrakes.com/MASTERS.htm
http://www.hotrodheaven.com/tech/brakes/brakes4_index.htm
Pushrod pics (thanks Joe aka 72SSAbody)
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/MyPushrod.JPG Short
http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/DeepPushrodHole.JPG Long
Master Cylinder pics (re deep and shallow) *(thanks again Joe!)
http://www.chevelles.com/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=006319
Proportioning Valve selection page:
http://www.inlinetube.com/articles/Out%20of%20Proportion.htm
Stainless Steel Lines, Cables, Boosters, Hardware:
http://www.classictube.com/frames/4/index.html
http://www.finelinesinc.com/
http://www.inlinetube.com/
http://www.brakeboosters.com/
PowerSlot Rotors:
http://www.powerslot.com/
http://www.raceshopper.com/powerslot_price_list.shtml
(above, see PSL8210/PSR8210 for '82 Corvette C3 12" FDB application)
Update 07/11/2003: Good info on tools and 'project' (ignore the F100 references)
http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/plumbingbrakes/plumbingdiscbrakes.html
Update 07/23/2003: Member projects for reference
(save a little searching)
C4 12" discs (thanks 72SSAbody and Enganeer)
http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=006411
C5 13" discs (thanks 72SSAbody, 69boo307, Hot66ss)
http://www.chevelles.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=006426
I'll post my own 'list' of parts and frustrations when things get finalized. My rig's getting frame off resto and won't be mobile for a few months minimum.
Fyi, this post will be continously updated as more info/links/progress comes along...so check back for dated updates as they're edited. I personally have wasted too much time on the computer searching threads and reading repeating questions and answers. Help out, guys. Make this thread the 'bible' to disc installations
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