Hi, I am wanting to lower my 66 chevelle. Mainly I want to bring the front down as I do not like the stance of the front end. I am looking for advice on the best way or ways to do this. Thanks in advance for any help.

Hack the springs. A little goes along ways. I know a lot of guys are going to say no-no, but this is how race cars are set. There is also an old wives tale about the hot-knife changing the temper of the springs, you can use the torch. It is in fact a very good idea when you are done to heat the last coil red hot and then flip the spring over and apply pressure to recreate the taper that is suposed to be there (Herb Adams, "Chassis tuning").

In my opinion a gas hatchet is a hack job at best! If you want to do it right, any of the suspension aftermarket companys sell lowering springs and or drop spindle.
Cutting a spring defeats what that spring was designed to do. Buy the correct parts, you will be glad you did.


Rocky

Originally posted by dennis68:
Hack the springs. A little goes along ways. I know a lot of guys are going to say no-no, but this is how race cars are set. There is also an old wives tale about the hot-knife changing the temper of the springs, you can use the torch. It is in fact a very good idea when you are done to heat the last coil red hot and then flip the spring over and apply pressure to recreate the taper that is suposed to be there (Herb Adams, "Chassis tuning"). DO NOT "HACK" the springs! That may be the way race cars are set but you aren't setting a race car! Cutting the coil springs in anyway will alter the geometry of the front suspension which will effect ride, handling and reduce tire wear. If you are going to the trouble of taking the springs out anyway, simply replace them with new lowered springs instead of "Hacked" old springs. And using a torch or any source of heat will alter the coil springs and also effect your front suspension. The absolute correct way is to use lowering spindles! The only thing effected is the stance of the front of your car. Everything else will remain correct.

2" lowering springs on the front, 3" lowering springs in the rear on my 67. Pics on homepage.

Originally posted by rocks66ss:
Cutting a spring defeats what that spring was designed to doRocky Please explain how cutting a coil makes the spring no longer capable of supporting the vehicle or maintaining ride height?
Originally posted by ctheusa:
DO NOT "HACK" the springs! That may be the way race cars are set but you aren't setting a race car! So am I to assume that it is not as critical for a race car to maintain ride height and spring rate over time? I would think that could decide a race.
Originally posted by ctheusa:
Cutting the coil springs in anyway will alter the geometry of the front suspension which will effect ride, handling and reduce tire wear.Any form of ride height adjustment will affect suspension geometry, so. You are correct, in most cases it will affect handling, it will improve it. How is increasing spring rate and reducing ride height going to adversely affect tire wear?
Originally posted by ctheusa:
If you are going to the trouble of taking the springs out anyway, simply replace them with new lowered springs instead of "Hacked" old springs. . I thought changing the spring rate/height would adversely affect ride, handling, and tire wear though?
Originally posted by ctheusa:
The absolute correct way is to use lowering spindles!Lowering spindles, yes they do the job. Usually when someone wants to lower their car it is a combination of handling and looks. “A” bodies are particularly in need of lowered coils when suspension mods are being performed. Anyone who has spent any amount of time on an alignment machine can attest to the fact that these cars need some help in the “shim”: dept. Using a lowered coil spring reduces the amount of shims required to set camber , which makes caster much more adjustable as you do not need to worry about running out of room in the packs.


Before you invest in springs to lower car, you should be aware that your chances of success are much better if you simply cut your existing springs. All springs take a certain amount of permanent set after they are installed.
Springs don’t wear out, so you can save the cost of new springs if you trim your existing ones. Herb Adams “Chassis Engineering”
If you only want to reduce ride height the spring can be shortened without changing its stiffness. Compress the spring slightly more than the amount you would it to drop and place it in the oven at 400 degrees for several minutes. Take it out allow to air cool. Fred Puhn “How to make your car handle”

Obviously the later method is some trial and error yet gives you the results you seek free of charge (assuming you have or can borrow a compressor).

This is an open forum for all to post their views and opinions, however I do take some offence to being so boldly criticized without any tech what so ever to back it up. I have been a suspension expert/tech for over 15 years and specialized for quite sometime in specialty vehicles (old roadsters, hot rods, exotics). It is one thing to question a posting, something else for an amateur with no real experience to quote what he/she has read in magazines or has been told by friends while bench racing. If I am off base, I apologize, but I did check profiles and neither of the 2 individuals in question had any form of auto profession listed.

Off my rant, I lower my cars with coils. Allows me to tailor the height to exactly where I want it and increase spring rate at the same time. I don’t like spindles as they create a problem of lower ball joint mounting interference. I have had to “trim” many a control arm to make spindles work, something wrong with removing material around the ball joint.
No ill feelings-just good tech discussion (waiting for the good response anyway) :D

I appreciate all input. I am new to the hot rod bit so I am learning everything I can now. I am 40yrs old so I am a late starter but I love this stuff. Thanks again for all input.

I don't need to explain anything to anybody who promotes taking a torch to shorten a spring.
And please don't put words where they are not.

"Please explain how cutting a coil makes the spring no longer capable of supporting the vehicle or maintaining ride height?"

These are your words not mine. But everyone has there opinion.


Rocky

Sorry if I took that out of context, you did write "Cutting a spring defeats what that spring was designed to do". Since the spring is designed to support the vehicle I wondered how shortening it would prevent it from doing so.

Please list sources or real experience from where you draw your conclusions.

My point is, The strength of a coil spring depends on many factors .including wire diameter,
coil diameter, number of coil turns, material and height.

You start whacking on a spring, you defeat the purpose of what THAT individual spring was designed to do, So why not put the correct spring or lowering spindle in the first place.

And by the way, oregonchevelle was the person asking for opinions on how to lower his car, I gave mine you gave yours.

"Please list sources or real experience from where you draw your conclusions."

I'm not applying for a job but if you must know!I'm 49 years old and have been working on these cars for almost 35 years. You want to put a gas hacked spring in your RACE car by all means you should do that. I have never built a race car so if putting in torch cut springs is acceptable more power to you.

I on the other hand have built nothing but street cars and feel the correct operation is to put the parts that were designed for this in the first place. Funny thing, I just don't feel safe riding down the road on suspension parts that I feel were compromised.

So if you want to argue with all the people who posted there opinion on if there experience is good enough for you, go right ahead. this is my last comment on this post.


Rocky

Originally posted by rocks66ss:
My point is, The strength of a coil spring depends on many factors .including wire diameter,
coil diameter, number of coil turns, material and height.

You start whacking on a spring, you defeat the purpose of what THAT individual spring was designed to do, So why not put the correct spring or lowering spindle in the first place.

Rocky Wire diameter, number of turns, and free height have nothing to do with spring strength. They do determine spring rate and installed height though.

All a companies who build lowering springs simply cut down the spring roll shorter than stock (not they actually build their own springs). In fact Hotchkis springs have a wind of dead coils so they can trimmed to height.

dennis68, i like your know how on front ends i have a problem with my 65 ss the front end is higher on one side than the other so i thought i would put new springs in but after i put the new springs in it still is higher on one side have you ever seen the time that you need to put differant hight springs in to level the front end? it is about 3/4in higher on one side. if you have a idea please feal free to respond.i also put new springs in the rear to be sure it was not the rear springs causeing the leveling problem.

I have lowered my '95 Chevy truck using 2" drop spindles and 1" drop springs in front and a 4" drop hanger in back. When I started to research this I called at least 8 different companies that had components for lowering a vehicle, from drop springs to drop spindles to a combination of both. I talked to many people at custom car shows and rod runs. I talked to 3 different front end shops. I talked to a very good friend who is in the business of building street rods and lowering vehicles. I posted on many different web bulletin boards on this very subject.
Every last person I talked to over an 18 month time period said the very same thing. Yes, you can lower a vehicle by cutting a spring but you are altering what that part was originally designed to do. One guy even told me I might as well grind my 15 inch rally wheels down to 14's if I wanted to drop the car an inch. Would you alter your wheels? They ALL said that the only correct way to lower a vehicle is with drop spindles. Steering geometry and alignment specs will remain factory, making alignment as easy as a non-lowered vehicle and greatly reducing tire wear. My son lowered his S10 by cutting 1 coil of the spring. The truck rode horribly and was hard to have aligned and ate tires. We put 2" drop spindles and new coil springs in and it drove and rode like new, was easy for the alignment shop to align, and tires wore as they should.
Check with any repuatable supplier of front end lowering components and they will tell you if you want it done right, put drop spindles on it. I talked to Super Bell, PST, Performance Suspension Componenets, Chassis Tech, Truckin' magazine, Super Chevy, Car Craft, Summit, True Connections and many others. Again, they all said the same thing. DON'T hack the springs. You get what you pay for! It is the economical way to lower a vehicle. If you buy the right parts, parts designed and engineered for your particular application, NO parts will have to be modified or cut and will bolt right in.
I don't mean to argue. I am just saying what MANY people have told me and what I have experienced.

Originally posted by john mercer:
dennis68, i like your know how on front ends i have a problem with my 65 ss the front end is higher on one side than the other so i thought i would put new springs in but after i put the new springs in it still is higher on one side have you ever seen the time that you need to put differant hight springs in to level the front end? it is about 3/4in higher on one side. if you have a idea please feal free to respond.i also put new springs in the rear to be sure it was not the rear springs causeing the leveling problem. Check the rear. A lot of people forget that any change in the rear will affect the front also. A 3/4" diff in the front would have to be over an inch in the rear and I would think that would be obvious. I'm sure you have already checked to make sure the front coils are installed correctly with spring tang locked in place.
I don't mean to argue. I am just saying what MANY people have told me and what I have experienced.No argument, it is getting rare to find good, experienced front-end techs. Most guys now just do what the computer tells them to. For real information find a shop that knows how to set a solid axle on an old F@rd street rod, or knows how to set camber/toe on a rear solid axle. Those are the types of techs who actually know something vs. guys who know how to follow instructions.

I'm not even going to get into the maunfacter's and sales persons advise. That's like taking advise on which kind of car to buy from a car salesman.

NO parts will have to be modified or cut and will bolt right in.
Tell the full size Chevy guys that, almost everyone of them is running around missing most of the lower control arm because the wheels rub against it if it's not trimmed a lot. This only applies to drop spindle, not spring/control arm drop.

Dennis the rear is almost level it looks like it is in the front end and yes the springs are indexed correctly.do you know if Chevy ever put spacers under the springs if my memory serves me i think years ago i took out a aluminum piece that was under the spring on one side.i bought the car new so no one has messed with it.i just wonder if Chevy ever used spacers at the factory to level cars front ends.

No, no dealer I have ever worked at has installed any kind of shims to level ride height. I have personally used shims to increase spring rate, but never to change ride height. If you are sure the problem lies in the front springs you could trim the taller spring slightly. A little goes a long way when triming coils, the best way is with a cold saw (chop saw with a metal blade) or a die grinder and cut off wheel.

You may want to loosen all the control arm bolts and retorque everything with full weight on the chassis, possibly the chassis is preloaded.

Dennis,thanks for your input i guess I'll cut the spring to get the right height.

Guys i have to chime in here...cutting the springs with a torch is a no-no, even an un-cooled cut off saw is not a good idea. Doing it these ways increases the rate, changes the metals properties,springs are rated at the original height not a cut height, the steel used in springs is VERY heat sensitive we have used springs that the rate has changed just because that area became over heated during a race. Race springs are put in with complete adjustability (weight jacks) we use them strictly because of the rate. You would be best to buy lowering springs. If anyone whats some credentials i have been building/racing stockcars at every level from a local track to Busch, i hope thats good enough. Ralph

Originally posted by Ralph67:
Guys i have to chime in here...cutting the springs with a torch is a no-no, even an un-cooled cut off saw is not a good idea. Doing it these ways increases the rate, changes the metals properties,springs are rated at the original height not a cut height, the steel used in springs is VERY heat sensitive we have used springs that the rate has changed just because that area became over heated during a race. Race springs are put in with complete adjustability (weight jacks) we use them strictly because of the rate. You would be best to buy lowering springs. If anyone whats some credentials i have been building/racing stockcars at every level from a local track to Busch, i hope thats good enough. Ralph Agreed. I wouldnt bother cutting the springs with a torch and I am not a fan of cutting the springs with a cut off wheel either. I dont like the whole idea of cutting springs to lower a car in the first place.

I went a got a set of springs from Hotchkiss for my 66SS and I like them. Its about a 2 inch drop and looks a rides great.

Chris.

Hey Ralph, the rate change is not due to the heat induced from the cutting process, it is due to the fact that the spring now has fewer active coils.

You guys have got to read more carefully before posting, I know somewhere up there I indicated that Hotchkis actually orders their springs extra "dead coils" at the end for the purpose of trimming for ride height adjustment. Trimming dead coils has no affect on spring rate, only height.

dennis if you re-read i didn't specify the rate change was due to the heat but....as the spring gets shorter due to heat the rate will increase. Dead coils!?<:!"/ sorry never heard of such a thing, any coils added to a spring will effect rate. P.S. i also have an engineering diploma and was taught that fact. One more thing if you are living by the info in a Smith book remember that the info in there is 20 plus years old and while some of it is practicle it does not apply to street suspensions on the whole. Ralph

No, Smiths book is only 12 years old I think and Adams book was 1989 I think. Some of that old tech is true no matter what year it is, especially the engineering in Puhn's book. Most of what I know is practical hands-on. I use the books for refernce to posts a lot, folks respect well known experts more than just some guy on the internet. Dead coils are the winds that actually touch in free form. They have nothing to do with spring rate and are only there for height. Hothckis and AFCO use them for sure, I'm sure others do as well. I suppose they kinda act as a progressive as the the rate gets real high real fast as the coils approach bind. Picture a coil spring with 10 winds and the bottom 2 are completely touching, those 2 coils coils would not get used in the fromula for figuring spring rate as it only factors in active coils-correct? I'll post the actual formula for figuring out spring rate when I get home so you can better see how this works.

I have cut alot of springs over the years and sometimes you get it right but alot of times its too low and theres no turning back. Also you have to be real lucky to get the exact cut on both springs or you will sag to one side.I went through this on my 66 months back and I finally just ordered Hotchkis lowering springs for the front and I used new springs that we ordered for my son's 65 on the rear. I got lucky and got the stance I wanted.

For the street, I don't think cutting the coil springs is necessarily a "really" bad thing to do, but using a torch could be bad... The heat needed to collapse a coil, as well as the cooling method (quench time) can easily affect the metallurgy of the springs. Even if "new" springs are only air cooled from the manufacturing process, additional heating and cooling cycles can affect the spring properties.

The applied heat from a torch will likely be greater and affect more of the spring than the use of a cutoff wheel, where the heat generated will generally be restricted (at least heat great enough to affect the properties) the the very end of the cut off portion, and therefore not significantly affecting the properties of the spring...

When cutting the front springs, be careful and don't cut too much off at once... Neglecting any increase in stiffness (spring rate), a 1-inch reduction in installed height will yield approximately a 2-inch drop, due to the location of the spring between the frame and the balljoint... I think its best to measuer the springs when on the car, figuring a "cut" location to approximately achieve the desired drop, then remove the spring, cut and reinstall...

Dropped springs are great, except often the stock springs have settled over the past 38 years, and therefore even 2" dropped springs might raise the ride height above where your car currently sits...

Originally posted by 1966_L78:
Dropped springs are great, except often the stock springs have settled over the past 38 years, and therefore even 2" dropped springs might raise the ride height above where your car currently sits... Great point Tony. I haddened expanded on that yet, many experts agree that it's better to use the coils you already have as they have already taken set. It would suck to spend 150+ to find out you are taller than before and still have to trim coils to get the stance you wanted.

Yes Tony point taken but, the springs that are 30 some years old have lost the original rate and are now relying on the shocks to help them thats why you get that crappy ride. New springs from old with no other changes always give a superior ride.Dennis as far as the dig "some guy on the net" i believe i stated my back-round quite clearly you on the other hand appear to be able to read well but i'm afraid your car likely rides like a lumber wagon. the Smith book and most of the info inside it is easily 2 decades old maybe more. As far as Hotch. using these dead coils i'm unsure but AFCO gives you a height, rate and dia. choice but no dead coil opption...hmmmmm. Racecars use weightjacks on each coil to raise or lower the frame height not dead coils and we haven't cut a spring in years. these coils if they even exist are just a prop to hold up a car and again you gotta cut them to get your height. Order the springs you need, places like Detroit spring have an in house engineer that will take your exact specs and recommend the proper spring for your application. Ralph

Honestly Ralph, it wasn't a dig. I wasn't even referring to you. The end coils (dead coils) are not an option, that’s just how they are built.

I had stated my experience as well, on page 1 I believe, 15+ years experience as a suspension/brake expert for a variety of organizations and for Chrysler for the last 7 years.

Lumber wagon, no. I do like the term though, I think I'll use it later. In it's current configuration it rides somewhere between a Viper and a shifter cart. When the 3-link is finished and the new build on the front end goes in I'm shooting for more like the shifter cart-800lbs front coils and 175lbs rear coils.

Yes, as of late most cars are using jacks for adjustment. That is not because it is better, just way faster and easy to tune at the track. AFCO springs have many options, height is not one of them. Last I checked you could purchase 8.5" or 9.5" front springs in the 5" or 5.5" configuration, I may be wrong but I doubt it.

Obviously one could use Detroit or Coil Springs specialty for the ultimate tuned spring for your exact spec, but what if your wrong. Then you have a $200 pair of coils that are no better than what you started with.

FYI...Smith's (Carroll, not Steve) book was written in 1984, Puhn's book was 1981 and Adam's book was 1987 (I think).

Shocks dampen wheel movement, they don't have much of an affect on perceived spring rate. Springs can break or sag, they can't wear out. If you measured a new spring at it's OE height and found it's rate you could take that spring 30 years later, shim it to its OE height and it would still be very near dead on its OE rate. Heat also does not change rate.

Rate is a mathematical equation, K=W4th*G/8ND3rd

K=spring rate
W=wire diameter in inches
G=12,000,000 for steel springs
N=number of active coils (free coils+1/2)
D=spring diameter

You can always increase spring rate, never decrease it.

Good discussion, I like the challenge vs. some forums where everybody just calls each other names and nothing technical ever comes out of it. What class are you running now? I'm shooting for AIX next season, if the LS1 is ready, I may even be competitive. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

My bad on the AFCO springs, Tru-coil is the company that has the "extra" material for height trimming.

Ok Dennis no sweat,explain how you shim a spring back to original height with proper coil spacing,shocks dampen agreed but they also are being used to to help when using springs on the light side (speedway cars that seem glued to the ground),those books and the info is 20 years old and much has changed. A Viper and a shifter kart...hard to believe, but i've never seen your car work,as i've driven both an elco that handles that well must be fun.I too currently work for DCX as a millwright and have had some experiance in the Windsor R&D shop. The Detroit springs are $165 and i believe i was told satisfaction guaranteed. Heat itself will change rate as the metal and tensile of the spring is altered with heat. Think of it as a tight muscle that relaxes with a heat pad. After travelling damn near every week our team is currently just hitting some local (within 200 miles) tracks (ovals) as our young families seem to need lots of att. and the dollars to race have scared some awesome sponsers away. We have had great people to deal with through the years (Key Tours, Budweiser, Genuine Draft,and Wagner Brakes) but as of now all the money here in Canada is drying up. the discussion is awesome different points of view are always appreciated! Ralph

NONONONO-I mis-stated, it rides somewhere between a Viper and a shifter cart, I hope to get .97 or so out of it when the dust settles but for now it just handles "well".

Just add shim to the top of the coil, spring spacing isn't important (until bind anyways). The only factors that affect rate for a given spring are wire diameter, coil diameter and number of active coils.

Ralph and Dennis please don't get all sprung out on this subject! :rolleyes:

No not sprung just a good conversation! Did i see you are running a 3 link rear Dennis? If so what are you using for a track bar set-up. Just a straight left to right track bar, j-bar, watts linkage...? I wonder because while some work well on road coarses i was to believe they are to agressive in race form for street use. Don't like the shim use seems to be a PITA for street chassis use. Ralph

Originally posted by dennis68:
Tell the full size Chevy guys that, almost everyone of them is running around missing most of the lower control arm because the wheels rub against it if it's not trimmed a lot. This only applies to drop spindle, not spring/control arm drop. [/QB]
[/QUOTE]
I can certainly agree with that. My 91 Chevy truck has BellTech 2" drop spindles and its lower control arms had to be chopped up for wheel clearance. I've lowered a bunch of cars and trucks & the best method for me has been to use custom lowering springs. Drop spindles also create problems if you use wheels with much over 4" backspacing.
My 69 El Camino has coilovers at all four corners now and these really get the car down.

PHB, L/S frame rail to R/S diff. set at 8" level. I'm not finished yet, still working on the upper link mount to the differential. Since I haven't driven it with the full 3-link/PHB working I can't comment on how it will ride. It was going to be a watts set-up, I still have a few bellcranks I bought for mock-up. Decided packaging on a street car is just not worth it.

Springs don't wear out but they do sag? If they are sagging, they are worn out! Simply replace them! Why screw with 30 or 40 year old springs when brand spankin' new ones are so cheap?

Because we are discussing lowering vehicles, not returning them to OE height. Please read all the discussion to better understand what is being discussed.

BTW, Clint you show off---gotta bring up the coil overs huh? ;)

Way to go Clint i hadn't thought about the a-arm mods. The way those things brake under load it must take alot to beef them up properly...more work Dennis. Its starting to sound like you should just build a purpose built chassis for your 68. all that work when lowering springs take a couple of hours and whammo done! smile.gif Just teasin Dennis nothing beats doing it all yourself by trial and error, i still believe that for most of the members here drop springs installed and ordered properly is the best way to go. Ralph