My uncle is clearing out his junkyard per threats from the EPA. What I am seeing shows there is a LOT of cloning going on. The cowl tag has been removed from a 66 Chevelle, 65 GTO, 70 AAR Cuda and a mustang or two.

He only has 500 cars left out of the original 2,000 that was once there and almost all of the performance stuff was hauled out and crushed in the late 80's. Anything of the performance nature that is left and is in bad shape is getting the cowl tags removed. Why is this not unlawful? Why aren't laws passed that a car's identification numbers must stay with that particular automobile? This has sure opened my eyes as to how bad of a problem this has become. Any performance car that I buy in the future I believe I am going to have to personally know the car from the past. I'm almost afraid to just go out and try to I.D. a car from the info on the body. Thoughts?

There are laws in place for this sort of thing. The question is whether law enforcement cares enough to do something about it, providing they know whats going on in the first place. Most of the time, they have no idea about this sort of thing with much older cars.

As long as classic cars have more popular options and performance packages, there will always be people out there looking to fake a car for profit. Even if said car is too rusty to restore, it still doesnt make it any more honest.

On a Chevelle removing the cowl tag is not illegal. Maybe unethical not illegal. Now removing the vin is not illegal but if you do and install them on another vehicle that is illegal in all states.:yes:

On a Chevelle removing the cowl tag is not illegal.
In Oklahoma it is illegal

Maybe unethical not illegal. Now removing the vin is not illegal but if you do and install them on another vehicle that is illegal in all states.:yes:

It's actually a felony

I had a couple of Chevelles in the 70's, three 70's and a 71. All of them had cowl tags damaged by the rubber bumper on the hood. One even had one of the rivets pulled through the tag due to the rubber bumper dragging across the tag when opening and closing the hood. I am surprised that so many still have cowl tags.

Paul

On a Chevelle removing the cowl tag is not illegal. Maybe unethical not illegal. Now removing the vin is not illegal but if you do and install them on another vehicle that is illegal in all states.:yes:

Actually removing, tampering with or even possessing a VIN tag is a federal offense.

=========

What state are you in Jeff?

On a Chevelle removing the cowl tag is not illegal. In Oklahoma it is illegal. It's actually a felony.

Good thing we're not all in Oklahoma huh?

Dean, I'm in Tennessee.

Shoot, you get out and about listening to people and you hear about VIN tags and Trim Tags getting removed, replaced, and sold all the time.
Makes me sick.
Some guys were talking about it at the post office the other day. I didn't know them. I mentioned that it was illegal to change out VIN tags.
They looked at me like I was stupid. The one guy said, "what world are you living in? It goes on all the time".
Heard the same thing at a cruise in a while back.
I just give up and don't say anything.
Buyer beware. I don't see how anyone could buy and pay a decent price for ANY car without a clear title.

Yep. That deal with the hood bumper obliterating the cowl tags is present on every Chevelle I have owned. Makes one think that GM put very little value on the info on that tag. Too bad.
Can anyone cite that OK law that deals with cowl tags? It seems pointless to me.

The one guy said, "what world are you living in? It goes on all the time".


You should have said "Yep, so does killing, robbery, rape, driving drunk and many other illegal things but that doesn't make it OK.

Just try to get law enforcement to enforce the so called federal law. State, or local too. Ha good luck. The only time they will get involved is on a specific car with you being the legal owner and having proof. Otherwise you are blowing smoke. No body cares to enforce this. If they did VIN tags would be manditorally removed on all scraped vehicles. They are sold on eBay all the time as well as vendors at swapmeets.

Just try to get law enforcement to enforce the so called federal law. State, or local too. Ha good luck.

They are sold on eBay all the time as well as vendors at swapmeets.


I agree 100%.
I have personally seen VIN tags being sold on two different occasions at our local "Classic Car Cruise-In."
A local cop was told about it on one of those occasions, and he essentially said if it didn't involve a stolen car it was none of his concern.

They're for sale on eBay (and elsewhere) often, but I've never heard of a cop being sent to a guy's house to arrest him because of it.

The selling of VIN tags is important to Chevelle aficionados, who imagine that people who sell them, or remove them, will get in serious trouble.

However, to cops in the real world, the selling of 40 year old Chevy VIN tags amounts to tom-foolery that they have neither the time or inclination to involve themselves in.

Regards,
-Greg

On a Chevelle removing the cowl tag is not illegal. Maybe unethical not illegal. Now removing the vin is not illegal but if you do and install them on another vehicle that is illegal in all states.:yes:

Thats my fault. I should have made my post more clear. I was refering to the actual VIN tags. Although OK its illegal to remove the trim tags. I hope other states will catch on to this over time.

All those that don't think this is a big deal are missing the rest of the story.

When a VIN plate or even a Trim Tag are tampered with they call into question the authenticity of the vehicle. I don't care how honest or innocent it was, you can never really know what is the truth about the vehicle once this has been done. Even if the hidden CON VIN match's there is still that lingering question, what else has been done to this car and is it real.

The vehicle is no longer original and if you try to hide the fact you R and R the VIN tag someone will always suspect something dishonest.

All those that don't think this is a big deal are missing the rest of the story.

When a VIN plate or even a Trim Tag are tampered with they call into question the authenticity of the vehicle. I don't care how honest or innocent it was, you can never really know what is the truth about the vehicle once this has been done. Even if the hidden CON VIN match's there is still that lingering question, what else has been done to this car and is it real.

The vehicle is no longer original and if you try to hide the fact you R and R the VIN tag someone will always suspect something dishonest.

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X3

You should have said "Yep, so does killing, robbery, rape, driving drunk and many other illegal things but that doesn't make it OK.

Dean, I did try to discuss the problems that this act causes with these strangers and they looked at me like I was crazy and their response was pretty much that it was so widespread and for so long that they might as well do it also.
$$$$ and flippers are the cause of this.

All those that don't think this is a big deal are missing the rest of the story.

When a VIN plate or even a Trim Tag are tampered with they call into question the authenticity of the vehicle...


Yes, that's all good and fine Mike, and I agree with you 100%.

However, as I've stated, the vast majority of cops don't share your interest and concern.

The vast majority of cops are uninterested, apathetic, and blase' about someone selling a 40 year old Chevy VIN tag at a swap meet or on eBay.

Regards,
-Greg

I know of one case in Kansas that the K.H.P. did something.
I sold a 70 frame to a guy and he wanted to make sure everything was going to be legal so he called the K.H.P. to come and look at it first.

The VIN tag matched the title but didn't match the hidden numbers and neither of the VIN's were on the "hot sheet"

The K.H.P. said you can not get a new VIN tag OR a license tag and you can not sell the car.

He sold it anyway, with the new frame.

When having my car inspected by DMV, they checked that the rivits were not tampered with (on cowl and door jam). I see rose rivits advertized on Ebay. Are they felonious aswell?

Imagine sitting in Levenworth. "what are in for ?" LOL cowel tags! You would be a BITCH in a minuet.LOL.:o

I agree I dont want to pay top dollar for a con job.

Here is a thread on another site about vin tags. Not sure how good the info is.
http://www.classictiger.com/vinopin.html

And here is some stuff from the Feds:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=fcd694a7aaf77e102aab79ece6d296d6&rgn=div8&view=text&node=49:6.1.2.3.31.3.7.4&idno=49

When having my car inspected by DMV, they checked that the rivits were not tampered with (on cowl and door jam). I see rose rivits advertized on Ebay. Are they felonious aswell?

In most states, if not all of them now. Yes it is.

How can one tell if a VIN tag has been R&I. Rivots on my '72 vin tag look like rivots. What should factory rivot heads look like from 1972? My dash pad isn't attached so I'd be more than happy to send a picture. I have no reason to believe it's been changed but I've only owned the car for a year so who knows?

Thanks,
Eric

What should factory rivot heads look like from 1972?

The easiest description is they look like "little sprockets". Not pop rivets.

I see rose rivits advertized on Ebay. Are they felonious aswell?



Sure, technically it's illegal in some states.
But, I've never heard a cop at a swap meet yell..."Hey, freeze. You're under arrest for having a handful of 40 year old Chevy rivets in your pocket."

Lots of things are technically illegal, but people choose to do them anyway.

Speeding is illegal, but many people choose to speed anyway, and it frustrates traffic cops.

Downloading music and movies for free from the internet is illegal, but many people choose to do it anyway, and it frustrates the recording industry and the Motion Picture Association.

Tampering with VIN tags and rivets on 40 year old Chevy's is technically illegal, but lots of people have chosen this particular law for themselves not to abide by, and it frustrates Chevelle aficionados.

Everything is relative.

Regards,
-Greg

How can one tell if a VIN tag has been R&I. Rivots on my '72 vin tag look like rivots. What should factory rivot heads look like from 1972? My dash pad isn't attached so I'd be more than happy to send a picture. I have no reason to believe it's been changed but I've only owned the car for a year so who knows?

Thanks,
Eric

The easiest description is they look like "little sprockets". Not pop rivets.

From the top, they look like a "normal" rivet. From the bottom they have a special shaped head.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_aZniZlzG90Y/SpcktSNODAI/AAAAAAAADSA/wHYPH-LhufQ/s800/IMG_3182.JPG

This is the view looking up from the floorboard to the bottom of the dash where the V.I.N. tag is attached on my 1969 Malibu.

Dan

From the top, they look like a "normal" rivet. From the bottom they have a special shaped head.

I didn't recall they were installed "upside down". I'll be more careful about trusting my memory in the future.

Thanks guys I feel much better. Using a small mirror I could see the tops of the rivots from the bottom and they are not round that's for sure. Weird shape but they match the pictures posted. Thanks